svet.1balinda,
žesto sam se pitao kako pojedini događaji na velikoj sceni utiču na primer
na kurs dolara ili cenu zlata? Sad sam baš u nedoumici zašto je dolar naglo
skočio posle ostavke Ševernadzea nakon očiglednog neslaganja sa vojnim vrhom u
SSSR-u? Nije mi jasno kako takav neugodan korak važne ličnosti u "suprotnom"
bloku uopšte može jačati USA, pa makar to bilo samo poverenje da jedino US može
biti nekakvo ostrvo spasa nakon eventualnog raspada ogromnog carstva kakvo je
SSSR?
Da nije samo reč o decenijskom automatizmu da je sve što nije dobro za jednu
super silu, automatski dobro za drugu? :(
svet.2dveselinovic,
Mislim da se radi upravo o suštini sukoba. Ševarnadze je
mirotvorac, a kada on da ostavku, to znači da je vojska prevladala.
Kada vojska u SSSR-u prevlada, onda i vojska SAD ponovo počinje sa
novim porudžbinama opreme. To dovodi do rasta proizvodnje u sektoru
privrede koja snabdeva vojsku, a to je oko 40% Američke ekonomije,
veća proizvodnja znači i jaču privredu, a jača privreda znači i jači
dolar.
Tragično jednostavno; tragično zato što uvek nekako na kraju
proizađe da ekonomsko blagostanje zahteva rast napetosti u svetu.
32XDVV
svet.3balinda,
>> Tragično jednostavno; tragično zato što uvek nekako
>> na kraju proizađe da ekonomsko blagostanje zahteva
>> rast napetosti u svetu.
Da zaista tako nekako uvek ispadne. :( Veliko hvala na objašnjenju!
svet.4dejanr,
15. se bliži. Šta mislite, šta će biti?
svet.5vkostic,
>> 15. se bliži. Šta mislite, šta će biti?
Ja se nadam da ce biti rata. I to iz prostog razloga sto ce ludi Husein
jos dugo zariti i paliti ako se sada ne smiri. Jos ako se dokopa A
bombe, bice svasta.
Sta bi se delilo u slucaju rata? Husein ce garantovano poslati sve
projektile kojima raspolaza na Izrael. Paranoicni Izraelci bi lako mogli
da mu odgovore sa par atomskih bombi u znak odmazde. Amerima bi onda
ostalo da samo u kratkom roku dovrse posao.
Druga vrlo verovarna i najgora moguca varijanta je se Husein u minut do
dvanest povuce iz skoro celog Kuvajta osim sa naftonosnih polja i par
strateskih ostrva. To je najgora moguca varijanta jer ce onda cela
Americka javnost biti protiv rata. Zasto ratovati za par busotina?
Ako se to dogodi i Husein se izvuce, pa jos kada se za dve-tri godina
dokopa atomskog oruzja, onda ce tek biti sranja. Ako vec treba da bude
atomskih ekspozija, bolje da Izraelci ili Ameri bace jednu bombu na
Bagdad nego da ih ludi Husein baca po celom bliskom istoku.
svet.6dejanr,
>> bolje da Izraelci ili Ameri bace jednu bombu na
>> Bagdad nego da ih ludi Husein baca po celom bliskom istoku.
Samo što bi ta "bombica" izazvala malo zagađenje nafte, a i
do nas bi verovatno stiglo da nas dokosuri posle žernobilja...
svet.7dveselinovic,
Ma kakav žernobilj, dođi ti u Ruzveltovu da vidiš šta je
zagađenje. Ha, prema tome je žernobilj naivan.
Uopšte, Beograd postaje smrtonosan grad.
32XDVV
svet.8acka,
A koji grad danas nije smrtonosan?
Acka
svet.9bojt,
>> A koji grad danas nije smrtonosan?
Pa sad, što se zagadjenosti tiče, Beograd je definitivno
najzagadjeniji grad na svetu (ispitivanja pokazala), i to
2.18 puta zagadjeniji od prvog sledećeg... Pa ti vidi...
svet.10dveselinovic,
Koji grad danas nije smrtonosan?
Bridgewater.
32XDVV
svet.11bojt,
Aziz i Bejker nisu postigli nikakav sporazum u čenevi. Izgleda da
će "ipak" doći do rata... (mada bi pomalo neozbiljno bilo misliti
da neko pokrene silnu vojsku i na sve to spiska preko 30 milijardi
dolara a da na kraju ništa ne učini...)
svet.12lanik,
>> Ja se nadam da ce biti rata.
Apsolutno se slažem! Treba već jednom pokazati tim smrdljivim
arapima šta smeju a šta ne. Za svo ovo odugovlačenje oko napada na
Irak, po meni najveći krivac je mlakonja zvani George Bush... Da je
Ronald Reagan još uvek predsednik USA, rat bi odavno bio završen!
Pozdrav,
Dalibor
--> Join the REVOLUTION... <--
--> Use an ATARI Computer! <--
svet.13balinda,
>> Za svo ovo odugovlačenje oko napada na Irak, po meni najveći
>> krivac je mlakonja zvani George Bush... Da je Ronald Reagan
>> još uvek predsednik USA, rat bi odavno bio završen!
Mislim da ovo nije tačno. (?) Prvo, Reagan nije imao ni jedno *ovako* veliko
iskušenje. Drugo, situacija u svetu se sasvim promenila i zahteva mnogo više
takta od Reganovog doba kada je mnogo jednostavnije bilo vladati jer je
postojao jasan protivnik kao sama slika zla. Danas, u postjaltno vreme, svakom
je političaru na zapadu znatno teže da donese odluku u kojoj treba da ginu
desetine (a možda i stotine?) hiljada mladića. U prvom redu zbog domaćeg javnog
mnjenja koje tamo postoji. (*Takav* teret nemaju diktatorski režimi poput nas
ili Iraka delom i zbog "primitivnosti" naroda.)
Treći, a verovatno PRVI, razlog je potrebna snaga da se to uradi. Bojim se
da bi američko angažovanje moralo dostići angažovanje u Vijetnamu. (?) Nakon
tadašnjeg fijaska, teško je preuzeti takvu odgovornost. Na kraju krajeva, šta
biva sa ugledom i presižom USA u slučaju neuspeha? A šta tek biva sa s'mukom
dostignutim "pravilima igre" na svetskom nivou? `Oće li išta ostati od UN ako
se ovako ponašanje pokaže kao opravdano? Budući da se ovde očigledno misli da
će jedini mogući pobednik biti USA i da Husein nema baš nikakve šanse, red je
da upozorim da to uopšte ne mora tako biti. Nemam nikakvog razloga da branim
Buša, ali zar vam se ne ponekad ne učini da je svemu ovome pristupio sa dosta
razuma? Šta više očekivati od (formalno!) najmoćnijeg čoveka na svetu?
I četvrti razlog koji mi pada na pamet za ovo predugo odlaganje rata je s'
jedne strane čekanje boljih vremenskih prilika (što već polako i protiče), s'
druge, pridobijanje svetskog javnog mnjenja (i to je postignuto) i možda kao
najvažnije, činjenica da 30 miliona $, koliko košta svaki dan američkog
angažmana, plaća se iz velikih kuvajtskih i delom saudijskih rezervi.
Amerikanci bi trebalo da polože živote a to DANAS nije ni malo lako.
No, uprkos svemu, rat mi se čini neminovnim, te time ne vidim da smo bilo
šta izgubili? I mene "plaši" mogućnost da Sadam Husein u bilo kakvom rasplpetu
"preživi", ne njega radi nego radi dokaza svakom Sotoni da se neka pravila
moraju poštovati.
svet.14georges,
*********************************************************************
Neko ovde zapisa: "smrdljivi Arapi". I pored sve moje toleran-
tnosti, ne mogu da zaobidjem ovakvu jednostranu karakterizaciju saro-
likog arapsog sveta. Znacilo bi da se nasa slepoca uvecava njihovom
brojnoscu, ili: sto Arapi smrdljiviji, to ih mi manje vidimo. I zato
treba da im pokazemo! Zaista? Hoce li se gospodin koji je ovo zapisao
pridruziti multinacionalnim snagama? Hoce li svoju dragocenu krv sta-
viti na raspolaganje Busu i kompaniji? Ne, nego ce iz svoje fotelje
mirno pratiti izvestaje, sabirati zrtve navijajuci za svoje pulene.
Razumem da je iz te pozicije lako nekoga okarakterisati "smrdljivim".
Zar su Sloveni mirisljaviji od Arapa? Zar je Zlo samo Njihovo a Dobro
samo Nase? Kako to da su Evropljani i Amerikanci toliki Andjeli? Pa
Nemacka se tek prosle godine ujedinila...
Ako se u Zalivu bude ratovalo, bice to zbog nafte, ne zbog genetski
predodredjene smrdljivosti jednih i mirisljavosti drugih.
GEORGES de YU
=============
*********************************************************************
svet.15dveselinovic,
Ne sporim da će rat biti I zbog nafte, ali zar SAMO zbog nafte?
Ako se Sadamu prećuti ovo, to je onda otvoren poziv velikima da
gutaju male, a svet će sedeti i mirno to gledati. Valjda sve dotle
dok današnji "veliki" ne postanu stvarno VELIKI, a onda neće biti ni
malo lako izaći sa njima na kraj.
Uostalom, cela stvar je već odavno poprimila sve osobine verskog
sukoba, jer Iran će zaratiti bok uz bok sa dojučerašnjim
neprijateljem zbog Islama. U takvoj situaciji, ne vidim da iko ima
ili može imati izbora, jer Islam već godinama pokazuje sve veći
stepen militantnosti. Istina, mogli bi se i izolovati, odnosno
getoizirati, ali Zapad ne želi da se odrekne petrodolara; kada je već
tako, ne vidim zašto bih žalio Amerikance što to ponekada treba i da
plate.
32XDVV
svet.16dejanr,
>> Treći, a verovatno PRVI, razlog je potrebna snaga da se to uradi. Bojim
>> se da bi američko angažovanje moralo dostići angažovanje u Vijetnamu.
>> (?) Nakon tadašnjeg fijaska, teško je preuzeti takvu odgovornost. Na
>> kraju krajeva, šta biva sa ugledom i presižom USA u slučaju neuspeha?
To je kocka, ali kocka ima i drugu stranu. U slučaju brzog uspeha, Buš
je (skoro sigurno) i u sledećem mandatu predsetnik... Ko ne reskira taj
ne profitira (i ne gubi...).
Inače, i ja mislim da je rat neizbežan, nadam se samo da će što kraće
trajati i da će se završiti oslobađanjem Kuvajta okupacije.
svet.17dveselinovic,
To, i da će Sadam i njegovi pajtosi sve to platiti glavom. Ovom
svetu zaista ne treba novi Hitler.
32XDVV
svet.19bojt,
>> Medjutim,ako Amerikanci i udju u rat (što je vrlo malo
>> verovatno) neće im ovo biti druga Granada ili Panama... Irak ima
>> ogromnu i dobro obučenu armiju koja je tek završila jedan rat...
To je vrlo relativno. I Libija ima u tom smislu prilično dobru
(naravno ne toliko jaku) armiju, pa je prošla kako je prošla
pre 4-5 godina. Te armije mogu da budu dobre i jake u nekom
lokalnom sukobu, pogotovo kad za protivnika imaju prilično
slabo naoružanog protivnika sa skoro nikakvom avijacijom (kao
na primer Iran). Medjutim, u ovom sukobu koji predstoji
presudan značaj imaće avijacija u kojoj je Irak apsolutno
inferioran u odnosu na protivnika (a pre će biti protivnike).
Pored toga, ne treba se zanositi Granadom i Panamom. U ovom
slučaju su dovedeni u pitanje stubovi čitave zapadne
civilizacije (biće da je to glavni uzrok) i teško da se ovo
može okončati tek kao "puj pike ne važi".
>> Kako ja gledam na sve u Zalivu,sve više se slažem sa
>> okupacijom Kuvajta od strane Iraka,jer po čemu da jedna
>> porodica (u Kuvajtu) drži sva naftna polja... i živi u
>> izobilju a zemlje oko nje su ekonomski iscrpljene (što
>> ratovima a što lošim politikama svojih vlada) i ljudi umiru
>> od gladi!
Ima tu neke logike... Eto ja nikako ne mogu da se načudim kako
se mi ovde toga nismo prvi setili. Ekonomski smo iscrplejni i
još malo ljudi neće imati šta da jedu... Mogli smo lepo mi
da marnemo Kuvajt i Bog da nas vidi... Ili još bolje Švajcarsku!
I ona je mala, a tamo ljudi u proseku mnogo bolje žive nego
što su živeli oni u Kuvajtu. Ma da im mi nanu naninu!
ŠTA SE žEKA!?!?!
svet.20vkostic,
>> Kako ja gledam na sve u Zalivu,sve više se slažem sa okupacijom Kuvajta
>> od strane Iraka, jer po čemu da jedna porodica (u Kuvajtu) drži sva
>> naftna polja... i živi u izobilju a zemlje oko nje su ekonomski
>> iscrpljene (što ratovima a što lošim politikama svojih vlada) i ljudi
>> umiru od gladi!
Dali si ti oduzlevski normalan? Da nisi lud, komunista ili nesto slicno?
Prvo, sta ko radi u Kuvajtu i koliko naftonosnih polja drzi nije stvar
Iraka nego Kuvajtskog naroda. A tom narodu nije bilo ni malo lose pre
invazije.
Drugo, to sto je Iraq ekonomski iscpljen i sto ljudi umiru od gladi nije
razlog da se napadaju susedi. To Iraq treba sam da resava sa sobom.
Trece, da li ti znas sta se desava u Kuvajtu? Jel ti znas da je tamo
sprovedena pljacka i divljanje nevidjenih razmera. Sa kojim pravom?
>> Normalno sve ove milijarde dolara koje se troše u Zalivu
>> (za Amere i ostale) isplatićemo MI,siromašni i nesvrstani!
Jadni mi! Nije mi bas jasno sta to MI placamo osim skuplje nafte bas kao
i ceo svet (ukljucujuci i Amere). I MI trosimo naftu, ne samo zapad, pa
bi trebali do neba da budemo zahvalni Amerima ako odrze snabdevanje
nafte. Sadam, kakav je lud, bi lako mogao da unisti sve busotine na
bliskom istoku - samo ako mu se dozvoli.
>> I kad smo već kod atomske bombe jedno pitanje: Po čemu Izrael
>> zaslužuje atomsku bombu a Irak je ne zaslužuje?
Ti si stvarno potpuno lud oduzlevski kada postavljas takvo pitanje !!!
Na celu Iraka se nalazi jedan paranoicni diktator ludak koji je koristio
hemijsko oruzje protiv svojeg sopstvenog naroda. Sta mislis da mu damo
atomsku bombu? Mislis da je nece odmah baciti na nekoga?
Sto se tice Izraela, on atomsku bombu ima jos odavno i ne pada mu na
pamet da je koristi osim u slucaju krajnje nuzde - ako je napadnut.
svet.23bojt,
reply na 2.18
>> Kako ja gledam na sve u Zalivu,sve više se slažem sa okupacijom
>> Kuvajta od strane Iraka,...
E da, zaboravih. Da pojačam tezu zašto smo MI trebali da koknemo
Kuvajt. Pa tamo je bre bila gomila Filipinki! Otkud pravo
Iračkim vojnicima da se omaste (mmmmm) a mi da se ne omastimo?
>> >> To je vrlo relativno... I Libija ima u tom smislu prilicno
>> >> dobru...armiju,pa je prosla kako je prosla pre 4-5 godina.
>> I posle mi pricajte o nekoj pravdi! Eto,opet Ameri guraju svoj
>> nos tamo gde nije potreban...
Možda da se ti prošetaš do porodica po Francuskoj i ostalim
zemljama zapada i da im objasniš to što su njihovi najbliži
pobijeni bombama po bankama, restoranima, porodilištima,
aerodromima i avionima u doba pomame terorizma (pre
bombardovanja Tripolija) u stvari jedna vrlo pravedna stvar...
>> I,da,Iracka armija se u visokim vojnim krugovima visoko
>> kotira jer je savrseno obucena i naoruzana (naoruzavali su je
>> Britanci,Ameri,Francuzi,cak i Nemci...)
I tako savršeno naoružana i obučena nije uspela za 10 godina
da pobedi Iran koji je bio neuporedivo manje naoružan i
naoružavan. A isti taj Iran opet je Irak prvi napao pre 11
godina zato što ga je, bojkotovanog od svetske javnosti zbog
talaca u ambasadi USA i opustošenog Homeinijevom revolucijom,
smatrao lakim plenom.
>> Hteo bi da kažem kazem otprilike ono sto je i Sadam rekao:
>> Ako dodje do rata Americki vojnici (a po meni,najobicniji
>> zutokljunci bez trunke vojnog iskustva) plivace u svojoj
>> sopstvenoj krvi...
Videćemo za koji dan...
>> Cesto cujem ono u stilu,ako sada pustimo Sadama... tralala,
>> tralala... A sta je sa Amerima i koliko puta smo njih
>> pustili da "divljaju" pod raznim izgovorima u razlicitim
>> zemljama?
Ja mislim da ćeš ti biti prilično neshvaćen na ovom prostoru
(sem ako nas sve ne zaj**avaš ko Kanda onomad). Iako svako ima
pravo da misli šta mu je volja, nije prijatno kad te niko ne
razume. U tom smislu možda bi mogao da razmisliš da, kad Irak
u ovom predstojećem ratu pobedi Amerikance, Francuze, Engleze
(a bogami možda i Nemce) i kad ovi budu otplivali u sopstvenoj
krvi, predješ da živiš u Irak gde je sve tako pravedno i lepo...
Podsećaš me na jednog čoveka koga sam upoznao u vozu kada sam
se pre šest godina vraćao iz Švajcarske. Tip je bio iz čeneve
i putovao je u Bugarsku i tokom čitavog puta do Beograda mi je
objašnjavao kako je u Švajcarskoj sranje, kako su svi revoltirani
i nezadovoljni, a kako je u Bugarskoj gotivno i kako pada sneg
(bilo je zimsko doba) i narod je srećan i zadovoljan...
svet.24miha,
Mislim da rata u Zalivu ipak neće biti jer bi cjeli Bliski
Istok mogao da plane kao bure baruta. Toga su, čini mi se i
Amerikanci svjesni jer bi, inače, davno napali Irak.
Rat u Zalivu bi predstavljao novi krstaški rat. Smatram da
bi to, sa jedne strane, bilo dobro, jer će muslimani uvjek
predstavljati opasnost, sa svojim militantnim pogledom na
vjerske i druge probleme, pa ili dža ili bu...
Što se nas tiče mi tim ratom gubimo sve one devize koje bi
trebale da nam budu isplaćene na račun obavljenih
građevinskih usluga "bratskom nesvrstanom" Iraku ;>
žak ni jedan dobar kontigent naoružanja nije isplaćen (puške
M70A) a kamoli školovanje Iračkih oficira na našim Vojnim
Akademijama (npr. dok sam ja bio u Rajlovcu, samo na VTVA
smo školovali oko 500 Iračana i oko 900 Libijaca.
miha.
svet.25georges,
│────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────│
│ █▀▀▀█ █▀▀▀ █▀▀▀█ █ █ █ CE3AM 1991. │
│ █▄▄▄█ █▀▀ █▄▄▄█ █ ███ ═══════════════════════════════│
│ █ █▄▄▄▄▄█▄▄▄ █ █▄▄▄▄ █ GEORGES de YOUGOSLAVIE │
│───────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────│
█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
Ne kazem, dragi Prijatelji, i nikada nisam ni rekao da osi-
ljenog Imperatora ne treba udariti po ambicijama. Hocu da kazem da
su i Imperatorovi podanici jednako ljudi kao i mi, od slicne tvari
gradjeni i sa ogranicenjima duha nalik nasim. To sto su neki od njih
muslimani a neki od nas hriscani samo je elemenat vise (danas presu-
dan u generisanju konflikta dve "verske grupe". Dakle, religijska
konstanta ljudske prirode prisutna je i kod nas i kod njih. Posebno
je sada pitanje koliko joj se obracaju oni a koliko mi.
Verski rat je na pomolu, sa vama se slazem. No eventualni bliski rat
multinacionalnih snaga (citaj: Amerikanaca!) i Iracana nema za podlo-
gu verski elemenat. Ratovace se zbog Nafte i Principa. Da Kuvajt nije
naftonosan, cisto sumnjam da bi Sadam posegnuo za jednim takvim par-
cencetom zemlje, makar to nekada bila i iracka teritorija. A Ameri,
oni se samo skrivaju iza Principa, u pogodnom trenutku koriste pogod-
no sredstvo. Ne moze im se poreci politicka umesnost, ali je to dale-
ko od svete humane moralnosti. Sta bi, recimo, bilo da je Izrael po-
korio Kuvajt?
Svestan sam surovosti zivota. I pored sve moje mastovitosti, neki
idealizmi jednostavno iscile u haosu svakodnevlja. Ako mislim ovde i
sada, onda ne mogu da predjem preko prolivene ljudske krvi na vrelom
pesku, preko u lesinu pretvorenih ljudskih bica. Ako mislim ovde i
sada, u meni vriste od bola i islamske i hriscanske majke, sestre,
braca, devojke, deca. Zar da se tome radujem, zar se bilo ko moze to-
me radovati? Ne bore se ni Bus ni Husein licno jedan protiv drugoga,
bori se stotine hiljade jednih protiv stotine hiljada drugih. Prizna-
cete, tu je najmanje dva miliona povezanih sudbina!
Pravila ove "igre" izvedena su iz naseg surovog zivotinjskog porekla.
Ljudski bi bilo organizovati turnir u bilo kom sportu, nekom posebnom
viseboju na primer, pa kom opanci kom obojci. Smejete se? I jeste
smesno, no takav smeh kakav ja zelim danas nikako nije moguc. I u to-
me lezi surovost sveta iz koga smo potekli i u kome obitavamo. No i u
toj surovosti valja pogledati ljudsku dimenziju onih drugih, svakako
nama veoma slicnih.
Ako mislim sutra i tamo, onda je jasno da Sadam ne sme da postane
drugi Hitler! Secate se, sve je zapocelo sa sitnim teritorijalnim us-
tupcima. Nesto kasnije je krv i jednih i drugih (hriscana!) tekla
u potocima.
"Lako je biti heroj tudjom krvlju." Izmedju dva zla, treba uvek izab-
rati manje. Danas je vreme za manje zlo. Sutra vec... ko zna?
PROMENIMO STRANE ZAMISLJAJUCI DA SMO
MI ONI I DA SU ONI MI. U CEMU JE RAZ-
LIKA? SAMO U BOJI SMRTI, ZAR NE?
=====================================
svet.26vcalic,
Italijanski futuristi su lepo govorili : "Rat je higijena čovečanstva".
Treba pobiti što više Arapa a ne treba mnogo žaliti ako pogine i neki Amer.
Ionako većinu američkih vojnika čine Crnci. Što manje Arapa i Crnaca, svet će
biti čistiji.
WR - rasista
svet.27jtitov,
> Što manje Arapa i Crnaca, svet će biti čistiji.
> WR - rasista
Nije lepo što tako govoriš. Ako ćemo tim tonom onda treba pobiti i
99% glupih srbenda koji su glasali za komunjare. A koliko su
jugovići čiste, pogledaj malo naše ulice, autobuse, javne zgrade, ...
Još si ti mali da bi i ZNAO šta je to rasizam. Da je Adolf ostvario
svoju teoriju o višoj rasi, mi nebismo bili u govnima - jer ne bi
ni postojali.
svet.28beast,
>>Ako dodje do rata Americki vojnici (a po meni,najobicniji zutokljunci bez
trunke vojnog iskustva) plivace u svojoj sopstvenoj krvi...
Nebuloza,pa zar ti mislis da sila poput amerike sa troduplo vise
vojske,naoruzanja,hemiskog naoruzanja da bude porazeno od malobrojnih
brkatih?
Pa Ameri jesu takticki neiskusni,al brate,bolje neiskusan u tenku nego iskusan
sa puskom.Znas li ti da je pola Sadamove vojske dezertiralo
plaseci se tih amera koje ti toliko ponizavas.Nemoj sad da ispadne da ih ja
volim,il tako nesto,nego samo da iracani pored svog svojeg
poznavanja ratne strategije NEMAJU sanse da osvoje kuvajt,tim pre sto je Irak
ekonomski i materijalno unisten,a samim tim i moralno!Ako bude
doslo do rata=Iraque is history!
svet.29dejanr,
>> Sa kojim pravom se sada mesaju u situaciju u Zalivu?Nemoj mi reci da
>> se radi o "uzdrmanim temeljima zapadne civilizacije"...pre bi se reklo
>> da Ameri pokusavaju da dodju do novih teritorija...
Ima tu jedna mala sitnica - USA tamo *ne* zastupa samo sebe nego čitavu
međunarodnu zajednicu, po ovlašćenju Saveta Bezbednosti UN. Inače, dotični
Savet je osnovan baš zato da bi omogućio da svet svim sredstvima (pa i
oružjem!) spreči da neka zemlja bude okupirana od jačeg suseda. Sad što
je do sada uglavnom bivao blokiran vetom, drugo je pitanje. Ali ovoga
puta je manje-više čitav svet (sem Huseina i ODuzlevskog :) jedinstvan
u nameri da *svim* potrebnim sredstvima oslobodi Kuvajt.
>> Kako ja gledam na sve u Zalivu,sve više se slažem sa okupacijom Kuvajta
>> od strane Iraka, jer po čemu da jedna porodica (u Kuvajtu) drži sva
>> naftna polja... i živi u izobilju a zemlje oko nje su ekonomski
>> iscrpljene (što ratovima a što lošim politikama svojih vlada) i ljudi
>> umiru od gladi!
Znači, okolne zemlje su imale lošu upravu itd pa su propale, a Kuvajt
je imao dobru upravu i tamo svi žive lepo, ne samo ta vladajuća porodica
nego svaki državljanin. E, pošto je tako, Kuvajtu treba uzeti i dati
okolnim zemljama, da i to proćerdaju pa onda udri dalje. Svaka čast
na logici!
svet.32vcalic,
>>Ako ćemo tim tonom onda treba pobiti i 99% glupih srbenda koji su glasali
>>za komunjare.
Što da ne? I za to sam !!!
>>Još si ti mali da bi i ZNAO šta je to rasizam. Da je Adolf ostvario
>>svoju teoriju o višoj rasi, mi nebismo bili u govnima - jer ne bi
>>ni postojali.
Prilično se slažem sa Adolfovom teorijom, iako za svoje postojanje
mogu da zahvalim okolnosti da nije uspeo da svoju teoriju sprovede u delu.
Al' što se tiče Arapa i Crnaca, sada je pravo vreme da se oni utamane.
WR
svet.33vcalic,
>>STA JE SA AMERICKIM SRANJIMA PO CELOM SVETU I ZASTO SE ONDA NIKO NE BUNI!!!
Ogi je u pravu, ti Ameri sole pamet svima po svetu trabunjajući
unaokolo kako "šire demokratiju". Trebalo bi ugovoriti sa njima izvoz naših
vrlih ekonomskih stručnjaka. Dr.Stanko bi sa svojom ekipom njih smirio za
čas. Ispotpisivao bi im kolektivne ugovore, uveo jedan Zajam (pardon Narodni
fond) i lupio par poreza na porez, pa bi za tri meseca gledali kako da
prežive, a ne kako da dele "demokratiju" po svetu
WR
svet.34bojt,
>> O.K.!!!
>> O.K.!!!
>> Ubedili ste me...
Ogi, najiskrenije i bez zadnje misli: svaka čast!
Ovo je prvi put u FORUMU (a možda i šire) da neko javno iskaže
ono što je gore citirano!
Prosto ne mogu da poverujem :)
>> Kada Ruska armija udje u Balticke republike (ipak je formalno
>> to njihova drzava i imaju pravo da rade sta hoce)...
Pa sad, i Ruska armija nije mnogo pitala kad je ulazila u, recimo,
Avganistan. Ni u te baltičke Republike 1940. Da ne govorim o tome
kako Rusi nisu mnogo pitali Madjare, Poljake, žehe i Slovake,
Rumune itd da li oni baš mnogo žele da im posle rata ostane ruska
čizma na kičmi. I recimo Madjarska 1956 i žehoslovačka 1968.
Sve su to mutna posla...
svet.35bojt,
>> >> Možda da se ti prošetaš do porodica po Francuskoj i ostalim
>> >> zemljama zapada i da im objasniš to što su njihovi najbliži
>> >> pobijeni bombama...u doba pomame terorizma...
>> Pa, možda se ti prošetaš po Panami,Granadi,VIJETNAMU i objasniš
>> tamošnjim ljudima to što su njihovi najbliži pobijeni zbog
>> jedne Svetske mirovne akcije koju ustvari sprovodi Amerika....
Postoje razilke izmedju Paname, Granade i VIJETNAMA (naročito
Panama) ali ipak ne mogu da ti ne dam za pravo. Što je istina
istina je.
Medjutim, to nikako ne znači da zbog Paname, Granade, Vijetnama,
Avganistana, Madjarske, žehoslovačke, Estonije, Litvanije,
Letonije,... treba sad svako ko je malo veći da udari nekog manjeg
samo zato što je jači i da čitav svet treba na to da otćuti jer su,
Bože moj, to radili i Rusi i Ameri (mada fakat formalno od drugog
rata nisu i prisvajali teritorije). Ako odemo u kraću ili dalju
prošlost, videćemo da su to radili i Francuzi, i Englezi, i Nemci,
i Španci, i Portugalci, i Japanci, i Turci, i Kinezi, i Arapi a
bogami i Srbi.
Za postupak Huseina nema nikakvog opravdanja i velika je sreća što
u svetu sada vlada takva klima da mu to ne može biti dozvoljeno (u
neko predjašnje vreme Rusi bi automatski stali uz Irak i na taj
način u neko dogledno vreme praktično dobili i Irak i Kuvajt)
svet.36dejanr,
>> > Ima tu jedna mala sitnica - USA *ne* zastupa samo sebe nego čitavu
>> > medjunarodnu zajednicu, po ovlašćenju Saveta Bezbednosti UN.
>>
>> O.K. Onda evo tebi jedno pitanje:Zasto to isto Amerika ne radi na
>> okupiranim Palestinskim teritorijama nego se baš sad našla da
>> zastupa interese UN.
Koliko mi je poznato, Savet Bezbednosti Ujedinjenih Nacija, kao jedino
izvršno telo svetske organizacije, NIKADA nije doneo rezoluciju kojom
bi zahtevao povlačenje Izraela sa pomenutih teritorija a SASVIM SAM
SIGURAN da nikada nije propisao nikakve sankcije. Što se problema
Palestinaca tiče, u poznatoj Rezoluciji Saveta Bezbednosti taj se problem
tretira kao problem izbeglica.
Generalna Skupština je donela razne rezolucije po ovom pitanju ali ona,
prema Povelji UN, nema izvršnu vlast tj. ne može određivati sankcije itd.
>> Kada Ruska armija udje u Balticke republike (ipak je formalno to
>> njihova drzava i imaju pravo da rade sta hoce)_ onda se gospoda
>> Ameri zgražavaju,a kad oni udju u Panamu i UHAPSE PREDSEDNIPANAME
>> (ovo nije krsenje svih odredbi svih mogucih medjunarodnih ugovora
>> i to pod nekakvim bezveznim izgovorom rasturanja droge) onda
>> nikom NISTA!!!!
Prvo, i Sovjeti su se šetali po nekakvoj Mađarskoj, Avganistanu a zamalo
i kod nas nisu svratili. Drugo, Norijega NIJE bio legalno izabrani
predsednik Paname nego uzurpator legalne vlasti. Sve to manje-više, nego
šta je alternativa za NIKOM NIŠTA koje pominješ? Rat? A baš ti osuđuješ
USA što u Zalivu ide u rat a ne praktikuje NIKOM NIŠTA koje opet
kritikuješ. Zar to nije protivrečno?
>> DALJE,necu da kazem da je ono sto je Sadam uradio ispravno,ali,opet
>> (po stoti put ;)) STA JE SA AMERICKIM SRANJIMA PO CELOM SVETU I ZASTO
>> SE ONDA NIKO NE BUNI!!!
Buni se, buni... evo mi (Jugoslavija) smo se redovno bunili... što je
Ameriku duboko zabrinulo ;) Ali svako može da se buni, treba nešto
založiti za svoje ciljeve a ne samo pucati rečima. A međunarodne snage
u Zalivu upravo to rade.
svet.37balinda,
>> To je kocka, ali kocka ima i drugu stranu. U slučaju brzog
>> uspeha, Buš je (skoro sigurno) i u sledećem mandatu
>> predsetnik... Ko ne reskira taj ne profitira (i ne gubi...).
To svakako. (Šarl de Gol je rekao: "Pravi državnik je samo onaj koji ume da
rizikuje.") No, to je vrlo teško kada je ulog ovako veliki a kada se već dosta
ima izgubiti. Hoću da kažem da Buš ima *odlične* šanse za sledeći mandat (ako
bi to sada uopšte bio glavni razlog premišljanja?).
Budući da Gorbačov još uvek ima odlične pozicije u američkom javnom mnjenju
dovevši US na mesto koje je američki narod odavno želeo, smatram da će se
dobrim delom zasluga preneti i na ovu administraciju. Popularnost Buša kod kuće
opšte nije mala. (Možda tek nešto manja od Reganove iz najboljih dana?) Zato se
još kako ima šta izgubiti i ubeđen sam da bi Buš mnogo više voleo da iračke
okupacije Kuvajta uopšte nije ni bilo. (?)
svet.38georges,
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│ █ █▄▄▄▄▄█▄▄▄ █ █▄▄▄▄ █ GEORGES de YOUGOSLAVIE │
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█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
CEGA SE PAMETAN STIDI,
LUD SE TIME PONOSI!
======================
Takve kao sto si ti, ja uopste ne bih tamanio. Vama je mesto
u rudnicima, da posteni narod od vas ima neke vajde.
Kakav ce covek postati od toliko adolfisticki usmerenog provokatora?
Sa sopstvenom "salom" mozes da se slikas za ENCIKLOPEDIJU LJUDSKIH
GLUPOSTI!
==========WR kao WILD ROOK?=========================================
svet.42bulaja,
> Treba pobiti sto vise Arapa a ne treba mnogo zaliti ako pogine i neki Amer.
> Ionako vecinu americkih vojnika cine Crnci. Sto manje Arapa i Crnaca, svet
> ce biti cistiji.
WE GOTTA FIGHT THE POWER !
svet.43bulaja,
> Koliko mi je poznato, Savet Bezbednosti Ujedinjenih Nacija, kao jedino
> izvrsno telo svetske organizacije, NIKADA nije doneo rezoluciju kojom
> bi zahtevao povlacenje Izraela sa pomenutih teritorija a SASVIM SAM
> SIGURAN da nikada nije propisao nikakve sankcije.
Pa naravno da nije nista doneo, kad su ameri svaki put stavljali veto
na sve slicne predloge. A nije ni cudo sto je tako, kad jevreji drze
pola New Yorka.
> > Ameri zgrazavaju,a kad oni udju u Panamu i UHAPSE PREDSEDNIPANAME
> > (ovo nije krsenje svih odredbi svih mogucih medjunarodnih ugovora
> > i to pod nekakvim bezveznim izgovorom rasturanja droge) onda
> > nikom NISTA!!!!
> Norijega NIJE bio legalno izabrani predsednik Paname nego uzurpator
> legalne vlasti.
:) Pala mi je napamet jedna lepa ideja. Aj' da pozovemo amere nek nam
pomognu sa lokalnim 'legalnim' predsednikom i ostalim uzurpatorima.
svet.44bojt,
>> >> Pa sad, i Ruska armija nije mnogo pitala kad je ulazila u,
>> >> recimo,Avganistan.
>> Da, ali seti se kako su tada reagovali vrli Ameri...a sa
>> njima i svi dodvornici...
????????
Kako su reagovali?
Pa trubili su na sva zvona kako je to jedan ordinarni čin agresije.
I posle su naoružavali Mudžahedine.
Isto ko što su svojevremeno reagovali vrli Rusi...a sa
njima i svi dodvornici...
...kada se radilo o Vijetnamu. Kakve tu razlike ima?
>> Jel su Ameri Bogom dani da oni mogu da osvajaju teritorije i
>> vode ratove (naravno,i tada se neko usprotivi i niko ne salje
>> vojsku na Amere) a kad neko drugi pokori nekog drugog, onda
>> odjednom osvajaci (ameri) postaju anđelćići...
Ništa bre nisi ukapirao! Normalno da Ameri nisu Bogom dani
da vode ratove. Medjutim, po tom pitanju Rusi su bili čak
i gori od njih al to nije bitno za ovo što ja hoću da kažem.
Niko nema pravo da osvaja manjeg od sebe! Zato i postoje UN
da bi to sankcionisale, to tako da neko jači od onog ko se
drznuo da osvaja osvajaču nalupa packe. Kada su to radili,
u doba konfrontacije, Rusi i Ameri, ili neko od njihovih
"dodvornika", taj insistut nije mogao da funkcioniše iz
jednostavnog razloga što ne postoji niko jači od Rusa i
Amera.
>> ...postaju anđelćići koji su tako zabrinuti za svetski mir
>> (iako je zbog njih moglo da izbije 15 puta vise ratova nego
>> zbog ludog Sadama)...
I zato treba ostaviti Sadama da divlja!?
Poenta je da "ludog Sadama" može da smiri samo neko jači od
njega, a to su Ameri ili Rusi. Ameri sa jedne strane imaju
debeo ekonomski interes i još neke razloge, a Rusi su u
agoničnom raspadu i zato, eto, Ameri to moraju da urade.
>>>> u neko predjašnje vreme Rusi bi automatski stali uz Irak...
>> Da i onda ne bi doslo da rata u Zalivu, jer znaju Ameri da
>> nemaju sanse sa Rusima i da bi ih Rusi pregazili u roku od
>> pola dana, nego su se Ameri navikli da gaze slabije od sebe!!!
Nx? NxNx!
Da, da, kolko je jaka ta silna sila sada se najbolje vidi.
Muka mi je bre Ogi da mlatim dalje praznu slamu. Možemo da
nastavimo razgovor za neku godinu, ako si raspoložen?
svet.46shone,
|Rat u Zalivu bi predstavljao novi krstaski rat. Smatram da
|bi to, sa jedne strane, bilo dobro, jer ce muslimani uvjek
|predstavljati opasnost, sa svojim militantnim pogledom na
|vjerske i druge probleme, pa ili dza ili bu...
-----------------------------------------------------------
Posle ovakve izjave ja molim SysAdme da me smesta izbace sa
SEZAM-a jer cu kao sto rece Miha uvek predstavljatti opasnost
za sve Vas ovde na SEZAM-u. U protivnom cu doci ispred BIGZ-a
i javno spaliti svoj modem. Ako se ovde nastavi ovakvim tonom
to cu zaista i uciniti. Dosta mi je opasnih muslimana i smrd-
ljivih Arapa.
Shone
svet.47dveselinovic,
Oćeš šibicu?
32XDVV
svet.48bojt,
žovek je u pravu.
Moglo bi malo da se pripazi sa tim niskim strastima, a ko
se u stvari šalio vreme je da to i obelodani jer kako vidim
mnogi nisu shvatili.
I Kuvajćani su Arapi, a na neki način ovaj rat će se voditi
i da bi oni bili odbranjeni.
svet.49vcalic,
Imao bih šta da odgovorim na ovu poruku, ali mi ne pada ni na kraj
pameti da diskutujem sa nekim anonimnim tipovima (ako neko poznaje tog
georgesa onda se izvinjavam) koji ne znaju ni za osnovni red da se predstave
ostalima putem resume-a. Kad komanda "res read georges" bude davala nešto što
nije sistemski kreiran resume, onda ćemo moći da razgovaramo.
WR
P.S. Po pitanju ovog 'WR', mogu samo da primetim da mi je to ime dodelio
jedan od moderatora ove konferencije (onaj što je visok 162cm i težak 45kg ;)))
svet.50vcalic,
>>Po cemu si ti vise covek od nekog crnca ili Arapa?
Rado ću ti odgovoriti na ovo pitanje na nekom drugom mestu, s obzirom
na apel g.Tepavčevića da se strasti malo smire. Možda da otvorimo šifru
!ku_klux_klan ;)
WR
svet.51vcalic,
>> WE GOTTA FIGHT THE POWER !
Ovaj još nije postao predsednik, a već je počeo da štancuje parole.
WR
svet.52vcalic,
>>:) Pala mi je napamet jedna lepa ideja. Aj' da pozovemo amere nek nam
>>pomognu sa lokalnim 'legalnim' predsednikom i ostalim uzurpatorima.
Vidi, vidi, naš budući president je smislio način kako da dođe na
vlast ;)))
VOTE FOR BULAJA !!!!
WR
svet.53vcalic,
>>Posle ovakve izjave ja molim SysAdme da me smesta izbace sa SEZAM-a jer cu
>>kao sto rece Miha uvek predstavljatti opasnost za sve Vas ovde na SEZAM-u.
Hej, hej, come on. Što reče onomad g.Mićunović u srpskom
kobajagi.parlamentu, daj da ne zamenjujemo teze. Niko nije rekao da Ti
predstavljaš opasnost za nas na Sezamu. Miha je rekao:
>>jer ce muslimani uvjek predstavljati opasnost, sa svojim militantnim
>>pogledom na vjerske i druge probleme,
misleći (verovatno) na militantni islamski fundamentalizam, koji je
svojim načinima delovanja suprotstavljen hrišćanstvu, koje je, opet, temelj
evrposke civilizacije. U tom kontekstu, islamski fundamentalizam itekako
predstavlja opasnost po nas, s obzirom da smo (i) mi deo te evropske
civilizacije.
WR
svet.54georges,
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█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
Svedok bez Reci
***************
U Svitku
je
Paklena ptica
i crta
Hiljadu godina
Punine.
Da li je to bio
Prezir
koji raskida sa Vodom
vezu cini - zuckastog
Vina?
Trinaesto jevandjelje
naocitog i naoko
razbludnog
Filozofa Smrti...
Svedok bez Reci.
svet.57miha,
Reply to Shone :
Ova je poruka kao odgovor na Vladinu, iz prostog razloga što je on već
objasnio na šta sam mislio. Pošto sam ateista, molim te, nemoj mi preba
civati vjersku netrpeljivost. Jako me je začudilo što si se našao
pogođen mojom porukom jer si mogao pretpostaviti da nije upućena na
tvoju kao ni na adrese ostalih poštenih muslimana.
Da bih malo razjasnio šta sam mislio o islamskom fundamentalizmu :
Svjestan sam zločina koje je činila katolička vjera, npr. prema
protestantima kao i onih koje je činila ortodoksna prema Bogumilima...
Ali to je prošlost...Islamski fundamentalizam postoji sada i ovdje i
mislim da ne treba posebno da objašnjavam tezu da ima upletene prste i
na teritoriji YU (sjeti se samo Kosova i Sandžaka-zelene linije..).
Koliko sam shvatio, a to su mi pričali neki moji drugovi muslimani, u
Kuran je implementirana netrpeljivost prema drugim vjerama u mnogo većem
obimu nego kod obje hrišćanske vjere, skupa...
Pojam 'Džihad',kojim fundamentalisti u zadnje vrjeme jako mnogo barataju
ne možeš naći ni u jednoj drugoj vjeri...
Ako si pratio diskusiju oko Zaliva i ako si pratio situaciju oko Zaliva
trebalo bi ti biti jasno da je poruka bila upućena kao viđenje situacije
u Zalivu. Ujedinjenje Arapa protiv USA i saveznika (po vjerskoj osnovi),
itd.
Ovu tvoju poruku mogu shvatiti na dva načina :
1. Nisi pratio temu pa si poruku shvatio kao napad na SVE muslimane
2. Pratio si temu i pravilno shvatio poruku
i zato imam dva odgovora, ti pročitaj onaj koji se na tebe odnosi:
1. Mislio sam na fundamentaliste
2. Neću ni da trošim prste...
miha
svet.58shone,
Sve je u redu i pokazuje se tecnim misao da treba otkucati
reply tek posto izbrojis do deset u sebi. No to ne znaci da
se ovde ponekad daju neke izjave koje mozda nece svakome bi-
ti prijatne, pa se moze ocekivvati i odgovor slican mom. Sto
se tice rata u zalivu tu nema mnogo sta da se prica. Amer je
imao grdne pare i Kuvajtu i ne zeli da ih se odrekne. Ako su
takvi demokrati i mirotvorci sto ne izbace Izrael sa okupira-
nih teritorija (arapskih). Rade sto im je volja i niko ih ne
moze spreciti u tome.
Shone
svet.59vkrstonosic,
>> Ih,bre,VC...Ti ga bas pretera...Po cemu si ti vise covek od nekog crnca
>> ili Arapa?
Sinoc sam po ovom pitanju porazgovarao sa ortakom kojem je ostalo jos
dva ispita na medicini. On kaze da je medicina i zvanicno priznala da su
crnci malo niza rasa, mada su oni tu izjavi malo lepse upakovali.
Razlog je vrlo jednostavan, radi se o uslovima zivota. I dan danas u
Africi zive neka plemena isto kao pre dve hiljade godina. Jednostavno,
uvek su imali sta da jedu (dignes ruku i uberes, ili cekas da nesto
nastrada), nikada im nije bilo hladno, nisu imali potrebe da napreduju,
da se bore za sebe. Za razliku od njih belci su ziveli u mnogo goroj
okolini (zato su beli :) i morali su da se snalaze i za hranu i za mesto
u kojem ce prespavati, pa su se samim tim i vise razvili.
svet.60jtitov,
>s' obzirom da smo (i) mi deo te evropske civilizacije.
E tu si se malo zeznuo. Pola od vas su muslimani i ostali Turci.
Jesi li zaboravio da su vam Turci bili 500 i kusur godina na
grbači (a i u krevetu).
I DOSTA SA TIM VERSKIM, NACIONALISTIžKIM I RASNIM PREPUCAVANJEM.
NEKA SYSADM-I OTVORE POSEBNU KONFERENCIJU.
svet.61balinda,
>> Mislim da rata u Zalivu ipak neće biti jer bi cjeli
>> Bliski Istok mogao da plane kao bure baruta.
Ja se, pak, plašim da će ga biti. (?) Nakon što je američki kongres izglasao
rezoluciju o upotrebi sile (52:47) i to *PRVI* put nakon II svetskog rata
(govori li vam ovo nešto?), na Huseinu je da razmisli hoće li izgubiti nešto od
prestiža i pristati na najbolju moguću nagodbu, pri čemu ostaje i dalje velika
vojna sila na Bliskom istoku, ili će suludo reskirati da izgubi sve? žini se da
je preovlađujuće mišljenje širom sveta da je bolje da Husein pogreši i upusti
se u bezperspektivni rat. Velikim diktatorima mahom se uvek osvetila lična
greška pred kojom se sada nalazi i Sadam Husein. No, videćemo šta će biti nakon
poslednje vanredne sednice iračkog parlamenta?
Ako se sve završi na ovome, mislim da ipak neće biti napada na Izrael iz
nekoliko jakih razloga. Prvi je taj što je Izrael, uz Irak, jedina ozbiljna
vojna sila na Bliskom istoku i time bi, čisto vojno gledano, Irak bio
višestruko ugrožen. Pre mi se čine pretnje Izraelu samo opomena, koja doduše
ima rezultata, da se Izrael ne meša što bi verovatno i bilo najpametnije.
Mislim da uvlačenjem Izraela u rat sa Irakom neće doći do okretanja Arapa na
Iračku stranu osim ako Izrel ne bi prvi napao?
Drugi, razlog zašto mislim da neće doći do iračkog napada na Izrael je što
bi tim besmislenim napadom Irak bio još izolovaniji u Svetu, ako i ima kud više
da bude? Verovatno bi sve što bi u tom slučaju Husein mogao da uradi bila samo
osveta za fizičko uništenje.
Za Irak je sada najpametnije da pristane na neku vrsu dogovora u kome se,
naravno, povlači iz Kuvajta a njih zamenjuju snage UN (bez Amerikanca & CO)
koje kobajagi "garantuju" pokretanje konferencije o Paslestini. Time bi se
ublažio sujetni udar na pozicije iračkog suverena i očuvana pozicija diktatora
da nam opet u nekoj doglednoj budućnosti bude kost u grlu. :(
svet.62balinda,
>> Italijanski futuristi su lepo govorili :
>> "Rat je higijena čovečanstva".
Ili Adolf Hitler: "Nacija truli od dugog mira." ;)
svet.63balinda,
>> Jel su Ameri Bogom dani da oni mogu da osvajaju teritorije i
>> vode ratove ....
>> (iako je zbog njih moglo da izbije 15 puta vise ratova nego...
Vidiš ja bih to nazvao "primenjena etika". :) To zašta se ti zalažeš zaista
deluje vrlo hrišćanski, rekao bih čak, samarićanski. Nadam se da neće zvučati
pokroviteljski, ali to NIGDE ne postoji? Upravo kao što mlađi brat stalno ne
shvata zašto stariji ima neka prava koja su njemu uskraćena, tako jačemu
ravnopravnost samo smeta. Možemo ti i ja i plakati što stvari ne stoje onako
kako smo vaspitani, ali u samoj suštini života je tako.
Koliko puta na dan, a da nismo svesni, prema nekome ili nečemu zauzmemo stav
snage i prava? Biće da je zalaganje za jednakost samo jedan od slabih aduta da
se *borimo* protiv jačeg. (?) Seti se toga kad, bez prevelike potrebe, zvizneš
neku bubu. :)
svet.64balinda,
>> Ako su takvi demokrati i mirotvorci sto ne izbace Izrael
>> sa okupiranih teritorija (arapskih). Rade sto im je volja
>> i niko ih ne moze spreciti u tome.
I ja bih se založio da se pitanje *spornih* teritorija reši na civilizovan
način. Ono što ne razumem je zamena teze. Husein je okupirao Kuvajt iz nama
dobro znanih razloga (tamo pare a kod njega izvežbana armija ;)). Posle se
dosetio Izraela. (Možda nisam u pravu ali mi se tako čini?.)
Sa Izraelom slučaj ipak nije takav. Geneza sukoba je da su PALESTINCI *prvi*
započeli rat protiv Izraela i nakon što su ga izgubili setili su se da to nije
u redu. Svi kasniji sukobi (sa Egiptom, Sirijom itd.) samo su nastavak aktivne
(može biti i *preaktivne*?) vojne izraelske politike. Međutim, ko im može
zameriti ako znamo da su tu poslati od strane GB i UN-a i da je njihovo mesto
pod suncem sasvim legitimno, a većina arapskih država još uvek nije priznala
pravo Izraelcima na postojanje? S druge strane, tako okruženi možda su i morali
da budu u toj meri agresivni jer verovatno drugčije ne bi ni opstali?
Naravno, slažem se sa tobom da postoji *I* izvestan dvostruki moral kada su
interesi i snaga u pitanju. Ali kada i gde nije bilo tako?
svet.65vcalic,
>>E tu si se malo zeznuo. Pola od vas su muslimani i ostali Turci.
>>Jesi li zaboravio da su vam Turci bili 500 i kusur godina na
>>grbači (a i u krevetu).
A ko smo to "mi" ?!!! Ako misliš na Srbe, obraćaš se na pogrešnu
adresu.
WR
svet.67miha,
Prvo torta :
>>E tu si se malo zeznuo. Pola od vas su muslimani i ostali Turci.
^^^
>>Jesi li zaboravio da su vam Turci bili 500 i kusur godina na
>>grbači (a i u krevetu).
pa onda i šlag :
>>I DOSTA SA TIM VERSKIM, NACIONALISTIžKIM I RASNIM PREPUCAVANJEM.
>>NEKA SYSADM-I OTVORE POSEBNU KONFERENCIJU.
A što se tiče mješanja sa drugim narodima nisu bili samo Turci i Srbi,
tu su figurirali i Talijani, Austrijanci, Mađari, Bugari i najmanje,
Grci...U mješanju su, naravno, učestvovali svi ostali Južni Sloveni.
Kao svjedočanstva su, uglavnom, ostala vjerksa netrpeljivost i
prezimena potomaka mješovitih brakova, veza i vezica...
pozdrav, miha
svet.68dejanr,
>> >...u neko predjašnje vreme Rusi bi automatski stali uz Irak...
>>
>> Da i onda ne bi doslo da rata u Zalivu,jer znaju Ameri da nemaju
>> sanse sa Rusima i da bi ih Rusi pregazili u roku od pola dana...
Jel ovo neki štos? :)) Rusi su za poslednjih par godina jasno pokazali
da su bili i ostali "tigar od papira". Mislim, oni možda i jesu značajna
vojna sila ali imaju "sitan" problem da ne mogu da prehrane i obuku
svoj narod. A rat ne dobijaju samo puške nego (kao MNOGO jači argument)
ekonomija...
svet.71bulaja,
> Takve kao sto si ti, ja uopste ne bih tamanio. Vama je mesto
> u rudnicima, da posteni narod od vas ima neke vajde.
Zato se Vlada i priprema studirajuci rudarstvo ;>.
svet.72bulaja,
Because if it's not Love
Then it's the Bomb
That will bring us together
Nature is a language - can't you read?
Steven Patrick Morrissey
svet.73dejanr,
>> Rusi-"tigar od papira"!!!!!
>> :)))))))))))))))))))))))
Smej se koliko hoćeš, ali zar nije tigar od papira onaj ko je za
godinu-dve izgubio čitavu svoju imperiju, srećom bez zrna baruta?
>> A šta je sa 2 svetskim ratom i Staljinom...I tada je Rusija bila
>> ekonomski unistena,i tada je narod gladovao...Pa opet,Nemci su
>> izgubili...
A sa druge strane, USA takođe dobila rat jedva malo zagrebana, zapravo
rat preporodio američku industriju...
>> Za godinu opet ce biti oni stari,naravno sa mnogo vise ljudske
>> slobode,para,i naravno sa kapitalistickim odnosima...
Malo sutra ;)
svet.74andrea,
Ogi,
posto vidim da jako volis pravi socializam u matici Rusiji:
ja imam par prijatelja u Mockbu koji bi VRLO RADO dosli makar u Jugu
na neodredjeno vreme. Posto je to sada moguce, ako se nadje bu.....
eehh entuzijasta,Ú koji bi u okviru prijateljske razmene otisao na
ogled velikih tehnickih i obavestajnih dostignuca SSSR-a, i pored
svega ostalog u godini dana smrsavio za 7*12 kg (I was there 1/12
year), molim te da mi javis preko maila.
Lep pozdrav, Maja
svet.75dbulat,
Sad mi je jasno zbog cega ne volis Ameriku i americku propagandu.
Ti si pravi obozavalac sovjetske propagande i CCCP-a.
Pozdrav!
Darko
svet.79dpozaric,
***************************
Apsolutno se slažem! Treba već jednom pokazati tim smrdljivim
arapima šta smeju a šta ne. ----------
-------
***************************
Eh, Lanik, molim te lijepo, ovo me podsjeća na dnevnu štampu. To što
tebi Arapi smrde, ostavi za sebe, molim te.
svet.80dpozaric,
***************************
Drugo, to sto je Iraq ekonomski iscpljen i sto ljudi umiru od gladi nije
razlog da se napadaju susedi. To Iraq treba sam da resava sa sobom.
***************************
Ma jok, to Iraku treba Lebensraum, a oduzlevskom se to sviđa.
Ako USA traže "proširenje teritorija" kako oduzlevski kaže, onda to
ne valja, ali ako to Saddam traži, onda je to ok. No, svemu sam se
nadao ali da mi ovdje netko pred amerima brani Huseina, tome svakako
nisam :()
svet.81dpozaric,
**********************************
Rusi-"tigar od papira"!!!!!!
:)))))))))))))))))))))))
**********************************
Nisu ni od papira, nego od perja....
*****************************
prvo,Rusi imaju dve najmocnije obavestajne sluzbe na svetu.To su KGB i GRU...
prema njima,ono sto CIA radi i sto je u mogucnosti da uradi je maciji kasalj...
*****************************
Jesi li se raspitao o tome da sva ta elita zahtijeva i da ima hrane i
pića i plaće ? E, pa, to je ono sto im USSR vlada uskoro neće moći
obezbijediti, upravo zbog neutaživih ambicija ortodoksnih
komunističkih oficira koji su, eto, najnovijom "akcijom" bacili na
koljena Gorbačova, jedinog predsjednika od Oktobarske revolucije za
kojega možeš reći da je normalan. Sovjetska armija je ogromna trutina
koja ždere novac i ljude i koja se neće moći prehraniti sama od sebe,
ako država propadne. Zato je mene (a i mnoge druge) strah da bi se ta
masa čelika i baruta mogla okrenuti prema Evropi i prosuti po nama
sav svoj bijes i jad, nemoć i bijedu. Jer, jednom su nas zamalo
promašili, što ne znači da će i opet.
********************************
Ako nisi znao,u samom STATE Depatmentu Ameri jos i danas otkrivaju spijune u
najvisim krugovima (slicno je i sa Pentagonom)...Necu ni da pominjem
Tidgea,klan Wilson itd...
********************************
Imaš pravo, Ameri u Rusiji ne bivaju potkrivani, pa ih valjda i nema
? Ili su malo bolji pa ne bivaju otkriveni ?
********************************
Drugo,u Sovjetsku armiju je ulagano vise od 50 godina,i to vrlo mnogo...Nama se
cini da Rusi nemaju bas neku tehniku itd.,ali to je samo zato sto se tehnika
kod njih do sada razvijala samo zbog vojske,pa je zato i bila tretirana kao
tajna...Ono sto se Ameri "pale" i prikazuju svoja najnovija borbena
sredstva,budi siguran da Sovjeti imaju spremne mnogo savremenije
odgovore...Necu da pominjem MIG-37 koji je jedan norveski lovac snimio na
pisti negde u Rusiji...
********************************
E, što bi neki sovjetski demagog dao da te ima uz sebe, da mu
"prosvjećuješ narodne mase"... Ne znam točne cifre, možda zna netko
drugi na Sezamu, no ogroman dio sovjetske tehnologije potiče sa
zapada, odnosno, ukraden je. Volio bih da ipak spomeneš taj MIG 37 pa
da kažeš što on to ima a da avioni NATO-a nemaju ili neće imati za
mjesec - dva ? :))
********************************
Dalje,slazem se za ekonomsku situacijum,ali,to je samo trenutno...Za godinu
opet ce biti oni stari,naravno sa mnogo vise ljudske slobode,para,i naravno sa
kapitalistickim odnosima...
********************************
Da li to znači da ćeš za godinu dana odseliti u USSR, u taj raj
nebeski ?
Što podrazumijevaš pod "oni stari" ? Misliš li da će nakon neuspjele
perestrojke Sovjetski Savez opet biti tamnica naroda kao i dosada,
poput ove naše jadne i napaćene države koja se raspada ?
*******************************
Naravno,sto se tice vojske (tu treba racunati i vojsku unutrasnjih poslova) kao
i sovjetske elitne jedinice SPEZNAZ sa kojima Ameri jednostavno nemaju sanse!
*******************************
Eh, da, ovaj mi pojam "vojska unutrašnjih poslova" nešto asocira na
sovjetski način za sprovođenje demokratskih načela. ;))
DP
svet.82dpozaric,
**********************
>>A rat ne dobijaju samo puške nego (kao MNOGO jači argument) ekonomija...
A šta je sa 2 svetskim ratom i Staljinom...I tada je Rusija bila ekonomski
unistena,i tada je narod gladovao...Pa opet,Nemci su izgubili...Velika je
Rusija...
(mislim na povrsinu...-da se nebi pogresno protumacilo!)...
**********************
Hoćeš li možda time reći da je Sovjetski Savez oslobodio svijet
Hitlera sam samcat ? Ja sam, iskreno, poprilično sretan da Sovjeti
nisu prošli mojom Istrom i da nisu ostavili za sobom traga, baš kao
ni Ameri ni itko drugi.
DP
svet.84lanik,
>> Pola od vas su muslimani i ostali Turci.
E ja vala nisam! Ja sam pravi pravcati SLOVEN, i nijedan Turčin
mi nije "stigao" babu ili prababu... ;))))
svet.85lanik,
>> Ima crnaca i crnaca...Ja ne pricam o onima koji zive 200 godina iza
nas vec o crncima koji zive sa nama (recimo crnci u Americi)... <<
Ti crnci u Americi su nešto MALO kulturniji od svojih dalekih
rodjaka u Africi, iz prostog razloga što su sada već generacijama
živeli sa belcima u njihovoj kulturi. Baš me interesuje koliko bi crnci
napredovali da ih belci nisu kolonizovali ili doveli u Ameriku...
I još ima ljudi koji pričaju protiv aparthejda! Pa da nije bilo
tih belaca u Južnoafričkoj republici, oni Crnci bi još uvek čučali na
granama!
Sve to o rasnoj ravnopravnosti je trenutna moda - samo će vreme
pokazati da su "nazadni" rasistički stavovi ipak tačni.
Don't get me wrong: ne kažem ja da su oni manje ljudi nego mi,
ali su intelektualno inferiorni u odnosu na belce.
Pozdrav,
Dalibor
svet.86lanik,
>> prvo,Rusi imaju dve najmocnije obavestajne sluzbe na svetu.To su KGB
i GRU...prema njima,ono sto CIA radi i sto je u mogucnosti da uradi je
maciji kasalj <<
Da, tačno je da je CIA mačiji kašalj za KGB, ali su isto tako
SVE svetske obaveštajne službe (uključujući tu i KGB) čak i mnogo manje
od mačijeg kašlja prema NSA. KGB bi mogli da rade u National Security
Agency (USA), eventualno, kao vratari...
Pozdrav,
Dalibor
svet.87lanik,
Ljudi, ljudi! Nemojte mešati Sovjete i Ruse! Sovjeti su
proizvod Komunizma a Rusi su naša braća SLOVENI!
svet.88lanik,
>> Eh, Lanik, molim te lijepo, ovo me podsjeća na dnevnu štampu. To što
tebi Arapi smrde, ostavi za sebe, molim te. <<
Izvini, ali da li si nekada bio u bilo kojoj Arapskoj zemlji?
Vidiš, ja sam bio više puta, i mislim da znam o čemu pričam --
i to nisam bio u nekoj "bedi" kao što je Iran, Irak itd. već u UAE,
koji su najkulturnija i najbogatija Arapska zemlja (za pravo čudo,
nemaju ni kapi nafte, ali imaju pitke VODE!! ;) i video sam kakvi su to
fanatici!
A kada po Jugi bude više džamija od crkava, pitaću te šta ćeš
misliti o Arapima...
Pozdrav,
Dalibor
svet.91bradenkovic,
POstovani kolega,
delimicno se slazem sa komentarom o smrdljivim islamiziranim Arapima.
Medjutim dali su svi u Iraku muslimani. Ja sam mislio da jesu, ali
sam bio u zabludi. Ispade da im je ministar unutrasnjih dela
hriscanin a da su im partiju osnovali jevreji.
Pozdrav
Boza.
P.S.
Da nebi mislili da su ovo proizvoljne tvrdnje prilazem jednu
diskusiju sa Bitnet-a.
From: IN%"XCULT-L@PSUVM.bitnet" "International Intercultural
Newsletter" 14-JAN-1991 14:58:44.71
To: Dr Bozidar Radenkovic <EARN_011@YUBGEF51.bitnet>
CC:
Subj:
Received: from JNET-DAEMON by yubgef51; Mon, 14 Jan 91 14:58 GMT -1
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Date: Mon, 14 Jan 91 16:42:50 SAT
From: ENF3014@SAKAAU03.bitnet
Sender: International Intercultural Newsletter <XCULT-L@PSUVM.bitnet>
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Reply-to: International Intercultural Newsletter
<XCULT-L@PSUVM.bitnet>
Message-id: <D4C75273983F002722@yubgef51>
X-Envelope-to: EARN_011
Subject : What culture Aziz represent ? . Few facts for Joyce .
Joyce in one of her notes said :
------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to get copies of videotapes of the Baker and Aziz press
interviews Wednesday 1/8/91 to use in my graduate seminar on cross-
cultural communication. I would also be interested in any tapes
of Saddam Hossein's previous interviews. Does anyone have a copy?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Now Joyce , This sounds like a good idea but it is not ! .
We can easily identify the culture Baker represents but Aziz ?!!.
Here are few facts about Aziz that will help me to communicate my
point :
1. Tareq Aziz is a Christian !! ( I wonder how many of you knew
about this ) So Aziz can not possibly represent Islam or Islamic
culture .
2. Baath Arab socialist Party , which is the ruling and only party
in Iraq and Syria was founded by a Christian called Mecheal Aflaq
( I am not sure of the English spelling of that name) . The big
surprise is that this Mecheal married Sara the daughter of Golda
Maeer(spelling?), the late prime minister of Israel !!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( never ending !!!) and when
we say Israel is behind the whole thing they say you always
imagine
Israel behind every evil . Maybe I am over doing it but I think
this time I have a point . Was Micheal a Mosad agent ?
3. The Baath party is completely secular , they do not beleive in
religions but may use it as a means for reaching thier goals and
manipulating the masses
I do not know about where Aziz was educated but I think most probably
somewhere in the West so if that is so I do not think he can be taken
to
represent Arab culture either . In fact Iraq as a whole is not a good
representative of Arabs because of the continuous instability of the
country and its interaction with Persian culture .
That is why ,Joyce I think if you show the video tapes to your
students
you will either mislead them , or at least confuse them and in
either
case , the education goal is not reached . Rethink about it
P.S. : Can any body provide more information about the Baath party
and
about its mysterious founder . I think we can understand how
Saddam think by going through this exercise .Saddam thinks and
speaks highly of that man .
P.S. 2. : Thanks Joyce for the private letter , I have few comments
on
it but let it be later and in private .
Peace
Abubakr Esshack
svet.92dpozaric,
******************************
Ti crnci u Americi su nešto MALO kulturniji od svojih dalekih
rodjaka u Africi, iz prostog razloga što su sada već generacijama
živeli sa belcima u njihovoj kulturi. Baš me interesuje koliko bi crnci
napredovali da ih belci nisu kolonizovali ili doveli u Ameriku...
I još ima ljudi koji pričaju protiv aparthejda! Pa da nije bilo
tih belaca u Južnoafričkoj republici, oni Crnci bi još uvek čučali na
granama!
******************************
Ti Crnci su zivjeli u kolonijama bez kojih Bijelci - kolonizatori ne
bi imali jeftinu radnu snagu koja im je (između ostalog) omogućila da
steknu određen stupanj razvoja. Uostalom, i čidove kao narod
antisemiti proganjaju i nipodaštavaju baš kao i ti Crnce, pa svejedno
ti čidovi, kako netko ovdje reče, drže pola New Yorka u šapama. Da li
zato što su zaostali, glupi i primitivni, upravo sišli sa grane ?
A ogroman broj uspješnih Crnaca je za svoj uspjeh vjerojatno dužan
zahvalnost činjenici da se u određeno vrijeme našao u blizini
Bijelaca koji su mu na neki način prenijeli svoju inteligenciju i
savršenstvo ?
******************************
Sve to o rasnoj ravnopravnosti je trenutna moda - samo će vreme
pokazati da su "nazadni" rasistički stavovi ipak tačni.
******************************
Zaista ne znam što da kažem na ovu tvoju tvrdnju. Otkad pratim Sezam,
neprestano tjeraš diskusije u neku krajnost, što je i ovoga puta
slučaj. Dosta sam pratio diskusije sa drugih svjetskih bbs-ova,
i na dosta njih sam primijetio razne nacionaliste i rasiste sa
argumentima sličnima tvojim. Zaključujem da sa njima jednostavno ne
vrijedi raspravljati, kao što se ni sa Hitlerom nije moglo.
**********************************
Don't get me wrong: ne kažem ja da su oni manje ljudi nego mi,
ali su intelektualno inferiorni u odnosu na belce.
**********************************
Ili si strahovito dvoličan ili uopće nemaš pojma o tome što govoriš !
Jer, ti upravo kažeš da su oni manje ljudi od nas. Ja ne znam po
čemu. Pogotovo ne od rasista koji predstavljaju sve ono najcrnje što
je ljudska povijest izrodila.
DP
svet.93dpozaric,
*******************************
Izvini, ali da li si nekada bio u bilo kojoj Arapskoj zemlji?
*******************************
Ne, nisam, ali mi opće obrazovanje i stupanj kulture koju posjedujem
dozvoljava da stvari shvatim onakvima kakve jesu, kao i da razlikujem
normalan od nenormalnog načina razmišljanja.
*******************************
Vidiš, ja sam bio više puta, i mislim da znam o čemu pričam --
i to nisam bio u nekoj "bedi" kao što je Iran, Irak itd. već u UAE,
koji su najkulturnija i najbogatija Arapska zemlja (za pravo čudo,
nemaju ni kapi nafte, ali imaju pitke VODE!! ;) i video sam kakvi su to
fanatici!
******************************
I to što si posjetio neku arapsku zemlju ti daje za pravo da na takav
način sudiš o svim Crncima i Arapima ?
Ja sam bio po Italiji (npr) vjerojatno toliko puta koliko ti nikad
nećeš biti, sve i da preseliš tamo, pa opet mi ne pada na pamet da
generaliziram bilo što u pogledu inteligencije ili bilo kog drugog
atributa Talijana. A ima i tamo, a bogami i kod nas veće bijede od
Irana i Iraka zajedno.
*******************************
A kada po Jugi bude više džamija od crkava, pitaću te šta ćeš
misliti o Arapima...
*******************************
O Arapima ću uvijek isto misliti, a promijenit ću eventualno
mišljenje o grupi Muslimana koja bude kriva za to što je do toga
eventualno došlo i u skladu s time se i ponašati.
Zanima me samo na što si ti toliko ponosan kod sebe kad si u stanju
čitave rase na tako brutalan način nipodaštavati ? Koje su tvoje
"nad-crnačke" kvalitete ?
Ti ne samo da si užasno nazadan, nego i prilično ograničen kako sam
slobodan primijetiti, a osjećam da i ostali ovdje misle slično. Nadam
se da će se to ispoljiti u vidu reakcija na ovih tvojih nekoliko
zadnjih poruka u FORUM konferenciji.
Pokušao si sa revolucijom u .najbolji, i nisi nam ništa novo dokazao.
čelite li ti i tvoji pajtosi sada uvjeriti ostale kako je Hitleru
trebalo dati Nobelovu nagradu za mir ?
Osobno se zaista zgražam nad sličnim mišljenjima, pa i onom vcalica
kojeg sam osobno upoznao i za kojeg bih ruku bio dao da ne može takvo
što izustiti. Pa ipak, čovjek je samo čovjek... na žalost...
DP
svet.94dejanr,
>> i da nam lupaju packe u stilu:"SAD su vrlo zabrinute zbog onoga sto se
>> desava u Jugoslaviji".Sta mene briga sta SAD misle...Vidis,to nikad
>> nisi mogao cuti od Rusa...
:))))))))))))))) žak ni 1948... kad su bili toliko zabrinuti za nas da
su nas skoro "posetili"...
A po pitanju "šta mene briga šta SAD misle", nije to baš tako jednostavno.
Zaista, ne mora te biti briga šta misle ali ako misle nešto loše, oni lepo
saseku kredite. A onda ti nemaš šta da jedeš i počinje da te bude briga.
žovek koga neko izdržava itekako mora da razmišlja o tome šta taj o
njemu misli...
svet.95dejanr,
>> Dalje,meni je ovo vec dosadilo (mada sam ja kriv za ovu raspravu o
>> Sovjetima)...Jedino sto je interesantno jeste to sto su neki ljudi
>> toliko kivni na ovaj Socijalizam da bi izdali sve sto je sveto da
>> se domognu zapada...
Zanimljivo je to. U doba kada smo mi bili u pubertetu sa svih strana
su nam trubili o socijalizmu, internacionalizmu, o eksplataciji koju
donosi kapitalizam, o zlu zvanom imperijalizam, o dekadenciji, o
samoupravljanju, jednakosti među ljudima, o nesvrstanima, braći
Arapima itd, itd. I onda, naravno, u mnogima od nas je morao da
proradi "bunt" tih godina pa da se "zaljubimo" u Zapad i u kapitalizam,
a da gajimo odgovarajuće osećaje prema Rusima, Crncima, Arapima itd.
Sasvim je moguće da je to formiralo i neke naše sadašnje stavove.
Sada se kolo sreće okrenulo. Ruska imperija se raspada u sopstvenoj
truleži, Evropa se oslobodila, nesvrstani raspali, planska privreda
pokazala potpuno inferiorna tržišnoj (tj. principu slobode inicijative
uz umereno uplitanje države) itd. Današlji mladi očito moraju da se
pobune protiv svega postojećeg pa dakle da veličaju "onaj drugi" model,
na žalost sa malo ili nimalo argumenata. Nadam se samo da to neće formirati
i njihove buduće stavove jer povratka na "bivše" sigurno nema u godinama
koje dolaze (bar se nadam... ;)
svet.96dejanr,
Izgleda da je rat u Zalivu neminovan, pitanje samo kada... Sutra uveče?
Ili će sačekati još par dana?
svet.97kale,
>> Pola od vas su muslimani i ostali Turci.
>> E ja vala nisam! Ja sam pravi pravcati SLOVEN, i nijedan
>> Turčin mi nije "stigao" babu ili prababu... ;))))
Pa, možda neki naočiti Turčin nije uspeo da "pobegne"? ;)
Pod pretpostavkom da si čisti Srbin (ili već šta si), je li to
dobro ili loše?
Pozdrav, Kale
svet.98kale,
>> Don't get me wrong: ne kažem ja da su oni manje ljudi nego mi,
>> ali su intelektualno inferiorni u odnosu na belce.
Ako je osoba A pametnija, lepša, bogatija, duhovitija, itd. od
osobe B, a pri tom je osoba A i kulturna, onda osoba A neće
potencirati svoju superiornost nad osobom B.
Primitivnoj i iskompleksiranoj osobi svaki kriterijum (pa i
iskonstruisan) koji je uzdiže iznad drugih znači mnogo.
Pozdrav, Kale
svet.99bojt,
>> Osobno se zaista zgražam nad sličnim mišljenjima, pa i onom
>> vcalica kojeg sam osobno upoznao i za kojeg bih ruku bio dao
>> da ne može takvo što izustiti. Pa ipak, čovjek je samo
>> čovjek... na žalost...
vcalic se u onoj poruci šalio (ustvari na jedan neobičan način
replicirao laniku - barem sam ja tog ubedjenja) i nije mi jasno
kako je samo ovoliki broj ljudi uspeo da navuče...
Možda bi WR mogao da da i zvanično saopštenje...
svet.100dejanr,
PLO javlja da je Abu Ijad ubijen u Tunisu... jel se to Izrael sprema za rat u
Zalivu?
svet.103dpozaric,
****************
vcalic se u onoj poruci šalio (ustvari na jedan neobičan način
replicirao laniku - barem sam ja tog ubedjenja) i nije mi jasno
kako je samo ovoliki broj ljudi uspeo da navuče...
Možda bi WR mogao da da i zvanično saopštenje...
****************
Ma ništa nije gotovo dok nije zaista gotovo, pa ni ja nisam navučen
jer se, eto, još uvijek pitam da li je moguće da WR to i tako misli.
Ja osobno, kao što rekoh, nisam sklon u to vjerovati jer mislim da
sam ga dovoljno upoznao da to mogu reći. Nisi valjda pomislio da sam
ja WR-a otpisao ??? :))))))
A bilo bi dobro da za one koji ga ne poznaju napiše nešto o tome jer
bi ga mnogi mogli zamrziti zbog toga. :))
DP
svet.104dpozaric,
***********************
PLO javlja da je Abu Ijad ubijen u Tunisu... jel se to Izrael sprema za rat u
Zalivu?
***********************
Sirija traži od Izraela (a i ne samo Sirija) da ne reagira na
eventualni napad Iraka, no ja mislim da je to što Arapi očekuju čista
utopija. Tko se ne bi branio od napada ? Arapima nije drago što
krivovjernici imaju svete gradove u svojoj državi a i zbog drugih
razloga koje znamo postoji netrpeljivost, kako s jedne tako i s druge
strane i zato je teško očekivati da do protunapada neće doći.
Kao što sam već napisao, ja nisam za istrebljenje Arapa, ali mislim
da je ipak u neku ruku dobro što je do rata došlo (?) jer treba
pokazati Sadamu i sličnima (ne narodu već vlastima) da se ne može
više ponavljati hitlerizam bilo koje vrste. Nacizam i boljševizam su
najgore tekovine ovog stoljeća i treba ih svakako istrijebiti. Sa
prvim se uspjelo jer je nanio štetu cijelom svijetu, drugi je
osakatio "samo" polovicu pa se to toliko i ne osjeća kod onih koji
nešto mogu poduzeti. No, nadam se da neće biti potrebno da nam i
boljševizam i novi "Sadamizam" donesu toliko zla koliko nacizam da
shvatimo da nešto protiv toga treba poduzeti.
Konačno je došlo do evidentnog rezultata na pomirenju blokova, a već
izbija frka u Zaljevu i u CCCP. No, i da nema, toga, mi bi svjestki
mir već nekako zaje.ali, ako ničim drugim onda Kninom i našim
balkanskim bedastoćama.
DP
svet.105djovicevic,
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│ January 13, 1991 │
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│ Number 292 │
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│ COMMUNICATION RESEARCH AND THEORY NETWORK │
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│ Edited by Tom Benson, Penn State University │
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CONTENTS --
-- Metaphor and War (George Lakoff)
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
The following is forwarded from:
> From: dst@dst.boltz.cs.cmu.edu (Dave Touretzky)
> Newsgroups: comp.ai
> Keywords: metaphor, cognitive psychology
> Date: 31 Dec 90 08:01:30 GMT
> Organization: Carnegie-Mellon University, CS/RI
To Friends and Colleagues on the Net:
From George Lakoff,
Professor of Linguistics,
University of California at Berkeley
(lakoff@cogsci.berkeley.edu)
January 15 is getting very close. As things now stand, President
Bush seems to have convinced most of the country that
war in the gulf is morally justified, and that
it makes sense to think of ``winning'' such a
war.
I have just completed a study of the way the war has
been justified. I have found that the justification is
based very largely on a metaphorical system
of thought in general use for understanding foreign policy.
I have analyzed the system, checked it to see what
the metaphors hide, and have checked to the best of my
ability to see whether the metaphors fit the situation in the
gulf, even if one accepts them. So far as I can see,
the justification for war, point by point,
is anything but clear.
The paper I have written is relatively short -- 7,000 words.
Yet it is far too long for the op-ed pages, and January
15 is too close for journal or magazine publication.
The only alternative I have for getting these ideas out
is via the various computer networks.
While there is still time, it is vital that debate over
the justification for war be seriously revived.
I am therefore asking your help. Please look over the
enclosed paper. If you find it of value, please
send it on to members of your newsgroup, to friends,
and to other newsgroups.
Feel free to distribute it to anyone interested.
More importantly, if you feel strongly about this issue,
start talking and writing about it yourself.
Computer networks have never before played an important
role in a matter of vital public importance. The time has come.
The media have failed to question what should be questioned.
It is up to us to do so. There are a lot of us connected by
these networks, and together we have enormous influence.
Just imagine the media value of a major computerized debate over
the impending war!
We have a chance to participate in the greatest experiment
ever conducted in vital, widespread, instantaneous democratic
communication.
Tens of thousands of lives are at stake.
During the next two weeks
there is nothing more important that we can send over these
networks than a fully open and informed exchange of views
about the war.
Here is the first contribution. Pass it on!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Metaphor and War
The Metaphor System Used to Justify War in the Gulf
George Lakoff Linguistics Department University of California at
Berkeley (lakoff@cogsci.berkeley.edu)
Metaphors can kill. The discourse over whether we should go to
war in the gulf is a panorama of metaphor. Secretary of State
Baker sees Saddam as ``sitting on our economic lifeline.''
President Bush sees him as having a ``stranglehold'' on our econ-
omy. General Schwartzkopf characterizes the occupation of Kuwait
as a ``rape'' that is ongoing. The President says that the US is
in the gulf to ``protect freedom, protect our future, and protect
the innocent'', and that we must ``push Saddam Hussein back.''
Saddam is seen as Hitler. It is vital, literally vital, to
understand just what role metaphorical thought is playing in
bringing us to the brink of war. Metaphorical thought, in it-
self, is neither good nor bad; it is simply commonplace and ines-
capable. Abstractions and enormously complex situations are rou-
tinely understood via metaphor. Indeed, there is an extensive,
and mostly unconscious, system of metaphor that we use automati-
cally and unreflectively to understand complexities and abstrac-
tions. Part of this system is devoted to understanding interna-
tional relations and war. We now know enough about this system to
have an idea of how it functions. The metaphorical understanding
of a situation functions in two parts. First, there is a
widespread, relatively fixed set of metaphors that structure how
we think. For example, a decision to go to war might be seen as
a form of cost-benefit analysis, where war is justified when the
costs of going to war are less than the costs of not going to
war. Second, there is a set of metaphorical definitions that that
allow one to apply such a metaphor to a particular situation. In
this case, there must be a definition of ``cost'', including a
means of comparing relative ``costs''. The use of a metaphor
with a set of definitions becomes pernicious when it hides reali-
ties in a harmful way. It is important to distinguish what is
metaphorical from what is not. Pain, dismemberment, death, star-
vation, and the death and injury of loved ones are not metaphori-
cal. They are real and in a war, they could afflict tens,
perhaps hundreds of thousands, of real human beings, whether Ira-
qi, Kuwaiti, or American.
War as Politics; Politics as Business
Military and international relations strategists do use a cost-
benefit analysis metaphor. It comes about through a metaphor that
is taken as definitional by most strategic thinkers in the area
of international politics. Clausewitz's Metaphor: WAR IS POLI-
TICS PURSUED BY OTHER MEANS. Karl von Clausewitz was a Prussian
general who perceived war in terms of political cost-benefit
analysis. Each nation-state has political objectives, and war
may best serve those objectives. The political ``gains'' are to
to be weighed against acceptable ``costs.'' When the costs of war
exceed the political gains, the war should cease. There is anoth-
er metaphor implicit here: POLITICS IS BUSINESS where efficient
political management is seen as akin to efficient business
management. As in a well-run business, a well-run government
should keep a careful tally of costs and gains. This metaphor
for characterizing politics, together with Clausewitz's metaphor,
makes war a matter of cost-benefit analysis: defining beneficial
``objectives'', tallying the ``costs'', and deciding whether
achieving the objectives is ``worth'' the costs. The New York
Times, on November 12, 1990, ran a front-page story announcing
that ``a national debate has begun as to whether the United
States should go to war in the Persian Gulf.'' The Times
described the debate as defined by what I have called
Clausewitz's metaphor (though it described the metaphor as
literal), and then raised the question, ``What then is the
nation's political object in the gulf and what level of sacrifice
is it worth?'' The ``debate'' was not over whether Clausewitz's
metaphor was appropriate, but only over how various analysts cal-
culated the relative gains and losses. The same has been true of
the hearings of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, where
Clausewitz's metaphor provides the framework within which most
discussion has taken place. The broad acceptance of Clausewitz's
metaphor raises vital questions: What, exactly, makes it a meta-
phor rather than a literal truth? Why does it seem so natural to
foreign policy experts? How does it fit into the overall meta-
phor system for understanding foreign relations and war? And,
most importantly, what realities does it hide? To answer these
questions, let us turn to the system of metaphorical thought most
commonly used by the general public in comprehending internation-
al politics. What follows is a two-part discussion of the role
of metaphorical reasoning about the gulf crisis. The first part
lays out the central metaphor systems used in reasoning about the
crisis: both the system used by foreign policy experts and the
system used by the public at large. The second part discusses how
the system has been applied to the crisis in the gulf.
Part 1: The Systems
The State-as-Person System
A state is conceptualized as a person, engaging in social rela-
tions within a world community. Its land-mass is its home. It
lives in a neighborhood, and has neighbors, friends and enemies.
States are seen as having inherent dispositions: they can be
peaceful or aggressive, responsible or irresponsible, industrious
or lazy.
Well-being is wealth. The general well-being of a state is under-
stood in economic terms: its economic health. A serious threat
to economic health can thus be seen as a death threat. To the
extent that a nation's economy depends on foreign oil, that oil
supply becomes a `lifeline' (reinforced by the image of an oil
pipeline).
Strength for a state is military strength.
Maturity for the person-state is industrialization. Unindustri-
alized nations are `underdeveloped', with industrialization as a
natural state to be reached. Third-world nations are thus imma-
ture children, to be taught how to develop properly or discip-
lined if they get out of line. Nations that fail to industrial-
ize at a rate considered normal are seen as akin to retarded
children and judged as ``backward'' nations.
Rationality is the maximization of self-interest.
There is an implicit logic to the use of these metaphors: Since
it is in the interest of every person to be as strong and healthy
as possible, a rational state seeks to maximize wealth and mili-
tary might. Violence can further self-interest. It can be
stopped in three ways: Either a balance of power, so that no one
in a neighborhood is strong enough to threaten anyone else. Or
the use of collective persuasion by the community to make
violence counter to self-interest. Or a cop strong enough to
deter violence or punish it. The cop should act morally, in the
community's interest, and with the sanction of the community as a
whole. Morality is a matter of accounting, of keeping the moral
books balanced. A wrongdoer incurs a debt, and he must be made to
pay. The moral books can be balanced by a return to the situation
prior to the wrongdoing, by giving back what has been taken, by
recompense, or by punishment. Justice is the balancing of the
moral books. War in this metaphor is a fight between two people,
a form of hand-to-hand combat. Thus, the US might seek to ``push
Iraq back out of Kuwait'' or ``deal the enemy a heavy blow,'' or
``deliver a knockout punch.'' A just war is thus a form of combat
for the purpose of settling moral accounts. The most common
discourse form in the West where there is combat to settle moral
accounts is the classic fairy tale. When people are replaced by
states in such a fairy tale, what results is a scenario for a
just war.
The Fairy Tale of the Just War
Cast of characters: A villain, a victim, and a hero. The victim
and the hero may be the same person. The scenario: A crime is
committed by the villain against an innocent victim (typically an
assault, theft, or kidnapping). The offense occurs due to an im-
balance of power and creates a moral imbalance. The hero either
gathers helpers or decides to go it alone. The hero makes sacri-
fices; he undergoes difficulties, typically making an arduous
heroic journey, sometimes across the sea to a treacherous ter-
rain. The villain is inherently evil, perhaps even a monster, and
thus reasoning with him is out of the question. The hero is left
with no choice but to engage the villain in battle. The hero de-
feats the villain and rescues the victim. The moral balance is
restored. Victory is achieved. The hero, who always acts honor-
ably, has proved his manhood and achieved glory. The sacrifice
was worthwhile. The hero receives acclaim, along with the grati-
tude of the victim and the community.
The fairy tale has an asymmetry built into it. The hero is moral
and courageous, while the villain is amoral and vicious. The hero
is rational, but though the villain may be cunning and calculat-
ing, he cannot be reasoned with. Heroes thus cannot negotiate
with villains; they must defeat them. The enemy-as-demon metaphor
arises as a consequence of the fact that we understand what a
just war is in terms of this fairy tale. The most natural way to
justify a war on moral grounds is to fit this fairy tale struc-
ture to a given situation. This is done by metaphorical defini-
tion, that is, by answering the questions: Who is the victim? Who
is the villain? Who is the hero? What is the crime? What counts
as victory? Each set of answers provides a different filled-out
scenario. As the gulf crisis developed, President Bush tried to
justify going to war by the use of such a scenario. At first, he
couldn't get his story straight. What happened was that he was
using two different sets of metaphorical definitions, which
resulted in two different scenarios: The Rescue Scenario: Iraq is
villain, the US is hero, Kuwait is victim, the crime is kidnap
and rape. The Self-Defense Scenario: Iraq is villain, the US is
hero, the US and other industrialized nations are victims, the
crime is a death threat, that is, a threat to economic health.
The American people could not accept the second scenario, since
it amounted to trading lives for oil. The administration has
settled on the first, and that seems to have been accepted by the
public, the media, and Congress as providing moral justification
for going to war.
The Ruler-for-State Metonymy
There is a metonymy that goes hand-in-hand with the State-as-
Person metaphor:
THE RULER STANDS FOR THE STATE
Thus, we can refer to Iraq by referring to Saddam Hussein, and so
have a single person, not just an amorphous state, to play the
villain in the just war scenario. It is this metonymy that is in-
voked when the President says ``We have to get Saddam out of
Kuwait.'' Incidentally, the metonymy only applies to those
leaders perceived as rulers. Thus, it would be strange for us,
but not for the Iraqis, to describe an American invasion of
Kuwait by saying, ``George Bush marched into Kuwait.''
The Experts' Metaphors
Experts in international relations have an additional system of
metaphors that are taken as defining a ``rational'' approach.
The principal ones are the Rational Actor metaphor and
Clausewitz's metaphor, which are commonly taught as truths in
courses on international relations. We are now in a position to
show precisely what is metaphorical about Clausewitz's metaphor.
To do so, we need to look at a system of metaphors that is
presupposed by Clausewitz's metaphor. We will begin with an
everyday system of metaphors for understanding causation:
The Causal Commerce System
The Causal Commerce system is a way to comprehend actions intend-
ed to achieve positive effects, but which may also have negative
effects. The system is composed of three metaphors:
Causal Transfer: An effect is an object transferred from a cause
to an affected party. For example, sanctions are seen as ``giv-
ing'' Iraq economic difficulties. Correspondingly, economic dif-
ficulties for Iraq are seen as ``coming from'' the sanctions.
This metaphor turns purposeful actions into transfers of objects.
The Exchange Metaphor for Value: The value of something is what
you are willing to exchange for it. Whenever we ask whether it
is ``worth'' going to war to get Iraq out of Kuwait, we are using
the Exchange Metaphor for Value plus the Causal Transfer meta-
phor. Well-being is Wealth: Things of value constitute wealth.
Increases in well-being are ``gains''; decreases in well-being
are ``costs.'' The metaphor of Well-being-as-Wealth has the ef-
fect of making qualitiative effects quantitative. It not only
makes qualitatively different things comparable, it even provides
a kind of arithmetic calculus for adding up costs and gains. Tak-
en together, these three metaphors portray actions as commercial
transactions with costs and gains. Seeing actions as transac-
tions is crucial to applying ideas from economics to actions in
general.
Risks
A risk is an action taken to achieve a positive effect, where the
outcome is uncertain and where there is also a significant proba-
bility of a negative effect. Since Causal Commerce allows one to
see positive effects of actions as ``gains'' and negative effects
as ``costs'', it becomes natural to see a risky action metaphori-
cally as a financial risk of a certain type, namely, a gamble.
Risks are Gambles
In gambling to achieve certain ``gains'', there are ``stakes''
that one can ``lose''. When one asks what is ``at stake'' in go-
ing to war, one is using the metaphors of Causal Commerce and
Risks-as-Gambles. These are also the metaphors that President
Bush uses when he refers to strategic moves in the gulf as a
``poker game'' where it would be foolish for him to ``show his
cards'', that is, to make strategic knowledge public.
The Mathematicization of Metaphor
The Causal Commerce and Risks-as-Gambles metaphors lie behind our
everyday way of understanding risky actions as gambles. At this
point, mathematics enters the picture, since there is mathematics
of gambling, namely, probability theory, decision theory, and
game theory. Since the metaphors of Causal Commerce and Risks-
as-Gambles are so common in our everyday thought, their metaphor-
ical nature often goes unnoticed. As a result, it is not uncom-
mon for social scientists to think that the mathematics of gam-
bling literally applies to all forms of risky action, and that it
can provide a general basis for the scientific study of risky ac-
tion, so that risk can be minimized.
Rational Action
Within the social sciences, especially in economics, it is common
to see a rational person as someone who acts in his own self-
interest, that is, to maximize his own well-being. Hard-core ad-
vocates of this view may even see altruistic action as being ones
self-interest if there is a value in feeling righteous about al-
truism and in deriving gratitude from others. In the Causal Com-
merce system, where well-being is wealth, this view of Rational
Action translates metaphorically into maximizing gains and minim-
izing losses. In other words:
Rationality is Profit Maximization
This metaphor presupposes Causal Commerce plus Risks-as-Gambles,
and brings with it the mathematics of gambling as applied to ri-
sky action. It has the effect of turning specialists in mathemat-
ical economics into ``scientific'' specialists in acting ration-
ally so as to minimize risk and cost while maximizing gains.
Suppose we now add the State-as-Person metaphor to the
Rationality-as-Profit-Maximization metaphor. The result is:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
NASTAVAK U SLEDECOJ PORUCI !
svet.106djovicevic,
International Politics is Business
Here the state is a Rational Actor, whose actions are transac-
tions and who is engaged in maximizing gains and minimizing
costs. This metaphor brings with it the mathematics of cost-
benefit calculation and game theory, which is commonly taught in
graduate programs in international relations. Clausewitz's meta-
phor, the major metaphor preferred by international relations
strategists, presupposes this system. Clausewitz's Metaphor: War
is Politics, pursued by other means. Since politics is business,
war becomes a matter of maximizing political gains and minimizing
losses. In Clausewitzian terms, war is justified when there is
more to be gained by going to war than by not going to war.
Morality is absent from the Clausewitzian equation, except when
there a political cost to acting immorally or a political gain
from acting morally. Clausewitz's metaphor only allows war to be
justified on pragmatic, not moral, grounds. To justify war on
both moral and pragmatic grounds, the Fairy Tale of the Just War
and Clausewitz's metaphor must mesh: The ``worthwhile sacri-
fices'' of the fairy tale must equal the Clausewitzian ``costs''
and the ``victory'' in the fairy tale must equal the Clausewitzi-
an ``gains.'' Clausewitz's metaphor is the perfect expert's meta-
phor, since it requires specialists in political cost-benefit
calculation. It sanctions the use of the mathematics of econom-
ics, probability theory, decision theory, and game theory in the
name of making foreign policy rational and scientific.
Clausewitz's metaphor is commonly seen as literally true. We are
now in a position to see exactly what makes it metaphorical.
First, it uses the State-as-Person metaphor. Second, it turns
qualitative effects on human beings into quantifiable costs and
gains, thus seeing political action as economics. Third, it sees
rationality as profit-making. Fourth, it sees war in terms of
only one dimension of war, that of political expediency, which is
in turn conceptualized as business.
War as Violent Crime
To bear in mind what is hidden by Clausewitz's metaphor, we
should consider an alternative metaphor that is _.n_.o_.t used by pro-
fessional strategists nor by the general public to understand war
as we engage in it. WAR IS VIOLENT CRIME: MURDER, ASSAULT, KID-
NAPPING, ARSON, RAPE, AND THEFT. Here, war is understood only in
terms of its moral dimension, and not, say, its political or
economic dimension. The metaphor highlights those aspects of war
that would otherwise be seen as major crimes. There is an Us-
Them asymmetry between the public use of Clausewitz's metaphor
and the War-as-Crime metaphor. The Iraqi invasion of Kuwait is
reported on in terms of murder, theft and rape. The planned Amer-
ican invasion is never discussed in terms of murder, assault, and
arson. Moreover, the US plans for war are seen, in Clausewitzian
terms, as rational calculation. But the Iraqi invasion is dis-
cussed not as a rational move by Saddam, but as the work of a
madman. We see US as rational, moral, and courageous and Them as
criminal and insane.
War as a Competitive Game
It has long been noted that we understand war as a competitive
game like chess, or as a sport, like football or boxing. It is a
metaphor in which there is a clear winner and loser, and a clear
end to the game. The metaphor highlights strategic thinking,
team work, preparedness, the spectators in the world arena, the
glory of winning and the shame of defeat. This metaphor is taken
very seriously. There is a long tradition in the West of train-
ing military officers in team sports and chess. The military is
trained to win. This can lead to a metaphor conflict, as it did
in Vietnam, since Clausewitz's metaphor seeks to maximize geopol-
itical gains, which may or may not be consistent with absolute
military victory. The situation at present is that the public has
accepted the rescue scenario of the just war fairy tale as pro-
viding moral justification. The president, for internal political
reasons, has accepted the competitive game metaphor as taking
precedence over Clausewitz's metaphor: If he must choose, he will
go for the military win over maximizing geopolitical gains. The
testimony of the experts before Congress falls largely within
Clausewitz's metaphor. Much of it is testimony about what will
maximize gains and minimize losses. For all that been questioned
in the Congressional hearings, these metaphors have not. It im-
portant to see what they hide.
Is Saddam Irrational?
The villain in the Fairy Tale of the Just War may be cunning, but
he cannot be rational. You just do not reason with a demon, nor
do you enter into negotiations with him. The logic of the meta-
phor demands that Saddam be irrational. But is he? Administra-
tion policy is confused on the issue. Clausewitz's metaphor, as
used by strategists, assumes that the enemy is rational: He too
is maximizing gains and minimizing costs. Our strategy from the
outset has been to ``increase the cost'' to Saddam. That assumes
he is rational and is maximizing his self-interest. At the same
time, he is being called irrational. The nuclear weapons argument
depends on it. If he is rational, he should follow the logic of
deterrence. We have thousands of hydrogen bombs in warheads. Is-
rael is estimated to have between 100 and 200 deliverable atomic
bombs. It would take Saddam at least eight months and possibly
five years before he had a crude, untested atomic bomb on a
truck. The most popular estimate for even a few deliverable nu-
clear warheads is ten years. The argument that he would not be
deterred by our nuclear arsenal and by Israel's assumes irra-
tionality. The Hitler analogy also assumes that Saddam is a vil-
lainous madman. The analogy presupposes a Hitler myth, in which
Hitler too was an irrational demon, rather than a rational self-
serving brutal politician. In the myth, Munich was a mistake and
Hitler could have been stopped early on had England entered the
war then. Military historians disagree as to whether the myth is
true. Be that as it may, the analogy does not hold. Whether or
not Saddam is Hitler, Iraq isn't Germany. It has 17 million peo-
ple, not 70 million. It is economically weak, not strong. It
simply is not a threat to the world. Saddam is certainly im-
moral, ruthless, and brutal, but there is no evidence that he is
anything but rational. Everything he has done, from assassinat-
ing political opponents, to using poison gas against his politi-
cal enemies, the Kurds, to invading Kuwait can be see as further-
ing his own self-interest.
Kuwait as Victim
The classical victim is innocent. To the Iraquis, Kuwait was any-
thing but an innocent ingenue. The war with Iran virtually ban-
krupted Iraq. Iraq saw itself as having fought that war partly
for the benefit of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, where Shiite citizens
supported Khomeini's Islamic Revolution. Kuwait had agreed to
help finance the war, but after the war, the Kuwaitis insisted on
repayment of the ``loan.'' Kuwaitis had invested hundreds of bil-
lions in Europe, America and Japan, but would not invest in Iraq
after the war to help it rebuild. On the contrary, it began what
amounted to economic warfare against Iraq by overproducing its
oil quota to hold oil prices down. In addition, Kuwait had
drilled laterally into Iraqi territory in the Rumailah oil field
and had extracted oil from Iraqi territory. Kuwait further took
advantage of Iraq by buying its currency, but only at extremely
low exchange rates. Subsequently, wealthy Kuwaitis used that
Iraqi currency on trips to Iraq, where they bought Iraqi goods at
bargain rates. Among the things they bought most flamboyantly
were liquor and prostitutes-widows and orphans of men killed in
the war, who, because of the state of the economy, had no other
means of support. All this did not endear Kuwaitis to Iraqis,
who were suffering from over 70% inflation. Moreover, Kuwaitis
had long been resented for good reason by Iraqis and moslems from
other nations. Capital rich, but labor poor, Kuwait imported
cheap labor from other moslem countries to do its least pleasant
work. At the time of the invasion, there were 400,000 Kuwaiti ci-
tizens and 2.2 millions foreign laborers who were denied rights
of citizenry and treated by the Kuwaitis as lesser beings. In
short, to the Iraqis and to labor-exporting Arab countries,
Kuwait is badly miscast as a purely innocent victim. This does
not in any way justify the horrors perpetrated on the Kuwaitis by
the Iraqi army. But it is part of what is hidden when Kuwait is
cast as an innocent victim. The ``legitimate government'' that
we seek to reinstall is an oppressive monarchy.
What is Victory?
In a fairy tale or a game, victory is well-defined. Once it is
achieved, the story or game is over. Neither is the case in the
gulf crisis. History continues, and ``victory'' makes sense only
in terms of continuing history. The president's stated objec-
tives are total Iraqi withdrawal and restoration of the Kuwaiti
monarchy. But no one believes the matter will end there, since
Saddam would still be in power with all of his forces intact.
General Powell said in his Senate testimony that if Saddam with-
drew, the US would have to ``strengthen the indigenous countries
of the region'' to achieve a balance of power. Presumably that
means arming Assad, who is every bit as dangerous as Saddam.
Would arming another villain count as victory? If we go to war,
what will constitute ``victory''? Suppose we conquer Iraq, wip-
ing out its military capability. How would Iraq be governed? No
puppet government that we set up could govern effectively since
it would be hated by the entire populace. Since Saddam has wiped
out all opposition, the only remaining effective government for
the country would be his Ba'ath party. Would it count as a victo-
ry if Saddam's friends wound up in power? If not, what other
choice is there? And if Iraq has no remaining military force, how
could it defend itself against Syria and Iran? It would certainly
not be a ``victory'' for us if either of them took over Iraq. If
Syria did, then Assad's Arab nationalism would become a threat.
If Iran did, then Islamic fundamentalism would become even more
powerful and threatening. It would seem that the closest thing
to a ``victory'' for the US in case of war would be to drive the
Iraqis out of Kuwait; destroy just enough of Iraq's military to
leave it capable of defending itself against Syria and Iran;
somehow get Saddam out of power, but let his Ba'ath party remain
in control of a country just strong enough to defend itself, but
not strong enough to be a threat; and keep the price of oil at a
reasonably low level. The problems: It is not obvious that we
could get Saddam out of power without wiping out most of Iraq's
military capability. We would have invaded an Arab country,
which would create vast hatred for us throughout the Arab world,
and would no doubt result in decades of increased terrorism and
lack of cooperation by Arab states. We would, by defeating an
Arab nationalist state, strengthen Islamic fundamentalism. Iraq
would remain a cruel dictatorship run by cronies of Saddam. By
reinstating the government of Kuwait, we would inflame the hatred
of the poor toward the rich throughout the Arab world, and thus
increase instability. And the price of oil would go through the
roof. Even the closest thing to a victory doesn't look very vic-
torious. In the debate over whether to go to war, very little
time has been spent clarifying what a victory would be. And if
``victory'' cannot be defined, neither can ``worthwhile sacri-
fice.''
The Arab Viewpoint
The metaphors used to conceptualize the gulf crisis hide the most
powerful political ideas in the Arab world: Arab nationalism and
Islamic fundamentalism. The first seeks to form a racially-based
all-Arab nation, the second, a theocratic all-Islamic state.
Though bitterly opposed to one another, they share a great deal.
Both are conceptualized in family terms, an Arab brotherhood and
an Islamic brotherhood. Both see brotherhoods as more legitimate
than existing states. Both are at odds with the state-as-person
metaphor, which sees currently existing states as distinct enti-
ties with a right to exist in perpetuity. Also hidden by our
metaphors is perhaps the most important daily concern throughout
the Arab world: Arab dignity. Both political movements are seen
as ways to achieve dignity through unity. The current national
boundaries are widely perceived as working against Arab dignity
in two ways: one internal and one external. The internal issue is
the division between rich and poor in the Arab world. Poor Arabs
see rich Arabs as rich by accident, by where the British happened
to draw the lines that created the contemporary nations of the
Middle East. To see Arabs metaphorically as one big family is to
suggest that oil wealth should belong to all Arabs. To many
Arabs, the national boundaries drawn by colonial powers are il-
legitimate, violating the conception of Arabs as a single
``brotherhood'' and impoverishing millions. To those impover-
ished millions, the positive side of Saddam's invasion of Kuwait
was that it challenged national borders and brought to the fore
the divisions between rich and poor that result from those lines
in the sand. If there is to be peace in the region, these divi-
sions must be addressed, say, by having rich Arab countries make
extensive investments in development that will help poor Arabs.
As long as the huge gulf between rich and poor exists in the Arab
world, a large number of poor Arabs will continue to see one of
the superstate solutions, either Arab nationalism or Islamic fun-
damentalism, as being in their self-interest, and the region will
continue to be unstable. The external issue is the weakness.
The current national boundaries keep Arab nations squabbling
among themselves and therefore weak relative to Western nations.
To unity advocates, what we call ``stability'' means continued
weakness. Weakness is a major theme in the Arab world, and is
often conceptualized in sexual terms, even more than in the West.
American officials, in speaking of the ``rape'' of Kuwait, are
conceptualizing a weak, defenseless country as female and a
strong militarily powerful country as male. Similarly, it is
common for Arabs to conceptualize the colonization and subsequent
domination of the Arab world by the West, especially the US, as
emasculation. An Arab proverb that is reported to be popular in
Iraq these days is that ``It is better to be a cock for a day
than a chicken for a year.'' The message is clear: It is better
to be male, that is, strong and dominant for a short period of
time than to be female, that is, weak and defenseless for a long
time. Much of the support for Saddam among Arabs is due to the
fact that he is seen as standing up to the US, even if only for a
while, and that there is a dignity in this. If upholding dignity
is an essential part of what defines Saddam's ``rational self-
interest'', it is vitally important for our government to know
this, since he may be willing to go to war to ``be a cock for a
day.'' The US does not have anything like a proper understanding
of the issue of Arab dignity. Take the question of whether Iraq
will come out of this with part of the Rumailah oil fields and
two islands giving it a port on the gulf. From Iraq's point of
view these are seen as economic necessities if Iraq is to re-
build. President Bush has spoken of this as ``rewarding aggres-
sion'', using the Third-World-Countries-As-Children metaphor,
where the great powers are grown-ups who have the obligation to
reward or punish children so as to make them behave properly.
This is exactly the attitude that grates on Arabs who want to be
treated with dignity. Instead of seeing Iraq as a sovereign na-
tion that has taken military action for economic purposes, the
president treats Iraq as if it were a child gone bad, who has be-
come the neighborhood bully and should be properly disciplined by
the grown-ups. The issue of the Rumailah oil fields and the two
islands has alternatively been discussed in the media in terms of
``saving face.'' Saving face is a very different concept than up-
holding Arab dignity and insisting on being treated as an equal,
not an inferior.
What is Hidden By Seeing the State as a Person?
The State-as-Person metaphor highlights the ways in which states
act as units, and hides the internal structure of the state.
Class structure is hidden by this metaphor, as is ethnic composi-
tion, religious rivalry, political parties, the ecology, the in-
fluence of the military and of corporations (especially multi-
national corporations). Consider ``national interest.'' It is in
a person's interest to be healthy and strong. The State-as-Person
metaphor translates this into a ``national interest'' of economic
health and military strength. But what is in the ``national in-
terest'' may or may not be in the interest of many ordinary ci-
tizens, groups, or institutions, who may become poorer as the GNP
rises and weaker as the military gets stronger. The ``national
interest'' is a metaphorical concept, and it is defined in Ameri-
ca by politicians and policy makers. For the most part, they are
influenced more by the rich than by the poor, more by large cor-
porations than by small business, and more by developers than
ecological activists. When President Bush argues that going to
war would ``serve our vital national interests'', he is using a
metaphor that hides exactly whose interests would be served and
whose would not. For example, poor people, especially blacks and
Hispanics, are represented in the military in disproportionately
large numbers, and in a war the lower classes and those ethnic
groups will suffer proportionally more casualties. Thus war is
less in the interest of ethnic minorities and the lower classes
than the white upper classes. Also hidden are the interests of
the military itself, which are served when war is justified.
Hopes that, after the cold war, the military might play a smaller
role have been dashed by the president's decision to prepare for
war. He was advised, as he should be, by the national security
council, which consists primarily of military men. War is so aw-
ful a prospect that one would not like to think that military
self-interest itself could help tilt the balance to a decision
for war. But in a democratic society, the question must be asked,
since the justifications for war also justify continued military
funding and an undiminished national political role for the mili-
tary.
Energy Policy
The State-as-Person metaphor defines health for the state in
economic terms, with our current understanding of economic health
taken as a given, including our dependence on foreign oil. Many
commentators have argued that a change in energy policy to make
us less dependent on foreign oil would be more rational than go-
ing to war to preserve our supply of cheap oil from the gulf.
This argument may have a real force, but it has no metaphorical
force when the definition of economic health is taken as fixed.
After all, you don't deal with an attack on your health by chang-
ing the definition of health. Metaphorical logic pushes a change
in energy policy out of the spotlight in the current crisis. I
do not want to give the impression that all that is involved here
is metaphor. Obviously there are powerful corporate interests
lined up against a fundamental restructuring of our national en-
ergy policy. What is sad is that they have a very compelling sys-
tem of metaphorical thought on their side. If the debate is
framed in terms of an attack on our economic health, one cannot
argue for redefining what economic health is without changing the
grounds for the debate. And if the debate is framed in terms of
rescuing a victim, then changes in energy policy seem utterly be-
side the point.
The ``Costs'' of War
Clausewitz's metaphor requires a calculation of the ``costs'' and
the ``gains'' of going to war. What, exactly, goes into that cal-
culation and what does not? Certainly American casualties, loss
of equipment, and dollars spent on the operation count as costs.
But Vietnam taught us that there are social costs: trauma to fam-
ilies and communities, disruption of lives, psychological effects
on veterans, long-term health problems, in addition to the cost
of spending our money on war instead of on vital social needs at
home. Also hidden are political costs: the enmity of Arabs for
many years, and the cost of increased terrorism. And barely dis-
cussed is the moral cost that comes from killing and maiming as a
way to settle disputes. And there is the moral cost of using a
``cost'' metaphor at all. When we do so, we quantify the effects
of war and thus hide from ourselves the qualitative reality of
pain and death. But those are costs to us. What is most ghoul-
ish about the cost-benefit calculation is that ``costs'' to the
other side count as ``gains'' for us. In Vietnam, the body counts
of killed Viet Cong were taken as evidence of what was being
``gained'' in the war. Dead human beings went on the profit side
of our ledger. There is a lot of talk of American deaths as
``costs'', but Iraqi deaths aren't mentioned. The metaphors of
cost-benefit accounting and the fairy tale villain lead us to de-
value of the lives of Iraqis, even when most of those actually
killed will not be villains at all, but simply innocent draftees
or reservists or civilians.
America as Hero
The classic fairy tale defines what constitutes a hero: it is a
person who rescues an innocent victim and who defeats and pun-
ishes a guilty and inherently evil villain, and who does so for
moral rather than venal reasons. If America starts a war, will it
be functioning as a hero? It will certainly not fit the profile
very well. First, one of its main goals will be to reinstate
``the legitimate government of Kuwait.'' That means reinstating
an absolute monarchy, where women are not accorded anything
resembling reasonable rights, and where 80% of the people living
in the country are foreign workers who do the dirtiest jobs and
are not accorded the opportunity to become citizens. This is not
an innocent victim whose rescue makes us heroic. Second, the ac-
tual human beings who will suffer from an all-out attack will,
for the most part, be innocent people who did not take part in
the atrocities in Kuwait. Killing and maiming a lot of innocent
bystanders in the process of nabbing a much smaller number of
villains does not make one much of a hero. Third, in the self-
defense scenario, where oil is at issue, America is acting in its
self-interest. But, in order to qualify as a legitimate hero in
the rescue scenario, it must be acting selflessly. Thus, there is
a contradiction between the self-interested hero of the self-
defense scenario and the purely selfless hero of the rescue
scenario. Fourth, America may be a hero to the royal families of
Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, but it will not be a hero to most Arabs.
Most Arabs do not think in terms of our metaphors. A great many
Arabs will see us as a kind of colonial power using illegitimate
force against an Arab brother. To them, we will be villains, not
heroes. America appears as classic hero only if you don't look
carefully at how the metaphor is applied to the situation. It is
here that the State-as-Person metaphor functions in a way that
hides vital truths. The State-as-Person metaphor hides the inter-
nal structure of states and allows us to think of Kuwait as a un-
itary entity, the defenseless maiden to be rescued in the fairy
tale. The metaphor hides the monarchical character of Kuwait,
and the way Kuwaitis treat women and the vast majority of the
people who live in their country. The State-as-Person metaphor
also hides the internal structures of Iraq, and thus hides the
actual people who will mostly be killed, maimed, or otherwise
harmed in a war. The same metaphor also hides the internal
structure of the US, and therefore hides the fact that is the
poor and minorities who will make the most sacrifices while not
getting any significant benefit. And it hides the main ideas that
drive Middle Eastern politics.
Things to Do
War would create much more suffering than it would alleviate, and
should be renounced in this case on humanitarian grounds. There
is no shortage of alternatives to war. Troops can be rotated out
and brought to the minimum level to deter an invasion of Saudi
Arabia. Economic sanctions can be continued. A serious system of
international inspections can be instituted to prevent the
development of Iraq's nuclear capacity. A certain amount of
``face-saving'' for Saddam is better than war: As part of a
compromise, the Kuwaiti monarchy can be sacrificed and elections
held in Kuwait. The problems of rich and poor Arabs must be ad-
dressed, with pressures placed on the Kuwaitis and others to in-
vest significantly in development to help poor Arabs. Balance of
power solutions within the region should always be seen as moves
toward reducing, not increasing armaments; positive economic in-
centives can used, together with the threat of refusal by us and
the Soviets to supply spare parts needed to keep hi-tech military
weaponry functional. If there is a moral to come out of the
Congressional hearings, it is that there are a lot of very
knowledgeable people in this country who have thought about al-
ternatives to war. They should be taken seriously.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
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+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
svet.107jtitov,
Ű│>A ko smo to "mi"
Nigde nisam pomenuo rečcu MI
svet.108jtitov,
>Prvo torta :
>pa onda i šlag :
A gde si ti video tortu bez šlaga???
svet.109jtitov,
>Rusi imaju dve najmocnije obavestajne sluzbe na svetu.To su KGB i
GRU...
Ma da nije ovaj Ogy neki špijun (bug) na Sezamu. Mnogo hvali nešto
Ruse.
>slazem se za ekonomsku situacijum
AHA, eto ga. Da nećeš možda njihov sistem da proguraš i u Jugi??
>Za godinu opet ce biti oni stari,naravno sa mnogo vise ljudske
slobode,para,i naravno sa
>kapitalistickim odnosima
NIKAD nisu bili oni "stari" i nikad neće imati ono o čemu pričaš.
Redovi u radnjama su kod njih bili od rata pa do danjašnjih dana.
Svojim očima sam video i to ne kao turista. Onaj ko iz feudalizma
skače pravo u socijalizam umire u teškoj agoniji.
svet.110jtitov,
>>Pola od vas su muslimani i ostali Turci.
> E ja vala nisam! Ja sam pravi pravcati SLOVEN
Ma da nisi ti možda kao Yu političari. žim neko nešto ukaki, odmah
demanti.
Nego, moje poruke nisu tu da nekog uvrede, omalovaže ili na neki
drugi način uznemire javnost. Poštujući ono što su sami tvorci
Sezama pisali po Računarima (umesto pametnijih stvari):
ZOVEM SEZAM DA SE ZEZAM
ja tako i postupam. Zovem Sezam da se zezam, bar kada su tako
ozbiljne teme u pitanju.
svet.111jtitov,
>===============================
> 2.91 FORUM:svet
> bradenkovic, 14.01.Pon 21:05, 3848 chr
> Odgovor na 2.88, lanik, 14.01.Pon 19:45
>---------------------------------------------------------
>Medjutim dali su svi u Iraku muslimani. Ja sam mislio da jesu, ali
----
Trebalo bi uvesti pravilo da samo pismeni imaju pravo da se muvaju
po Sezamu. Ovo je već po ko zna koji put da mnogopoštovani BR piše
upitnu rečcu DA LI zajedno. žoveče nauči pravopis pa onda diskutuj o
SVETu!!
svet.114bradenkovic,
Postovani kolega,
ja naravno imam sire vidike od tebe i sa razlogom se slazem d delimicno slazem
sa iznetim stavovima. JA vec nekoliko godina vodim borbu da nekolicinu
Arapa naucim elementarnim stvarima ali bez uspeha. Od njih sam naucio
raznorazne metode za iscrpljivanje nastvnika, bezbroj podvala, ali ni jeda
nije posteno naucio ono sto se od njih trazi. Mislio sam da je to anomalija
samo ovde, ali u diskusiji sa kolegama preko Bitnet-a nekoliko nastavnika
sa americkih univerziteta izlozilo je potpuno iste probleme (ukoliko ima
zainteresovanih mogu priloziti i diskusije na tu temu). Ukratko to je takav
soj koji je kroz istoriju skolovan da se kroz zivot probija prevarom i
raznoraznim mesetarenjem. Tragicno je da jedan narod u cijoj je postojbini
nastala ALGEBRA i nastao pojam ALGORITMA, ARAPSKI BROJNI SISTEM toliko
degradira i otudji se od tokova civilizacije. Od njih nemozemo ocekivati
nista dobro u skorijoj buducnosti.
Pozdrav
Boza.
Izvinjavam se za greske u ovoj i predhodnoj poruci koje pisem online.
svet.116ppekovic,
>Ma da nisi ti možda kao Yu političari. žim neko nešto ukaki, odmah
> demanti.
Pa neznam ko mi više liči na političara. Koliko sam
primetio, tvoj stil veoma nalikuje modernim političarima, a taj
stil je:
"Pljuj po drugima da bi bio najbolji"
>Nego, moje poruke nisu tu da nekog uvrede, omalovaže ili na neki
> drugi način uznemire javnost.
Možda ti nije bila namera da nekog uvrediš ili omalovažiš,
ali meni tvoje pojedine poruke baš liče na takvo što.
>Zovem Sezam da se zezam, bar kada su tako
>ozbiljne teme u pitanju.
Pa za to postoji posebna konferencija, ili ako si baš
navalio da otvorimo novu temu u FORUM-u, tema: JTITOV_SE_ZEZA, pa
da odma isprobam da li još uvek radi ona naredba, hm,... kako se
ono zove? ...
>Trebalo bi uvesti pravilo da samo pismeni imaju pravo da se muvaju
> po Sezamu. Ovo je već po ko zna koji put da mnogopoštovani BR piše
> upitnu rečcu DA LI zajedno. žoveče nauči pravopis pa onda diskutuj
>o SVETu!!
Kad smo kod nepismenosti, koliko ja znam, reči kojih nema u
rečniku srpskohrvatskoga književnog jezika a koje su reči iz
žargona, stavljaju se pod znake navoda. Npr. muvaju se piše sa
"muvaju". Inicijali se pišu sa tačkama iza svakog slova sa kojim
počinje ime ili prezime. Npr. BR se piše kao B.R. Posle čoveče,
koliko ja znam, piše se zarez. Ako hoćeš neku reč da istakneš onda
se ona stavlja pod znake navoda ili se sva slova reči pišu VELIKIM
slovima. Npr. SVETu se piše kao svetu ili SVETU. Možda je to "SVET"
nešto drugo, tj. neka strana reč koju ja ne znam, ali da je tako
trebalo bi da piše: "SVET-u".
Na kraju, možeš da pročitaš moje poruke i u njima ćeš naći
masu pravopisnih grešaka. Ako ti smeta, a ti lepo urgiraj kod
SyAdm-a da konačno uvedu naredbu "RESIGN <korisnik> ili DUMMY
<korisnik> (kako predloži Balinda)", pa onda lepo napiši:
RESIGN <bradenkovic>
RESIGN <ppekovic>
RESIGN <acka>
ili još bolje:
RESIGN <svi osim MENE>
pa onda uživaj, nećeš čuti ni psovke, ni oprečna mišljenja,
koja ti, koliko vidim, jako smetaju, pa uživaj do mile volje.
Paya
svet.117dejanr,
==========
tojerry/russia #925, from eric.s, 588 chars, Sun Jan 13 03:35:28 1991
Comment(s).
----------
TITLE: Lithuania
I'm not surprised at how silent the national news media has been on
Lithuania this last week (occasional brief mentions toward the end of
the broadcasts, instead of lead stories), but I would have expected more
discussion here. How come? Has it been totally suppressed?
It seems to me that tanks rolling into Vilnius, gun battles,
seizures of newspapers and television stations, and apparent casualties
would warrant big time coverage on Dan Rather, McNeil-Lehrer, etc.
Apparently the media is going along with Bush's decision to suck up
to Gorbachev at all costs.
==========
tojerry/russia #926, from rsimonsen, 127 chars, Sun Jan 13 04:33:12 1991
Comment to 925. Comment(s).
----------
No, it's more like the news media really cannot focus on more than one
huge story at a time otherwise they meltdown.
--Redmond
==========
tojerry/russia #927, from jdow, 125 chars, Sun Jan 13 07:31:23 1991
Comment to 926. Comment(s).
----------
CNN coverage has been picking up quite a bit. Think they were caught with
panties down and had to rush to the scene...
{@_@}
==========
tojerry/russia #928, from rsimonsen, 418 chars, Sun Jan 13 12:08:48 1991
Comment to 927.
----------
This morning the news that Soviet paratroopers and tanks are shooting down
unarmed Lithuanians in the street got about 1 minute on the news.
12 or more Lithuanians killed by gunfire or crushed by tanks and hundreds
wounded. American news cameras seized by Soviet forces. Sound familiar?
The democratic government of Lithuania is being destroyed while we are
preoccupied with restoring an absolute monarchy.
--Redmond
==========
tojerry/russia #929, from athomson, 74 chars, Sun Jan 13 14:34:38 1991
Comment to 928. More refs to 928.
----------
'Soviet paratroopers' = Airborne Assault Forces. See tojerry/journal 2391
==========
tojerry/russia #930, from bill_lewis, 443 chars, Sun Jan 13 15:12:54 1991
Comment to 925. Comment(s). More refs to 925.
----------
LA Times gave the Lithuania invasion their lead column today.
The Russians are obviously taking advantage of the Iraq situation
to make their move; it is hard to say what the US could do, with
most of its troops in Iraq. And hard to say how interested the
average US citizen will be, if real fighting breaks out in Iraq.
I'd say the Europeans are on their own for awhile. Fortunately,
the USSR is unlikely to try expanding its territory.
==========
tojerry/russia #931, from bhartzog, 14 chars, Sun Jan 13 15:56:57 1991
Comment to 928. More refs to 928.
----------
Deja vu 1956.
==========
tojerry/russia #932, from bhartzog, 181 chars, Sun Jan 13 15:59:28 1991
Comment to 927.
----------
I suspect that the TV news organizations just don't have the resources
to cover 2 stories at once on the scale that they are devoting to the
Gulf.
Imagine the scheduling problem.
==========
tojerry/russia #933, from dcolton, 1363 chars, Sun Jan 13 20:03:56 1991
Comment(s).
----------
The Soviet armed forces are fractured. The units
paparticipating in the crackdown have not been specifically
identified, but Gromov's "black berets" might well be part
of the operation. Even ethnic Russian units might not be reliable here
While the entire military is concerned with draft evasion
(Western press has not followed the almost institutional panic
this past year -- 400,000 men short of manpower goals, etc.
Yazhov warned last December at the Army/KGB conference that
draft evasion posed a threat to the integrity of the armed forces)
the officer corps might not support a continued crackdown.
General Mashakov and others are more vehement lately,
but other senior officers support military reform and civilian
control of the military. The general commanding Ogarkov's old
billet wrote an article last September in Kommunist demanding
radical reform. Col. Ochirov, while no Major Lopatin, supports
civilian control, including a civilian head of MOD.
Ochirov, together with Ahkromeyev, are the two most
most influential memebrs on the State Committee for Defense
and State Security. Other senior officers also are of this
school.
The point of the above is ask whether it is appropriate
to ask if Gorbachev has been captured by the military. It might
be better to ask if Gorbachev has gravitated to the military, and
if so, which faction.
==========
tojerry/russia #934, from rdobbins, 153 chars, Sun Jan 13 20:55:32 1991
Comment to 933. Comment(s).
----------
Doesn't the KGB normally handle this sort of thing? Or by
sending the Army, are they talking the stance that they are
intervening in a foreign country?
==========
tojerry/russia #935, from dcolton, 1368 chars, Sun Jan 13 21:31:56 1991
Comment to 934. Comment(s).
----------
The Cheka/OGPU/GPU/NKVD/MGB/KGB as an institution has always possessed
combat formations to varying degrees depending on the historical
period. The MVD (ministry of internal affairs) has always had
the more tradition al "police"/militia mission.
(When the MVD was in existance, that is.)
Of course to run the Gulags, they needed units.
In fact, the gaps in Chernenko's bio suggests that
he served in some of the NKVD squads in the Ukraine
during ther 1930s (which belies the claim that Yuri
was the only one from the Organs to be in power).
Today, the KGB has a number of capable units. The Germans
claim that the Center has taken charge of units withdrawing
from the remnants of GSFG. At one time, the finest units in
the Soviet army (w/the T-64 and T-72 derivatives).
The installation of the Chekisti as the MVD head (replacing
a Shevy-type liberal) and Boris Gromov in the MVD last fall
suggests that the Army/KGB has decided to reinforce the MVD's
ability to exert control. The Army as an institution is VERY
unhappy with the idea of being a police force. Colonel-
General Rodionov, who commanded the troops suppressing Tblisi,
refused further similar orders because what he claimed was the
damage to the armed forces "moral authority."
To belabor a point made earlier, the real identity of the units
participating in Vilnus will be of great significance.
==========
tojerry/russia #936, from rdobbins, 164 chars, Sun Jan 13 21:56:17 1991
Comment to 935. Comment(s).
----------
You know, those units still in eastern Germany (how strange to
phrase it that way!) must come through Poland on their way back
to the USSR.
Makes one wonder . . .
==========
tojerry/russia #937, from bscherrey, 305 chars, Sun Jan 13 22:19:51 1991
Comment to 926. Comment(s). More refs to 926.
----------
The problem is that the news media no longers finds and reports the news,
it collects and repeats it. Until the Soviets give them something to report
we won't get anything really. Of course, Sadaam has used our media very well
and understands this. Our media has obliged him.
later,
Ben Scherrey
==========
tojerry/russia #938, from bscherrey, 329 chars, Sun Jan 13 22:22:22 1991
Comment to 928. Comment(s).
----------
I assume the "absolute monarchy" you talk about is Kuwait. Look again,
Kuwait has a constitution and has had a parliment for many years. They are
the best example of a democracy in that area of the world. Our news doesn't
bother to bring out the plight of Kuwait and what we are really fighting for.
later,
Ben Scherrey
==========
tojerry/russia #939, from rdobbins, 190 chars, Sun Jan 13 22:51:48 1991
Comment to 937. Comment(s). More refs to 937.
----------
That explains the "paratroopers" phrase that ALL the media are
using.
Disinformation - people accept that paras are elite, which gives
the impression that they _aren't_ KGB-sponsored . . .
==========
tojerry/russia #940, from jpistritto, 617 chars, Mon Jan 14 04:26:11 1991
Comment to 926. Comment(s).
----------
Hey, one question. How are they getting FILM of the soviet
actions in Lithuania OUT of the country? Surely not real time
transmission. A lot of it looked like it was taken on Video-8
type cameras, (I even recognized the legends on one sequence as
being from the Sony Handycam series, since I own one). But
transmission facilities must be in short supply right at the
moment. (after all, those troops were assaulting the TV station,
etc.).
Since it came out so quickly, it must have been uplinked
somewhere. Possibly in another Baltic Republic? Bandit uplink
station?
Joseph C. Pistritto, (jpistrit@oracle.com)
==========
tojerry/russia #941, from jpistritto, 441 chars, Mon Jan 14 04:26:26 1991
Comment to 938. Comment(s).
----------
Having been to Kuwait while it was still there, I can say that
people there definately didn't think of it as democracy in the
sense we do here. The Parliament was more or less at the
discretion of the Emir.
On the other hand, the Emir ran a nice place, and everyone I've
ever met from Kuwait or in it thought he did a good job.
Relatively liberal for the region, and relatively forward
thinking.
Joseph C. Pistritto, (jpistrit@oracle.com)
==========
tojerry/russia #942, from jpistritto, 309 chars, Mon Jan 14 04:26:37 1991
Comment to 930. Comment(s).
----------
Even if all our troops were standing around in West Germany
instead of in the Gulf, there's nothing we could do. We're not
going to oppose ANYTHING the soviets do to their own citizens.
We probably wouldn't oppose anything they did even in Poland.
Just too risky.
Joseph C. Pistritto, (jpistrit@oracle.com)
==========
tojerry/russia #943, from athomson, 308 chars, Mon Jan 14 07:10:11 1991
Comment to 939.
----------
Perhaps this is making too much of a single word, but I found it
interesting that Achalov used the phrase "extraordinary, extreme
situations." 'Extraordinary' in Russian is 'chrezvychaynyy,' and
carries a heavy load of historical significance in Soviet culture.
Among other things, it is the 'Ch' in V.Ch.K.
==========
tojerry/russia #944, from athomson, 64 chars, Mon Jan 14 07:52:44 1991
Comment to 940.
----------
I suspect 'transmit' in this case means "drive it into Poland.'
==========
tojerry/russia #945, from wesley, 126 chars, Mon Jan 14 18:06:16 1991
Comment to 936.
----------
I believe I read somewhere that Poland was denying Russia the
right to cross Polish territory to move Soviet Troops home.
Wes
==========
tojerry/russia #946, from wesley, 81 chars, Mon Jan 14 18:06:25 1991
Comment to 942. More refs to 942.
----------
Citizens of the Baltic Republics do not consider themselves
Soviet citizens.
Wes
==========
tojerry/russia #947, from bscherrey, 255 chars, Mon Jan 14 19:31:20 1991
Comment to 942. More refs to 942.
----------
We don't have to DO anything to stop the Soviets. Just STOP giving them
the support we're currently sending and the people of the Soviet Union will
take care of everything for us.
later,
Ben Scherrey
.... give peace and the free market a chance!
==========
tojerry/russia #948, from rsimonsen, 240 chars, Mon Jan 14 20:53:22 1991
Comment to 941.
----------
Thank you, Joseph. Kuwait may have technically been a constitutional
monarchy but the place ran as the Emir and his family saw fit.
The fact that the rule was benign is immaterial to the degree of authority
weilded by the Emir.
--Redmond
==========
tojerry/russia #949, from bill_lewis, 443 chars, Mon Jan 14 23:13:14 1991
Comment to 925. Comment(s).
----------
LA Times gave the Lithuania invasion their lead column today.
The Russians are obviously taking advantage of the Iraq situation
to make their move; it is hard to say what the US could do, with
most of its troops in Iraq. And hard to say how interested the
average US citizen will be, if real fighting breaks out in Iraq.
I'd say the Europeans are on their own for awhile. Fortunately,
the USSR is unlikely to try expanding its territory.
==========
tojerry/russia #950, from rdobbins, 141 chars, Tue Jan 15 00:17:41 1991
Comment to 949. More refs to 949.
----------
Is BIX messed up, is my blinker messed up, am I going insane, or
is this the third time I have seen some of your posts in the last
few days?
==========
tojerry/russia #951, from eric.s, 156 chars, Tue Jan 15 04:21:10 1991
Comment to 937.
----------
And the soviets know this too. According to one news report,
the "National Salvation Front" has outlawed video recorders and
tape recorders in Lithuania.
==========
tojerry/russia #952, from eric.s, 751 chars, Tue Jan 15 04:28:05 1991
Comment to 942.
----------
We could condemn them loudly in the UN and call for sanctions
akin to those against Iraq (of course they would veto them, but we
could pressure Europe and Japan to go along). We could cancel the
billion dollar credit we just gave them. We could pressure Germany
to cancel the 22 billion dollars of credit. We could offer full
diplomatic recognition to the Baltics.
They are sensitive to public opinion (witness their anger over
Reagan's Evil Empire rhetoric), and they certainly would be sensitive
to the loss of billions of western aid.
What Gorbachev just did to Lithuania is exactly the same thing
Hussein did to Kuwait. The difference is Lithuania was a democracy,
not a feudal monarchy. And it was never legally part of the Soviet
Union.
==========
tojerry/russia #953, from sponto, 185 chars, Tue Jan 15 15:47:23 1991
Comment to 924.
----------
Hi Rick, Happy New year
Sorry to trouble you again for info, but can you
suggest a good book that weighs up the various
scenarios for paleoindian settlement in America?
Thanks,
peter
==========
tojerry/russia #954, from bscherrey, 292 chars, Tue Jan 15 22:04:11 1991
Comment to 949.
----------
If Lithuania's citizens owned guns as much as U.S. citizens there would
be no troops in Lithuania. Of course, our national socialists (er... the
left) want us to be much more like these countries that restrict gun
ownership.... they're so much better of than us.
later,
Ben Scherrey
svet.118dejanr,
==========
financial/east.europe #148, from dcolton, 227 chars, Sun Jan 13 20:07:33 1991
Comment to 147. Comment(s).
----------
Tom -- long time no talk.
I was actually writing a piece for General Bazhenov of the Soviet
General Staff on law and military reform. With current events, it is
doubtful whether it would be worth sending the piece over there.
==========
financial/east.europe #149, from rdobbins, 49 chars, Sun Jan 13 20:55:21 1991
Comment to 148. Comment(s). More refs to 148.
----------
Why is the Army doing this, rather than the KGB?
==========
financial/east.europe #150, from dcolton, 465 chars, Sun Jan 13 23:29:08 1991
Comment to 149. Comment(s). More refs to 149.
----------
re Army
Not clear that it is the "Army" or if so, what units. See a posting
in tojerryp russia this day. The Army has been very against its use
as police, even in a non-Slavic republic -- witness Georgia.
People forget that the army and the security organs have a
deep institutional dislike/rivalry. GRU/KGB, purges/army role in
killing Beria, etc. We need to know where the units came from
(as opposed to what insignia they are wearing on their uniforms).
DC.
==========
financial/east.europe #151, from dcolton, 112 chars, Mon Jan 14 00:12:19 1991
Comment to 150. Comment(s). More refs to 150.
----------
CNN has just said "an army general has announced he will
control the capital through martial law." Interesting.
==========
financial/east.europe #152, from rdobbins, 75 chars, Mon Jan 14 00:54:20 1991
Comment to 151. Comment(s).
----------
Rather.
I thought Gorby was going to use his new dictatorial powers . . .
==========
financial/east.europe #153, from moneysmith, 476 chars, Mon Jan 14 12:45:47
1991
Comment to 148.
----------
Welcome back. You're right. The photo in the local newspaper of
Lithuanian arms and legs protruding from beneath tank treads would indicate
that military "reform" is not the central thrust of Soviet planning.
Then again, with Boris Yeltsin going into the Baltics to tell Russian
nationals in the Red Army not to obey any orders to attack civilians,
it would seem that there are yet different schools of thought on what
direction Soviet law and military policy will take.
==========
financial/east.europe #154, from moneysmith, 702 chars, Mon Jan 14 12:52:13
1991
Comment to 149. Comment(s).
----------
Covert agencies, like the KGB, are better suited to deal with a few
dissidents. When hundreds of thousands of citizens rise up en masse, elect
a parliament, and re-write a national constitution, the situation is far
beyond the reach of spies. Anyone who wants to know what the Lithuanians
are up to just has to attend a press conference or turn on the TV.
Since neither Europe nor the United States have ever recognized the
right of Adolph Hitler to give the Baltics to Russia, nor Stalin's right to
steal them, and even Gorbachev himself has revealed the Hitler-Stalin pact
to the public, the current actions of the Red Army are simply those of
conquest, colonialism, and imperialist coercion.
==========
financial/east.europe #155, from moneysmith, 138 chars, Mon Jan 14 12:53:39
1991
Comment to 150.
----------
Reports keep identifying them as "paratroopers" if that's useful.
At least some, if not most, have been identified as Russian nationals.
==========
financial/east.europe #156, from moneysmith, 443 chars, Mon Jan 14 12:57:23
1991
Comment to 152. Comment(s).
----------
Sending in tanks and declaring martial law *is* an exercise of
Gorbachev's power, dictatorial or otherwise. The general in Lithuania is
there obeying orders and on Moscow's authority. Since the USSR ostensibly
has a constitution, and since the Lithuanians are legalistically a republic
under that constitution, replacing the elected officeholders with a general
is about as dictatorial as it gets. The rest is just tactics and body count.
==========
financial/east.europe #157, from dcolton, 738 chars, Mon Jan 14 19:52:35 1991
Comment to 156. Comment(s).
----------
Re: The Soviets Need Al Haig
Just who is charge over there? Yazhov and Gorbachev deny knowing
of the action, but the whole thing is beginning to look like a very
good copy of the Bay of Pigs -- i.e, an unmitigated disaster for a covert
op. Apparently, the troops were supposed to synchronize their action
a la Kabul 1979 with the local Center puppet organization announcing
that they were now the legitimate gov't.
The whole thing raises issues of competence. If Mike & Co. were
planning this, it was too little force for overwheliming civic
disobedience. The poltical cooperation was poor. If he didn't know,
does anyone think Columbia would open up the Kerensky chair of
Improvisational Politics for him? At least it is tenured.
==========
financial/east.europe #158, from rhsmith, 286 chars, Mon Jan 14 21:13:59 1991
Comment to 157. Comment(s). More refs to 157.
----------
Yazov doesn't know????? You must be joking. There is that same tell-
tale phrase...."to restore Soviet power"....not to restore order..
or legitimacy...or anything else..but "to restore Soviet power"..
that Yazov ordered at the time of the intervention in Baku.......
==========
financial/east.europe #159, from moneysmith, 523 chars, Mon Jan 14 21:32:52
1991
Comment to 157. Comment(s).
----------
Hard to tell who is in charge, but I don't know that it can really
be said that the force used in Lithuania was too little. They aren't expecting
to win any hearts and minds, but they've certainly done a job of stamping
down elected opposition and seizing power. The pretense that the whole
thing was "local" or "internal" is ridiculous. The Red Army doesn't go
anywhere without orders from Moscow, any more than the U.S. forces in the
Persian Gulf are just a bunch of freelancers annoyed by Saddam Hussein's
mustache.
==========
financial/east.europe #160, from moneysmith, 168 chars, Mon Jan 14 21:35:15
1991
Comment to 158. More refs to 158.
----------
Yep. Pure power play. Everything else is smoke. Now Moscow will
restore old-fashioned Soviet democracy so there are no more surprises
on the day after elections.
==========
financial/east.europe #161, from dcolton, 6 chars, Mon Jan 14 21:35:22 1991
Comment to 158.
----------
Yes.
==========
financial/east.europe #162, from dcolton, 761 chars, Mon Jan 14 21:41:36 1991
Comment to 159. Comment(s).
----------
Maybe. But the parliament has not been crushed, nor the will
of the people broken. The violence was enough to ignite passion but
insufficient to cow future resistence. Infact, it was the worst
type of force: it achieved nothing because Soviet power was not
installed, even the Bundesbank will be forced to reconsider the
massive DM flow eastwards, and Mike got a black eye.
Re Yazhov -- he might well have known. Probable -- but
remember, although MinDef, his institutional support within the
military is not without chinks -- he skipped over many and was
a Gorby creature for a while. Ahkromeyev, Kulikov, Ogarkov -- these
are not only men of brains but the will to kill. His bureaucratic
position does not confer the power it used to have automatically.
==========
financial/east.europe #163, from moneysmith, 1331 chars, Mon Jan 14 22:21:26
199
1
Comment to 162. More refs to 162.
----------
If Lithuania were the only isolated center of dissent, the current
situation might be considered "the worst type of force." If the longer view
is to inflame Lithuanians so that a real spectacle of crushing them follows,
with the intent being to set an example for the Ukrainians and others, it
might serve well enough. A short, sharp action would not allow the hardliners
enough time to use the issue to make a convincing case that dissent was
wrecking the nation and a reversal of reforms in general vitally necessary.
If modest force gets only increased trouble, they keep playing for more
power and force, and not just to handle Lithuania.
Difficult to tell at this distance how it will all play out. Not so
long ago, conventional wisdom had it that China really wanted reform as
much as needed it. That didn't happen. My feeling is that there are two
camps in the USSR who are assuming that Gorbachev will not last and they
want to be in position to fill the vacuum, not just influence Gorby. It's
kind of a lame duck syndrome.
Gorbachev, for his part, doesn't intend to leave. His game is to
try to figure out a balancing act that would take a gifted mobile artist
to construct and manage. Funny thing is, he just might be the one guy who
could do it. I'd never want to underestimate that man's survival skills.
==========
financial/east.europe #164, from rdobbins, 82 chars, Mon Jan 14 22:23:58 1991
Comment to 154. Comment(s).
----------
I don't think it's the Army - it's KGB Border Guards or Interior
Ministry troops.
==========
financial/east.europe #165, from dcolton, 206 chars, Mon Jan 14 22:54:21 1991
Comment to 164. Comment(s). More refs to 164.
----------
It would be interesting to note that Pugo (MVD head) claimed the
locals fired first. The "black beret" units were specifically constituted
after the army refused to move in last spring/summer in the south.
==========
financial/east.europe #166, from dgordon, 159 chars, Tue Jan 15 03:38:22 1991
Comment to 164.
----------
They did look a bit too proficient in the way they hacked at the
crowds with their gun butts. Too proficient for a bunch of conscripts
I would have thoiught.
==========
financial/east.europe #167, from dgordon, 55 chars, Tue Jan 15 03:41:24 1991
Comment to 162. Comment(s).
----------
I wonder if those pratts in Oslo are watching closely?
==========
financial/east.europe #168, from moneysmith, 435 chars, Tue Jan 15 04:16:05
1991
Comment to 165.
----------
CNN had a film clip of a Moscow military type decrying the fact that
a soldier was shot in the back. The film clips show very ragged lines of
soldiers charging at night into crowds. If a soldier was, in fact, shot in
the back, I'd certainly love to have independent investigators do some
ballistic tests on the weapons of the other soldiers in the ranks behind him.
The civilians of Vilnius are hardly the armed militia of Concord.
==========
financial/east.europe #169, from moneysmith, 232 chars, Tue Jan 15 04:18:37
1991
Comment to 167.
----------
From all reports, assorted European powers are talking about long
looks and second thoughts about economic dealings with the Soviets, as
well they should. In Moscow, "freedom fighter" does not mean fighting
*for* greater freedom.
svet.119jtitov,
>Sta mislis sta inace radim na Sezamu...mozda vrbujem nove agente...
>:)))))
Jel', bato kol'ko plaćaš??
svet.120jtitov,
>Ukratko to je takav soj koji je kroz istoriju skolovan da se kroz
zivot
>probija prevarom i raznoraznim mesetarenjem.
To je potpuno tačno. Koliko oni fazona znaju za prepisivanje na
ispitima, to je haos. A da ne spominjem jurnjavu za profesorima,
kao stalno im je nešto nejasno. Koliko su oni oduzimali
dragocenih minuta na konsultacijama, pa i stolice bi shvatile.
ALI ne, nisu oni glupi. Sve je to smišljeno...
svet.121jtitov,
E ala je tebe lako naložiti...
Da bi se malo, ali samo malo smirio, šaljem ti jednu lepu sličicu.
Erotična jeste, ali bezobrazna nije.
playboy3.gifsvet.122ognjan,
>> Ma da nije ovaj Ogy neki špijun (bug) na Sezamu. Mnogo hvali nešto
>> Ruse.
Pretpostavljam da je ovdje u pitanju greškica pri kucanju, ali ipak
bih skrenuo pažnju da ovdje postoje: Ogi i Ogy, koji su potpuno RAZLIžITE
LIžNOSTI !
Pozdrav, Ogy.
svet.123michael,
Pocelo je (u 00:30)
svet.124vcalic,
Počelo je počelo !!!
WR
svet.125vcalic,
Dosta, bre, sa ostavljanjem dugačkih fajlova u konferencije
svet.126lanik,
>> Slusaj,Lanik!
Slušam,Oduzlevski! ;))))
Bez šale, prvo da se izvinim ako sam nekog uvredio a zatim...
>> Ne znam kako bi se ti osecao da te neko maltretira,i tretira kao
nizu rasu,samo zato sto si druge boje koze ili nesto slicno... <<
Ma ja NIKOGA NEĆU DA MALTRETIRAM! I to nema nikakve veze sa
bojom kože. I ja nikako ne tvrdim da su crnci "niža rasa". Da ponovim:
smatram da su crnci *u proseku* intelektualno inferiorniji u odnosu na
belce i ništa drugo! Isto tako tvrdim, da su ti isti crnci fizički
superiorniji od belaca. I tu ne vidim ništa loše.
>> Zato,molim te da ubuduce ne ostavljas onakve poruke, jer time samo
pokazujes koliko imas nazadna shvatanja! <<
Toooooo! napokon je neko razumeo! čivela nazadna shvatanja!
;)))
A što je toliko loše da neko bude konzervativan i da ima
nazadna shvatanja, za neke stvari???
Toliko! ;))))))))))))))
Pozdrav,
Dalibor
svet.127lanik,
>> meni licno socijalizam direktno nije naudio-nije me slao u zatvore
itd. <<
E, vidiš, meni je naudio, i to MNOGO!
>> NE znam sta da kazem,jedino mi izgleda preostaje da se nasmejem...
:)))))))))) Da li ti znas da se uopste ne zna tacan broj ljudi koji
rade za KGB u svetu...Oni su infiltrirani u sve pore svih zapadnih i
istocnih drustava... <<
Ma znam ja to. Slažem se da je KGB druga služba u svetu. Prva
je normalno, Izraelska.
A NSA su NEDODIRLJIVI. Ma sve se mislim da li si me ti dobro
pročitao... Ja sam napisao NSA!!!!! ;)))))))))))))))
svet.128lanik,
>> delimicno se slazem sa komentarom o smrdljivim islamiziranim
Arapima.Medjutim dali su svi u Iraku muslimani. Ja sam mislio da jesu,
ali sam bio u zabludi. <<
Hmm... to nisam znao. Thanx for the information. Ali, ja u
svakom slučaju i ne mislim na *sve* Arape i na sve koji veruju u Alaha.
Kada kažem "zaglupljeni Arapi" mislim *na većinu*, jer je to jedino
kako se *narodi* mogu posmatrati. Znači, nije u pitanju da i medju
Arapima, i medju Šiptarima ima dobrih ljudi. Ali u svakom žitu ima...
kao i obrnuto! ;)))
Pozdrav,
Dalibor
svet.129lanik,
>> Ili si strahovito dvoličan ili uopće nemaš pojma o tome što govoriš!
Jer, ti upravo kažeš da su oni manje ljudi od nas. Ja ne znam počemu.
Pogotovo ne od rasista koji predstavljaju sve ono najcrnje što je
ljudska povijest izrodila. <<
Hvala na komplimentima.
Po čemu? Reći ću ti po čemu:
Da su crnci ostali u Africi, bez ikakvog uplitanja belaca, oni
bi i dan danas bili na granama i lupali u tam-tam i igrali igru za
prizivanje kiše. Poznato je da i danas u Africi (retko gde, ali još
uvek ima) ima plemena koja žive kao što su živela pre 500 godina, i kao
što su živela hiljadama godina pre toga.
E sada, da li je to slučajnost, da nigde nema "belačkih"
plemena, zaostalih itd., to stvarno ne znam. I nemojte posle tamo neka
klima, podneblje i slično. Ni Skandinavci nisu imali najsjanije
podneblje pa su opet na visokom tehnološkom i kulturnom nivou.
Ako su crnci bili jednako pametni kao i belci, što ONI nisu
*belce* uzimali za robove, da im rade na plantažama?
Normalno je da kada ti danas školuješ jednog crnca i omogućiš
mu sve uslove za obrazovanje, da će on biti ravan svakom belcu. Ali što
ti crnci nisu izmislili koledže i stvorili uslove da se sami školuju?
Zašto su svi veliki naučnici bili (i još uvek jesu) belci? Zašto je
današnja tehnička kultura *belačka* (anglo-saksonska)? Pa Afrika je
NAJZAOSTALIJI kontinent! Ma neeeeee.... nema to veze sa inteligencijom!
Jok!
Jedini uspešni crnci danas su zabavljači i sportisti. Ima vrlo
malo naučnika crnaca. A to samo ide u prilog mojoj tvrdniji, jer su
belci fizički slabiji od crnaca (vidi samo sve one crnce sportiste -
nigde nema belaca!), a crnci su intelektualno "slabiji" od belaca.
I uopšte mi ih nije žao! Neka pola crnaca budu beskućnici u
Americi, i neka se samo bune! To je sve zato što su oni NERADNICI i
LENJžUGE i samo se bune i pričaju, a ovamo primaju socijalnu pomoć i
samo su društvu na teretu (Američki crnci). Crnci u Americi su ISTO što
šiptari u Srbiji. Šljam koji ne radi i živi od rada drugih na
socijalnoj pomoći. žast izuzecima kao što su Bil Kozbi, Arsenio Hol i
drugi...
Pozdrav,
Dalibor
svet.130lanik,
>> Ne, nisam, ali mi opće obrazovanje i stupanj kulture koju posjedujem
dozvoljava da stvari shvatim onakvima kakve jesu, kao i da razlikujem
normalan od nenormalnog načina razmišljanja. <<
Dražene, možeš ti da budeš koliko god hoćeš "kulturan" i
obrazovan (uzgred, obrazovanje nema NIKAKVE veze sa kulturom i sa ovim
o čemu pričamo), i ja u to da si ti obrazovan i kulturan i ne sumnjam,
ali ako nemaš ličnog iskustva, nemožeš *uvek* da shvatiš stvari onakvim
kakve jesu.
>> O Arapima ću uvijek isto misliti, a promijenit ću eventualno
mišljenje o grupi Muslimana koja bude kriva za to što je do toga
eventualno došlo i u skladu s time se i ponašati. <<
Zar prema tome nije lakše "generalno" tvrditi da su Arapi
"negativci" nego se tu "vaditi" na neku "lošu" manjinu? Neki narodi su
predodredjeni na svoje uloge, ništa to nije slučajno. Svaki narod ima
svoje loše strane, neki manje - neki više.
Šiptari su glupi i lako je manipulisati njima. Slovenci
naprimer imaju tipičan kompleks malog naroda. Hrvati imaju komplekse
jer nikada nisu bili država i jer su uvek bili nečiji "satelit". Srbi
su malo priglupi (čim su glasali za komuniste) i nekulturni, ali šta se
tu može? To su činjenice i ništa ih neće promeniti. To što istina
ponekad boli, - to je sasvim druga stvar.
>> Ti ne samo da si užasno nazadan, nego i prilično ograničen kako sam
slobodan primijetiti, a osjećam da i ostali ovdje misle slično. <<
Još jednom, hvala na komplimentima.
>> čelite li ti i tvoji pajtosi sada uvjeriti ostale kako je Hitleru
trebalo dati Nobelovu nagradu za mir ? <<
To, za Hitlera, to je tvoja ideja i to si ti rekao.
svet.131lanik,
>> Pod pretpostavkom da si čisti Srbin (ili već šta si), je li to
dobro ili loše? <<
Nisam čisti Srbin, ali sam čisti SLOVEN! To je važno. Jer su
Sloveni narod budućnosti! Slovene su uvek j*bali, smeštali im
komunizam, smatrali nižim rasama, ubijali, progonili -- e pa red je da
dodje naših pet minuta! neće ova Anglo-saksonska kultura da traje
večno! I veće civilizacije su propale! A onda -- onda MI dolazimo! ;)))
Fala bogu da je dobro! Grozim se pomisli da sam mogao da budem
neki Anglosaksonac ili German... ili nedaj bože crnac? ;))))
svet.132lanik,
>> Ako je osoba A pametnija, lepša, bogatija, duhovitija, itd.
od osobe B, a pri tom je osoba A i kulturna, onda osoba A neće
potencirati svoju superiornost nad osobom B. Primitivnoj i
iskompleksiranoj osobi svaki kriterijum (pa i iskonstruisan) koji je
uzdiže iznad drugih znači mnogo.
Apsolutno! Sećaš se kada sam to isto JA tvrdio u temi najbolji?
svet.133lanik,
>> ja tako i postupam. Zovem Sezam da se zezam, bar kada su tako
ozbiljne teme u pitanju. <<
Pa hvala bogu! Pa zar bi se ja ovde bezveze svadjao sa ljudima,
da se ludo ne zabavljam? ;)))
svet.134lanik,
Ej, Ogi... Ja sam uvek želeo das budem špijun KGB-a, odkako su
me izbacili iz NSA. Jel' možeš nešto da mi središ?
;))))
Pozdrav,
Dalibor
svet.135lanik,
>> JA vec nekoliko godina vodim borbu da nekolicinu Arapa naucim
elementarnim stvarima ali bez uspeha. <<
Kad si već pomenuo Arape i "nauku"... (nadam se da možemo na
"Ti"? - Ako ne, možemo i na "Vi", meni ne smeta... ;))
U JAT-ovoj pilotskoj školi u Vršcu, u kojoj se inače stalno
školuju piloti raznih Arapskih i ostalih "zumba-zumba" plemen.. ovaj,
država, sam imao priliku da vidim Arape koji uče za pilote i da
razgovaram sa njihovim instruktorima... Svi su mi rekli da GORI piloti
od Arapa NE POSTOJE i da su užasno glupi, da ne mogu da nauče jezik, a
kamoli nešto o letenju... A da ne pominjem što uništavaju avione...
Sećam se, jedan instruktor letenja mi je pričao, da nikako nije
mogao da nauči jednog arapa da sleti. Sve je bilo OK, ali sletanje -
nikako. U pitanju su bili avioni Cessna 172, koji su stvarno laki za
upravljanje (kada sam ja sam sletao posle samo 5-6 sati naleta, onda će
sve da vam bude jasno) i sletanje ne bi trebao da bude prevelik problem
svakom normalno čoveku. Ljut, pošto arap po ko zna koji put nije dobro
sleteo, instruktor mu je rekao: "ma zašto ti je to sletanje problem, pa
samo pusti avion, on će sam da sleti!", misleći da su Cessne toliko
dobre da ju je potrebno samo malo "pridržavati" i da će sama da sleti.
Zapamtivši instruktorove reči, ovaj genijalni pilot je u finalu
doveo avion do prvog ravnanja (na 3-5 metara) i pustio komande!
Normalno, tako je "bupnuo" sa 3 metra da je izlomio celi stajni trap.
Kada je izašao iz aviona (neozledjen), rekao je začudjenom instruktoru:
"pa rekli ste mi da će sam da sleti!".
I ako su Arapi onda pametni, e j*biga!
Pozdrav,
Dalibor
svet.137bojt,
Noćas u 00:10 po našem vremenu počeo je rat u zalivu.
Prema prvim informacijama veliki deo iračkih vojnih potencijala
bukvalno je zbrisan silovitim vazdušnim napadom.
žitava operacija "Pustinjska oluja" je do sada mala sledeći tok:
U toku jučerašnjeg dana irački prostor je bio izložen strahovitim
elektronskim ometanjem, što je gotovo paralisalo skoro sve iračke
komunikacije. Posle 00:40 po našem vremnu, lovci-bombarderi tipa
F-117, nevidljivi za radare, uništili su (skoro?) sve instalacije
za lansiranje raketa sa hemijskim i biološkim bojevim glavama
velikog dometa, kao i (skoro?) svu iračku avijaciju, i to na
aerodromima. Posle toga sledilo je preletanje lovaca F-15 koji
su imali zadatak da nateraju Iračane da upale radare posle čega
su i ti radari bili uništeni specijalnim raketama koje "plove"
po radarskom snopu. U takvoj situaciji Iraku ostaju vrlo male
mogućnosti za valjanu odbranu od napada iz vazduha. Od tada je
Bagdad bombardovan skoro sve vreme do sada, ali, prema
izveštajima 3 reportera CNN-a koji se nalaze na 14-om spratu
jednog hotela u Bagdadu i koji su do prekida veza uživo
izveštavali o toku napada, bomardovanje se sprovodi veoma
precizno i pogadjaju se uglavnom vojni ciljevi, kao i ciljevi
od strateškog značaja. Prema izjavi iz Pentagona jedan od
glavnih ciljeva biće i potpuno presecanje svih komunikacionih
veza (i informativnih i fizičkih) sa iračkim trupama
stacioniranim u Kuvajtu. Da se napad udruženih snaga odvija
bez ikakvih smetnji ubedljivo svedoči podatak da za preko 3
sata od početka sukoba nikakav odgovor nije stigao ni prema
Saudijskoj Arabiji ni prema Izraelu, koji su navodjeni kao
prve mete iračke odmazde. Nesumnjivo je da je Irak potpuno
zatečen i nemoćan u ovom trenutku. Prema izveštajima nijedan
avion udruženih snaga nije oboren (mada, čudo bi bilo da
kažu čak i ako jeste...)
Ovo su bile vesti u 3:40, moje ime je bojt, & good night
America where ever you are!
svet.138dejanr,
Evo jednog "malog" izvoda iz chata na BIX-u koji se vrćim delom
odnosi na rat. U chatu je učestvovao naš korisnik zvani White
Rabbit i doneo ga na Sezam, ja ga samo premeštam u FORUM...
Idem sad i ja do BIX-a da vidim ima li nešto novo... Mada govor
Buša i Pauela koji sam sada slušao na CNN-u nije baš vrveo
podacima tako da ne verujem da se Bog zna šta zna.
Svaka čast onim reporterima na 14. spratu u Bagdadu, treba da dobiju
orden za hrabrost. Jedino mi nije jasno zašto ne kažu šta javlja
irački radio ili TV, pod pretpostavkom da isti uopšte i funkcionišu.
war.zipsvet.139bojt,
>> To, za Hitlera, to je tvoja ideja i to si ti rekao.
Hajde Lanik, budimo realni... Pa Hitler je temeljno razradio
tvoju ideju i još temeljnije je sprovodio u delo. Razmisli malo...
svet.140bojt,
>> Nisam čisti Srbin, ali sam čisti SLOVEN! To je važno. Jer su
>> Sloveni narod budućnosti! Slovene su uvek j*bali, smeštali im
>> komunizam, smatrali nižim rasama, ubijali, progonili...
A jel? Znači takvi su bili uslovi... "naravno, ako jednog Slovena
stavite na zapadne univerzitete postići će isti uspeh... ali
zašto Sloveni nisu izmislili zapadne univerzitete... Ma neeeeee....
nema to veze sa inteligencijom! Jok!"
svet.141bojt,
>> ..."pa rekli ste mi da će sam da sleti!".
>> I ako su Arapi onda pametni, e j*biga!
Vrlo inspirativan primer generalizacije...
Ali, u slučaju da si u pravu, onda mi je najzad potpuno jasno
zašto je onaj nesretni ST onakav kakav je, kad je jedan od
glavnih mozgova pri njegovom konstruisanju bio onaj musliman
(kako se ono zvaše... ŠŠŠ)...
svet.142bojt,
>> [White Rabbit]* Yeah, me from Yugoslavia
>> [Wino Joe]* welcome, White Rabbit
>> [ms_missie] hi White Rabbit !!!!!
>> [Dream Walker]* White Rabbit, the first european!!!
>> [georgiagirl] hey White Rabbit
>> [White Rabbit]* hi
>> [barb] hi White Rabbit!!!
>> [wurton] hey White Rabbit!
>> [mbourne] Hi udav (White Rabbit)
^^^^
Nisam znao da i ovi na bix-u znaju...
svet.143dejanr,
>> > [mbourne] Hi udav (White Rabbit)
>> > ^^^^
>>
>> Nisam znao da i ovi na bix-u znaju...
Verovao ili ne, jedan naš prijatelj sa Sezama je na BIXu izabrao
pseudonim udav. Možete li pogoditi ko?
svet.144dejanr,
U NOVOSTI/world.news imate poruke sa BIX-a (mali milion, sve stizalo
noćas) o ratu... i protiv rata... i uglavnom za rat ;)
Inače, tamo je u toku VEEEEELIKI chat - svi gledaju jednim okom CNN,
drugim monitor i komentarišu. Na žalost, ovde se to nije desilo...
ali neće rat odmah da se završi :( ima vremena...
svet.145shone,
Evo ja sada gledam direktan prenos rata. Inace kazu
da je Iraq bombardovan i da je na njega baceno oko
16 000 tona bombi!
Shone
svet.146imandic,
Pogresno,18 000 tona bombi.
Nazdravlje! Sad im se ispunila zelja da poginu za Sadama.
svet.147agobovic,
>> Verovao ili ne, jedan nas prijatelj sa Sezama je na BIXu izabrao
>> pseudonim udav. Mozete li pogoditi ko?
NE! Moras nam reci ko je!
AG
svet.148bojt,
Izgleda da, prema izveštajima, veliki broj Iračkih vojnika skida
uniforme i oblači civilna odela... So much for the strong Iraqi
army with big expirience...
Inače, "udružene snage" sapoštavaju da su svi planirani ciljevi
u Iraku uništeni i da su se svi avioni vratili neoštećeni sa
zadatka. Sa druge strane Iračka vojna komanda je saopštila da
su njihovi piloti "hrabri orlovi" oborili 14 američkih aviona.
Prema izveštačima CNN-a život u Bagdadu se iznenadjujuće
"normalno" odvija: izašle su novine, prodavnice su snabdevene
hlebom...
Koliko ja znam, ovo je najefektnija i najbrilijantija vojna
akcija ovih razmera koja je ikad izvedena.
svet.149bulaja,
> Koliko ja znam, ovo je najefektnija i najbriljantnija vojna
> akcija ovih razmera koja je ikad izvedena.
Slazem se. Ja nisam bio mnogo odusevljen mogucim ratom, medjutim
ako je stvarno sve izvedeno onako kako se prica po CNNu, ovo je
najcistiji moguci rat.
Iracani su verovatno u soku, mozda su ocekivali da sad krene krdo
amera da marsira kroz pustinju (partizanen) pa da ih ovi skidaju
ko golubove, ali su ameri izabrali sjajnu taktiku. Pitanje je sta
je unisteno u nocasnjem napadu, ali Iraq verovatno moze da se
oprosti od daljek koriscenja avijacije, jer ce im ameri opet
cipiripisati (tj. dzemirati) radare, pa nek i dalje vrte misa po
cockpitu trazeci help meni (za neupucene, iracke migove kontrolise
jedan atari (tzv. dumb terminal) a piloti setaju misa po shofer-
sajbni il kako se vec zove to kod avijona).
svet.150vcalic,
Pošto vidim da mnogo volite izvode sa Bix-a, evo malo diskusije na temu
war&peace:
WR
bix_war.zipsvet.151vcalic,
>>Verovao ili ne, jedan naš prijatelj sa Sezama je na BIXu izabrao
>>pseudonim udav. Možete li pogoditi ko?
Eh, da je jedan... ;))
WR
svet.152bojt,
4 francuska i po jedan britanski i američki avion je oboren
u operaciji "Pustinjska oluja" do sada. To je kudiakmo logičnije
jer je teško očekivati da od preko 1500 aviona koji su
učestvovali u dosadašnjim napadima ne bude oboren baš nijedan.
Sa druge strane, izgleda da se i neke veće iračke tenkovske
jedinice predale...
svet.154bojt,
Nafta pala sa preko 30 na ispod 22$!
svet.158bojt,
>> Pitanje: Cijim informacijama?
>> Odgovor: Saveznickim...
Jašta! Ustvari Iračani cepaju saveznike ko majmune! Saudijska Arabija
sravnjena sa zemljom, od Izraela ostao samo pepeo, a 5325 raketa
"AL HUSSEIN" palo na belu kuću!
Odmazda Iraka na pokušaj napada bila potpuno blagovremena i silovita.
Sprema se napad na Japan.
Ogi ti si šampion!
svet.159dpozaric,
*******************************
>> To, za Hitlera, to je tvoja ideja i to si ti rekao.
Hajde Lanik, budimo realni... Pa Hitler je temeljno razradio
tvoju ideju i još temeljnije je sprovodio u delo. Razmisli malo...
*******************************
Eh, Bojte, sad mi je lakše kad vidim da ima bar još netko tko je u
krivu zajedno sa mnom. ;))
A i ja sam blesav kad dozvolim da me se povuče za jezik, umjesto da
šutim i lupam resign ili preskačem poruke kao vi drugi ;((
Pozdrav,
Dražen.
svet.160dpozaric,
Gledam ove Talijane koji se spremaju isploviti prema Zaljevu na
bojnom brodu "San Marco"... Djeca od 18-19 godina, nemaju pojma što
se to oko njih događa, čini mi se da ni ne pokušavaju shvatiti.
Roditelji i ostali vrište na obali, plaču, majke padaju u nesvijest,
stara baka grabi mikrofon od reportera i hoće svog unuka natrag. Muž
i brat su joj poginuli 1943, jedan na strani Mussolinija a drugi u
partizanima (talijanskim).
žujem da je navodno Saddam ipak uspio preseliti dobar dio aviona na
sjever Iraka, daleko od dometa US i kompanije, i postoji realna
opasnost da oni budu upotrijebljeni za napad na Izrael. Jordan je
premjestio glavninu trupa na granicu prema Izraelu, Sirija šuti,
navodno su "milijuni Arapa spremni za rat na strani Iraka". Bagdad je
ponovno pod tepihom bombi, marinci sa Wisconsina i ostalih brodova
gadjaju ciljeve krstarećim raketama kojih je prema procjenama do sada
ispaljeno već nekoliko stotina (2-4).
It's 6:21 pm, my name is Dražen and goodbye Iraq wherever you were.
svet.161bradenkovic,
Nebi rekao da su im sistemi veze funkcionisali bas lose.
Reporteri CNN-a su slali direktne izvestaje iz Bagdada posredstvom
komunikacione opreme Ministarstva odbrane Iraka. Tek danas su im
zabranili da salju daljne izvestaje. Reporteri su se cudili kako to da ih ne
iskljucuju. Cak je i neki sluzbenik ministarstva dosao da ih obidje i
kaze da mogu nesmetano da izvestavaju (to je bilo jutros).
Kako smo videli, veza sa Amerikom je bila dobra pa neverijem bas da su
ta americka sredstva ometanja bila tako efikasna.
Pozdrav
Boza.
svet.163dveselinovic,
Sem naravno tvog desanta na krevet, i to baš kada treba raditi.
32XDVV
svet.164alazic,
evo jos nekoliko podataka koji bi lepo mogli da se uviju u oblandu
danasnjih dogadajaja.
Daleke '82 (cini mi se) nasi su trebali da Iracanima u kooperaciji
sa Francuzima izgrade nekoliko podzemnih aerodroma. Sticajem okolnosti u to
sve je bio ukljucen i moj otac. Aerodromi su trebali da se izgrade u oromnom
spletu tunela duboko ispod zemlje tako da sva postrojenja osim nekoliko
stotina metara piste budu zaklonjeni od direktnih atomskih udara. Svaki od
tih aerodroma bi imao po nekoliko pisti.Sve se baziralo na ideji da kompletno
opremljeni avion provedu svega dve-tri sekunde na otvorenom prostoru i da
odmah uzlete. Ovaj koncept ne bi bio moguc a da nije bila razvijena
tehnologija razradjivanja motora ili razgrejavanja stotinak metara ispod
zemlje. Naime kada bi avion iz podzemnog hangara kretao prema pisti boravio
bi koji minut u specialnoj komori gde bi aktivirao motor do maksimuma tj
zagrejao ga dajuci mu punu snagu potiska (na obicnim aerodromima to se radi
kada avion pocne da "rula"). U nekom trenutku bi se otvorila na kratko
specijalna vrata (potsecam opet za zastitu od nuklearnog i sl napada) i
avion bi u punoj brzini izleteo iz tunela i zarulao. Tada bi vec tesko bilo
da ga se zaustavi. Iz brojnih bunkera ili vec cega bi se odlicno branio ulaz
u tunel i tih stotinak metara piste. Na jednoj skici koju sam video (tj
pokazao mi je otac kod kuce) bila je nacrtana komora za razradjivanje motora
u kojo se nalazilo osam aviona (znaci valjda ih je toliko moglo da poleti
odjednom kada se otvore vrata). Inace cini mi se da su nasi zabrljali nesto
oko ugovaranja poslova i izgradnji ali po onome sto znam mislim i dalje
da su te baze ipak na kraju bile izgradjene (nemojte me pitati ko kada i kako)
Sve u svemu bojim se da ce braca ameri da se grdno namuce :(
svet.165dejanr,
>> jer su belci fizički slabiji od crnaca (vidi samo sve one crnce
>> sportiste - nigde nema belaca!)
Ne baš u svakom sportu - uzmi recimo plivanje.
svet.166dejanr,
>> Sa druge strane Iračka vojna komanda je saopštila da
>> su njihovi piloti "hrabri orlovi" oborili 14 američkih aviona.
Iskreno, očekivao sam da će Iračani reći da su oborili stotine
i hiljade aviona tako da mi je ova "umerenost" sasvim nejasna.
Uopšte, nešto su se mnogo ućutali. Ili nešto spremaju (šta bi
mogli spremati?) ili su u haosu pa su "podvili rep". Nadam se da
je ovo drugo.
Zanimljive su popodnevne vesti da su savezničke trupe ušle u
Kuvajt i zatekle potpuno prazan (fantomski) grad čijeg se imena
ne mogu da setim. Stara je istina da (uz svu modernu tehniku)
nema pobede na nekoj teritoriji ako preko nje ne pređe pešadija
tako da su ovakvi pokreti ono što ide prema kraju rata (ili
njegovom jačem rasplamsavanju).
svet.167dejanr,
>> Iracani su verovatno u soku, mozda su ocekivali da sad krene krdo
>> amera da marsira kroz pustinju (partizanen) pa da ih ovi skidaju
>> ko golubove, ali su ameri izabrali sjajnu taktiku.
Ako su Iračani očekivali da će ih prvo napasti pešadija, onda su
totalno blesavi. Naime, već par meseci se *svuda* (novine, tv, analize,
BIX, Sezam i ostali ugledni mediji) pričalo da će prvi udar biti
izvršen avijacijom/raketama i da će onesposobiti irački aerodromi,
komunikacioni centri i delovi industrije. Naravno, nije se moglo znati
koliko će takav napad biti uspešan.
Osim toga, Iračani teško da su mogli biti iznenađeni *trenutkom* napada
- prva noć posle isteka roka, znalo se da će saveznici udariti noću
kada su nadmoćni zahvaljujući svojoj elektronici.
Iznenađenja, dakle, nema - ako je Irak razoren ovim napadom, ako mu
je avijacija uništena na zemlji, elitna garda uništena itd, stvarno
mi nije jasno po kojoj su oni logici uopšte ulazili u rat i šta su
očekivali da će biti? Da će Alah poobarati avione gromovima?
svet.168dejanr,
>> Nebi rekao da su im sistemi veze funkcionisali bas lose.
>> Reporteri CNN-a su slali direktne izvestaje iz Bagdada posredstvom
>> komunikacione opreme Ministarstva odbrane Iraka.
Priča se (na BIX-u) da ti reporteri *nisu* sve vreme bili u hotelu u
kome su govorili da su bili (iz bezbednosnih razloga koje nije teško
razumeti) i da *nisu* koristili javne linije (nikad to nisu eksplicitno
ni rekli, mada ni porekli) nego specijalnu opremu za direktnu komunikaciju
sa satelitom koja je radila preko baterija ili agregata...
Naravno, Bog zna šta je tu stvarno istina, jer Amerikanci tvrde da
javni komunikacioni centri i nisu bili meta prvog napada... No
bombarderi i dalje lete, sada je i tamo noć, verovatno je ponovo
"vruće".
svet.169dejanr,
Upravo čujem da je Izrael napadnut tj. da su bile dve eksplozije u Tel Avivu.
Nije poznato da li se radi o nekim raketama koje nisu uništene u napadu prošle
noći ili o diverziji, ne zna se ništa o štetama a nije ni jasno da li su
upotrebljeni bojni otrovi premda je stanovništvu savetovano da stave gas maske
i ostanu u zatvorenim prostorijama...
svet.170vcalic,
Po vestima koje su upravo stigle, SCUD rakete koje su pale na Izrael
nisu nosile bojne otrove. Vojne vlasti Izraela su objavile da građani mogu
skinuti maske.
WR
svet.171bojt,
5 raketa tipa SCUD palo je na Izrael, od toga 2 u Telaviv.
Izgleda da su imale hemijske bojeve glave. Po Pentagonu,
navodno su ispaljene sa mobilnih lansirnih rampi negde
iz Iraka.
Očekuje se odgovor Izraela...
svet.172shone,
Tolko o "unistenju" svih lansirnih rampi i aeorodroma u Iraku.
svet.173bojt,
>> Tolko o "unistenju" svih lansirnih rampi i aeorodroma u Iraku.
Da. Pentagon pere ruke izjavama da su ispaljene sa pokretnih
lansirnih rampi (na kamionima), koji su bili sklonjeni
duboko pod zemljom i čekali pravi trenutak.
Pitanje je samo koliko još takvih ima...?
Priča se da je Irak čitavu svoju avijaciju premestio negde po
podzemnim skloništima na severu...
Sad je trenutno najveća opasnost da se stvar toliko ne
zategne da Izrael baci atomsku bombu...
svet.174dejanr,
Kako čujem na CNN-u, od 7 ispaljenih raketa dve su gađale
Tel Aviv, dve neke druge gradove čija imena nisam zapamtio,
jedna neku luku a dve su pale u more ;) Ni jedna raketa nije
nosila bojne otrove. Udari su bili relativno slabi i javlja
se svega o nekoliko lakše povređenih (ako je verovati...).
Komentatori kažu da je ovo "očajnički udarac" i da Irak ima
jako malo preostalih mobilnih lansera, jer bi da ima više
napao neke značajnije vojne ciljeve a ne bi samo pokušao da
zaplaši Izrael i uvede ga u rat što bi bez sumnje oslabilo
koaliciju.
Raketni napadi na Saudijsku Arabiju su demantovani, zapravo
izgleda da je novinar koji je to javio čuo lansiranje nekog
Američkog projektila (protivavionskog ili šta li) i protumačio
ga kao eksploziju. Takođe postoji izveštaj da je raketom gađan
Iran (!?) ali meni to izgleda vrlo čudno jer mislim da bi Irak
bio potpuno blesav da uvuče i Iran u rat protiv sebe bez izgleda
na ikakav dobitak.
Obzirom na beznačajne žrtve, komentator kaže da bi se Izrael "za
sada" mogao odreći uzvratnog udara. U svakom slučaju USA vrši
snažan diplomatski pritisak da tako uradi.
svet.175vcalic,
Jesi li ti to dežurni advokat islamskog fundamentalizma ???
WR
svet.176vcalic,
>>Pentagon pere ruke izjavama da su ispaljene sa pokretnih
>>lansirnih rampi (na kamionima), koji su bili sklonjeni
>>duboko pod zemljom i čekali pravi trenutak.
Postavlje se pitanje zašto nije ispaljeno više projektila. Da li su
Iračani zaista ostali bez mobilnih lansera, ili je u pitanju Sadamov trik !!?
>>Priča se da je Irak čitavu svoju avijaciju premestio negde po
>>podzemnim skloništima na severu...
Šteta što se i SSSR nije uključio u rat. Ne bi Irak imao gde da
premešta avijaciju...
>>Sad je trenutno najveća opasnost da se stvar toliko ne zategne da Izrael
>>baci atomsku bombu...
Za sada još uvek nije jasno hoće li Izrael odgovoriti na napad. Ovo
je direktan napad Iraka, formalno, a rekao bih i suštinski, potpuno nevezan
za akciju Alijanse, na jednu suverenu zemlju, koja nije imala svoje trupe u
sastavu Alijanse. Prema tome, Izraelu je objavljen rat, i zaista ne znam šta
bi trebalo da se dogodi pa da Izrael odustane od odgovora.
Moje lično mišljenje je da je ovo idealna prilika za uništavanje
najvećeg neprijatelja zapadne civilizacije, tj. islamskog fundamentalizma.
Zbog toga bi Izreal trebalo da napadne ne samo Irak, već i Siriju, Jordan,
Iran, i ostale zemlje u kojima je Islam državna ideologija. Naravno, u tome
bi trebalo da se priključe i zemlje Alijanse, i po mogućstvu SSSR. Bez
obzira što bi to značilo WWIII, to je jedino rešenje za Zapad, sem ako možda
Zapad ne želi da se buduća pokoljenja klanjaju Alahu.
WR
svet.177vcalic,
>>Raketni napadi na Saudijsku Arabiju su demantovani, zapravo
>>izgleda da je novinar koji je to javio čuo lansiranje nekog
>>Američkog projektila (protivavionskog ili šta li) i protumačio
>>ga kao eksploziju.
Izgleda da su Iračani ipak lansirali projektil u pravcu Saudijske
Arabije, i to izgleda samo jedan, ali i taj jedan je uništilo američki
protivraketni projektil.
WR
svet.178miha,
>> Moje lično mišljenje je da je ovo idealna prilika za uništavanje
>>najvećeg neprijatelja zapadne civilizacije, tj. islamskog fundamentalizma.
>>Zbog toga bi Izreal trebalo da napadne ne samo Irak, već i Siriju, Jordan,
>>Iran, i ostale zemlje u kojima je Islam državna ideologija. Naravno, u tome
>>bi trebalo da se priključe i zemlje Alijanse, i po mogućstvu SSSR. Bez
>>obzira što bi to značilo WWIII, to je jedino rešenje za Zapad, sem ako možda
>>Zapad ne želi da se buduća pokoljenja klanjaju Alahu.
Eh, onda bi i Srbija mogla da rješi svoje "južno pitanje" na odgovarajući i,
po mom skromnom mišljenju, najefikasniji način ;)
Što se Sirije tiče. mislim da će kad-tad doći na crnu listu Amera, jer su,
uz Irak, jedina Arapska regionalna sila (Izraelce namjerno isključujem jer :
1. nisu Arapi, a iz toga sljedi : 2. ne okreću se kako vjetar puše te neće
zabosti Amerikancima nož u leđa).
miha
svet.179bojt,
Bogami, slabo nešto dolaze vesti iz zaliva... Izgleda da je
veća frka tamo nego što je stvoren utisak.
Inače, istorijska izjava ambasadora Iraqa pri UN, na pitanje
voditelja CNN-a (otprilike):
"A kako možete pričati o pravednosti kada je Irak lansirao
rakete na civilne ciljeve u Izraelu?"
"To nije tačno! Svaki punoletan Izraelac je vojnik!"
Baš izjava "a la" lanik ;))
svet.180dejanr,
>> Prema tome, Izraelu je objavljen rat, i zaista ne znam šta
>> bi trebalo da se dogodi pa da Izrael odustane od odgovora.
Koliko sam čuo, Izrael je odgovor prepustio USA i saveznicima,
očito pod "malim" pritiskom Vašingtona. Naravno, uz uslov da ne
bude ponovo napadnut u kom slučaju zadržava sva prava na odbranu.
Rekao bih da je Izrael pokazao veliku dozu političke mudrosti (ili
da je USA upotrebio veliku dozu pritiska ;)
Jedino što me čudi da se američke snage uspele da obore JEDINI
projektil usmeren na Saudijsku Arabiju (što je, istini za volju,
prilično dostignuće uzevši koliko projektil nisko leti) a Izraelu
nije uspelo da presretne *ni jedan* od 7 ispaljenih prema njemu.
Očito da njihova vojska nije bila dovoljno pripravna.
svet.181lanik,
>> Hajde Lanik, budimo realni... Pa Hitler je temeljno razradio tvoju
ideju i još temeljnije je sprovodio u delo. Razmisli malo... <<
Bojte, ne budi smešan. Ja nigde nisam rekao da bi poubijao
crnce, arape i sve ostale za koje mislim da su niže rase. Ja samo
tvrdim da su oni manje intelektualno sposobni od belaca; i uopšte mi ne
smetaju - dok god se drže svojih džungla i geta.
I nemoj da se vredjamo! Ti sebe predstavljaš kao nekog
kulturnog čoveka?
Još mi samo objasni, što je to što ja mislim toliko strašno? Do
pre samo pedeset do sto godina, ja i moji istomišljenici bi čak bili u
većini, i niko ne bi mislio da smo ludi ili nešto. To je samo stvar
vremena u kome živiš.
Danas su vam svima isprali mozak o nekoj jednakosti koja ne
postoji. I verovatno nikada neće ni postojati.
svet.182lanik,
Al' si me fascinirao sa tom porukom, nemaš pojma Boyte! ;))))
Genijalno! Hajde, mogu i ja da uzmem tvoje poruke i da uradim
to isto i da se vrtimo u krug u beskonačnost...
svet.183lanik,
>> Vrlo inspirativan primer generalizacije... <<
Ma kakva generalizacija! Takvih primera ima koliko hoćeš! I baš
slučajno su *svi* Arapi koji su se školovali u JAT-ovoj školi loši
piloti?!?? Oni su *prirodno* glupi!
Gledaj ovog Huseina šta radi, pa mi posle kaži da ti Iračani
imaju sve ovce na broju. Tipični fanatici. A ni Iranci nisu ništa
bolji, kada su mogli da se kokaju sa Iračanima sve one godine... Koliko
je to već procenata Arapskog sveta? ;)
Uzgred, jel' si gledao na TV "biografiju" onog debila Huseina?
Kažu da je prvi put ubio u 17-toj godini. I takav čovek ima nekoliko
miliona sledbenika. Priznaćeš da su tih nekoliko miliona njegovih
sledbenika 100% Arapi. I da sa njima mora da nešto nije u redu - oni
svoje ludačke ideje opravdavaju religijom i Alahom.
I kako za takve ljude da nadješ neko opravdanje? I zašto je
loše smatrati takve fanatike "smrdljivim" i "nižim" od sebe?
Ali, ako se ti smatraš jednak sa nekim sledbenikom Sadana
Huseina - to je tvoje pravo; mogao bi da ideš da postaviš bombu u
najbližu samoposlugu - za "pravu" stvar!
>> (kako se ono zvaše... ŠŠŠ)...
Shiraz Shavji (ili tako nekako)
Pa kao što sam negde već napisao, uvek postoje izuzetci. Ja sam
samo govorio o narodima i rasama *u većini*.
Zašto je, naprimer, pogrešno kazati: "Srbi su ovčice, možeš da
ih j*beš 500 godina dok im ne pukne film", kada je to u principu
istina? Srbi su to tokom istorije više puta dokazali - zadnji put na
izborima 9-tog decembra. Što ne znači da su *svi* Srbi takvi - ja sam
na primer, glasao za vojvodu Šešelja. Ne znam za koga si ti?
Ako neka stavka "radi" i samo u 60-70% slučajeva, može se uzeti
kao ispravna. Ne?
svet.184lanik,
>> Pogresno,18 000 tona bombi.
>> Nazdravlje! Sad im se ispunila zelja da poginu za Sadama.
Poštovani gospodine Mandiću,
Bez ikakve želje da vas uvlačim u diskusiju koju vodim sa
Boytom i još nekim korisnicima na sezamu, o rasnoj ravnopravnosti, i bez
ikakve želje da vam se podsmevam ili da vas uvredim, moram izneti sledeći
moj komentar:
Evo ga još jedan koji smatra da su sve rase jednake i
ravnopravne ali mu i ne smeta kada Ameri pobiju "mirišljave" Arape!
;))))))
Pozdrav,
Dalibor Lanik
svet.185lanik,
>> setaju misa po shofer-sajbni il kako se vec zove to kod avijona). <<
Nije kod "avijona" već kod "aviona" i zove se "wind-screen" ili
"wind-shield".
P.S. Gde su ti YU-slova?
svet.186lanik,
>> It's 6:21 pm, my name is Dražen and goodbye Iraq wherever you were.
A i ti "voliš" arape...
svet.187lanik,
>> stvarno mi nije jasno po kojoj su oni logici uopšte ulazili u rat i
šta su očekivali da će biti? Da će Alah poobarati avione gromovima? <<
Pa s obzirom na prosečni intelektualni nivo Iračana (a posebno
Sadama Huseina), moguće je da su očekivali BAŠ TO! ;)))
svet.188lanik,
>> Šteta što se i SSSR nije uključio u rat. <<
Evo koliko ljudi vole Arape... ;)))))))
svet.189lanik,
>> Baš izjava "a la" lanik ;))
E baš ga pogodi! Pa ja nemam ništa protiv Izraelaca!!!!
svet.190vcalic,
>>Jedino što me čudi da se američke snage uspele da obore JEDINI
>>projektil usmeren na Saudijsku Arabiju (što je, istini za volju,
>>prilično dostignuće uzevši koliko projektil nisko leti) a Izraelu
>>nije uspelo da presretne *ni jedan* od 7 ispaljenih prema njemu.
>>Očito da njihova vojska nije bila dovoljno pripravna.
Ameri su iračke SCUD-ove obarali projektilima PATRIOT, koji su prvi
put isprobani u ovom ratu, i koje Izrael ne poseduje.
WR
svet.191vcalic,
>>A ni Iranci nisu ništa bolji, kada su mogli da se kokaju sa Iračanima sve
>>one godine... Koliko je to već procenata Arapskog sveta? ;)
A odakle tebi ideja, Lanik, da su Iranci Arapi. Da nisi pročitao u
uputstvu za upotrebu Atarija ?
>> Ako neka stavka "radi" i samo u 60-70% slučajeva, može se uzeti
>>kao ispravna. Ne?
Ne.
WR
svet.192vcalic,
>> P.S. Gde su ti YU-slova?
A gde je tebi računar ???
WR
svet.193vcalic,
>> Evo koliko ljudi vole Arape... ;)))))))
Baš si mene našao da citiraš!!! Odmah da ti kažem da bih ja poubijao
sve Arape kada bih u rukama imao moć koja bi mi to omogućila.
WR
svet.194vcalic,
Da li ste čuli da je u Velikoj Gorici kod Zagreba, u nekom vojnom
objektu (ne znam tačno o čemu se radi), pre dva meseca primljeno na remont 14
Iračkih lovaca. Pre nedelju dana oni su vraćeni Iračanima.
WR
svet.195vcalic,
SAD su upravo Izraelu isporučile izvesnu količinu PATRIOT projektila.
WR
svet.196ppekovic,
>>> P.S. Gde su ti YU-slova?
>
> A gde je tebi računar ???
:))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Paya
svet.198dpozaric,
****************************
Bojte, ne budi smešan. Ja nigde nisam rekao da bi poubijao
crnce, arape i sve ostale za koje mislim da su niže rase. Ja samo
tvrdim da su oni manje intelektualno sposobni od belaca; i uopšte mi ne
smetaju - dok god se drže svojih džungla i geta.
****************************
E, Dalibore, prvo si se branio od optužbi da ih smatraš nižom rasom,
sada se braniš da ih ne bi ubijao, a u slijedećoj poruci ćeš reći da
nikad nisi rekao da ih ne bi ubijao. Zapetljavaš se sve više, i sa
zadovoljstvom ću replicirati na tvoje poruke dok god se u njima sam
ne udaviš ili odustaneš. :))
Da malo napravimo kronologiju, evo tvrdnje iz prve (mislim) poruke na
ovu temu na koju smo reagirali:
**********************
Apsolutno se slažem! Treba već jednom pokazati tim smrdljivim
arapima šta smeju a šta ne. Za svo ovo odugovlačenje oko napada na
**********************
Poruka br. 2.85 FORUM:svet
**********************
Sve to o rasnoj ravnopravnosti je trenutna moda - samo će vreme
pokazati da su "nazadni" rasistički stavovi ipak tačni.
.
.
Don't get me wrong: ne kažem ja da su oni manje ljudi nego mi,
ali su intelektualno inferiorni u odnosu na belce.
**********************
Nađi mi nekoga tko bi ovo mogao shvatiti "right", odnosno, nađi vezu
između ove dvije tvrdnje. To sam te već jednom pitao ali nisi to
učinio. Nazadni rasistički stavovi iza kojih stojiš i koje smatraš
točnima kažu upravo da su oni manje ljudi nego mi, odnosno, Bijelci.
Osim toga, po tim shvatanjima ih treba i iskorijeniti. Ti podržavaš
te stavove, što znači da oni *jesu* i tvoji. Griješim li ?
Mi smo (Jugoslaveni) vjerojatno "najneodgojeniji, najprljaviji i
najnekulturniji, najzaostaliji šljam osim Crnaca". "Dokaz" tome je
činjenica da nas nitko ne šiša ni *ovoliko*. Pošto imaš iskustva sa
arapskim svijetom, pitaj malo njih što misle o nama. Imali bi pravo
da kažu da smo najveći bezveznjaci koji postoje jer ionako malo što
imamo dajemo njima koji nam to nikad neće vratiti.
2.88 FORUM:svet
***********************
A kada po Jugi bude više džamija od crkava, pitaću te šta ćeš
misliti o Arapima...
***********************
Nisi me uvjerio da pomislim nešto drugo osim onoga što sam i prije
mislio, a to je da su to ljudi koji imaju prava na život kao svi mi,
te pravo da se razvijaju. Koliko će oni svoje prvo i drugo pravo
iskoristiti, to je njihov problem. Ako se poput pijavice prilijepe
nekome na leđa, onda to nije njihov problem nego problem vlasnika
leđa. Ako se tako snađu i ako im vlasnik leđa ništa ne može, onda
njima treba čestitati jer oni su superiornija rasa (po tvojoj
teoriji) jer iskorištavaju nas Bijelce (Evropljane) kao što mi i
Amerikanci iskorištavamo (ili smo iskorištavali) Crnce iz Afrike,
Indijce sa potkontinenta itd.
2.128 FORUM:svet
***********************
Hmm... to nisam znao. Thanx for the information. Ali, ja u
svakom slučaju i ne mislim na *sve* Arape i na sve koji veruju u Alaha.
Kada kažem "zaglupljeni Arapi" mislim *na većinu*, jer je to jedino
kako se *narodi* mogu posmatrati. Znači, nije u pitanju da i medju
Arapima, i medju Šiptarima ima dobrih ljudi. Ali u svakom žitu ima...
kao i obrnuto! ;)))
**********************
Ovo je već utjeha za Arape. Sad već nisu svi glupi nego ih je samo
većina *zaglupljena*.
Tvoja ideja o tome da se većina naroda može jedino posmatrati odnosno
da su činjenice vezane uz većinu relevantne je istinita, no ti ni u
kom slučaju nisi imao iskustva sa *većinom* već sa dijelom Arapa pa
nemaš nikakva prava tako globalizirati jer iza toga ne stoje
istraživanja nego puko tvoje mišljenje pročitano tko zna gdje, ili si
to jednostavno čuo složivši se odmah. Ne kažem da nisi o tome
razmišljao, dakako, nego pokušavam reći da misliš pogrešno.
2.129 FORUM:svet
**********************
Normalno je da kada ti danas školuješ jednog crnca i omogućiš
mu sve uslove za obrazovanje, da će on biti ravan svakom belcu. Ali što
ti crnci nisu izmislili koledže i stvorili uslove da se sami školuju?
Zašto su svi veliki naučnici bili (i još uvek jesu) belci? Zašto je
današnja tehnička kultura *belačka* (anglo-saksonska)? Pa Afrika je
NAJZAOSTALIJI kontinent! Ma neeeeee.... nema to veze sa inteligencijom!
Jok!
**********************
I svaki Amerikanac kojeg školuješ ...itd. Ostavi ga na ulici i ostat
će uličar ako je neinteligentan odnosno ako nema sreće da sa dna
društvene ljestvice dobije priliku da se uspne.
**********************
Jedini uspešni crnci danas su zabavljači i sportisti. Ima vrlo
malo naučnika crnaca. A to samo ide u prilog mojoj tvrdniji, jer su
belci fizički slabiji od crnaca (vidi samo sve one crnce sportiste -
nigde nema belaca!), a crnci su intelektualno "slabiji" od belaca.
**********************
A mi smo Jugoslaveni u svijetu "poznati po neograničenoj gluposti i po
lopovluku, tako da nam se i Turci smiju. Veoma često putujem po
Italiji i samo zahvaljujući činjenici što govorim talijanski gotovo
jednako dobro kao hrvatski, ne dolazim u neugodne situacije u koje
dolaze moji zemljaci pred tim tvojim *civiliziranim i naprednim*
zapadnim svijetom.
**********************
I uopšte mi ih nije žao! Neka pola crnaca budu beskućnici u
Americi, i neka se samo bune! To je sve zato što su oni NERADNICI i
LENJžUGE i samo se bune i pričaju, a ovamo primaju socijalnu pomoć i
samo su društvu na teretu (Američki crnci). Crnci u Americi su ISTO što
šiptari u Srbiji. Šljam koji ne radi i živi od rada drugih na
socijalnoj pomoći. žast izuzecima kao što su Bil Kozbi, Arsenio Hol i
drugi...
*************************
Ni meni ih nije žao, osim kad su kao rase kritizirani na račun rasne
ili kao narodi na račun nacionalne pripadnosti. Osnova mišljenja
svakog rasiste je da je najčešće nesposoban za konstruktivnu kritiku
pa se zadržava ne nekorektno odabranim egzemplarima bez pronicanja u
dubinu problema. To mu daje široke mogućnosti manevra, no samo kad
razgovara sa onima koji razgovaraju poput njega.
I dobar dio Jugoslavena su NERADNICI i LJENžUGE čemu u prilog
najbolje govori stanje u privredi. Osim toga, još smo i lopovi nad
lopovima. No, da li smo svi takvi ?
2.130 FORUM:svet
*************************
Dražene, možeš ti da budeš koliko god hoćeš "kulturan" i
obrazovan (uzgred, obrazovanje nema NIKAKVE veze sa kulturom i sa ovim
o čemu pričamo), i ja u to da si ti obrazovan i kulturan i ne sumnjam,
ali ako nemaš ličnog iskustva, nemožeš *uvek* da shvatiš stvari onakvim
kakve jesu.
*************************
Oooo, ima, itekakve. Ako si nekulturan, onda ti svo učenje neće
omogućiti da stvari shvatiš onako kako treba. Pod onim *nekulturan*
podrazumijevam da čovjek nema u svoju psihu usađene osnovne
civilizacijske tekovine među kojima je i tolerancija odnosno
razumijevanje. Ako nemaš razumijevanje za druge, onda nemaš ni za
sebe ni za ono o čemu slušaš ili raspravljaš. To dovodi do toga da u
svojoj glavi stvoriš izopačenu sliku svijeta i njegova uređenja što
se događa upravo nacionalistima, rasistima, fašistima.
I ta izopačena slika je onda ona *ispravna* koju nam takvi poput tebe
prodaju. A o tome koliko je ispravna dovoljno govori to da su uvijek
bili potrebni ratovi i nasilje da se *meni slične budale* *uvjere* da
je to tako i nikako drugačije. Sjeti se II svjetskog rata i
Qu-Qlux-Klana, valjda ti je dovoljno.
*************************
>> O Arapima ću uvijek isto misliti, a promijenit ću eventualno
mišljenje o grupi Muslimana koja bude kriva za to što je do toga
eventualno došlo i u skladu s time se i ponašati. <<
Zar prema tome nije lakše "generalno" tvrditi da su Arapi
"negativci" nego se tu "vaditi" na neku "lošu" manjinu? Neki narodi su
predodredjeni na svoje uloge, ništa to nije slučajno. Svaki narod ima
svoje loše strane, neki manje - neki više.
*************************
Ja se ne *vadim* na neku manjinu nego ti pričaš na osnovu *dobro
poznatih rasističkih istina*. Nitko nije predodređen ni za što, svi
smo rođeni i to je jedina jednakost među nama. Kad počnemo disati,
već smo različiti od svih ljudi na svijetu i predstavljamo
jedinstvenu i neponovljivu jedinku. Sama činjenica da smo rođeni
različiti i u različitim uvjetima, kad na nju pridodaš i to da nemamo
svi jednake uslove rasta i razvoja, dovodi do toga da *nema teorije*
da smo za nešto predodređeni. Da ima Boga koji za bilo što nekoga
predodredi, dao bi mu onda i uslove da to ostvari. Ako taj netko nema
sposobnosti da nešto postigne - zbogom đaci ! To što je netko nadaren
za umjetnost pa na tome polju i uspije (ovo je vrlo relativan pojam),
može se zahvaliti činjenici da ili je ta jedinka imala sreću da je
netko uputi na umjetnost ili da je sama shvatila tu svoju prednost
nad drugima i imala mogućnost da se izbori za svoje mjesto pod kapom
nebeskom. Ako pak netko takav, potencijalni umjetnik, živi u Bronxu i
nema što da jede pa ga prikolje neki manijak dok je pljačkao ili
silovao majku koja ga je držala u naručju, onda taj netko može da se
slika sa svojom *predodređenošću*.
*********************
Šiptari su glupi i lako je manipulisati njima. Slovenci
naprimer imaju tipičan kompleks malog naroda. Hrvati imaju komplekse
jer nikada nisu bili država i jer su uvek bili nečiji "satelit". Srbi
su malo priglupi (čim su glasali za komuniste) i nekulturni, ali šta se
tu može? To su činjenice i ništa ih neće promeniti. To što istina
ponekad boli, - to je sasvim druga stvar.
*********************
Šiptari nisu glupi, to tvrdim i iza toga stojim. čivim u gradu gdje
je većina Šiptara toliko bogata koliko ti samo možeš zamisliti.
Obogatili su se na račun šljakera sa Kosova koji rade praktički
džabe, no oni nisu glupi nego neobrazovani i nemaju pojma što im se
dešava. To se između ostaloga može zahvaliti nekontroliranom rađanju
i vjerskom ludilu, kao i represiji pod kojom oni žive od osnivanja
Jugoslavije.
*********************
>> Ti ne samo da si užasno nazadan, nego i prilično ograničen kako sam
slobodan primijetiti, a osjećam da i ostali ovdje misle slično. <<
Još jednom, hvala na komplimentima.
*********************
Nema na čemu, Lanik, i drugi put. Dokaži mi suprotno i ja ću sa
izuzetnim zadovoljstvom, ovdje pred svima, popljuvati sam sebe i
povući ovo što sam rekao.
**********************
>> čelite li ti i tvoji pajtosi sada uvjeriti ostale kako je Hitleru
trebalo dati Nobelovu nagradu za mir ? <<
To, za Hitlera, to je tvoja ideja i to si ti rekao.
********************************
Jok, upravo ti zagovaraš teorije koje su podržavali
nacionalsocijalisti, to nema veze sa mnom. Ja samo *branim* Arape i
Crnce pred tvojim *argumentima* i to nema veze sa fašizmom.
2.135 FORUM:svet
*********************************
Zapamtivši instruktorove reči, ovaj genijalni pilot je u finalu
doveo avion do prvog ravnanja (na 3-5 metara) i pustio komande!
Normalno, tako je "bupnuo" sa 3 metra da je izlomio celi stajni trap.
Kada je izašao iz aviona (neozledjen), rekao je začudjenom instruktoru:
"pa rekli ste mi da će sam da sleti!".
I ako su Arapi onda pametni, e j*biga!
*********************************
Jes', vala' zaista su glupi kad je među njima jedan tako glupi
čovjek. A mi smo još gluplji kad dozvoljavamo da su nam na vlasti
HDZ, SPS i slični...
2.181 FORUM:svet
*********************************
Još mi samo objasni, što je to što ja mislim toliko strašno? Do
pre samo pedeset do sto godina, ja i moji istomišljenici bi čak bili u
većini, i niko ne bi mislio da smo ludi ili nešto. To je samo stvar
vremena u kome živiš.
**********************************
Da ste bili u većini - dobili biste rat. Ovako, pošto ste ga
izgubili, možete samo žaliti za tim i sa sjetom se prisjećati kralja
i otadžbine i sličnim što vam Šešelj prodaje, ili Pavelića i NDH sa
druge strane.
***********************************
Danas su vam svima isprali mozak o nekoj jednakosti koja ne
postoji. I verovatno nikada neće ni postojati.
***********************************
Prazna priča, pucanj u prazno, Lanik. Ovdje nitko ne govori o
jednakosti već o razumijevanju. Nerazumijevanje dovodi do ratova,
čemu govori u prilog i ovaj najnoviji rat. Da su fundamentalisti
blaži i da nas kršćane manje mrze samo zbog toga što smo kršćani,
toga ne bi bilo, kao ni da nema američke gladi i straha zbog nafte.
I, naravno, šporke politike koju ne vode narodi ni rase nego prokleti
pojedinci za koje glasamo na izborima.
2.186 FORUM:svet
*********************************
>> It's 6:21 pm, my name is Dražen and goodbye Iraq wherever you were.
A i ti "voliš" arape...
*********************************
Jesam li igdje rekao da ih volim ? Ja ne volim neargumentiranost, i
kad tebi repliciram onda to činim zbog toga. To nema veze sa mojom
ljubavi prema ovome ili onome. Već sam ovdje jednom rekao da volim
samo svoju djevojku, svoju obitelj i sebe, baš tim redoslijedom.
Ostale ne volim nego podnosim i živim sa njima u razumijevanju i u
slozi. Ako se sa nekim ne slažem, ja za njega ne govorim da je glup i
zaostao zbog toga_i_toga. Ako već i mislim da je zaostao, onda mu to
pokušam i dokazati (ako ima smisla) ili ga ostavim samom sebi.
žak i činjenica da mi netko smeta ne daje mi za pravo da smatram da
ga treba iskorijeniti, zbrisati. Takvo me moje shvatanje strahovito
udaljava od fašističkih ideja kojih se grozim.
svet.199dpozaric,
*********************
Da li ste čuli da je u Velikoj Gorici kod Zagreba, u nekom vojnom
objektu (ne znam tačno o čemu se radi), pre dva meseca primljeno na remont 14
Iračkih lovaca. Pre nedelju dana oni su vraćeni Iračanima.
*********************
Ne bi se reklo... Prema informacijama koje ja posjedujem, oko toga je
bilo frke prije jedno mjesec-dva jer je hrvatska vlada digla u
federaciji uzbunu zbog istoga pošto je to izvođeno na vojnom
aerodromu u Velikoj Gorici (ili tamo negdje). Avioni sa iračkim
oznakama viđani su iznad Zagreba u trenažnom letu, a nakon izbijanja
frke nitko ih više nigdje nije vidio jer su ekspedirani prvo na
Batajnicu a odande tko zna kamo.
Smijem li znati odakle ti informacija da je to bilo prošlog tjedna ?
Pa ne treba 2 mjeseca za remont 14 MIG-ova, čak ni kod nas ???
Osim toga, ja sam čuo za 6 takvih aparata. Vazduhoplovci, javite se,
valjda nešto znate o tome !!! :))
DP
svet.200dpozaric,
******************
>>A ni Iranci nisu ništa bolji, kada su mogli da se kokaju sa Iračanima sve
>>one godine... Koliko je to već procenata Arapskog sveta? ;)
A odakle tebi ideja, Lanik, da su Iranci Arapi. Da nisi pročitao u
uputstvu za upotrebu Atarija ?
******************
Jok, tako kaže "Mein Kampf" i tu nema što da se provjerava. ;)
svet.201bojt,
Ok lanik, nemoj se ljutiti. Svaki čovek ima pravo da misli šta god
hoće, pitanje je samo na koji način to iskazuje i to je meni bilo
sporno kod tebe. Isto tako, svaki čovek takodje ima pravo da bira
svoje sagovornike.
Bye lanik...
svet.202kale,
>> Da li ste čuli da je u Velikoj Gorici kod Zagreba, u nekom
>> vojnom objektu (ne znam tačno o čemu se radi), pre dva meseca primljeno
>> na remont 14 Iračkih lovaca. Pre nedelju dana oni su vraćeni Iračanima.
NIŠTA NAS NE SME IZNENADITI !!! :((((((
Stara, ali kod nas vrlo aktuelna parola! :((((((
svet.203pvoja,
;>
Yo wr !
svet.204lanik,
>> A odakle tebi ideja, Lanik, da su Iranci Arapi. Da nisi
pročitao u uputstvu za upotrebu Atarija ?
Sezam je baš lepo mesto da čovek sazna koliko su neki vlasnici
IBM računara iskompleksirani.
Pričamo o arapima, politici, rasnoj ravnopravnosti i stvarima
koje nemaju nikakvih dodirnih tačaka sa računarima. Naravno, onda
jednom pametnom vlasniku PC-ja ponestane argumenata, i odmah - udri po
atariju. Šta ćeš, nije nam bog svima dao jednaku inteligenciju. Ako ne
možeš da kažeš nešto pametno, onda barem pljuj po nečemu što nema veze
sa diskusijom i što misliš da će iznervirati sagovornika.
A molim te, pametnjakoviću, šta su Iranci? Da nisu možda
hrišćani?
A ako misliš da su oni potomci starih Iranaca (oni iz
Mesopotamije i Vavilona) grdno se varaš. Oni imaju veze sa njima isto
toliko koliko i današnji Egipćani sa starim Egipćanima. I isto koliko i
naši današnji Makedonci sa starim Makedoncima.
Uzgred, potražio sam u atarijevom uputstvu podatke o Irancima.
Nažalost, atarijevo uputstvo nije veoma obimno, i ima samo nekoliko
strana, jer je atari KOMPJUTER, te je stoga kompjuter prilagodjen
čoveku - jer mu je svrha da čoveku olakša rad, a ne obratno, kako mora
kod nekih računara. Ali nešto ipak piše. Piše: "For further details on
Iranians, please consult your MS-DOS manual". Onda sam pogledao u moj
MS-DOS manual (za jednu staru verziju, 2.2 mislim) i tamo piše da su
Iranci Arapi i da im je vera Islam. Don't take my word for it -
pogledaj sam. Možda su do verzije 4.0 (ili koja je danas aktuelna)
napravili još neke dopune.
>> Ako neka stavka "radi" i samo u 60-70% slučajeva, može se
uzeti kao ispravna. Ne?
>> >> Ne.
Nema šta. Veoma argumentovan stav.
Pa *ne* ako se radi o nekim prirodnim naukama, ali kada su
ljudi i društvene nauke u pitanju, odgovor je *da*.
svet.205lanik,
>> A gde je tebi računar ???
Moj računar (hvala na pitanju) je sasvim OK. Ima na njemu neka
nalepnica, koja kako sam shvatio i video za ovo vreme koliko se bavim
računarima, fali mnogim PC-jima. Možda i *ne* fali, ali tekst koji je
na tim nalepnicama se BITNO razlikuje.
Na mojoj mašini piše: Made in West Germany
A na tvojoj, verovatno: Made in Taiwan
svet.206vcalic,
>> Sezam je baš lepo mesto da čovek sazna koliko su neki vlasnici
>>IBM računara iskompleksirani.
I koliko neki vlasnici Atarija nemaju pojma sa životom.
>> A molim te, pametnjakoviću, šta su Iranci? Da nisu možda
>>hrišćani?
Alal' ti vera. Znači po tebi je Musliman = Arapin. Baš mi je žao
naših muslimana koji su eto tolike godine mislili da su slovenskog porekla, a
sad "Lanikovim dekretom" odjednom postali Arapi.
No, bolje da se ne upuštaš u dalju diskusiju, jer samo pokazuješ
osnovno nepoznavanje istorije. Pre svega, današnji Iranci su potomci starih
Persijanaca koji.... Ma šta ja to tebi pričam. Javi se ako hoćeš časove
istorije. Za cenu ćemo se dogovoriti.
>> Nema šta. Veoma argumentovan stav.
Kao i tvoj, uostalom.
>>Ali nešto ipak piše. Piše: "For further details on
>>Iranians, please consult your MS-DOS manual". Onda sam pogledao u moj
>>MS-DOS manual (za jednu staru verziju, 2.2 mislim) i tamo piše da su
>>Iranci Arapi i da im je vera Islam.
Pa, to bi otprilike značilo da u MS-DOS manuelu bar nešto i piše, za
razliku od Atari manuala, gde ne piše ništa, sem da je Atari kompjuter, a to
je tvrdnja koja može da prođe samo kod male dece i kod Lanika.
WR
svet.207vcalic,
>> Na mojoj mašini piše: Made in West Germany
>>
>> A na tvojoj, verovatno: Made in Taiwan
Kako na kom delu. Negde piše Made in USA, negde Made in Japan, a na
modemu stvarno piše Made in Taiwan. A to što na tvom Atariju piše to što piše
to i ne znači puno. Pobogu, pa i na mom mikeru piše Made in West Germany.
Ustvari, kad bolje porazmislim, ipak taj natpis znači dosta. Sa mojim
mikserom može mnogo više stvari da se uradi nego sa Atarijem.
WR
svet.212andrea,
> LENJCUGE i samo se bune i pricaju, a ovamo primaju socijalnu pomoc
i
> samo su drustvu na teretu (Americki crnci). Crnci u Americi su ISTO
sto
> siptari u Srbiji. Sljam koji ne radi i zivi od rada drugih na
> Siptari su glupi i lako je manipulisati njima. Slovenci
> imaju tipican kompleks malog naroda. Hrvati imaju komplekse
> jer nikada nisu bili drzava i jer su uvek bili neciji "satelit".
Srbi
> su malo priglupi (cim su glasali za komuniste) i nekulturni, ali
sta se
> tu moze? To su cinjenice i nista ih nece promeniti. To sto istina
Jeste li ikad pokusali instalirati CP/M ili nesto jos arhaicnije na
Convex
ili barem 386-icu? I onda se bunili kako je onaj Convex totalno
brezvezna
masina, glupa, zaostala ....
Ma da, primer i nije neki, no mislim da ce ovaj uvazeni skup shvatiti
sto
hocu da kazem. Nisu ni africani ni arapi ni juzni balkanci (oni koji
zive
juzno od Karavanki) manje inteligentni, ali ovaj sistemski softver
koji
imaju instaliran je u najboljem slucaju proizvod kompanije KP45 Inc.,
koja
je poznata po scr*w-up'd proizvodima ;)
Koliko ce dugo trajati promjena operacionog sistema? E - od par 10tak
godina
do ý, ovisi o rubnim uvjetima ;)
Inace, u SAD ima prilicno brojna skupina middle class crnca, koja se
jako
uvredi kad ima neko pominje lenjcuge u losim kvartovima. No u
americkom
ustavu ima paragraf po kome svatko moze raditi i pricati sto hoce, a
ne
raditi nije zabranjeno (ali dobro ziveti a ne raditi nije moguce, ako
slucajno starci nisu bili miljoneri, kao sto je to kod nas bilo 45
godina :)
Isto, ovi albanci u Sloveniji rade ko mravi, i svidjalo se to ljudima
ili
ne, mlate pare ...
Inace, negde sam procitala da je civilizacija na ovom planetu
rezultat slucaja
sto su se pre 3000 godina doline u Mezopotamiji, Egiptu i oupce na
Bliskom
istoku osusile pa su ljudi bili *prisiljeni* da nesto urade ili
crknu.
Ops, misljena je zapadna civilizacija, koja vuce od tuda korene. U
slucaju
Kine ista fora sa Jangce i Hoanho rekama.
Sad, to sto su uveti u Africi bili toliko ugodni da ljudima nije bilo
potrebno
raditi da zive....
A sever evrope postao je civiliziran tek kad je razvoj tehnike (tj.
gradnja kuca
, orudja za obradu zemlje, vadjenja rude , oruzja ;( itd.) dosla do
toga da
ljudi pored borbe za zivot imaju vremena i za ostalo (od ~ 1400
dalje).
p.s. Posto nisam neki istoricar, ovo je samo moje licno prepricavanje
stvari
i ne mora imati neke veze sa realnoscu.
svet.213shone,
> A molim te, pametnjakovicu, sta su Iranci? Da nisu mozda
>hriscani?
Hvala ti lanik sto si mme oslobodio jedne moje velike zablude.
Ja sam do sada mislio da sam slovenskog porekla, a vidim da sam
arapin. Za tebe su svi muslimmani na svetu Arapi. Pa tih Arapa nije
onda 200 miliona nego milijardu i kusur. Izgleda da su ga onda Ameri
stvarno ugasili!
shone
svet.214dpozaric,
************************
A molim te, pametnjakoviću, šta su Iranci? Da nisu možda
hrišćani?
************************
Lanik, ti bulazniš ! Pa hoćeš li nam osim *istine* o Atariju kao
najboljoj mašini sada početi servirati i istine o Arapima kao naciji
? Hoćeš li možda i naše jugoslavenske Muslimane strpati među kršćane,
Amerikance među kamile a šrafcigere među sazvježđa ? Pobrkao si
lončiće, načisto, kao što rekoh već (ne) jednom.
************************
Uzgred, potražio sam u atarijevom uputstvu podatke o Irancima.
************************
To sam i očekivao od tebe...
************************
>> Ako neka stavka "radi" i samo u 60-70% slučajeva, može se
uzeti kao ispravna. Ne?
>> >> Ne.
Nema šta. Veoma argumentovan stav.
************************
Na argumente odgovaraš argumentima iste ili slične kvalitete i
vjerodostojnosti, zar ne ?
************************
Pa *ne* ako se radi o nekim prirodnim naukama, ali kada su
ljudi i društvene nauke u pitanju, odgovor je *da*.
************************
Koji ljudi ? Iranci-Arapi, Slovenci-Muslimani ? Hrvati_sa_Madagaskara
?
svet.215dpozaric,
***************
Na mojoj mašini piše: Made in West Germany
A na tvojoj, verovatno: Made in Taiwan
***************
Na mom piše, na nekim dijelovima "Made in USA" a na drugima opet
"Made in Taiwan". I sretan sam zbog toga jer znam što iza toga stoji.
Da sam htio "Made in West Germany", onda bih kupio nešto drugo, no ja
sam ozbiljan čovjek. ;))
svet.216alexa,
Svu drugu priču na stranu, lanik, Iranci nisu Arapi.
Bolje lepo priznaj da si se prešao, to zvuči mnogo bolje.
svet.217dejanr,
Ala lepo rade oni "Patriot" sistemi...
svet.218vkostic,
Nocas je ludi Sadam lansirao SCUD rakete na Riad. Koliko sam
saznao sa CNN jos nisu sigurni koliko - bar 6. Jedna je pala u
okolini Riada a ostale su unistene PATRIOT raketama.
svet.219lanik,
>> I koliko neki vlasnici Atarija nemaju pojma sa životom.
Pazi ko mi kaže. Ćovek koji tvrdi da Iranci nisu arapi!
Izvini Super-genije, ali jel' isto tako Jevreji nisu hrišćani?
>> Alal' ti vera. Znači po tebi je Musliman = Arapin.
To si TI rekao. Pa šta je vama ljudi? Are you putting me on?
Stalno pokušavate da mi zakačite nešto što nisam rekao.
Gde si ti video da sam ja napisao da je Musliman=Arapin?
>> No, bolje da se ne upuštaš u dalju diskusiju, jer samo pokazuješ
osnovno nepoznavanje istorije.
Ne, dragi moj. Ja istoriju veoma dobro poznajem, čak iako me
istorija uopšte ne interesuje, ali si izgleda ti pobrkao lončiće.
Ako mi ne veruješ, mogu ti poslati moj primerak knjige "The
Hostory of the World, Edition 3" koja je najkompletnija knjiga svetske
istorije ikada izdata. Pa potraži malo u njoj neke činjenice.
Ako neko čita ovu diskusiju sa strane, mora da ti se slatko
smeje! Pa gledaj šta ti radiš:
Ja: A ako misliš da su oni potomci starih Iranaca (oni iz
Mesopotamije i Vavilona) grdno se varaš. Oni imaju veze sa njima isto
toliko koliko i današnji Egipćani sa starim Egipćanima. I isto koliko i
naši današnji Makedonci sa starim Makedoncima. <<
Ti: No, bolje da se ne upuštaš u dalju diskusiju, jer samo
pokazuješ osnovno nepoznavanje istorije. Pre svega, današnji Iranci su
potomci starih Persijanaca koji.... <<
Na ovu tvoju repliku sam odgovorio i pre nego što si je
napisao. Samo što tebi to ne odgovara, i citirao si samo onaj deo
poruke na koji mi možeš odgovoriti bez argumenata, jer istoriju,
očigledno ne poznaješ. Ja ti kažem da znam na šta misliš, i da to nije
tačno - a ti me ubedjuješ da ne znam istoriju! Hajde, nebudi smešan.
Tipičan si primer čoveka koji vidi samo ono što njemu odgovara.
Kasapiš moje poruke i prepisuješ samo delove istih, da bi one izgubile
smisao.
Pa stvarno mi više ne pada na pamet da gubim vreme pokušavajući
da ti objasnim nešto što ti odbijaš da vidiš. Smučilo mi se više da
moje izjave prekrajate i tumačite kako vama odgovara, pa nisam ja Karl
Marx da mi to radite! ;)
Puno pozdrava, u nadi da ćemo moći da nastavimo ovu diskusiju,
kada naučiš istoriju,
Dalibor
svet.220lanik,
Evo još jednog koji vidi samo ono što želi da vidi:
>> Za tebe su svi muslimmani na svetu Arapi. <<
Ne. Nikako. Ali Iranci su muslimani i Arapi. Ja pričam o
Irancima. Iranci. Let me spell it for you: I R A N C I. Oni su
Muslimani i Arapi.
Jel' ti sad jasno? Ja sam samo pitao da li su možda Iranci
HRIŠĆANI. A nigde nisam rekao da su svi muslimani arapi.
Jel' potrebno još jednom? Jeste? Evo:
Ne. Nikako. Ali Iranci su muslimani i Arapi. Ja pričam o Irancima.
Iranci. Let me spell it for you: I R A N C I. Oni su Muslimani i Arapi.
Jel' ti sad jasno? Ja sam samo pitao da li su možda Iranci
HRIŠĆANI. A nigde nisam rekao da su svi muslimani arapi.
Ok, sada?
I please, nauči se da iz onoga što pročitaš zaključiš samo ono
što je NAPISANO.
Pozdrav,
Dalibor
svet.221lanik,
Pogledaj predhodnu poruku.
>> To sam i očekivao od tebe...
Pa ko je dao predlog... nije ni čudo što si očekivao.
>> Na argumente odgovaraš argumentima iste ili slične kvalitete i
vjerodostojnosti, zar ne ?
Ne. To je stav onih koji nemogu da odgovore, pa pokušavaju sa
tamo nekim bla-bla-bla-big-talk da ispadnu pametni. Ako misliš da si TI
pametan, što u svakoj poruci ubaciš nešto protiv Atarija, grdno se
varaš. Pamet se ne sastoji u tome. Ja to nazivam pakošću. A ti bukvalno
*ne propuštaš* priliku da ubaciš nešto protiv mene i/ili ST-a. Ako si u
pravu, i ako poznaješ istoriju onda nemaš razloga da radiš takve
stvari.
Ali pošto ti nemožeš da se odbraniš drugačije, zbog očigledno
iskazanog nepoznavanja činjenica i istorije, onda ti je jednini način
da na sezamu ispadneš šmeker, da zezaš mene i dobacuješ uvredljive
poruke o atariju. Go on - I can take much more.
A veruj mi - bolje sam informisan od tebe i više sam sveta
video od tebe. Ovo govorim ne iz nekog hvalisanja već čisto zbog toga
što smatram da je za poznavanje nekih stvari potrebno lično otići i
*videti* a ne samo pročitati ili čuti od nekoga.
Pozdrav,
Dalibor
P.S. Sa moje strane nema hard feelings, nije mi jasno što
pokazuješ toliko pakosti? Ako mislimo da nastavimo ovaj razgovor,
trebali bi da "oladimo" malo i da probamo da dopunimo jedan drugoga, da
argumentovano pokažemo onom drugom u čemu greši, te da od ove diskusije
imamo neke koristi i možda nešto i naučimo.
svet.222lanik,
Alexa, nemoj pričati o stvarima u koje nisi siguran.
Pozdrav,
Dalibor
svet.224miha,
IRAN
Stanovništvo.
Od ukupnog broja stanovnika otpada na Persijance 50%, znatan je
broj Azerbejdžanaca, Turkmena, Kurda, Arapa i Jevreja (tim
redom)...
Iranci.
Grupa naroda u Prednjoj i Srednjoj Aziji koji pripadaju
indoevropskoj jezičkoj porodici (tačnije, njenoj iranskoj
grani): Afgani, Beludži, Galcha, Kurdi, Oseti, Tadžici i dr.
....
U novije vrjeme naziv Iranci upotrebljava se za stanovnike
Irana, Persijance.
literatura : Enciklopedija JLZ
Pomorska enciklopedija
pozdrav, miha
svet.225shone,
|Evo jos jednog koji vidi samo ono sto zeli da vidi:
--------
Iz tvoje diskusije je tako proizteklo. Ako nas ubedjujes da su
Iranci Arapi pa posle pitas "a da nisu mozda hriscani?" logican
zakljucak je ono "Arapi=muslimani". I nije samo meni zvucalo
tako nego i drugima ovde.
|Ali Iranci su muslimani i Arapi.
------------------
Pogledaj mihinu poruku :))))
shone
svet.226vcalic,
DUMMY Lanik !!!
WR
svet.227dpozaric,
*********************************
Pogledaj predhodnu poruku.
*********************************
Pogledao sam, nadam se da si i ti pročitao mihinu, u vezi toga tko su
i što Iranci.
*********************************
>> To sam i očekivao od tebe...
Pa ko je dao predlog... nije ni čudo što si očekivao.
*********************************
Dalibore, jesi li siguran da sam ti ja dao prijedlog da po pitanju
Iranaca kopaš po Atari i PC manualima ?????!!!!!
*********************************
>> Na argumente odgovaraš argumentima iste ili slične kvalitete i
vjerodostojnosti, zar ne ?
Ne. To je stav onih koji nemogu da odgovore, pa pokušavaju sa
tamo nekim bla-bla-bla-big-talk da ispadnu pametni. Ako misliš da si TI
pametan, što u svakoj poruci ubaciš nešto protiv Atarija, grdno se
varaš. Pamet se ne sastoji u tome. Ja to nazivam pakošću. A ti bukvalno
*ne propuštaš* priliku da ubaciš nešto protiv mene i/ili ST-a. Ako si u
pravu, i ako poznaješ istoriju onda nemaš razloga da radiš takve
stvari.
********************************
Ja pakostan ? No, dobro, ako su moje poruke tako djelovale ja ti se
javno izvinjavam. No, da ti kažem ovako kad već ne razumiješ
indirektno odnosno iz konteksta poruka kojima tebi repliciram:
Ništa nemam ni protiv tebe niti protiv ikoga sa kim polemiziram i ne
branim se big-talk-bla-bla i ostalim od tebe navedenim načinima. Ne
pravim se stručnjakom ni u čemu jer pretpostavljam da najvjerojatnije
postoji netko tko je za nešto kvalificiraniji od mene nego
jednostavno nastupam sa stanovišta onoga čemu su me učili. Ako ništa
drugo, a ono zbog toga što ne ulijećem poput tebe u besmislene
konstrukcije iz kojih se i ne pokušavaš vaditi kad do grla upadneš,
ne nalazim razlog koji ti daje pravo da mi kažeš da sam pakostan. Ti
jednostavno ulijećeš iz jedne neprovjerene izjave u drugu, ne
obazireš se na činjenicu da se neprestano sudaraš sa masom ljudi i
uporno tvrdiš svoje. Dobro, ja ne kažem da na to nemaš pravo, no hoću
ti reći da te to obavezuje da izneseš argumente, činjenice na kojima
gradiš svoje teorije. Ja sam se jedino obrecnuo na tvoje zagovaranje
rasizma jer je to nešto što mi se bezrezervno gadi, a na to si ti
odgovorio da bivaš optužen za rasizam dok ti to, naravno, nisi, da bi
već u slijedećoj poruci sam sebe demantirao.
Kad spominješ moje *pakosno* spominjanje Atari kompjutera, imaš li na
umu da nitko na ovom boardu nije rekao ni približno toga protiv
Atarija koliko ti protiv PC-a ??? Otkud ti pravo da za nešto
optužuješ nekog drugog, a u stvari si ti kreator zabune i zablude ?
Što se tiče Iranaca, već sam ti rekao da pročitaš mihinu poruku, i
pretpostavljam da si to već učinio. Ja *NEMAM* namjeru kopati po
enciklopedijama da bih ti nešto dokazao, a od takvih stvari držim u
glavi ono što je meni potrebno i što me zanima. Ako naiđem na nešto
novo, ja to potražim u knjigama, ali bez da sam prethodno svojim
pretpostavkama digao prašinu ovdje. Ja uostalom nemam ni pravo ni
obavezu da te u nešto uvjeravam, pa to i ne činim. Sve ono što ti
želim reći (a ovo je zadnji put da to govorim i više to zaista neću
činiti) jest to da te smatram rasistom, da smatram da imaš o pojmu
rasizma iskrivljene ideje i misli, kao i o ljudima uopće.
Ako si gledao film "Scandal" (Skandal u malom gradu), onda si svoje
ideje mogao prepoznati u profesoru Bakeru koji je izbačen sa škole
jer je svoje antisemitske ideje predavao djeci. Iako vidim da imaš
visoko mišljenje o svojem poznavanju povijesti, iz tvojih riječi
naprosto izvire iskrivljena slika svega čega se u tom smislu
dotakneš. Samo, znaj da ima na ovom svijetu i na ovom boardu ljudi
koji su putovali mnogo više i duže od tebe, ljudi koji i bez
putovanja imaju moć da zapaze određene stvari, ljudi koji imaju iza
sbe određeno životno iskustvo koje ne izvire isključivo iz putovanja.
Uostalom, ima ljudi koji su obišli čitav svijet a sve im je to
vrijedilo baš kao da su otišli na izlet do susjedovog ćoška.
*************************
Ali pošto ti nemožeš da se odbraniš drugačije, zbog očigledno
iskazanog nepoznavanja činjenica i istorije, onda ti je jednini način
da na sezamu ispadneš šmeker, da zezaš mene i dobacuješ uvredljive
poruke o atariju. Go on - I can take much more.
*************************
Aha, dakle, meni rebaju argumenti da dokažem da ti nešto ne znaš, a
ti baš *šmekerski* tvrdiš da je to sa mnom slučaj u pogledu
povijesti. No, reci mi, da li ti uopće paziš na to s kim i o čemu
diskutiraš ? Ako to nisi u stanju, imaš onda bilježnicu pa zapiši to
na papir, jer ja sa tobom nisam uopće raspredao o povijesti nego o
tvojoj rasističkoj ideologiji !!! I uopće, poruke su ti nesuvisle
toliko da to upravo graniči sa dobrim ukusom.
*************************
A veruj mi - bolje sam informisan od tebe i više sam sveta
video od tebe. Ovo govorim ne iz nekog hvalisanja već čisto zbog toga
što smatram da je za poznavanje nekih stvari potrebno lično otići i
*videti* a ne samo pročitati ili čuti od nekoga.
*************************
Da mi je znati na osnovu čega ti to samo tvrdiš i znaš pa da ti
i povjerujem...
Ja ni od koga nisam čuo da si ti rasista, niti sam to negdje
pročitao. To jednostavno izvire iz tvojih poruka, ja sam to uočio i
pokušao ti dokazati loše strane toga, i to je sve. Za to ne treba ići
u SSSR ili USA.
A da ja ne poznajem povijest, to nisi mogao zaključiti iz moje
diskusije jer ja o povijesti rijetko i veoma iznimno razgovaram pošto
me ona malo ili nimalo zanima, tek toliko koliko je potrebno da
određene stvari shvatim.
*************************
P.S. Sa moje strane nema hard feelings, nije mi jasno što
pokazuješ toliko pakosti? Ako mislimo da nastavimo ovaj razgovor,
trebali bi da "oladimo" malo i da probamo da dopunimo jedan drugoga, da
argumentovano pokažemo onom drugom u čemu greši, te da od ove diskusije
imamo neke koristi i možda nešto i naučimo.
*************************
Ni sa moje nema hard feelings, a ni pakosti. Ako nađeš i jednu riječ
ovdje sa primjesom iste, molim te da mi to napišeš pa ću ti objasniti
zašto sam što napisao. Ja se uopće nisam zagrijao da bih se trebao
hladiti, životna me iskustva uče da i u najtežim trenucima treba
ostati cool, a to me je, makar možda nećeš vjerovati, već u nekoliko
navrata spasilo gadnih povreda, a ponekad i glave. Kako u
"dijalozima" sa "jakima i zdravima" tako i u prometu i u životu
uopće.
DP
svet.228zddb,
Momci,
već dugo čitam vaše diskusije, ali se suzdržavam od bilo kakvih
komentara. Naime, politika je kao u onom vicu "Ima glavu, ali nema
ramena", te ako jednom uđeš povratka više nema. Ali, sada ste stvarno
pretjerali. Vidi se da se mnogo zalećete. Kao generacija odrasla na
"rok"-u i "coca-coli", a osim toga i zaljubljeni u kompjutere,
gledate u Amerikancima bogove. A stvari su malo drugačije. Ne da neće
zapadnjaci brzo dobiti rat, nego očekujem njihove strahovite gubitke,
naročito kada pokušaju da "osvoje" teritorije pješadijom. E, onda ih
braćo moja, čeka pravi masakr. I to iz dva razloga: 1) Totalno su
nesposobni za rat, što su dokazali više puta zadnjih godina, kada su
masovno ginuli dok još nisu ni ugledali neprijatelja 2) Zadat uopšte
nije lak, kako ga predstavljaju. Po vojnoj doktrini napadača mora
biti tri puta više ako žele da imaju šanse (lakše je braniti se), što
znači da saveznika nema dovoljno ni za onih 500 000 Iračana u
Kuvajtu. A uz to Iračani uopšte nisu za potcjenjivanje. Nemojte
nikada i niučemu padati pod uticaj medija koje Ameri danas drže u
rukama! čivi bili, pa vidjeli! Jedina šansa da se dobije rat je da u
borbu uđu Izraelci, i to u tenkovsku bitku, gdje su najjači. I ima
još nešto. I Amerikanci i Iračani su podjednako i krivci i žrtve.
Treba žaliti kada ljudi ginu, ali i jedni i drugi su bogu skrivili.
Amerikanci sada mogu da razmisle čija oni to prava štite na Kosovu, a
Englezi kako je bilo u Beogradu na Uskrs 1944. I još: Ne vidim da su
bijelci i sami mnogo srećni što su sišli s drveta. Nisu morali
"pomagati" crncima. Ja sam imao prilike da utvrdim da crnci brzo i
briljantno uče jezike. Osim toga, na građevinskom fakultetu u Moskvi,
par crnaca iz nekakve Ugande, briljantno je položilo ispite iz
Nacrtne geometrije, mnogo ubjedljivije od nekakvih Arijevaca, tamo
neke 1978. Tome sam bio svedok, te tvrdim da su očigledno momci imali
vrlo razvijenu imaginaciju, prostornu predstavu, ama ko zna šta je
Nacrtna geometrija, zna kako to izgleda! Što se tiče Arapa, i moj
otac je imao na fakultetu puno studenata Arapa, i slično ih je
opisao. Samo, mene te njihove osobine mnogo podsećaju na srpske! I
još nešto, tvrditi da su oni glupi zato što teško uče jezike, isto je
kao i tvrditi da su Srbi glupi zato što teško uče arapski. Arapski i
srodni orijentalni jezici, za nas su Evropljane vrlo teški, jer se
zasnivaju na sasvim drugim pravilima. Uostalom, lako je nam Srbima
naučiti sve jezike, kada su svi poznatiji evropski jezici samo jedna
mnogo brate iskvarena varijanta starosrpskog (Ancient Serbian, Alte
Serbisch)! ...
svet.229dejanr,
>> Nemojte nikada i niučemu padati pod uticaj medija koje Ameri danas
>> drže u rukama!
Interesantno koliko ljudi "iz drugog tabora" to kaže. Međutim, UOPŠTE
nije tako. Tj. možda ih drže, ali to toliko ne zloupotrebljavaju. Naime,
čim je Husein dao BILO KAKVU izjavu, sve američke mreže je prenesu.
žim Irak izda saopštenje, opiše lažno gubitke itd, USA preneso sve te
informacije.
A da li možda Irak (ili bilo ko iz drugog tabora) tako radi? Malo
sutra.
>> Ne da neće zapadnjaci brzo dobiti rat, nego očekujem njihove
>> strahovite gubitke, naročito kada pokušaju da "osvoje" teritorije
>> pješadijom. E, onda ih braćo moja, čeka pravi masakr.
Ja mislim da će Iračani dobiti lekciju koju će dugo da pamte! Kao
Argentinci kad su zauzeli Folklandska ostrva.
>> čivi bili, pa vidjeli!
Upravo tako.
svet.230vkostic,
>> Zadat uopšte nije lak, kako ga predstavljaju. Po vojnoj doktrini
>> napadača mora biti tri puta više ako žele da imaju šanse (lakše
>> je braniti se), što znači da saveznika nema dovoljno ni za onih
>> 500 000 Iračana u Kuvajtu.
Da, tacno je da treba tri puta vise vojske za napad nego za odbranu,
ali samo kada su protivnici RAVNOPRAVNI. A ovde nisu.
Mozda Ameri i nisu neka vojska (mislim samo na pesadiju), ali su zato
arapi jos manje vojska. Seti se samo Izraelsko-Arapskih ratova.
A kada avioni zavrse svoje, kada atiljerija zavrsi svoje, kada krenu
tenkovi, kada presecene komunikacije i putevi snabdevanja urade svoje,
mislim da ce i 100.000 Amera biti vise nego dovoljno da srede ludog
Sadama i njegovu nazovi vojsku. Nisu Ameri isto sto i Iranski klinci od
12 godina sto su bosi trcali preko minskih polja.
>> Jedina šansa da se dobije rat je da u borbu uđu Izraelci, i to u
>> tenkovsku bitku, gdje su najjači.
Angazovanje Izraelskih tenkova (i pesadije) van granica Izraela mislim
da ne dolazi u obzir. Avioni da, ali ne vidim sta bi Izraelski avioni
mogli da urade a da to Ameri vec nisu uradili - osim da naprave pecurke
nad Irakom.
Uostalom, ne vidim zasto bi Izraelci ulazili u rat kada Ameri mogu sami
bez problema da srede pobesnelog Sadama.
svet.231vkrstonosic,
Juče se digla velika prašina oko zarobljenih američkih pilota, kada si
Iračani izjavili da će ih koristiti kao žive štitove. Amerikanci su
zahtevali da se prema njima ponašaju prema ženevskoj konvenciji. Na to im
je Irački ambasador u Parizu odgovorio da će se prema njima
ponašati ka prema zarobljenicima kad Ameri priznaju da su oni stvarno
zarobljeni, odnosno da su im avioni oboreni.
Ne svidja mi se baš situacija, izgleda da Ameri neće proći baš tako lako,
sve ovo će poprilično potrajata i biće dosta žrtava na američkoj strani.
Posle izveštaja da je prvog dana oboreno 2 a drugog 5 Multinacionalnih
aviona, jedan englski ministar je pitao šta su avioni uopšte bombardovali
kad je drugog dana odbrana jača nego prvog.
svet.232zockey,
>> Nemojte nikada i niučemu padati pod uticaj medija koje Ameri danas
>> drže u rukama!
>Interesantno koliko ljudi "iz drugog tabora" to kaže. Međutim, UOPŠTE
>nije tako. Tj. možda ih drže, ali to toliko ne zloupotrebljavaju. Naime,
>čim je Husein dao BILO KAKVU izjavu, sve američke mreže je prenesu.
>žim Irak izda saopštenje, opiše lažno gubitke itd, USA preneso sve te
>informacije.
Možda ja ne primam toliko informacija, ali mi nije jasno otkud ti znaš
da UOPŠTE nije tako i da ih TOLIKO ne zloupotrebljavaju i da je prenesena
IZVORNO, SVAKA Huseinova izjava.
Shvatite ljudi da rat nije samo u vazduhu ili na zemlji i moru već upore-
do sa njim traju i propagandne operacije na OBE strane.
I zašto misliš da je svako saopštenje Iraka lažno samo zato što se ne po-
klapa sa saopštenjem CNN-a.
P.S. Ne bi želeo da neko shvati ovu poruku kao moje opredeljenje za neku
stranu samo zato što u ovom slučaju *branim* Irak. Ispalo je da ga branim
zato što mislim da dejanr ne uzima informacije baš objektivno i nadam se
da to neće izgledati kao uvreda.
Zockey JNA
svet.233dejanr,
>> Shvatite ljudi da rat nije samo u vazduhu ili na zemlji i moru već
>> uporedo sa njim traju i propagandne operacije na OBE strane.
>> I zašto misliš da je svako saopštenje Iraka lažno samo zato što se
>> ne poklapa sa saopštenjem CNN-a.
U uslovima kada postoje protivrečna saopštenja Iraka i USA, sklon sam
da mnogo više verujem u Američko. Ne kažem da u njega verujem bezrezervno
i do kraja, ali kažem da verujem mnogo više nego u Iračko. Iz više razloga.
Pre svega, u svim totalitarnim režimima (kakav je bez sumnje onaj u Iraku)
se, a naročito u uslovima kada je ceo svet protiv njih (što je u ovom
slučaju evidentno) istini poklanja vrlo mala pažnja. Drugo, Iračani govore
neke stvari koje su očite besmislice (npr. pobeda je blizu, već smo pobedili
itd) dok Američki stručnjaci i nezavisni komentatori razložno opisuju mogući
tok rata, govore o problemima itd. Naravno da su naklonjeni svojima ali to
je i prirodno. Uz to, na konferencijama za štampu čujem prilično "neprijatna"
pitanja novinara zvaničnim vojnim licima, a u Iraku im samo pljeskaju i
slave ih. Najzad, u USA je štampa oborila jednog predsednika, mnogima
zagorčala život i čak izuzetno popularnom Reganu "iščačkala" Kontragejt
aferu koja ga je zamalo "sahranila". A Iračka štampa već godinama samo
slavi Huseina koji pravi sve moguće vrste gluposti i koji je totalno
upropastio svoju zemlju, a sada će je i dokončati.
Ja sam svojim ušima čuo da CNN prenosi Huseinove izjave i to onog trenutka
kada ih dobije. Naravno, ispred toga "ide" simultani prevod tako da ne
mogu da budem siguran da je to prevedeno od reči do reči ali sklon sam da
verujem da je tako jer bi se Iračani itekako bunili da nije. Osim toga,
Irački ambasador u UN je više puta govorio na Američkoj televiziji (čuo
sam svojim ušima) i to na (lošem) engleskom, govorio šta je hteo (uglavnom
lupetao gluposti). Sa druge strane, da li je Irak svojim građanima
preneo *išta* što je rekao Bush, Bejker, Pauel, Mejdžor itd? Nije. I, ko
tu omogućava a ko sprečava protok informacija?
Naravno da ovu diskusiju ne uzimam kao uvredu (zašto bih?) - godinama
je "istočna polovina" sveta sipala svojim ljudima u glave razne gluposti
o "imperijalizmu" u kome je demokratija "prividna" itd i o "pravoj" slobodi,
objektivnosti, jednakosti itd. Pri tome je "imperijalizam" optuživan upravo
za ono što je druga strana masovno činila tj. za sprečavanje slobodnog toka
informacija (U SSSR, na primer, do skora (a možda i danas) nisi smeo da
uneseš Orvelovu 1984, a ako se neko uhvati da je ima, ide u Sibir; u USA
ti niko ne brani da imaš i Kapital, i Majn Kamf i šta god 'oćeš). Na sreću,
takav sistem se raspao ili se raspada bilo pod pritiskom ekonomske sile
bilo (u slučaju Iraka) pod bombarderima. Nadam se da će u budućnosti 2+2
biti 4 (što rek'o Orvel) u čemu vrlo značajnu ulogu igraju baš mreže tipa
CNN-a koje, iako su Američke po sedištu i u izvesnoj meri opterećene
"američkim načinom života", ipak u suštini internacionalno dobro i
objektivni izveštač.
svet.234ivujanic,
Ne znam da li znate, ali da vam saopštim:
u ratu u zalivu uveliko se isprobava čvstina YU betona. Pogodite ko je
gradio tolike bunkere u kojima Sadam uspešno krije sve svoje tenkove, avione
pa i sebe samog. Spominje se izvesna Beogradska firma...
Usput, čuo sam da mu je bunker na dubini od oko 80 m! Takođe naših ruku
delo!
Da li se još uvek čudite zašto nismo svrstani u
grupu zemalja oštećenih ratom u zalivu??
Ivica b)
svet.237agobovic,
Heyyy, nice to hear you here! I to na 2400 bps MNP5, pa jos
Everex! Ali, da se vratim na temu:
Vidim da ima vas ovde koji nesto znaju o tim tunelima i
skrovistima, pa mislim da bi bilo lepo da i nama nesto vise kazete o
tome. Mene inace zanimaju ti podzemni aerodromi i prateca oprema. Ko
je i kada i kako pravio to, i kako to izgleda?
AG
svet.238dejanr,
>> > Sa druge strane, da li je Irak svojim građanima preneo *išta* što
>> > je rekao Bush, Bejker, Pauel, Mejdžor itd? Nije.
>>
>> Otkud znaš da nije?
Znam recimo odatle što naši ljudi koji dolaze odatle i iz okoline kažu da
se u Iraku 24 sata dnevno (- ono vreme što radio ne radi ;) trešte
revolucionarne pesme i da se slavi Sadam a proklinje Veliki Satana.
Američke vesti? Ha, Ha! Sad, možeš da ne veruješ tim ljudima ali ja
bar jednog znam lično i potupuno mu verujem po tom pitanju.
>> Dalje, ja ne znam kakva je to demokratija u kojoj se Crnci, Hispanosi
>> i drugi "coloured" ljudi zatvaraju u geta...(i naravno zlostavljaju
>> itd.)
Nemoj da me rasplačeš! Siroti oni, kako im je teško i kako bi im bilo
lepše da su u Africi...
Izvini, a gde to ima demokratije VIŠE nego u zapadnim sistemima? Možda
kod Rusa? Ili u Iraku?
svet.239dejanr,
>> Da,to je tačno...Moj prijatelj koji je radio na svemu tome u toj
>> "Beogradskoj" firmi kaze da su podzemni tuneli građeni tako da
>> imaju četiri reda betona, čelika i zemlje...Tako su praktično
>> neuništivi...
Da, neka pitaju žaušeskua koliko su mu tuneli bili od koristi...
svet.240lanik,
Ljudi jel' ste videli kako je onaj Sadam zeznuo Amere? prebacio
sve avione u Iran!
Pa i nije čudo što ih Ameri bombarduju, bombarduju, a ništa im
od avijacije ne uništiše!
Samo mi nije jasno, da li su Ameri TOLIKO glupi, da nisu znali
da su ovi fanatici prebacili avione u Iran ili igraju neku igru?
Pa čemu im služe svi ti špijunski sateliti, FBI, CIA, NSA?
svet.241lanik,
Miha, apsolutno se slažem sa tobom. To što si napisao je sve
tačno. Ali (uh, podsećam sebe na pokvarenu gramofonsku ploču), i
Italijani vode poreklo od starih Rimljana, pa za njih ne možeš reći da
su rimljani. Isto važi i za Grke, Egipćane, pa i za Amerikance. Oni su
poreklom (uglavnom) Anglosaksonci, pa svejedno nemožeš reći da su
Englezi. Istom tom logikom smatram i da su Iranci Arapi:
1. - Iranska imena (tipična Arapska)
2. - Iranske fizionomije (pogledaj te tupe face, tipične
Arapske)
3. - Iranska vera (Islam - kao i kod svih Arapa)
4. - Iran je član Arapske lige i OPECa (zašto, ako Iranci nisu
Arapi?)
5. - Iran je protiv Izraela (kao i svi Arapi)
svet.242lanik,
>> DUMMY Lanik !!! <<
Svojim porukama najbolje pokazuješ ko je DUMMY.
svet.243lanik,
>> Dalibore, jesi li siguran da sam ti ja dao prijedlog da po pitanju
Iranaca kopaš po Atari i PC manualima ?????!!!!! <<<
A jel' ti *stvarno* misliš da sam ja "kopao" po Atari i PC
manualima? ;))))))))
>> Ja pakostan ? No, dobro, ako su moje poruke tako djelovale ja ti
se javno izvinjavam. <<
Nema potrebe za izvinjavanje, tom logikom bi i ja trebao tebi i
nekim drugima da se izvinim; dovoljno je da ti sve buduće poruke budu
kao ova na koju repliciram - a ja ću se truditi da i moje budu takve.
>> Ja sam se jedino obrecnuo na tvoje zagovaranje rasizma jer je to
nešto što mi se bezrezervno gadi, a na to si ti odgovorio da bivaš
optužen za rasizam dok ti to, naravno, nisi, da bi već u slijedećoj
poruci sam sebe demantirao. <<
Dražene, da jednom za svagda "rešimo" moje 'rasističke'
stavove.
Nevolja je u tome što najveći broj ljudi kada kažeš "rasista",
podrazumeva da su rasisti oni koji malteretiraju i zalažu se za
istrebljenje drugih rasa koje smatraju nižim.
Ja uopšte nemam ovakve ambicije (ni preča posla), nikom ne
želim zlo, nikoga ne teram u konc-logore. Moje je mišljenje (složićeš se
da na to imam pravo) da su crnci (i uopšte, obojene i žute rase)
intelektualno "slabiji" od belaca.
Ako hoćeš da ti moje mišljenje i "obrazložim", samo kaži,
napisaću u sledećem reply-ju. Samo molim bez uvredljivih komentara u stilu
"Rasisto! Hitleru! Manijače!" i slično. To je samo moje mišljenje i ja
smatram da imam pravo na njega.
>> Kad spominješ moje *pakosno* spominjanje Atari kompjutera, imaš li
na umu da nitko na ovom boardu nije rekao ni približno toga protiv
Atarija koliko ti protiv PC-a ??? <<
Da li je baš tako? Ja samo kažem da Atari može da se "nosi" sa
386 računarima, a vi nasrnete na mene uvredama i optužbama. Kada kažem
da može da se "nosi", ne mislim da je Atari brža mašina, već da je u
npr. Desktop Pubishing-u upotrebljiviji od PC-ja, ili barem isto toliko
upotrebljiv. Ali da ne pričamo ovde o tome - "svet" nije tema za to.
>> jer ja o povijesti rijetko i veoma iznimno razgovaram pošto me ona
malo ili nimalo zanima, tek toliko koliko je potrebno da određene
stvari shvatim. <<
I isto važi za mene.
E, sada da probam da ti objasnim još jednu stvar. U vezi mojih
"besmislenih konstrukcija". Ovo se sada ne odnosi samo na tebe, već i
na sve "diskutante" u ovoj temi.
Kada sam ja tvrdio da su Crnogorci Srbi, svi ste se smejali.
Sada uzmi zadnji broj "Duge" ili nekog sličnog časopisa i pročitaj o
Crnogorcima.
Kada sam ja tvrdio da Bosanci ne postoje kao narod i da su oni
proizvod komunističkih pokušaja da oslabe Srbiju, vi ste se smejali. A
Muslimani (tj. Bosanci) nisu *narod* niti će to ikada biti. Oni su ili
Srbi ili Hrvati. Neki Pravoslavci, neki Katolici a neki Muslimani. Ali
nikako nisu narod. Ali vreme će i po ovome pokazati svoje.
Kada sam ja tvrdio da Makedonci nisu narod, svi ste se smejali.
Evo, sada taj isti narod tvrdi da su Egipćani i ko zna šta još. Srbe,
koji su ih oslobodili nazivaju najvećim neprijateljima, itd. Napominjem
da će prava istina vremenom da izadje na videlo, a ja tvrdim da su
Makedonci (barem ovi u Jugi) Srbi koji su bili suviše blizu Bugara.
Makedonija je uvek bila Srpski "satelit". Zato ih ni u Bugarskoj ni u
Grčkoj NIKO ne priznaje za narod. Jedino smo mi Jugovići budale.
Kada sam tvrdio da su Slovenci iskompleksirani jer nemaju dva
dana samostalne istorije, vi ste rekli da sam nacionalista. Evo, sada
ti isti Slovenci hoće da se odcepe od Jugoslavije, jedine zemlje u
kojoj ih je neko ikada priznavao za ravnopravan *narod*.
Iz ovoga možete pogrešno shvatiti da imam puno protiv svih
naroda, ali uveravam vas da to nije tačno. Kada kažem "Hrvati",
"Slovenci" ili "Iračani" su takvi i takvi, mislim na neke stvari koje
karakterišu većinu ljudi tog naroda. No offense meant.
I sada kada zagovaram belačku superiornost nad drugim rasama,
vi se čudite. Only time will tell. We shall see who is right and who
is wrong.
Pozdrav svima,
Dalibor
svet.244lanik,
>> Samo, mene te njihove osobine mnogo podsećaju na srpske! <<
Ne bih mogao da se složim sa tobom. Srbi su lenji, vole da
"hvataju krivine" i da "zeznu" sistem. Arapi su prirodno glupi i lako
ih je izmanipulisati - šta će vam bolji primer od Sadama Huseina i
njegovih sledbenika.
svet.245vcalic,
>> 1. - Iranska imena (tipična Arapska)
To što ti zoveš tipična arapska imena, to su ustvari tipična imena za
pripadnike muslimanske vere.
>> 2. - Iranske fizionomije (pogledaj te tupe face, tipične
>>Arapske)
Ovo ti je argumenat DJ.
>> 3. - Iranska vera (Islam - kao i kod svih Arapa)
I kao kod ne tako malog broja Južnih Slovena...
>> 4. - Iran je član Arapske lige i OPECa (zašto, ako Iranci nisu
>>Arapi?)
Nešto mi nije poznato da je Iran član Arapske lige...
OPEC je međunarodno udruženje proizvođača nafte, a u njemu su i
Venecuela a čini mi se i SSSR. A Venecuealnci i Rusi su tipični Arapi...
>> 5. - Iran je protiv Izraela (kao i svi Arapi)
I kao do skoro sve istočne zemlje. Rusi, žesi, Poljaci, Srbi, Hrvati,
Mađari, sve sami Arapi....
Pohvalno je što se trudiš da nađeš argumente, ali sledeći put se
potrudi da tvoji argumenti imaju i neku snagu.
Magic WR
svet.246vcalic,
Eh, zar je predlog našeg dragog moderatora (onog starijeg a nižeg ;),
tako brzo zaboravljen...
Inače Lanik, tvoja poruka 2.241 me toliko oduševila da sam ipak morao
da ukinem dummy status za tebe.
Magic WR
svet.247vcalic,
>>Arapi su prirodno glupi i lako ih je izmanipulisati - šta će vam bolji primer
>>od Sadama Huseina i njegovih sledbenika.
Srbi su prirodno glupi i lako ih je izmanipulisati - šta će vam bolji
primer od Slobodana Miloševića i njegovih sledbenika.
A verovatno je tačno i sledeće:
Hrvati su prirodno glupi i lako ih je izmanipulisati - šta će vam
bolji primer od Franje Tuđmana i njegovih sledbenika.
Magic WR
P.S. Po Lanikovoj teoremi ovo bi značilo da su Srbi i Hrvati u stvari Arapi
svet.250miha,
>>Što se tiče CIA i NSA, sve je to glupost...To su službe koje troše novac na
>>nekakva istraživanja, postavljanja satelita i slične gluposti...
---------------
Postaje mi jasnije zašto misliš da je KGB superiornija od sličnih 'agencija'
u USA....po toj logici UDBA je bila špijunska agencija No . u svjetu (a i šire
;) jer se služila još primitivnijim oruđima od KGB-a ;)
Postoje dvije kategorije : masa i klasa, KGB ne spada u drugu
miha
svet.252nesic,
Zemlje članice Arab League su: Algeria, Bahrain,
Djibouti, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya,
Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia,
Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates, North Yemen
and South Yemen.
Zemlje članice OPEC-a (Organization of Petroleum
Exporting Countries) su: Algeria, Bahrain, Ecuador,
Gabon, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Libya, Nigeria,
Qatar, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates and Venezuela.
Iz gore navedenog se može videti da Iran jeste član
OPEC-a ali nije član Arab League.
Možda si umesto Arab League mislio na Islamic
Conference čije su članice sledeće zemlje: Algeria,
Bahrain, Bangladesh, Brunei, Burkina Faso, Cameroon,
Chad, Comoros, Djibouti, Egypt, Gabon, Gambia, Guinea,
Guinea Bissau, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait,
Lebanon, Libya, Malaysia, Maldivies, Mali, Mauritania,
Morocco, Niger, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia,
Senegal, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, Turkey, Uganda,
United Arab Emirates, North Yemen and South Yemen.
Sada, kad znaš ko je gde i ko je ko raspali!
Pozdrav, Nešić
svet.254miha,
>>CIA uopšte nije dorasla ni KGB-u niti MOSAD-u...
Ma ne kažem ja ništa za MOSAD i ne bih se mnogo upuštao u analizu
obavještajnih službi (iako sam podosta učio o njima) ali, čista je logika :
Varšavski Ugovor se raspao, Nato je još uvjek jednako jak. U SSSR-u i ostalim
zemljama istočnog bloka se događaju čudne stvari, u NATO sve po starom (SPS ;)
Interesuje me sada: ako je KGB toliko jak, kako da rusi nisu svjetdka sila broj
1 u svim oblastima... I CIA i KGB imaju odsjeke za industrisjku špijunažu (mada
postoje i specijalizovane institucije koje se time bave), a žutima ne mogu ni
da prismrde na tom području...
Malo je stvari, u savremenoj špijunaži, ostalo bazirano na ljudskom faktoru,
kao sredstvu. Danas se ratovi (hladni i ovi drugi) vode tehnikom, džaba 'srce
u junaka' ako 'nema pušku' (ili štošta drugo). A KGB se ne može baš podičiti
nekom tehnikom (e, sad, ono jeste, Rusi su imali bolju tehničku opremu za
špijunažu 60. i 70.-tih godina (za ranije ne znam) ali danas...)
I još nešto, KGB će biti sve slabija i slabija...
pozdrav, miha
svet.255vkostic,
>> Dalje, ja ne znam kakva je to demokratija u kojoj se Crnci, Hispanosi
>> i drugi "coloured" ljudi zatvaraju u geta...(i naravno zlostavljaju itd.)
>>
>> Samo mi nemoj reći da Crnci i Hispanosi imaju ista prava kao i Belci
>> u Americi, jer ću stvarno pomisliti da si "podlegao" američkoj propagandi!
Jadni oni, mnogo im lose u Americi. Predsednik firme Coca Cola je izbeglica
is Kube, dakle Hispanos. Crnci su imali i predsednickog kandidata, gradona-
celnik Washington-a je do skoro bio crnac, sada je crnkinja. jadni oni.
Sutni nekog crnca u Americi sa posla zato sto je crnac pa ces gadno nastradati
na sudu. Jadni crnci. Stvarno nemaju nikakva prava.
Ne kazem da svi crnci dobro zive u Americi. Taman posla, ima i geta i siro-
mastva i svega. Ali jedini razlog za to je taj sto su lenji, a ne zato sto
nemaju sansi za uspeh u Americi.
svet.256vkostic,
>> Ljudi jel' ste videli kako je onaj Sadam zeznuo Amere? prebacio
>> sve avione u Iran! Pa i nije čudo što ih Ameri bombarduju, bombarduju,
>> a ništa im od avijacije ne uništiše!
Jeli Lanik, odakle ti sada ovaj biser ????!!!
Iracani i Iranci se mrze ko pas i macka. Ne mislis valjda da bi Sadam stvarno
tamo prebacio svoje avione? Jeste lud, ali ne bas toliko. Iran i tako nema
avijaciju pa bi jedva docekao Sadamove avione.
>> Samo mi nije jasno, da li su Ameri TOLIKO glupi, da nisu znali
>> da su ovi fanatici prebacili avione u Iran ili igraju neku igru?
Jeste, Ameri glupi a ti prepametan!
svet.260kvelkovski,
Svaka ti cast kako uspevas da nas sve uvuces u diskusiju. I to
sve 'argumentovanijim' istupima ;)
> Kada sam ja tvrdio da Makedonci nisu narod, svi ste se smejali.
Tada najverovatnije nisam bio clan Sezam-a, pa nisam mogao da
odgovorim na ovu 'tvrdnju'.
>Evo, sada taj isti narod tvrdi da su Egipcani i ko zna sta jos.
To tvrde Romi iz okoline Struge da bi se 'distancirali' od
drugih Roma (tzv Cigana).
>Srbe,koji su ih oslobodili nazivaju najvecim neprijateljima, itd.
Da su vas tako 'oslobadjali' jedno 30-tak godina (mislim na
1912-1941), ne biste hteli ni da cujete za vase 'osloboditelje'.
>Napominjem da ce prava istina vremenom da izadje na videlo, a ja
>tvrdim da su Makedonci (barem ovi u Jugi) Srbi koji su bili suvise
>blizu Bugara.
Ja mislim da je prava istina vec na videlu, a sto se tice vece
bliskosti Makedonaca sa Srbima nego sa Bugarima, to se da lako
opovrgnuti: dovoljno je samo uporediti makedonski jezik sa bugarskim,
odnosno srpskim.
>Makedonija je uvek bila Srpski "satelit". Zato ih ni u Bugarskoj ni u
>Grckoj NIKO ne priznaje za narod. Jedino smo mi Jugovici budale.
Da parafraziram: Makedonija je uvek SILOM bila Srpski
"satelit". Sto se tice Bugarske, Makedonci postoje tek toliko
nezavisno kao sto su Dalmatinci u odnos na Hrvate. A u Grckoj je
najveci problem vracanje vlasnistva makedonskim izbeglicama iz vremena
gradjanskog rata.
Preporucio bih ti da letos odes do Pirinske, Belomorske i
Vardarske Makedonije da bi malo prosirio vidike.
Pozdrav,
Kire
P.S. Ako meni ne verujes procitaj zapise Vase Pelagica o srpskim
oslobodilackim ratovima (*Poruku Kralju Aleksandru*) i studije Cvijica
o 'srpskom' karakteru narodne mase na podrucju od severa Makedonije
preko Prokuplja i Nisa do (danasnje) bugarske granice.
svet.261bojt,
>> Ne da neće zapadnjaci brzo dobiti rat, nego očekujem njihove
>> strahovite gubitke, naročito kada pokušaju da "osvoje" teritorije
>> pješadijom. E, onda ih braćo moja, čeka pravi masakr.
"Tačno je da Irak ima prednost u tenkovima i živoj sili, medjutim,
premoć u avijaciji antiiračke koalicije tu prednost potpuno
anulira!" (General-lajtant Viktor Gorbačov, šef katedre na
Akademiji Generlaštaba SSSR "Varašilov", povodom procena da će se
ishod rata ipak odlučiti na zemlji).
"Kada dodje do te bitke, ako do nje uopšte dodje, mi nećemo voditi
njihov rat. U tom obračunu, kada se garda izvuče iz svojih rovova i
utvrdjenja i krene na naše oklopne jedinice i pešadiju, glavnu i
verovatno jedinu ulogu će odigrati saveznička avijacija..."
(General Švarckopf).
svet.262bojt,
>> u ratu u zalivu uveliko se isprobava čvstina YU betona.
Istinu zboriš, ja to vrlo dobro znam... ;(
>> Da li se još uvek čudite zašto nismo svrstani u
>> grupu zemalja oštećenih ratom u zalivu??
Ima nekih indicija da će da kapne nešto "ispod žita" jer je izgleda
palo došaptavanje gde sve ima betona i koliko je čvrst...
svet.263bojt,
>> Mene inace zanimaju ti podzemni aerodromi i prateca oprema. Ko
>> je i kada i kako pravio to, i kako to izgleda?
Bolje bi mi bilo da ćutim al' javnost ima pravo da zna:
Aeroiženjering i Gradjevinski Fakultet!
P.S. Ako ostanem bez glave donesite mi cveće...
svet.264bojt,
>> Izvini, a gde to ima demokratije VIŠE nego u zapadnim
>> sistemima? Možda kod Rusa? Ili u Iraku?
Eto ono malo Kurda u Iraku godinama plaču od sreće što žive baš
tamo...
svet.265bojt,
>> Da, neka pitaju žaušeskua koliko su mu tuneli bili od koristi...
DR, about that question you are deeply wrong... Ti podzemni hangari
(kaponiri) su gradjeni tako da izdržavaju *sve* sem direktnog udara
nuklearne bombe. Samo ću reći da su primenjivani više nego 3 puta
strožiji standardi od onih koje je propisao NATO za objekte iste
ili slične namene.
svet.266dejanr,
>> > Jadni oni, mnogo im lose u Americi. Crnci su imali i predsednickog
>> > kandidata...
>>
>> I, da li je taj kandidat izabran za predsednika?
Nije... ali imao je šansu da bude. A što nije, to je volja naroda koji
je glasao.
>> Ako si nekad ulazio u Americi (recimo New York) u neki Crnački geto,
>> mogao si da vidis tablu koja (u slobodnom prevodu kaže): - Odavde
>> nastavljate na sopstvenu odgovornost...
Nema to veze sa Crncima, to piše zato što u dotičnom područiju ima mnogo
kriminalaca, besposličara i razne druge sirotinje koja je spremna na
svašta. Ima tu dosta Crnaca ali ima i drugih rasa, zajedničko im je što
neće da se bave poštenim poslom i zato žive u bedi. Ne mogu da kažem da
mi ih je zbog toga žao.
svet.267dejanr,
>> > Da, neka pitaju žaušeskua koliko su mu tuneli bili od koristi...
>>
>> DR, about that question you are deeply wrong... Ti podzemni hangari
>> (kaponiri) su gradjeni tako da izdržavaju *sve* sem direktnog udara
>> nuklearne bombe.
Samo sam hteo da kažem da je i žaušesku imao bunkere, ali je stradao
ne od nuklearne bombe nego od onih koji su zajedno sa njim trebali da
koriste te iste bunkere... i koji su "promenili mišljenje" kada je
vetar počeo da duva sa druge strane.
svet.268shone,
>
> Kada sam ja tvrdio da su Crnogorci Srbi, svi ste se smejali.
>Sada uzmi zadnji broj "Duge" ili nekog slicnog casopisa i procitaj o
>Crnogorcima.
Prosto neverovatno!
> Kada sam ja tvrdio da Bosanci ne postoje kao narod i da su oni
>proizvod komunistickih pokusaja da oslabe Srbiju, vi ste se smejali. A
>Muslimani (tj. Bosanci) nisu *narod* niti ce to ikada biti. Oni su ili
>Srbi ili Hrvati. Neki Pravoslavci, neki Katolici a neki Muslimani. Ali
>nikako nisu narod. Ali vreme ce i po ovome pokazati svoje.
Prvo me covek ubedjuje da sam Arapin. Posle me ubedjuje da sam
izmisljen i da ne postoji a na kraju mi kaze da sam Srbin. Kako
li cu zavrsiti to ne zna ni Allah ni Sveti Sava ni Buda. Al'
eto sacekacu da me Lanik "probudi" i "izvede" iz mraka i neznanja.
Postajes smesan kao albanski istoricari. Oni tvrde da su svi
poreklom Albanci.
> Kada sam ja tvrdio da Makedonci nisu narod, svi ste se smejali.
>Evo, sada taj isti narod tvrdi da su Egipcani i ko zna sta jos. Srbe,
>koji su ih oslobodili nazivaju najvecim neprijateljima, itd. Napominjem
>da ce prava istina vremenom da izadje na videlo, a ja tvrdim da su
>Makedonci (barem ovi u Jugi) Srbi koji su bili suvise blizu Bugara.
>Makedonija je uvek bila Srpski "satelit". Zato ih ni u Bugarskoj ni u
>Grckoj NIKO ne priznaje za narod. Jedino smo mi Jugovici budale.
Pazi sad. Jedan narod koji je doduse iste vere kao i srpski, al
drugacijeg jezika, kulture ... proglasava za Egipcane i na kraju
naravno za Srbe.
> Kada samtvrdio da su Slovenci iskompleksirani jer nemaju dva
>dana samostalne istorije, vi ste rekli da sam nacionalista. Evo, sada
>ti isti Slovenci hoce da se odcepe od Jugoslavije, jedine zemlje u
>kojoj ih je neko ikada priznavao za ravnopravan *narod*.
Ako Slovenci zele sasmostalnu drzavu ja im ne mogu to zabraniti.
Ali Lanik je bio tu da nas upozorava za sve. Sreca nasa da znamo
koliko je sve ovo sto on prica suvislo. Medjutim bas je zanimljiv.
Tvrdi da je pametniji od enciklopedije i bolje zna strategiju od
americkih vojnih eksperta. A mozda i zna? ;>
> Iz ovoga mozete pogresno shvatiti da imam puno protiv svih
>naroda, ali uveravam vas da to nije tacno. Kada kazem "Hrvati",
>"Slovenci" ili "Iracani" su takvi i takvi, mislim na neke stvari koje
>karakterisu vecinu ljudi tog naroda. No offense meant.
Ti imas nesto protiv svih osim sebe samog. Ne verujem da sam te
shvatio pogresno, a ako jesam onda mi objasni (po moguctsvu sa
argumentima gde gresim.
shone
svet.269djovicevic,
================================================================
Ň the following letter is forwarded from:
Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 4, No. 0918. Tuesday, 22 Jan 1991.■
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 91 12:38 +0200
Ňfrom■ RWERMAN@HUJIVMS
Subject: More News from Israel
22 January
Another quiet night; all of the SCUDs were directed - for the
second night - to Saudia Arabia and Bahrein.
The name of the game is sleep. So many people just can not sleep
properly. Fortunately for me, I am one of the lucky ones. A
major problem for the sleepless is what to do with the radio. If
you leave it on, it disturbs sleep. If you turn it off, you are
afraid to sleep. Why shouldn't some of us be neurotic? Wasn't
the condition first described by a Jewish doctor in Vienna?
Examining Jewish patients? And the other side of the coin is
that - if it is not a Jewish disease, i.e., a diaspora disease -
why shouldn't we have it? After all, we are now, in Israel, our
new/old homeland, just like all other nations.
The noise of airplanes drones above us. This is quite unusual as
the Jerusalem skies are off limits to air traffic. We can not
see the planes, they are very high and the sky is very cloudy,
with intermittant light rains. The sound - to my unprofessional
ear, at least - is that of motors, not jets. I know that jets
are constantly in the air, for weeks now, to avoid being caught
on the ground, to be ready to repulse any air attack from Iraq.
ŇWe bombed them - a nuclear plant built by the French - 6 years
ago; they can certainly return the favor.■ But it still sounds
like propeller engines. Perhaps these are the mother ships which
will be needed to refuel the jets on their 1000 kilometer trip to
Iraq.
Retaliation, national pride, perhaps strange concepts to most
readers. Some have commented on this to me after yester- day's
posting. You have to understand how we see - the nature of
intergovernmental Ňand personal, too■ relations in that strange
part of the world, the Middle East - retaliation as deterrence.
If we do not retaliate, this will be seen by our neighbors as an
invitation to attack us; alternatively, if we do retaliate, they
will be less inclined to attack us. Thus, retaliation is still
very much in the air here. We are praised by the West for our
restraint; this very same restraint is perceived by our neighbors
as a sign of weakness. And why this cruel word, retaliation? It
is defending our county. Which we will do.
National pride, the picture of Israelis returning to share our
fate, to be HERE, now, when the pressure is on. My youngest son,
after 3 years of army service in as a commando, now relaxing and
touring the Far East, calls in the early morning. He tells us
that he is returning, cut- ting his long trip short by months.
We try to disuade him; what will he do here? But nothing helps
when he has made up his mind. I fear for his safety but I am
proud. He will come back, together with other Israelis, together
with immigrants from Russia who continue to come, with immigrants
from Ethiopia. I will be happy to see my son.
The news this morning is discouraging. It seems that much of the
coalition's successful bombing has been against dummy targets.
Most of Iraq's missile launchers are intact, almost all of their
planes. The communication facilities are still almost completely
intact. It is going to take much longer than we thought.
Life is slowly going back to normal. All are asked to return to
work - with gas masks. Schools will be opened tommorrow.
Meanwhile some factories are providing nursery services to
children of workers in gas proof rooms. The now ubiquitous gas
masks are found on the shelves of the nurseries. Radio
instructions now include various less likely scenarios ŇThe
Israeli penchant for inventing new words has not gone on strike
in the present emergency; the new word for scenario is now
universal - tarhish. There was a perfectly good word, tasrit.
Perhaps the association with movies or plays was perceived as
being too frivolous.■. What do you do when you hear a siren while
in a car? If you are in a built-up area, you turn off the
engine, put on your gas mask and dash for the nearest building,
counting on there being a shelter or on a good citizen who will
take you in. ŇActually quite probable. I remember the bomb
shelter hysteria in the States in the 50's, when guns to keep out
neighbors was part of the standard equipment.■ If you are in an
open area, stop the car, put on the mask, keep listening to the
radio. Life is going back to normal.
Yesterday, my wife and I go to visit a Russian family whom we
have adopted, our fourth. They are all wonderful people and each
family is different, each with fascinating stories. This is a
new family for me; my wife has already met them. We carry our
gas masks and presents, a carrot cake my wife has baked and a
radio. We decide to walk, we need the fresh air, the excercise.
They live 20 minutes away, near the open air market, Mahne
Yehuda, in an old, religious neighborhood. The apartment is
large, newly painted but very old under the paint. The man wears
a kippa, bears a long brown, curly beard, is short and delicate
looking. His wife is short, fat and has dyed bright red hair.
They are from Perm, near the Urals. They were both teachers. I
look at their sealed room; it is a joke, totally inadequate. I
point this out to them, all in a mixture of elementary Yiddish
Ňmine■ and elementary Hebrew Ňtheirs■, but they are only
interested in employment. They have a daughter with 3 children
who came with them and is now living in a Tatzpit Ňa small group
of families on top of a hill■ in the Galil■. They are happy to
be here; I am happy they are here: more good material for Israel,
one less family to suffer degradation in the USSR.
Life coming back to normal. We walk through the shuk, the open
air market. It is already dark, but the lights are brilliant and
the shuk is teeming with purchasers of the marvelous fresh fruits
and vegetables available, and nuts and dried fruit and spices.
Some of the stands, only a very few, are empty, closed. Where
are the owners? Have they fled? We buy some oranges, some
cucumbers and smoked fish.
Back home. Another day in Israel.
...
The southern part of the country is now back to normal life;
other than carrying gas masks with them, it is back to work for
the citizens of Ashdod, Beersheva, Eilat and surrounding regions.
Schools will probably reopen there tommorrow. Some Universities
are cautiously reopening, although the end of the first semester
was advanced a week. The Universities are now in inter-semester
and exams are to be given. All trains - only a minor form of
transportation here - are now running on full schedules.
A fair number of Tel Aviv citizens have chosen to leave the city.
They are camping with relatives and friends in what they perceive
to be safer parts of the country. Kibbutzim are crowded with
guests and hotels in Jerusalem, Eilat and Tiberius are enjoying a
small boom.
How do citizens of Israel feel about the governmental decision
not to react to Iraq's attacks by retaliation? A great majority
appear to think that this decision was correct; the left, of
course, totally surprised by Shamir's "mature" Ňas they see it■
decision, are enamoured of Shamir now. Government critic, MK
Dadi Zucker of the Citizen's Rights Party, spoke of wanting to
embrace Shamir, but for Zucker's self-confessed embarrassment.
The hard line Moledet Party insists on retaliation, now.
Most Israelis are for retaliation in some form. National pride
demands it. How can we passively accept an attack, gratuitous as
it was, by a foreign nation? The problems with retaliation are
both distance and a proper target. The choices seem to be
between a massive attack or an elegant one. There is a feeling
that the airforce is capable of a massive attack even at the
distances in- volved which will require refuelling in mid-air.
But can we compete with the coalition? What can we do that they
can't? The possibility of an elegant retaliation seems more
attractive; it would involve limited risk - in numbers - and
achieve an important and visible goal. The killing of Saddam
comes to mind as a possibility. Is this feasible?
Meanwhile the threat of attack on us still exists. The missile
launchers have not been taken out action. The Iraqi airforce is
still intact, its performance capabilities a question mark.
Anxiety here is controlled, people are going back to work.
Another blow to Israeli pride has been the arrival of US Army
personnel to operate the Patriot missiles. Israel has prided
herself by never before using foreign troops to fight for her.
There is some consolation in the training of Israeli crews by the
US teams and the knowledge that the Americans are not here for
long.
What we can be proud of is the performance of the Civil Defense,
the hospitals, the Army, the Airforce - airplanes are flying all
the time so as to be ready and not attackable on the ground - the
radio and TV and the general population, who have behaved -
almost entirely - in an intelligent, praiseworthy fashion.
__Bob Werman
rwerman@hujivms
Jerusalem
svet.273djovicevic,
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 91 17:26 +0200
From: RWERMAN@HUJIVMS
Subject: RE: shalom
Ňanother report from Bob Werman in Israel■:
Thursday, 24 January
Last night another air raid alarm. Here is how it went, a
few minutes of hightened secretion of adrenalin which seemed much
longer:
22:10 The radio is interrupted by a sisma, a code name for
call up of an army group, but in this case perhaps
the code indicating an attack.
22:10 I hear the siren, clearly up and down, the signal for
a true attack. ŇThe local joke is that the up and
down wail of the siren signals our indecision; whether
to use the gas-proof room upstairs or the more safe
against blast shelter below.■ I help my mother into
the poison gas-proof room and call my wife. I rush
to pee ŇThere is no time to waste three syllables on
"urinate."■ before I enter and we seal the door with
tape at all the edges and a wet towel below. We put
on our gas masks, my mother always needs help with hers
ŇThe instructions are definite about always getting
yours on first; if something happens to you, you will
not be able to help anyone else.■, turn on the
transister radio ŇThe electricity might be knocked out
or fail.■ The radio is reassuring, telling us that as
soon as something definite is known we will be told,
that the alarm has been given throughout Israel, that
we are to to go to the gas-proof rooms, put on our
masks and listen to the radio. The directions are
given several times in Hebrew and then briefly trans-
lated into English, Russian, French, Amharic ŇThere
are new Ethiopian Jews arriving every day.■, and a
Slavic language which I can not recognize. I notice
how much better they have gotten at this, the announcers
telling us how much they know, and promising to tell us
more as soon as they know. Instructions are given to
those caught in cars ŇPut on gas masks. If near a
building, to hurry to it after turning off car. If
not in a built up area, to turn off car and remain
in the vehicle, tuned to radio.■ We are told that the
alarm was sounded because of an attack on Israel. We
remain tense, make jokes. There are some friends and
relatives who have told us they have difficulty in
hearing the siren. We have a telephone in the room,
their numbers, writ large, nearby. We remembered to
call them as soon as we were secured; they had heard,
but thank us.
22:17 We are told to remove our masks but to remain in the
sealed rooms. We breathe a sigh of relief; it apparently
was not a chemical attack.
22:21 We are told that everybody, except those living in the
greater Tel Aviv area, can leave the sealed rooms but
not to leave home.
22:43 We are informed that a SCUD missile was downed by a
Patriot anti-missile missile in the north ŇLater we
would be told that there were 2 Patriots, that the
north meant over Haifa.■. No one hurt ŇAt 11 PM,
we would hear that a fair amount of broken windows
and door frame damage took place.■. What a relief!
And a new source of hope, the Patriots - They really
work! Attacks also reported from Saudi Arabi where
the Patriots were again effective. Everyone can
leave the sealed rooms.
Sleep is still a problem; everything is, of course, worse
in Tel Aviv. I call friends there, listen to their indecisions
about whether to stay or leave. I try to help with advice,
usually by saying what they want to hear. They wonder: Would
leaving be desertion? Just for one night? To get some sleep?
On late night programs I hear psychologists give advice on how
to sleep. From a friend in Tel Aviv, I learn that one does not
shower or use a blower to dry your hair when you are alone - in
order not to miss the siren.
Yesterday, I went back to work for the first time since
last Thursday; most people are there, there is little talk of the
war or the bombings. Friends from Tel Aviv call, to talk a bit -
they are much more in it than we are. Their terror is still real,
almost palpable. But they are functioning.
There is a debate on the situation in the Knesset, our
Parliament. I miss most of it but get the flavor: almost all of
the members feel that we should strike Iraq BUT not now as there
is nothing we could do that the Coalition is not already doing.
Two Arab members of Knesset manage to blame us for being bombed
by Iraq's missiles. One member says that there is one thing that
will never be forgiven Saddam Hussein; that he is responsible for
one and a half million children having to wear gas masks.
A Danish military expert claims that the payload of Tuesday
night's SCUD was too great for it to have come from Iraq. He suggests
that Jordan is being used to stage the missile firings. Could King
Hussein be so foolish? Is he under such great pressure from the
Iraqis? His rule is tenuous enough without inviting us to attack
him. What ever could he be thinking? Has he been trapped by the
rhetoric of the situation once again, as in 1967?
The Americans announce that they have definitely destroyed
the two Iraqi nuclear reactors. It is almost 10 years since we
took out the French built Tamuz reactor in Ossirak. We were con-
demned ŇA typo: I type "cohndemned".■ by the world for this action.
But we set back the war machine that the West was building in Iraq
by 10 years. Who will remember to thank us for that? We do not
need the thanks, as we too - not only the troops fighting in Persian
Gulf - are the direct beneficiaries of that attack.
We are still looking for a new elegant attack on Iraq. A
French engineer who worked for Saddam writes, according to one of
my correspondents, that Saddam Hussein's bunker has two weak points:
the air intake and the exhaust shaft for a diesel generator. Those
two shafts are apparently camouflaged to protect them against bombing.
They might be easy to locate from the ground.
Another writer tells me that he is an expert in dust free
environments and that the filters in the underground shelters may be
their weak points. He suggests a number of common agents that he has
shown can destroy high grade filters.
******
Just at the beginning of the attack on Israel, almost a week
ago, I found an email address from Cairo on one of the intellectual
nets. I thought it might be fun and interesting to correspond with
someone so close, and yet so far. He responded favorably, and tells
me that all is calm in Cairo at the moment, but that "nobody seems to
have any information about the war." "Cairenes," he reports, "seem
to be very blase about the whole thing; their attitude is that they've
seen it all before." He sounds interesting; I wish I had more time
to get know him. After this is all over, I hope.
__Bob Werman
rwerman@hujivms
Jerusalem
===================================================================
svet.274lanik,
>> To što ti zoveš tipična arapska imena, to su ustvari tipična imena
za pripadnike muslimanske vere. <<
Stvarno? Nisam ni znao da Bosanci imaju ista imena kao i
Iranci...
>> Ovo ti je argumenat DJ.
Izvini, ali ja mislim da se Slovenska, Anglosaksonska ili
Skandinavska "faca" i medjusobno dosta razlikuju, a kamoli od Arapskih
"faca".
>> >> 3. - Iranska vera (Islam - kao i kod svih Arapa)
>> I kao kod ne tako malog broja Južnih Slovena...
Da, ali mi smo bili "pod Turcima", a pod kim su *oni* bili?
>> Nešto mi nije poznato da je Iran član Arapske lige...
Pa *sada* verovatno nije.
>> I kao do skoro sve istočne zemlje. Rusi, žesi, Poljaci, Srbi,
Hrvati, Mađari, sve sami Arapi.... <<
Izvini molim te! Hteo si da kažeš "bili su". Evo ti u Srbiji,
društvo prijateljstva Srba i Jevreja i slično. Ponovo se uspostavljaju
"dobri odnosi" itd. Komunizam, *dok je bio na vlasti* je bio protiv
Izraela. I nemoj zaboraviti da je protiv Izraela bila samo zvanična
država, a ne i narod. U tome je *velika* razlika. Arapi *mrze* Jevreje.
A čak i da jesu protiv, ne vidim kakve to veze ima? Šta to
dokazuje? Nigde nisam rekao da su svi koji su protiv Izraela Arapi, već
samo da je za Arape tipično da mrze Izrael i Jevreje.
>> ali sledeći put se potrudi da tvoji argumenti imaju i neku snagu. <<
Moji argumenti *imaju* "neku snagu". Ali mi izgleda imamo
toliko oprečna mišljenja, da nas nikakvi argumenti nemogu i neće
razuveriti od onoga što tvrdimo.
svet.275lanik,
>> Srbi su prirodno glupi i lako ih je izmanipulisati - šta će vam
bolji primer od Slobodana Miloševića i njegovih sledbenika. <<
Srbi su *lenji* i glasali su za onoga kod koga neće morati da
rade. Ovako im je lepo - kao fol rade u kancelariji, fabrici ili gde
već, imaju stalnu platu, socijalno i ide im staž, pa malo šmugnu kući,
obradjuju zemlju - super!
>> Hrvati su prirodno glupi i lako ih je izmanipulisati - šta će vam
bolji primer od Franje Tuđmana i njegovih sledbenika. <<
Hrvati su glasali za bilo koga da ne bi glasali za komunjare.
Ali izgleda da im se svelo na isto. Poučeni greškom Hrvata, Srbi su
glasali za Komunjare. ;))))))))))))))))))))))))
svet.276lanik,
>> Ali jedini razlog za to je taj sto su lenji, a ne zato sto nemaju
sansi za uspeh u Americi. <<
Tako jeeeeee! ;))))
svet.277lanik,
Pa javili su na TV! Ne misliš valjda da sam ja to izmislio?
>> Iracani i Iranci se mrze ko pas i macka. Ne mislis valjda da bi
Sadam stvarno tamo prebacio svoje avione? <<
Da, ali *zajedno* mnogo više mrze Izrael.
>> Jeste, Ameri glupi a ti prepametan! <<
Vkostiću, oladi malo. *Možda* ja i jesam "prepametan" ali si ti
*sigurno* nekulturan.
svet.278lanik,
>> I, da li je taj kandidat izabran za predsednika? <<
Ljudi, kako malo ne razmislite logično?
Koliko ima crnaca u americi? Oko 40+ miliona.
A belaca? Oko 200+ miliona.
Pa što bi onda tih 200+ miliona belaca izabrali crnca za
predsednika?
Osim ako taj crnac nije *puno* bolji od svih "belih" kandidata
- a takvog, za sada, nije bilo.
svet.279lanik,
>> Makedonija je uvek SILOM bila Srpski"satelit". <<
Ili nisu imali gde? Da nije bilo tih istih Srba, Makedonci bi
sada svi bili Bugari ili Grci. Objasni mi što ih van Juge niko ne
priznaje?
svet.280lanik,
>> Samo sam hteo da kažem da je i žaušesku imao bunkere, ali je stradao
ne od nuklearne bombe nego od onih koji su zajedno sa njim trebali da
koriste te iste bunkere... i koji su "promenili mišljenje" kada je
vetar počeo da duva sa druge strane. <<
Osnovna razlika izmedju žaušesku-a i Husein-a je u tome što je
žaušesku imao neprijatelje medju svojim narodom. Ovi Huseinovi su
toliki fanatici da bi pre pomislili bilo šta drugo, nego da ih njihov
"veliki vodja" koristi i šalje ko' ovce na klanje.
Islam... Veoma jako oružje.
svet.281lanik,
>> Prosto neverovatno!
Šta neverovatno? Da nisu možda Crnogorci NAROD?
Prostudiraj malo istoriju. Crnogorci su pre komunističke
Jugoslavije UVEK bili po veri Pravoslavci, po narodnosti Srbi, a po
državnosti Crnogorci. Šta misliš zašto sada postoji pokret za
ujedinjenje Crne Gore i Srbije, ako Crnogorci i Srbi nisu isti narod?
Ili za bosance??? Xa, xa, xa, xa, xa...
žekaj da dodjem k'sebi.. :))))))
Koji su narod Bosanci???? Koje poreklo imaju? Kada nadješ
odgovor na ovo pitanje biće ti jasno da Bosanci i nisu narod. Bosanci su
Srbi koji su promenili veru ili su Hrvati. A po veroispovesti su
Muslimani (iako ne svi). Ne brkaj veroispovest i narodnost.
Najbolje što je ova zemlja ikada imala, to je bila Kraljevina
Srba, Hrvata i Slovenaca. Jer, to je jedini pravi pravedan naziv
Jugoslavije. U čijem imenu se nalaze imena svih *naroda* koji postoje u
Jugoslaviji. Hmmm... Dobro, možda bi i Makedonci tu mogli da se
"prošvercuju", ali Bosanci? Nikako! Bosanci narod? Xa, xa, xa, xa...
>> Postajes smesan kao albanski istoricari. Oni tvrde da su svi
poreklom Albanci. <<
Sa jednom razlikom. Albanski istoričari su Albanci, a ja
*nisam* Srbin. Stoga me ne možeš optužiti da sam nacionalista.
>> Ako Slovenci zele sasmostalnu drzavu ja im ne mogu to zabraniti.
Tačno. Ali bolje za njih da ostanu sa nama. Meni je, kao
gradjaninu Srbije svejedno. Lakše konju bez samara. Ovako će se za
koju deceniju asimilirati sa Austrijancima i Italijanima i nestati kao
narod. A to bi mi, pomalo, bilo i žao. Zbog Slovenki. ;)))
svet.282bulaja,
> > Nesto mi nije poznato da je Iran clan Arapske lige...
> Pa *sada* verovatno nije.
Nije nikad ni bio jer nikad nije bio arapska zemlja.
> Izvini molim te! Hteo si da kazes "bili su". Evo ti u Srbiji,
> drustvo prijateljstva Srba i Jevreja i slicno. Ponovo se uspostavljaju
> "dobri odnosi" itd. Komunizam, *dok je bio na vlasti* je bio protiv
> Izraela. I nemoj zaboraviti da je protiv Izraela bila samo zvanicna
> drzava, a ne i narod. U tome je *velika* razlika. Arapi *mrze* Jevreje.
Ma jeste, sad mi obozavamo Izrael i klanjamo mu se do zemlje
Ovo priklanjanje jevrejima je obicna "zvanicna" politika i vodi
se pod budnim nadzorom sadanje vlasti, koji se nadaju da su tamo
pare, ali do sada se jos uvek vise zaradi na arapskim studentima
nego izraelskim limunovima.
A zasto si napisao da je komunizam *bio* na vlasti? Mozda je
otisao a da ja to nisam primetio, pa zato kad bude odlazio sledeci
put, napomeni mi da ne bih opet propustio slavlje.
svet.283bulaja,
> Sta neverovatno? Da nisu mozda Crnogorci NAROD?
> Prostudiraj malo istoriju. Crnogorci su pre komunisticke
> Jugoslavije UVEK bili po veri Pravoslavci, po narodnosti Srbi, a po
> drzavnosti Crnogorci. Sta mislis zasto sada postoji pokret za
> ujedinjenje Crne Gore i Srbije, ako Crnogorci i Srbi nisu isti narod?
Svasta! Zaboravio si da napomenes da su Crnogorci zadnjih nekoliko
vekova imali svoju drzavu cak ni kad je Srbija nije imala, a da po
narodnosti *NIKAD* nisu bili Srbi. Doduse, verovatno imaju zajednicke
korene, ali su se oni izgubili pre vise od 10 vekova, pa se ne moze
nikako govoriti o jednom narodu. Doduse, Crnogorci u Srbi su u svojoj
istoriji dosta saradjivali (pa se npr. i sada koriste u politicke svrhe)
ali su zato nekad i ratovali.
Ukoliko ti ides u jednu krajnost i ne priznajes Crnogorce kao narod,
onda su ja da odem u drugu krajnost i da tvrdim da Crnogorci imaju veca
prava na drzavnost i od samih Srba.
svet.284dkropek,
Bravo Lanik, ti si Car ! ;->
svet.285vcalic,
>> Ma jeste, sad mi obozavamo Izrael i klanjamo mu se do zemlje
>>Ovo priklanjanje jevrejima je obicna "zvanicna" politika i vodi
>>se pod budnim nadzorom sadanje vlasti, koji se nadaju da su tamo
>>pare,
Nesumnjivo je da iza naše (zasad ničim dokazane) "ljubavi" prema
Izraelu stoji ekonomski interes, ali da je bilo pameti do uspostavljanja
odnosa sa Izraelom bi došlo znatno ranije. Jevreji su narod koji ne
zaboravlja pomoć koja im je pružena. A Srbi su dosta pomagali Jevrejima. Moje
lično mišljenje je da bi se u ovom trenutku trebalo solidarisati sa Izraelom.
WR
svet.286lanik,
>> Ma jeste, sad mi obozavamo Izrael i klanjamo mu se do zemlje Ovo
priklanjanje jevrejima je obicna "zvanicna" politika i vodise pod
budnim nadzorom sadanje vlasti <<
Ne budi smešan! Jevreji i Srbi imaju *dosta* toga zajedničkog!
I bolje da smo sa njima nego sa Arapima od kojih nemamo nikave koristi,
već samo štete!
svet.287lanik,
>> Svasta! Zaboravio si da napomenes da su Crnogorci zadnjih nekoliko
vekova imali svoju drzavu cak ni kad je Srbija nije imala <<
Ma kakve veze ima država sa tim? ja kažem da su oni uvek imali
svoju državu, ali su isto tako uvek bili i ostali SRBI IZ CRNE GORE!
svet.288lanik,
>> Bravo Lanik, ti si Car !
Znam! ;))
svet.289lanik,
Tako je Vcalicu! Napokon da se složimo oko nečega! ;))
svet.290boban,
Ovo je mozda zakasnela reakcija, ali FORUM inace izbegavam.
Veceras greskom nisam, pa sam se nasao u sred americko-irackog okrsa-
ja na SEZAM-u i ostao zaprepasten.
Dejane, Iracani nece dobiti lekciju (u ovom stanju oni nisu spo-
sobni da uce) koju su dobili Argentinci na Foklandima. Pre bih rekao
da su Amerikanci otisli po svoju lekciju, kao Britanci svojevremeno.
Iz prostog razloga sto oni u tom ratu ne mogu pobediti! Oni mogu da
biraju izmedju poraza i katastrofe. Britanci su na F. branili svoje
gradjane od agresije jedne strane drzave koja ni sama u taj rat ni-
je verovala niti su joj ta ostrva trebala za bilo sta osim da bi po-
vratila poverenje svog naroda koji je godinama brutalno terorisala.
Pa ipak, pobednicka euforija Britanaca je trajala koliko i adrenalin
u krvi. Ratni trijumf se brzo pretvorio u stav da je Tacerka kriva
za sve i oni su pozurili da sve to zaborave sto pre.
U Zalivu je situacija slicna, a opet, sasvim drugacija. Druga-
cija na stetu Zapada (prvenstveno Amerike) i njegove teorije o po-
hodu ujedinjenih snaga Demokratije protiv sila Zla. Kao prvo, ni
kuvajtski emir nije tako neinteligentan (ne verujem u Lanikovu ras-
nu teoriju) da ne zna kako Zapad (naravno, tradicionalna anglosak-
sonska politika) nikad nije i nece biti prijatelj njegovog naroda.
Isto to odavno znaju i u okolnim zemljama regiona, bez obzira sa
koje se strane nalazili u ovom sukobu, jer ne zaboravi da oni nisu
otkrili Zapad onda kada su Srbi culi za bliski istok i arapsko pi-
tanje, nego imaju poduze iskustvo sa prevarama, laznim obecanjima
i terorom branilaca Zapadne demokratije (imaju ga i Srbi ali su im
trenutno puna usta McDonalds hamburgera). Dakle Amerika nema ni
jednog bezrezervnog saveznika (nisu to ni Evropski saveznici) a,
trupe im se nalaze u izrazito neprijateljskom delu sveta sa izra-
zito nepovoljnom klimom za visoko tehnoloski rat za koji su oni
jedino spremani (namerno ne kazem spremni). I tu je jos jedna
slaba tacka u ratu sa Irakom: visoka tehnologija. Elektronika je
onoliko korisna koliko se moze obezbediti njeno nesmetano funkci-
onisanje i odrzavanje. I to samo za podrsku drugih, mnogo brutalnijih
ali efikasnijih tehnika ratovanja. Ne postoji konvencionalno oruzje
koje bi bilo dovoljno efikasno protiv dvanaestogodisnjaka koji trce
kroz minska polja, osim istih takvih dvanaestogodisnjaka. Husein
je to morao da nauci u Iransko-Irackom ratu i pored svog vrhunskog
naoruzanja koje mu je taj isti Zapad prodavao ili poklanjao, dok je
jos ratovao protiv islama.
Ne pada mi na pamet da predvidjam ishod ili trajanje rata u
Zalivu, ili da predvidjam kakvu ce ko taktiku da primeni (tipicno
jugoslovenski sindrom 'fudbalskog selektora'), ali poenta je u ovome:
Amerika moze da oslobodi Kuvajt uz dosta zrtava, razaranja i enormne
troskove i da se izbori za svoj poraz jer Amerikanac ne moze da prih-
vati rat u kome gine iko osim 'bad guys', a pogotovo ne pad dolara.
Kuvajcanima ostaje da se vrate u razoreni Kuvajt, da zive u komsilu-
ku Sadama Huseina kome nece biti nista ni ako se povuce (jos moze i
da trazi ustupke!) i da veruju kako im je Zapad pomogao (sto ce mo-
rati da plate, zapravo dobar deo kampanje vec sada oni placaju).
Svako primirje ili diplomatska aktivnost pre nego sto to postignu
bila bi katastrofa ravna onoj u Vijetnamu, jer sve ono do tada bi
previse kostalo. Razmisljati o nekom osvajanju Iraka ili obaranju
Huseinovog rezima trenutno je neozbiljno, bar dok se ne pojave inte-
resenti u samom Iraku.
Ne znam da li sam te dobro shvatio, da li je to ta lekcija?
Ovaj put necu o tvom odusevljenju za ulogu novinara u odbrani
demokratskih tekovina SAD i o njihovoj istini, samo mi odgovori da
li verujes u demanti ambasadora Zimmermana (mislim da se tako pise)
povodom obecanja za demokratsku pomoc u demokratskom oruzju za demo-
kratske promene u Hrvatskoj.
svet.291boban,
Da, ja se jos cudim!
To sto je Jugoslavija veliki deo svog izvoza ostvarivala u Ir-
aku (ukljucujuci gradjevinske radove, izvoz naoruzanja i ostale us-
luge, ma kakve one bile) nikako ne moze biti RAZLOG vec samo POVOD
da ne bude uvrstena u zemlje ostecene zalivskim ratom. Jugoslavija
nije u Iraku gradila nuklearna postrojenja, nije im prodavala naj-
savremenije bojne otrove (na zapadu prezrene i 'zabranjene' kao ne-
vitesko oruzje) kao miroljubivi Nemci (tada jos zapadni) niti im je
prodavala Egzoset rakete koje nisu mogle da poseduju ni sve clanice
NATO-a, kao nasi odani prijatelji Francuzi, da ne pricamo o americ-
koj pomoci o kojoj 'demokratska' stampa u SAD zacudo cuti. Jedino
se mi intenzivno stidimo zbog toga.
Prave razloge za takav status Jugoslavije vidim u posebnom
odnosu Zapada prema nama u situaciji kada je cela 'Komunisticka
Evropa' na rasprodaji (bargain!), a neki istocni Jugosloveni jos
to odbijaju da sprovedu, vidim ih u dugotrajnoj diplomatskoj aktiv-
nosti Hrvatske i Slovenije (mnogo pre nego sto su za to javno ape-
lovali) da se Jugoslaviji nigde i ni na koji nacin ne pruza pomoc,
vidim ih i u ponasanju americkog ambasadora u Beogradu koji od
prvog dana kada je postavljen samo pravi svinjarije koje zatim ne-
vesto demantuje (secate li se Kosova?). To samo pokazuje da je nji-
hov stav prema nama odredjen drugim motivima, lokalno Balkanske
prirode i odnosa snaga, a ne nasim odnosima sa Irakom, Iranom, Pa-
lestincima, komunizmom, ili crnim djavolom (svi oni pod odredjenim
uslovima mogu biti prijatelji Amerike). Ali zato jos uvek mozete
cuti cak i pametne ljude kako tvrde da Zapad nece dozvoliti da se
Jugoslavija raspadne. Zasto? Pa, zato sto je to izjavio neki kon-
gresmen.
Pitanje: da li su Srbi mazohisti ili imaju kompleks nize vred-
nosti ili piju previse Coca-cole da bi shvatili sta im se desava?
svet.292bulaja,
> > Svasta! Zaboravio si da napomenes da su Crnogorci zadnjih nekoliko
> > vekova imali svoju drzavu cak ni kad je Srbija nije imala
> Ma kakve veze ima drzava sa tim? ja kazem da su oni uvek imali
> svoju drzavu, ali su isto tako uvek bili i ostali SRBI IZ CRNE GORE!
Posto mi se cini da bi ovo mogla biti poduza diskusija, reply si
dobio u forum/jugoslavija (moglo je i u civilizacija, u svakom slucaju
bi bilo bolje mesto nego ovde).
svet.293balinda,
>> A Srbi su dosta pomagali Jevrejima.
Ne kažem da ovo nije tačno, naprotiv. Međutim, treba pomenuti da su Jevreji
najpre i vrlo ubedljivo stradali u, recimo, ratnom Beogradu. :( Istina je da je
Beograd prvi grad, u porobljenoj Evropi toga doba, koji je bio praktično bez
Jevreja. Primera radi Italijani, iako važan nacistički saveznik, mnogo su bolje
i organizovanije štitili svoje Jevreje. Mađari, takođe. U ovom gradu Nemci su
se osećali prilično sigurno za vreme rata. Ne treba nasedati "Tihi-Prle"
propagandi. (Npr. to je grad odakle je lansirana čuvena pesma koja se pevala od
Urala do Normandije. Reč je o pesmi "Lili Marlen). To je grad koji je žestoko
bombardovan i pred kraj rata od strane savezničke armije. (Zagreb je prošao
kroz ceo rat a da nije polomljen ni jedan prozor!)
Istina je da su i posle rata opet (preostali i vraćeni) Jevreji (poput
ostalih imućnijih građana) surovo proganjani, te dobrim delom time proterani.
Istina je da smo od izbijanja IB-a blagonaklono gledali na "isterivanje Đavola"
iz jevrejskog naroda od strane "čika Staljina", a nakon izbijanja sinajskog
rata otvoreno stali na stranu Arapa. Zatim ubrzo prekinuli diplomatske odnose
sa državom Izrael, i sve do dana današnjeg iskrivljeno i tendenciozno
predstavljali tamošnje događaje. Stručno, materijalno i politički podržavali
smo (i danas to činimo!) sve što je bilo usmereno protiv njih. Intezitet našeg
antisemitizma bio je određen nekim trenutnim političkim interesima, ali je uvek
bio prilično izražen.
Ono što nije sporno je činjenica da je to sprovodila zvanična politika.
Međutim, slaba je vajda od tog argumenta. Svugde u svetu se narod pobuni protiv
sopstvene vlasti ako je nečim jako nezadovoljan. Ovde očigledno nije tako. :(
Jer ovo je jedan od malobrojnih glavnih gradova Evrope u kome su se ljudi
besili na bandere u samom centru a da se to prilično mirno trpelo i, u sasvim
solidnoj meri, sarađivalo sa okupatorom. :(
Nas ovde često zavara privrženost Srba prema nevoljnom i progananom. Mislim
da je reč o prepoznavanju sopstvene robovske istorije i metaliteta, i
simpatijama ka slabosti i nemoći. (?) Ono što takođe jeste istina, (i što možda
naša hrvatska braća sa Sezama neće priznati?) jeste da Srbi generalno ne prave
razlike među ljudima. Ono što Srbima smeta nije boja kože ili nacionalnost.
Srbima najviše smeta USPEH. :(
svet.294vcalic,
>> Ono što nije sporno je činjenica da je to sprovodila zvanična politika.
>> Međutim, slaba je vajda od tog argumenta. Svugde u svetu se narod pobuni
>>protiv sopstvene vlasti ako je nečim jako nezadovoljan. Ovde očigledno nije
>>tako. :(
Najbolji dokaz su decembarski izbori.
>>Jer ovo je jedan od malobrojnih glavnih gradova Evrope u kome su se ljudi
>> besili na bandere u samom centru a da se to prilično mirno trpelo i, u
sasvim
>> solidnoj meri, sarađivalo sa okupatorom. :(
I Srbija je jedina zemlja koju su komunisti iscedili do poslednje
kapi, a zatim pobedili na izborima. Mada kad se radi o WWII, mislim da Srbima
i nije bilo tako loše pod Nemcima. Nemci ne bi ubijali Srbe da nije bilo
komunističke zavere. Ali, za vreme rata Srbi jesu pomagali Jevrejima, koliko
je to bilo u njihovoj moći, iako se zapravo, pomoć uglavom svodila na sklapanje
brakova (pripadnike-ce jevrejske nacije koji su bili u braku sa hrišćanima,
Nemci nisu dirali).
>>Ono što Srbima smeta nije boja kože ili nacionalnost. Srbima najviše smeta
>>USPEH. :(
Potpuno tačno. Nažalost... :(((
WR
svet.295kvelkovski,
>>> Makedonija je uvek SILOM bila Srpski"satelit". <<
>
> Ili nisu imali gde? Da nije bilo tih istih Srba, Makedonci bi
>sada svi bili Bugari ili Grci. Objasni mi sto ih van Juge niko ne
>priznaje?
Tacno. Makedonci nisu imali gde! U bivsoj Vardarskoj Banovini bilo je
stacionirano *70%* zandarmskih snaga Kraljevine SHS. Pa ko voli,...
Sto se tice nepriznavanje od strane Republike Grcke i NR Bugarske:
Makedonci su posle rata imali sva prava u Bugarskoj sve do kasnih
60-tih, a cak je 1948 u pripremi bila i Autonomna Pirinska oblast koja
je bila zaboravljena zbog poznatih dogadjaja oko Informbiro-a. Tih
godina je u Pirinskoj Makedoniji bilo makedonskih skola, teatara,
kulturnih drustava, ucitelji su se obrazovali u Skopju, cak su i
posmrtni ostaci Goce Delceva prenete u Skopje. U rezultatima popisa od
1946-te bilo je 250,000 Makedonaca, 1956-te 190,000, dok je 1965-te
*ostalo* samo 9,000. Malo ranije, 1926 bugarski premijer Aleksandar
Stamboliski je ponudio Makedoncima osnivanje autonomne oblasti, ali su
ga uklonili vrhovisti (probugarski orijentirani) iz BMPO-a. Sada se
Makedonija tretira kao teritorija naseljena 'etnickim' Bugarima.
Pre Balkanskih ratova 1912 godine, u Egejskoj Makedoniji zivelo je
360,000 Makedonaca, od kojih 40,000 islamiziranih. Izmedju 1913 i 1926
15,000 Makedonaca su emigrirali pod pritiskom grcke uprave, tako da je
otvoren prostor za kolonizaciju. Makedonci nisu uzivali nikakva prava
osim sto je u Grckoj 1925 objavljen (i odmah povucen) 'ABECEDAR'
makedonskog jezika, u kojem je umesto kirilicom, pisano latinicom. U
gradjanskom ratu su na strani komunista ucestvovali i Makedonci, koji
su, cak, bili i brojniji, ali je posle Rezolucije IB-a, doslo do sloma
u KPG, pa su Makedonci tretirani kao 'Titovi spijuni'. Posto su se
najvece borbe odvijale na danasnjim okupiranim teritorijama Makedonije,
bilo je i masovnog iseljavanja naroda iz tih podrucja (iznad 80% su
bili Makedonci). Po sramnoj izdaji od strane monarhista, sve izbeglice
su ostale bez osnovnih ljudskih prava. Kasnije je Republika Grcka
dozvolila grckim izbeglicama koji su 'Grci po rodu' da ostvare sva
imovinska prava, dok se t.z.v. Egejskim Makedoncima i dan-danas ne
dozvoljava ulazak u Republiku Grcku (seti se viza). Grcka asimilacija
stigla je dotle sto su Grci zamenili sve slovenske toponime grckim,
zabranjivali su zakonom da se govori makedonski (cak i u kucama), i
prisiljavali su Makedonce na emigraciju. Te su teritorije iskoriscene
za kolonizaciju sa 'kolonizatorima sa zdravom nacionalnom svescu'
(citaj Grcima, izbeglicama iz Turske). Iako je najveci pritisak bio
1936-1941 za vreme vlade Metaksas-a, sve su grcke vlade slozne po
jednom pitanju: 'Ne postoji makedonska manjina u Grckoj', nego su to
'slavenofoni' Grci.
Zajednicko za Bugarsku i Grcku je stepen asimilacije Makedonaca.
Iako je asimilacija u Bugarskoj kasnije pocela (70-tih), bila je zesca
od grcke koja je pocela jos 1913 godine posle okupacije Egejske
Makedonije.
Za mnoge koji ne znaju: prikljucivanje Makedonije FR Jugoslaviji, te
davne 1944, bilo je uslovljeno pomoci oko ujedinjenja Makedonije. Prvi
posleratni (i uopste :)) predsednik Makedonije Metodi Andonov Cento
toliko je bio cvrst u svojim stavovima sto je cak jedanput u Skupstini
dok se govorilo o pravu na otcepljenje koje nije bilo uneto u Ustav,
demonstrativno je napustio sednicu.
Mislim da nije tesko izvuci zakljucak zbog cega su vlade Bugarske i
Grcke toliko slozne oko makedonskog pitanja.
Fakt je da je sada veoma tesko govoriti o teritorijalnom ujedinjenju
Makedonije, ali uvek ima mesta za kulturno i duhovno ujedinjenje.
Pozdrav,
Kire
svet.296boban,
> U ovom gradu Nemci su se osecali prilicno sigurno za vreme rata.
> Ne treba nasedati "Tihi-Prle" propagandi.
Ako si mislio na diverzije i pokret otpora u okupiranom Beogradu
daleko od toga da je to propaganda, makar je posle rata korisceno u
propagandne svrhe. Cinjenica da su pokret otpora u Beogradu (i drugim
vecim mestima u zemlji) cinili komunisti nije dovoljna da se POSTOJE-
CI dogadjaji nazovu propagandom; sasvim je drugo pitanje ko je i sa
kakvim motivima ucestvovao u tom otporu. Najpriznatiji pokret otpora
u okupiranoj Evropi su cinili francuski komunisti (mnogo ortodoksniji
i krvaviji staljinisti od nasih), koji su se posle rata proslavili
nezapamcenim crvenim terorom protiv istaknutih intelektualaca i li-
beralnijih Francuza (sve do 1946-47) na racun svojih ratnih zasluga,
ali ih ni dan danas nijedan Francuz nece nazvati propagandom. To rade
samo SRBI! Ne znam ko je to pruzao otpor Nemcima? Holandjani? Norve-
zani? Gde? U Americkim filmovima? Pa tamo i onako sav posao obavi de-
setak americkih robijasa (ako je uz njih Li Marvin), lokalno stanov-
nistvo je tu radi folklora. Da li si sasvim ubedjen da mozes da pre-
poznas propagandu?
> To je grad koji je zestoko bombardovan i pred kraj rata od
> strane saveznicke armije.
Ako si mislio da je to dokaz kako je Beograd bio mirno i cvrsto
Nemacko uporiste da su saveznici morali da ga bombarduju kao neprija-
teljski grad, ne mogu da se slozim. Za sve vreme rata ti isti savez-
nici se nisu pretrgli da Nemcima ucine i najmanju stetu (osim u filmu
"Snaga 10 Navarone", gde priglupog komunistickog komandanta uce kako
se minira brana), pa su tako uspeli da u najvecem bombardovanju koje
je Beograd doziveo, vecem i od Nemackog, ne pogode Nemacke vojne ci-
ljeve. Tek nedavno je objavljeno da je saveznicko bombardovanje Beo-
grada bilo iznudjeni politicki ustupak, bez vojnog znacaja. Naime,
Tito se zalio da je u Beogradu jezgro velikosrpskog otpora njemu kao
Vrhovnom komandantu i Oslobodiocu i to je izricito trazio od savezni-
ka. Ovo sam procitao u nekim novinama i ne snosim odgovornost za
(ne)istinitost, jer, licno, ne volim da ucim istoriju iz novina, po-
gotovo u ovakvim histericnim anti... vremenima.
> Intezitet naseg antisemitizma bio je odreden nekim trenutnim
> politickim interesima, ali je uvek bio prilicno izrazen.
Mislim da rec antisemitizam ne bi smela biti upotrebljena u ovom
kontekstu. U Srbiji i kod Srba anisemitizam NIKAD NIJE POSTOJAO. Svi
nesporazumi, razilazenja i sukobi IZRAELA i JUGOSLAVIJE su bili isk-
ljucivo ideoloske, politicke, dakle pragmaticne prirode, dok je anti-
semitizam oblik rasne i verske mrznje prema zidovstvu celog sveta,
dakle iracionalno osecanje. Uostalom u vreme formiranja nase svetske
spoljne politike Arapi su mogli biti bolja investicija (finansijski)
od Izraela, da ta investicija nije zrtvovana stvaranju mita o jednom
coveku.
Sto se tice stradanja Zidova u Srbiji za vreme rata ona su neos-
porna, ali ravnodusnost Srba prema sudbini Zidova meni je sasvim
razumljiva s obzirom da su Srbi, Zidovi, cigani i psi bili izjedna-
ceni, osim u sansama za bioloski opstanak, u kojima su psi bili
za nijansu povlasteni.
P.S. Da si okupator, da li bi vesao ljude o bandere u gradu u
kome se osecas bezbedno i da li bi se posle toga osecao jos bezbed-
nije?
svet.297dejanr,
>> Pa ipak, pobednicka euforija Britanaca je trajala koliko i adrenalin
>> u krvi. Ratni trijumf se brzo pretvorio u stav da je Tacerka kriva
>> za sve i oni su pozurili da sve to zaborave sto pre.
Bobane, gde ti živiš? Zahvaljujući (pored ostalog) i nesumnjivoj pobedi
u tom ratu, Tačerka je ostala na kormilu Velike Britanije najduže od
svih premijera u poslednje vreme (a možda i u istoriji, ne mogu da se
setim), povukla se časno i za dobro svoje stranke (a nije morala) i ostaće
zapamćena kao izuzetno uspešan političar. Naravno, i ona je imala svojih
grešaka koje će takođe ostati zabeležene ali koji ih političar nema?
Rat u Foklandima će ostati zapamćen kao brza britanska pobeda i veoma
uspešna operacija. A Argentinci, ako kažeš da im do toga nije ni bilo
stalo, trebalo je da sede kod kuće. Ovako su dobili po njušci.
>> Amerika moze da oslobodi Kuvajt uz dosta zrtava, razaranja i enormne
>> troskove i da se izbori za svoj poraz jer Amerikanac ne moze da prih-
>> vati rat u kome gine iko osim 'bad guys', a pogotovo ne pad dolara.
Opet da pitam, gde ti živiš? Rat izaziva PORAST dolara, PAD cena nafte
i cvetanje američke privrede koju naprotiv detant ugrožava (ne kažem da
je to lepo ali tako je). Ako (kada) Saveznici oslobode Kuvajt, žrtve
će brzo biti zaboravljene a Buš će praktično overiti vizu za još 4
godine u Beloj kući. Naravno, loš ishod rata bi značio kraj za Buša,
verovatni pad dolara itd. To je kocka na koju je Američko rukovodstvo
pristalo.
>> Svako primirje ili diplomatska aktivnost pre nego sto to postignu
>> bila bi katastrofa ravna onoj u Vijetnamu, jer sve ono do tada bi
>> previse kostalo.
Zato i neće biti primirija.
>> Kuvajcanima ostaje da se vrate u razoreni Kuvajt, da zive u
>> komsiluku Sadama Huseina ...
... da obnove proizvodnju nafte (što, zahvaljujući parama koje imaju
"na strani", neće biti toliko teško) i da onda daju jako mnogo para
Americi i Zapadu za oružje kojim će se u sledećoj prilici braniti od
agresora. Takođe, da "trpe" američku vojsku u regionu (Saudijska
Arabija, na primer, do skora nije dopuštala Američkoj vojsci da
koristi njene baze) čime Amerika (i čitav Zapad), kako oni to
vole da kažu, "obezbeđuje svoje vitalne intrese". Kao što vidiš,
čitavo preduzeće je izuzetno povoljno za Ameriku, naravno pod
pretpostavkom da rat dobije.
>> Sadama Huseina kome nece biti nista ni ako se povuce (jos moze i
>> da trazi ustupke!) i da veruju kako im je Zapad pomogao (sto ce mo-
>> rati da plate, zapravo dobar deo kampanje vec sada oni placaju).
Jeste, neće mu biti ništa ;> Uz pretpostavku da Saveznici ne nastave
borbu do njegove bezuslovne kapitulacije (što je lako moguće), Huseinu
će ostati razrušena zemlja, uništena naftna postrojenje, mnogo mrtvih,
upropašćeno zemljište, srušene zgrade i instalacije... Obzirom da neće
imati naftne izvore u Kuvajtu, ostaće totalno bez para za obnovu. Ostaće
mu, doduše, podrška u siromašnim arapskim masama (mada je veliko pitanje
koliko čak i kod neobrazovanih ljudi onaj ko izgubi rat može biti heroj)
koje nemaju ni šta da jedu a kamoli da njega pomažu. U Iraku će biti
gladi i boleština, a Sadam će morati da se "pravda" za dvostruki ratni
neuspeh (izazvan isključivo njegovom glupošću), u Iranu i Kuvajtu. Neće
imati koga u okolini da napadne jer će mu vojska biti u haosu. Dakle,
ostaće mu samo da kapitulira ako ne pred strancima onda pred domaćim
"interesentima" koji će se itekako pojaviti čim njemu pođu kola nizbrdo.
On je svoje odzviždao.
>> Ne znam da li sam te dobro shvatio, da li je to ta lekcija?
Da, to je ta lekcija. Ne (samo) lekcija Amerike Iraku nego lekcija koju će
svet (kroz Ujedinjene nacije) dati jednom ludom diktatoru i agresoru.
>> Ovaj put necu o tvom odusevljenju za ulogu novinara u odbrani
>> demokratskih tekovina SAD i o njihovoj istini,
Samo napred. Reci mi čiji to novinari VIŠE od Zapadnih brane demokratsku
tekovinu i istinu? Ruski? Možda Irački?
>> samo mi odgovori da li verujes u demanti ambasadora Zimmermana
>> (mislim da se tako pise) povodom obecanja za demokratsku pomoc u
>> demokratskom oruzju za demokratske promene u Hrvatskoj.
Nisam o tome razmišljao, načelno verujem da gospodin Zimmerman nije
dao takva obećanja. Sad, ako ih je dao njegov vojni ataše... Uostalom, i
naša vojska je davala i prodavala oružje po svetu, pa nije dopuštala da
se neko zbog toga buni.
svet.298dejanr,
>> Ako si mislio na diverzije i pokret otpora u okupiranom Beogradu
>> daleko od toga da je to propaganda, makar je posle rata korisceno u
>> propagandne svrhe.... Da li si sasvim ubedjen da mozes da pre-
>> poznas propagandu?
Ako neko bezočno laže iz dana u dan, iz godine u godinu, onda je sasvim
prirodno da mu ne veruju čak ni ako govori istinu.
svet.299balinda,
>> Ako si mislio na diverzije i pokret otpora u okupiranom Beogradu
>> daleko od toga da je to propaganda, makar je posle rata korisceno
>> u propagandne svrhe. Cinjenica da su pokret otpora u Beogradu (i
>> drugim vecim mestima u zemlji) cinili komunisti nije dovoljna da
>> se POSTOJECI dogadjaji nazovu propagandom
Može biti da sam loše obavešten ali, ako izuzmemo rušenje pruga što i onako
nije velika šteta a i nije vezano za Beograd, u Beogradu su urađene samo dve
veće akcije. Jedna je paljenje nemačke garaže a druga spektakularno spašavanje
Aleksandra Rankovića iz bolnice u ul. Džordža Vašingtona. Jasno je da je (makar
ovo drugo) rađeno iz nacionalno manje važnih razloga.
To da su "pokrete otpora činili komunisti" odgovorno tvrdim da nije istina.
Odnosno, ravnopravno je bilo i drugih. Npr. moj ujak (koji je i nestao u ratu)
je u Kragijevcu zapalio veliki plakat na kome se ucrtavalo napredovanje nemačke
soldateske na istočnom frontu. Kasnije je taj, čisto rodoljubiv gest, pripisan
nekom skojevcu. Ja to nazivam propagandom, a ti?
S druge strane hteli mi to priznati ili ne, u čitavoj Evropi je bilo pokreta
otpora. Ono što je nas više karakterisalo od ostalih je njihovo međusobno
ratovanje. :( Ni malo lep argument da je nemačka vlast bila na "vrućem terenu".
(?)
>> ali ih ni dan danas nijedan Francuz nece nazvati propagandom.
>> To rade samo SRBI! Ne znam ko je to pruzao otpor Nemcima?
>> Holandjani?
Eto divne prilike da se negde i mi Srbi istaknemo. ;) žak i da nije reč o
propagandi, smatram da je bolje posumnjati da jeste nego verovati da nije? Od
sumnje jača kritički duh, što inače baš i nije srpska osobina. Zato mi se pre
čini da je ipak reč o propagandi? ;)
>> Da li si sasvim ubedjen da mozes da prepoznas propagandu?
Naravno da NE! Jedan od glavnih ciljeva propagande je da nas u nešto ubedi.
Propaganda koja se lako otkrije i nije vredna diskusije. Budući da je i DejanR
već nešto o tome rekao, ne bih se zadržavao osim na podsećanju da je kod nas
propaganda imala najvulgarniji mogući oblik. Reč je o brutalnoj agitaciji tako
da niko od nas i ne može tvrditi da zasigurno može prepoznati. Zato je povećana
sumnja najbolji način da se razbijeni centar ponovo isprede i svima je jasno da
je prve konce najteže razapeti kad nam svima u glavi još uvek duvaju vetrovi
decenijskog ispiranja mozga. Pošto smo, uslovno rečeno, "tvoju" istinu dovoljno
dugo slušali, nije li došlo konačno vreme za osnovni moralni, logički i pravni
princip odnosa među ljudima koji je istakla naša civilizacija pre dva
milenijuma u Rimskom pravu: "Audiatur et altera pars". (?)
>> P.S. Da si okupator, da li bi vesao ljude o bandere u gradu u
>> kome se osecas bezbedno i da li bi se posle toga osecao jos
>> bezbednije?
Može se to i ovako posmatrati: A da li bi ti vešao ljude o bandere u gradu u
kome se ne osećaš bezbedno ako znaš da bi se posle toga osećao još manje
bezbedno?
svet.300balinda,
>> Huseinu će ostati razrušena zemlja, uništena naftna
>> postrojenje, mnogo mrtvih, upropašćeno zemljište,
>> srušene zgrade i instalacije...
Zaboravio si i 80 milijardi dolara duga još od vremena rata sa Iranom, zatim
račun za štetu i troškove svima koji se budu dosetili da su ih imali oko ovog
rata itd, itd....
svet.301vkostic,
Danas su dva F15 oborili cetiri Mig-a 23 iznad Iraka.
Naravno, Mig 23 nije zadnja rec Sovijetske tehnike, a F15 jeste
zadnja rec Americke tehnike, ali to ipak pokazuje da ruski leteci
lonci nemaju sta da traze protiv Americkih aviona.
svet.302dejanr,
>> Naravno, Mig 23 nije zadnja rec Sovijetske tehnike, a F15 jeste
>> zadnja rec Americke tehnike, ali to ipak pokazuje da ruski leteci
>> lonci nemaju sta da traze protiv Americkih aviona.
│
... naročito ako ih "teraju" Irački izvanredno obučeni piloti... ;)
svet.303mtadic,
(FORUM:svet rep 2.291)
>> Ali zato jos uvek mozete cuti cak i pametne ljude kako tvrde da Zapad nece
>> dozvoliti da se Jugoslavija raspadne. Zasto? Pa, zato sto je to izjavio neki
>> kongresmen.
Jok, mnogo jednostavnije: zašto da u Evropi imaju 6 - 8 kanti za đubre, kad
mogu da imaju jednu ;>>
MT
svet.304madamov,
Sam si rekao da Mig 23 nije poslednja reč tehnike. Odnos između njega i
F15 je sličan odnosu između Spectruma i 386-ice, uzmi u obzir i Dejanovu
upadicu o obučenosti pilota i rezultat nije nimalo iznenađujući. U sukobu
između Mig-a 29 i F15 veće šanse na uspeh ima pilot koji upravlja "sovjetskim
ekspresnim loncem". Ostavi po strani filmove tipa "Top Gun" gde američki F15
obaraju kao od šale te iste F15 maskirane u "sovjetski ekspresni lonac" Mig 29.
Postoji jedan ruski avion za koji Ameri još nemaju odgovor. Dva aviona tog tipa
su oborila onaj korejski 747 pre par godina. Rusi nisu nikom prodali nijedan
avion tog tipa. Hoću da kažem da SSSR nimalo ne zaostaje za USA u tom pogledu.
svet.305djovicevic,
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 91 15:47 +0200
<from> RWERMAN@HUJIVMS
Subject: False Alarm
Jerusalem, Friday 25 January
False Alarm
Last night, at 22:32, the TV broadcast of the semi-final
round European Cup basketball game between Maccabi Tel Aviv and
Pop Split, last year's Champion's, from Yugoslavia was interrupted,
early in the second half - Tel Aviv ahead by 4 - by the flash of a
shield in the center of the screen. The strange medallion did not
mean anything to me for a second or two, until the message in the
center of the shield finally - How could I be so obtuse as not to
realize immediately what was going on? Was I not already a veteran
of air raid drills? - began to register - ALERT - written in
several languages. I called to my wife and only then did we hear
a siren. We hurried into the sealable room upstairs, and were all
masked and seated, more or less calmly, even my 86 year old mother -
who had to be awakened and did not quite seem to know was going on
- listening to the radio tell us that the alarm was for all Israel,
when ŇFINALLY!■ - at 22:35 - another siren was heard, this time a
steady blast ŇThe alert alarm is an alternately rising and falling
wail.■. The radio confirmed that there was now an all-clear condi-
tion. Did it last only three minutes? It seemed much longer than
that; how had we accomplished so much in only three minutes?
After the all-clear was digested by us, understood: Yes, we
were once again "safe," we could now resume watching the game.
How strange it seemed, an Israeli team ŇMost have been devastated
by loss of foreign players who left with the onset of Desert Storm,
but not our best team, Maccabi, with 4 Afro-Americans who all
stayed and played.■. How could they go on playing? But they
could not possibly know that there had been an alarm here; after
all, they were in Split, in Yugoslavia. Added to our relief after
understanding that what we had experienced was only a false alarm
- and added to the glow from the effective action of the Patriot
which still is felt - we were treated to a hair's breadth ŇWhich,
by the way means something altogether different in Shakespeare.■
victory by Tel Aviv. Two points and Split had the ball!
We latch on to good things, to good signs, we need reassurance.
Rain. The rain that we have had for two full days, is another
blessing. Or, a bundle of blessings. It has been a heavy and
hard rain. And we all love it. For so many reasons. We have
had a very dry winter and our major source of water, the Kinneret,
also known as Lake Tiberius or the Sea of Galillee, has been
drying up and is 3 meters below its normal level. To make
matters worse, we have had a scandal here with the National
Omboudsman ŇActually a woman, extremely impressive 70+ year
old Miriam Porot, a former Supreme Court Justice.■ revealing
almost Ň?■ criminal waste and mishandling of our water reserves
for years. Talk of buying water from other countries has been
depressing. We are a major exporter of desalination plants
but have none of our own. And now with this glorious rain
we are filling up the Kinneret again, only 2-3 percent of the
lack thus far, but the rain has not ended. And now it is also
snowing on Mount Hermon, snow that will melt in the spring and
feed the Kinneret.
But the rain and the accompanying heavy fog are also pro-
tection against air attacks; not from missiles but at least
from bombers. And the threat of poison gas bombs from planes
is seen as greater than that from missiles. The American
generals are convinced ŇOur experts disagree.■ that the Iraqis
do not have a chemical warhead for the long range SCUD which
can and has reached us. We are told that there is another
advantage of rain in a poison gas attack; the rain will wash
away and dissipate the gas more rapidly than would occur otherwise.
This morning my wife stood in the rain in a demonstration
against the visit of the German Foreign Minister, H.-D. Genscher.
He is here to show German identity with us in our time of need;
so he says. There has been tremendous criticism of the German
- and French and Soviet - arming of Saddam Hussein with sophisti-
cated military technology, in particular in the fields of poison
gas and missile warfare. With Zyklon B in the background, the
German government has been embarrassed, and the visit is seen as
an admission of guilt. Representatives of all French political
parties Ňexcept the Communists■ are also visiting now, identifying.
In the demonstration, the women stood in the rain, felt the first
snow flakes in Jerusalem this year fall on them and heard other
women, survivors of the concentration camps tell how they had
barely gotten through the threat of being gassed to death and how,
now, they did not want this to happen to their grandchildren.
Just as we are sensitive to the subject of poison gas, the Germans
are also sensitive to the subject. Just not sensitive enough to
desist from producing the materials, from selling the stuff to
the most irresponsible buyers around.
A little gas, even the threat of gas can do wonders: the
European Community has just cancelled all the sanctions they had
imposed on us.
Genscher is taken to see the ruins of the SCUD attack on
Ramat Gan Ňgreater Tel Aviv■; a little more guilt for the
German role in devoloping missile technology for Saddam Hussein
is never out of order. After all, we are not Jewish for nothing.
Genscher is intrigued to see a completely destroyed apartment
with a large Israeli flag flying from it. The owner of the
apartment, who has just finished hanging the flag is brought to
Genscher and asked what he was doing. A large, burly man, he
replies that he had to find a picture of his father, the only
one there is. Did he find it among the ruins? he was asked.
He pulls out the picture from his jacket pocket and kisses it.
He is asked if he feels any hate towards the Iraqis. No, he
says, not unless hate means feeling very bad; otherwise he is
not sure what hate is.
The problems of lack of sleep and increased anxiety are still
very much with us, particularly noticeable in children. Teenagers
cringe in Tel Aviv, waiting for the sound of the blast that they
have already heard so many times. There is more bed wetting,
whimpering and even crying in their sleep among children. We
hear psychological advice over and over again on the radio, not
only for children. Whole families sleep together, to reassure
one another, in a single bed. In other families, a watch is set;
one person stays awake to be able to hear the siren. Waiting.
One expert has advised fondling, caressing and even sex for
anxiety. When I ask a friend in Tel Aviv, he says "You must be
made of stronger stuff than me if you can think about sex at a
time like this." Truth is, I have not thought about it; I only
wondered if sex might be used as proof that you are still alive.
On the other hand, fear does remarkable things to your hormones,
even producing amenorrhea. But then again, so do anorexia
nervosa and schizophrenia.
Speaking of anorexia nervosa and psychological counselling
on the radio, one psychologist advised eating for anxiety. Only
in a Jewish country!
Last night's rain was associated with a thunder storm. Even
though we we were warned of thunder, my wife - and many others
- awoke in fright, fearing an explosion. There is now a radio
station for sleeping; it will broadcast nothing unless there is
an alarm. The siren that usually announces the Sabbath will not
be sounded this evening in order to prevent confusion.
An anecdote: following a kidney transplant operation, the
patient awoke in the recovery room to find the nurses and doctors
all wearing gas masks. He apparently was convinced by this strange
sight that he had died, not aware that an air raid siren had been
sounded and he began to cry bitterly. The staff attempted to
reassure him by telling him that his mother was waiting for him.
Since his mother had died 4 years earlier, this was the final proof
he needed to know with certainty that he was dead. The staff had
mistaken the patient's father's second wife for his mother. The
ending was, I am reassured, a happy one - once the confusion was
cleared up.
***********************
Apparently I forgot, in writing about how inviting the American
crews to man the Patriots and teach Israelis how to use them was
felt to be a blow to our pride, to tell how thankful we were and
are to America for sending the missiles and their trained crews and
to the crews themselves. The crews were overwhelmed with home baked
cakes ŇA radio announcement pleaded with the public to stop; there
was just too much.■. When a call was made on the radio for English
speakers to entertain the American guests, the response was over-
whelming. It is possible to be hurt and thankful at the same time.
And all this was before the first Patriot was fired. With the
success of the Patriots in Haifa on Wednesday night, our gratitude
is that much greater. The mayor of Haifa, where the Patriot downed
a SCUD, brought champagne and a case of whiskey to the American
crew which had manned the Patriot launcher. I hope they will not
be drunk when we need them again. If we need them again, as most
of us are still convinced we shall.
__Bob Werman
rwerman@hujivms
Jerusalem
svet.306vkostic,
>> Postoji jedan ruski avion za koji Ameri još nemaju odgovor.
>> Dva aviona tog tipa su oborila onaj korejski 747 pre par godina.
Nisu dva nego jedan. A mnogo je tesko oboriti putnicki avion!
>> U sukobu između Mig-a 29 i F15 veće šanse na uspeh ima pilot
>> koji upravlja "sovjetskim ekspresnim loncem".
Malo sutra! Tri stvaru su bitne:
1. Avioni se danas projektuju pomocu kompjutera
2. Avionom danas vise uptavljaju kompjuteri nego piloti, narovito
borbenim avionima
3. Bez (elektronske (citaj kompjuterske)) podrske sa zemlje nema nista
od uspesne borbe.
Mislim da ne treba dokazivati da su rusi 0 u kompjuterskoj tehnici. Sve sto
imaju od kompjutera su pokrali sa zapada. Prema tome, ni njihovi borbeni
avioni ne mogu da budu nesto. U njihovom borbenim avionima se jos uvek nalaze
elektronske cevi! Jeste da je to otporno na EMI prilikom nuklearnih eksplozija,
ali u poredjenju sa kompjuterima u Americkim avionima...
svet.307madamov,
Vidim da si ubeđen 100% u nešto, pa nema smisla da nastavimo sa ovom
diskusijom. Raspitaj se malo kod ljudi koji prate vazduhoplovstvo ( pogotovo
ratno ), nadam se da će to malo smanjiti uverenost u američku nadmoć u vazduhu.
Ono o obaranju korejskog aviona je bila samo asocijacija na tip aviona, a ne na
njegove mogućnosti.
svet.308boban,
> Zahvaljujuci (pored ostalog) i nesumnjivoj pobedi u tom ratu,
> Tacerka je ostala na kormilu Velike Britanije najduze od
> svih premijera...
Gde ja zivim? Mislim da ili si lose obavesten ili nedosledno
izvodis zakljucke. Tacerka JESTE ostala na vlasti zahvaljujuci tom
ratu i upravo to joj je bila osnovna zamerka. Do rata je doslo uoci
izbora i posto je cela nacija bila obuzeta ratnom euforijom ona je
trijumfovala. Kasnije, kada su se strasti stisale, neki ljudi su
dosli do zakljucka da se to moglo resiti i manje spektakularno i
sa manje zrtava, ali uoci izbora Megi je bio sustigao prvi veci ta-
las nezadovoljstva u zemlji. Bio je to "good timing". Kasnije su
Englezi snimili dokumentarni film o tom "malom prljavom ratu" sa
nimalo pohvalnim izjavama vojnika i oficira koji su ucestvovali.
Ja o tome sigurno ne znam mnogo, ali ono sto znam, znam od obra-
zovanih Engleza, koji mozda ne cine vecinu javnog mnjenja, ali ciji
stav smatram objektivnijim od onoga koji je bio sracunat da proste
vojnike posalje u rat.
Posle svega: ovaj rat sam naveo kao primer opravdane upotrebe
sile za odbranu svoje teritorije i stanovnistva iako ga nije tako
dozivela celokupna svetska demokratska javnost (osim SAD, ali oni
su nesto drugo...). Tek toliko da mi ne bi prebacivao ono sto nisam
rekao.
> Ovako su dobili po njusci.
U nekom drugom kontekstu mozda... Kada odrasli ljudi govore o
ratu ovakva recenica ne ostavlja mnogo mesta razumu.
Ovo je samo vrednosni sud i neka nikoga ne obavezuje.
> Opet da pitam, gde ti zivis? Rat izaziva PORAST dolara, PAD cena
> nafte i cvetanje americke privrede koju naprotiv detant ugrozava
Jos sam tu. Hvala, dobro, sto i vama zelimo.
NE. Rast dolara i pad cena nafte ne izaziva RAT nego trenutna
PROCENA njegovog ishoda, materijalnih gubitaka, mogucnosti za dalju
normalnu proizvodnju nafte i naplate troskova. Takodje i od iracio-
nalnih stvari kao sto je procena moci americke armije na kojoj po-
civa dolar (a ne na USA privredi). Berze ne funkcionisu na principu
"sad cemo pacerima da pomerimo dupe", iako navijacima nije zabranje-
no da stvar posmatraju sa te strane.
Koliko znam cena nafte je jos pre par dana pocela osetno da ras-
te, a sto se dolara tice to ce uglavnom zavisiti od lojalnosti savez-
nika (nemacke marke i japanskog jena). To se zasad ne dovodi u pita-
nje, ali kad dodje godisnji obracun...
(Dodatak pisan 29.01.: danas je u novinama zabelezen pad dolara
u odnosu na sve vodece valute istovremeno, sto u zadnje vreme nije
bio cest slucaj. Dovodi se u vezu sa ratom u Zalivu...)
Neko je spomenuo Iracki dug. Ne razumem kako sravnjivanje sa
zemljom imovine jednog od najvecih duznika moze povoljno uticati na
neciju ekonomiju? Pa kad jos grca u budzetskom deficitu?
> za oruzje kojim ce se u sledecoj prilici braniti od agresora.
Nazalost, novac i oruzje ne stite od agresora, ali zato mnogo
novca u maloj zemlji uvek privlaci agresora (govorimo o odredjenom
regionu). Inace Iracani sad ne bi bili u Kuvajtu.
> Kao sto vidis, citavo preduzece je izuzetno povoljno za Ameriku,
> naravno pod pretpostavkom da rat dobije.
Nikada nisam tvrdio suprotno. Jedino se ne slazemo u proceni
mogucnosti da oni taj rat dobiju, i to ne bilo kako nego pod tako
povoljnim uslovima da pokriju ogroman rizik operacije i ostvare
dobit.
Kad smo vec kod novca, koliko li je zivotno osiguranje savez-
nickog vojnika? Voleo bih da ga uporedim sa vrednoscu zivota nekog
bezimenog Iracanina koji gine za islam.
> Huseinu ce ostati razrusena zemlja, unistena naftna postrojenja,
> mnogo mrtvih, upropasceno zemljiste, srusene zgrade i instalacije
> ...a Sadam ce morati da se "pravda" za dvostruki ratni neuspeh
On to sebi moze da dozvoli jer njegov narod moze da zivi bez
svega toga, kao sto je ziveo do pre 30-ak godina, mrtve nece zaliti
jer je najlepsa smrt umreti za Alaha u BORBI, a nece morati nikom da
se pravda jer U OVOM STANJU (vrlo vazna napomena koju si prevideo u
mojoj poruci, iako one sporedne nisi) nikome u Iraku ne pada na pamet
da optuzi njega za bilo sta sto ih snadje. Seti se samo: "Sto je vise
kleveta i lazi, Tito nam je miliji i drazi!"
> Samo napred. Reci mi ciji to novinari VISE od Zapadnih brane demo-
> kratsku tekovinu i istinu? Ruski? Mozda Iracki?
Ruski, Iracki, Cileanski, Juznokorejski. Verujem da su i licni
novinari Idi Amina branili demokratiju i istinu. Ali oni rade i mnogo
vise: oni odredjuju i vrednosti koje ce se smatrati demokratijom i
granice do kojih istina sme da "vrslja", tacnije, oni promovisu ono
sto odluce Politbiroi, upravni odbori, Odbori nacionalnog spasa ili
Pokreti obnove. Ne tvrdim da to rade kao zaverenici, jednostavno ve-
cinu ljudi oko nas cine oni koji moraju da VERUJU NEKOME. Naknadu za
pretrpljene frustracije, razocarenja i potisnute sumnje, ukratko,
za dobrovoljno cenzurisanje svoga prava na DEMOKRATIJU (koju ti ne
moze odbraniti ni jedna stampa na svetu jer si za svoju SAM odgovo-
ran) pronalaze u pojacavanju mrznje prema protivnickoj istini i de-
mokratiji.
Koincidencija: dok sam sastavljao ovu poruku zvala me je pri-
jateljica koja se, opet, cula sa svojom prijateljicom iz Tel Aviva.
Bila je potresena i sokirana kad je cula da su zvanicno objavljeni
uspesi americkih "patriota" dezinformacija. Umesto uspesnosti 8:1
u obaranju irackih raketa odnos je oko pola-pola (mozda malo prete-
ruje, ali u strahu su velike oci). Tel Aviv je prilicno razrusen
i to ne samo stambene cetvrti vec i strateski objekti o kojima se
ne govori. Unisten je glavni racunarski sistem i neke komunikacije
(koliko sam shvatio mogla bi biti Berza; ima li toga u Tel Avivu?)
Najstrasnije joj je bilo sto je prijateljica zamolila da prekine
vezu jer se svi medjunarodni razgovori prisluskuju.
Bez malicioznosti, neka ovo bude malo prosirenje CNN pogleda
na svet.
> Sad, ako ih je dao njegov vojni atase... Uostalom, i nasa vojska
> je davala i prodavala oruzje po svetu, pa nije dopustala da se
> neko zbog toga buni.
Zasto atase? Nije atase isao na Kosovo da obilazi separatiste
i da daje skandalozne izjave.
Jedno je davati i prodavati a drugo je OBECAVATI pomoc za ak-
ciju koja jos nije izvrsena i time uticati na odluku. Ne shvatam
dalji smisao ove opaske o JNA. Da li je neko hteo da se buni pa mu
nije dozvoljeno... Posto ne znam ne mogu da komentarisem.
svet.309boban,
> Ako neko bezocno laze iz dana u dan, iz godine u godinu, onda je
> sasvim prirodno da mu ne veruju cak ni ako govori istinu.
Razume se da nisi u pravu. Tako si ti opet kaznjena (dezinfor-
misana) strana. A to sto ti nekome neces da verujes nikoga nece da
potrese.
svet.310boban,
> Propaganda koja se lako otkrije i nije vredna diskusije.
> Cak i da nije rec o propagandi, smatram da je bolje posumnjati da
> jeste nego verovati da nije? Od sumnje jaca kriticki duh, sto ina-
> ce bas i nije srpska osobina.
Pa ne znam bas... Najprovidnija propaganda za koju znam je na-
cisticka i komunisticka, pa ipak, rezultati koje je ostavila na ci-
tave narode... Mislim da je za kriticki duh vaznije kontrolisati
svoje emocije prema nekom izvoru informacija nego sumnjati u njega
za svaki slucaj. U protivnom te vesta propaganda moze naterati da
posumnjas i u ono sto je istina koju oni ne mogu da sakriju. Pre ili
kasnije ces samog sebe dovesti u situaciju da verujes u ono sto ti
se svidja a sumnjas u ono sto sto ti ne odgovara. Tada si potpuno
obradjena jedinka koja moze da se oprosti od svog kritickog duha.
To se kod nas sad masovno desava. Ponavljaju se greske iz proslosti.
> ne bih se zadrzavao osim na podsecanju da je kod nas propaganda
> imala najvulgarniji moguci oblik.
Slazem se. Ja tu vulgarnost vidim u paraleli Bata Zivojinovic -
Li Marvin (u nasem kontekstu). Isti cilj, isti QI (koeficijent imbe-
cilnosti). Ne shvatam gde je nesporazum. Mozda u tome sto si ti spre-
man da uocis samo jednu stranu medalje. Onu koja te je razocarala.
> Posto smo, uslovno receno, "tvoju" istinu dovoljno dugo slusali,
> nije li doslo konacno vreme za osnovni moralni, logicki i pravni
> princip odnosa medu ljudima koji je istakla nasa civilizacija pre
> dva milenijuma u Rimskom pravu: "Audiatur et altera pars". (?)
MOJU istinu ti nisi imao prilike da cujes. Bojim se da "istina"
sa kojom ti polemises nije u onom sto sam ja rekao, nego u onom sto
si ti zamislio da ja zastupam, a time si povredio neke "moralne i lo-
gicke principe nase civilizacije". Mnoge jos stvari tu nisu jasne. Da
li to znaci da sam ja "mojom" istinom ugrozio tvoje pravo da se cujes
kao druga strana ili si hteo da kazes da, posto je jedna istina bila
propisana decenijama, sada treba da prihvatimo onu drugu za sledecih
par decenija, radi "ravnoteze medju zvezdama"?
Onih nekoliko uopstenih cinjenica koje sam naveo ZAISTA smatram
nespornim i to ne zahvaljujuci propagandi nego obavestenosti (ne izu-
zetnoj koliko izuzetno nepristrasnoj), uz sve moguce ograde nekoga ko
nije bio prisutan. Zaista mislim da je besmisleno tvrditi da je u
ovoj zemlji bilo manje otpora Nemcima nego u bilo kojoj evropskoj dr-
zavi koja je imala status okupirane teritorije (izuzetak sam priznao:
Francuska). Da sam hteo da budem zvanican i precizan morao bih pome-
nuti jos i Poljake. Ko ostaje? Sto se tice tvrdnje da su pokret otpo-
ra cinili uglavnom komunisti, jedan ujak nije dovoljan kontraprimer.
Nije stvar u tome ko je cinio rodoljubive gestove, ni da li su svi
ucesnici tih dogadjaja bili clanovi Partije, nego u tome da je jedino
KP kao svoje ideolosko opredeljenje, preporuku, zahtev, NAREDBU ima-
la vrsenje diverzija protiv neprijatelja. Za tebe je to mozda propa-
ganda zato sto verovatno (pod uticajem stare propagande!) mesas ci-
njenice o nekim dogadjajima sa vrednosnim sudovima o tim dogadjaji-
ma. Ja nisam tvrdio da je Srbija TREBALA da pruza otpor, niti da je
KP zaduzila ovaj narod svojim herojskim drzanjem u ratu, ali ipak
ne mogu da negiram cinjenice koje mi se jos uvek cine apsolutno vero-
dostojnim, da bih na temelju starog sistema vrednosti (usadjenog
propagandom) izgradio IDEOLOSKI stav koji je sada u trendu i koji me
kao i onaj prethodni ostavlja sasvim ravnodusnim.
Dodatak ovoj prici: 1941. je u Smederevskoj tvrdjavi dignuto u
vazduh najvece skladiste municije u ovom delu Evrope, sa, koliko se
secam 40-50 vagona municije za nemacke jugoistocne armije. Ja ni do
dan danas ne znam KO je naredio tu diverziju a tesko da ce se i zna-
ti, posto je bilans, pored izgubljene municije za Nemce, ogroman
broj civilnih zrtava i vise od pola grada sravnjenog sa zemljom. Ne
treba zaboraviti ni stete na tvrdjavi koja je pre toga bila izuzetno
ocuvan predmet kulturne bastine. Komunisti se ne grabe za cast, nego
to prebacuju onima koji su radili po diktatu Londona. Tesko je reci
gde prestaju rodoljubivi gestovi, gde pocinje komunisticka propagan-
da, kao sto je tesko diciti se takvim rodoljubljem. Pa i kad bih
znao cije je to delo ne bih bio toliko drzak da mu sudim po svojim
ideoloskim merilima i iz vremena u kojem ja zivim, pogotovo ne da
budem cinican na tu temu. Dovoljno je da znam da se to JESTE desilo
i da UBUDUCE ne bi trebalo. To je mnogo blize "mojoj" istini.
> Moze se to i ovako posmatrati: A da li bi ti vesao ljude o bande-
> re u gradu u kome se ne osecas bezbedno ako znas da bi se posle
> toga osecao jos manje bezbedno?
Naravno da ne bih. Ali uvek ima onih koji misle da vredi poku-
sati. Neki su pokusali na Kosovu, doduse jos ne vesaju o bandere,
ali ne mislim da se iko sad oseca bezbednije. Ko se boji taj preti.
svet.311boban,
> Jok, mnogo jednostavnije: zasto da u Evropi imaju 6 - 8 kanti za
> dubre, kad mogu da imaju jednu ;>>
Zato sto je mnogo prakticnije imati 6 - 8 kanti za djubre.
Svaka od njih ce dobro da plati to djubre i jos da kaze "hvala" ako
joj se obeca mala pomoc u borbi protiv ostalih.
Srbija je pristala da uveze nuklearni otpad iz Nemacke, da ne
govorimo o tehnoloskom otpadu, da bi Nemci promrmljali neku lepu rec
u evropskom parlamentu (koju su svi preculi). Kako sam cuo, Hrvati su
dosta toga stavili na dobos (prica se za hotele na Jadranu), verovat-
no sa istim motivima. Sta ce drugi da ponude ne znam, ali da ce da
plate, morace.
To me podseca na ono " 'oces kupis ciglu". Dosad smo vec kupili
nekoliko ciglana. Da nas barem nisu toliko branili.
svet.312dejanr,
Pošto mislim da ovu diskusiju nema smisla nastavljati, najbolje je
da se sačeka mesec - dva, pa da se onda vidi šte je ostalo od Busha
a šta od Huseina.
>> Jedno je davati i prodavati a drugo je OBECAVATI pomoc za ak-
>> ciju koja jos nije izvrsena i time uticati na odluku.
Pa, ja bi više voleo da mom "neprijatelju" neko *obećava* oružje
nego da mu ga stvarno daje/prodaje. Ako bi ti više voleo obrnutu
varijantu, ja tu nemam komentara.
svet.313balinda,
>> Mislim da je za kriticki duh vaznije kontrolisati
>> svoje emocije prema nekom izvoru informacija nego
>> sumnjati u njega za svaki slucaj.
Nisam baš siguran da li ovo razumem? :( Meni ova tvoja tvrdnja gotovo liči
na logičku pogrešku. (?) Ako dobro razumem tvoju ideju, reč je o tome da je
potrebno "kontrolisati svoje emocije" (što nije sporno!) ali "prema nekom
izvoru informacija"? žak i tvoja tvrdnja:
>> Pre ili kasnije ces samog sebe dovesti u situaciju da verujes
>> u ono sto ti se svidja a sumnjas u ono sto sto ti ne odgovara.
predstavlja samo jednu od mnogobrojnih opasnosti na putu ka tzv. "istini" i
ne pada mi na pamet da zbog te opasnosti *drugome* poklonim presuđivanje
sumnjajući u svoje sposobnosti. Upravo zato mogu padati iz zablude u zabludu
ali se samo tako može razumom i iskustvom steći izvestan imunitet prema
propagandi. Zato mislim de je baš: "SUMNJATI ZA SVAKI SLUžAJ" najbolji početak
u potrazi za istinom. (?) Možda se mogu pomoći Platonom koji je tvrdio da je
istina tako zapletena što nam čini da osećamo odvratnost pri pomisli na njeno
raspredanje.
>> Ne shvatam gde je nesporazum. Mozda u tome sto si ti spreman
>> da uocis samo jednu stranu medalje. Onu koja te je razocarala.
Ovde stvarno ima neke istine i zahvalan sam ti što mi na to skrećeš pažnju.
Mislim da mogu mirne duše reći: "Manje nego što si pomislio"? Reč je samo o
opasnosti koja mi preti od zasićenosti starom zabludom. Zato se i sam prečesto
zapitam - `oću li uspeti da se oduprem novoj "istini". Pošto mi prilično
zameraju na praznom filozofiranju, trudim se da ne citiram neka zvučna imena za
"podršku" svojih razmišljanja. Zato evo nekih mojih razmišljanja o tome:
Zabluda je trenutna istina. Istina je trajna zabluda. Laž je
njihov posrednik. Od ova tri pojma najsrećni izbor je zabluda.
Naravno da je lična zabluda tj. zabluda za koju je čovek makar pomislio da
je njegovog uma delo, nešto što najviše uznosi. I ja, poput tebe, verujem da se
u traganju za istinom samo zamenjuju zablude ali ima istine da opasnost, na
koju je još Niče ukazivao tvrdeći da je zabluda o istini jednostavna (error
veritate simlicitor), ipak ne opravdava da "stara zabluda treba da juri svojom
starom stazom".
>> MOJU istinu ti nisi imao prilike da cujes. Bojim se da "istina"
>> sa kojom ti polemises nije u onom sto sam ja rekao, nego u onom
>> sto si ti zamislio da ja zastupam, a time si povredio neke
>> "moralne i logicke principe nase civilizacije".
Ovo je napisano takvim tonom da osećam potrebu da se izvinim mada ni sam ne
znam zašto, ali za svaki slučaj. ;) Ako dobro razumem akcenat na reči "MOJU",
red je da se podsetim na ono što sam u originalu rekao (tako je to sa ovim
predivnim mediumom lako, da sam oduševljen :))
>> Pošto smo, uslovno rečeno, "tvoju" istinu dovoljno dugo slušali,
>> nije li došlo konačno vreme ..... itd.
Dakle dve ograde: "uslovno rečeno" i navodnici na reči: TVOJU. No uprkos
svemu osećam potrebu da se još jednom izvinim za svoju nesmotrenost koja je
nastala ne računajući dovoljno na tvoju moguću osetljivost. S druge strane, bio
bih ti više nego zahvalan da *čujem* i tvoju istinu pogotovo zbog:
>> Mnoge jos stvari tu nisu jasne.
što uopšte nije sporno.
>> Da li to znaci da sam ja "mojom" istinom ugrozio tvoje pravo da
>> se cujes kao druga strana ili si hteo da kazes da, posto je jedna
>> istina bila propisana decenijama, sada treba da prihvatimo onu
>> drugu za sledecih par decenija, radi "ravnoteze medju zvezdama"?
Ovo prvo, s tim što si pravilno ocenio smisao time što ne kažem da mi *TI*
nisi to dozoljavao, već da je "istina" o kojoj ovde razgovaramo zaista bila
zvanična istina decenijama i kao takva potiskivala čak i potragu za drugom pa
čak i samu sumnju u nju, što istina ne bi smela da radi ako u opšte i ima
nameru za bilo kakvi dignitet. žini mi se da, ako izuzmo krajnosti koje nas
obojicu po malo opterećuju, se sasvim dobro razumemo?
svet.314balinda,
>> Zaista mislim da je besmisleno tvrditi da je u ovoj zemlji bilo
>> manje otpora Nemcima nego u bilo kojoj evropskoj drzavi koja je
>> imala status okupirane teritorije
Meni se ovo čini spornim, no to i nije tako važno. Ja sam želeo samo da
kažem da je "ona" propaganda decenijama predstavljala "otpor" (ili otpor)
okupatoru na ovim terenima velikim, presudnim i odlučujućim za budućnost ljudi
koji ovde žive. Ako je nekakav dokaz i činjenica da su Rusi već obesili zastavu
na zgradu Reichstag-a dok smo se mi lometali sa generalom von Lerom na našoj
teritoriji. Jedinice trećeg rajha predale su se na našoj terioriji tek nedelju
dana nakon završetka rata i nemačke kapitulacije. To samo za sebe ništa ne
znači mada izaziva izvesno podozrenje. Ako se složimo da smo ovde više mislili
na lokalne odnose nego na nemačko prisutvo kao nužno zlo, a verujem da ćemo se
oko toga složiti, možda bi se mogli složiti da je kod nas II svetski rat ipak
bio u prvom redu građanski rat u okruženju opšte svetske kataklizme? Možda ima
mesta da pomislimo zajedno kako je komunistički pokret u rat ušao sa ličnim
ciljevima pa često i protiv nacionalnog interesa a izašao kao nacionalni
ujedinitelj i kao konačni pobednik? U tim zamršenim okolnostima za
pretpostaviti je da je Nemačka imala manje problema nego u većini drugih
okupiranih teritorija kod kojih je poglavito nacionalni interes ipak bio
najpreči? Sve nakon toga, sve o "herojskom i epopejskom držanju partizana"
spada u domen propagande kao što bi isto tako uradili četnici da su pobedili.
Ono što su i jedni i drugi radili je (čini mi se?) bežanje po šumama i
hajdučija. Tito je sam priznao da je prvi direktni sukob sa Nemcima bio tek na
Sutjesci kad se već nije imalo kud. (!!!)
>> Sto se tice tvrdnje da su pokret otpora cinili uglavnom komunisti,
>> jedan ujak nije dovoljan kontraprimer.
:))) Da zaista, nisam ni pomislio. Međutim, ne verujem da sam ja jedini baš
imao ujaka koji je bio rodoljub a da nije bio komunista? Možda još neko može
pomoći? Do sada se to nije smelo ni reći a do nedavno smo i događaje od 27.
marta pripisivali komunistima. (Preporučujem da se obavezno pročita nedavno
izašla knjiga o tome.)
>> da je jedino KP kao svoje ideolosko opredeljenje, preporuku, zahtev,
>> NAREDBU imala vrsenje diverzija protiv neprijatelja
Ovo je VRLO sporno. Veoma mi je žao što trenutno ne mogu da ti kažem broj
poruke iz starog Foruma u kome se pominje jedna naredba, čini mi se, Arse
Jovanovića o tome kako se treba ponašati u ratu. Ako te ne mrzi obavezno je
pronađi i pročitaj. (Mislim da je u temi novine?) Tamo ćeš videti i jedan (do
sada NIKADA ne demantovan!) dokument koji (mislim?) najbolje svedoči o namerama
i planovima za vođenje rata protiv okupatora. Da se razumemo, ne tvrdim da su
drugi pokreti kod nas bili išta bolji, možda su bili i mnogo gori, ali mi se
čini da su im namere bile podjednako (ili slično) nečastne? Ako je suditi po
naredbi iz vrhovnog štaba o kojoj sam malopre govorio, KP nije imala takvu
NAREDBU koju ti pominješ već upravo suprotnu? :(
>> da bih na temelju starog sistema vrednosti (usadjenog propagandom)
>> izgradio IDEOLOSKI stav koji je sada u trendu i koji me kao i onaj
>> prethodni ostavlja sasvim ravnodusnim.
Ovo mi se jako dopada i sam tome iskreno težim. Budući da, verovatno ne
uspevam tako dobro kao ti, (nema nikakve ironije!) divno je da možemo
diskutivati na taj način. Zato je moja preporuka da se pokušaš više odupreti
staroj propagandi a ja ću pokušati da ne podlegnem novoj. Važi? :)
svet.315balinda,
>> Dodatak ovoj prici: 1941. je u Smederevskoj tvrdjavi dignuto u
>> vazduh najvece skladiste municije u ovom delu Evrope, sa, koliko
>> se secam 40-50 vagona municije za nemacke jugoistocne armije.
>> Ja ni do dan danas ne znam KO je naredio tu diverziju ...
Koliko ja o tome znam, junska eksplozija u smederevskoj tvrđavi nije uopšte
posledica nečije naredbe već posledica sasvim obične nepažnje. (?) Zato bi bilo
neprimereno unapred optužiti KP da je nekažnjeno gurnula u smrt OGROMAN broj
ljudi, bar dok se ne bi dokazalo da je odgovorna. žini mi se da za to nema
osnova i istine radi treba prvo pomisliti na najjednostavnije rešenje.
>> Naravno da ne bih. Ali uvek ima onih koji misle da vredi poku-
>> sati. Neki su pokusali na Kosovu, doduse jos ne vesaju o bandere,
>> ali ne mislim da se iko sad oseca bezbednije. Ko se boji taj preti.
Mislim da primer Kosova ide meni u "prilog"? Kada bi se i tamo ljudi počeli
vešati na bandere, :((( ne verujem da bi to pomoglo "smirivanju situacije".
NAPROTIV! To bi bilo samo zapaljivanje fitilja. Kada bi to radilo bilo gde
drugde u Srbiji, posledice bi bile ipak manje. (?) Dakle, tamo gde vredi
zaplašiti zaplašenog, postupa se surovo, a gde ima otpora prilazi se oprezno.
(Nije baš uvek tako, ali je najčešče.)
svet.316djovicevic,
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 91 17:48 +0200
<from> RWERMAN@HUJIVMS
Subject: RE: shalom
Tuesday 29 January
Are we Safe AFTER an Attack?
Last night, while watching the main news summary of the day
on TV - Is this repeated timing to be understood as a critical
comment on the News broadcasts? - we had, at 21:08, another
alarm, with both the screen showing the now familiar medallion
bearing the warning in multiple languages and a siren heard
outside. We hurried to the hopefully - We still ŇThank God!■
have not tested its efficacy. - gas-proof room, put on our masks,
seal the door, turn on the transistor radio. The announcer tells
us that all Israel is required to go to the sealed rooms, put on
gas masks and listen to the radio. At 21:16, Nahman Ňpronounced
Nachman■ Shai, the Army spokesman Ňsee below■ tells us that we
have been fired on, but that the South Ňnot including Jerusalem■
and the North Ňnot including Haifa and Acre■ are now free to
remove their masks and leave the sealed rooms. At 9:20 we hear
Shai tell us that Jerusalem, Haifa and Acre are no longer in
danger.
Hungry for news, I turn on my terminal, now in the sealed
room and, with my modem operating, I connect up to my computer
and turn on IRC, a protocol which connects me to the Internet
Relay Network, where I can always find 100 to 200 or more
computer freaks from places as far away as Korea, Japan,
Australia, Europe, and the States, chatting or waiting for
someone to "talk" to them online Ňmarvel of the technological
revolution■. I quickly ask for a list of current Israeli users
and locate one in Ramat Gan ŇGreater Tel Aviv, and the object of
at least 2 attacks, with 11 buildings completely destroyed and
1600 apartments damaged■ and Haifa and ask each if anything has
happened. Nati, from Haifa, writes to me that he has heard a
soft boom and that there was some brief disturbance in TV and
radio reception there. Ely, from Ramat Gan, says that all is
quiet there.
At 21:39, inhabitants of Greater Tel Aviv are instructed
to remove their gas masks but to remain in their rooms. Seconds
later a general all-clear is announced. At 22:02, we hear that
the attack consisted only of conventional weapons. Much later,
we are told that the single missile fired at us landed - No
Patriots were fired, it seems. Why? Because the missile
descended too far from the coast, where the Patriots are? - very
close to the Green line, the pre-1967 border, separating Israel
and Jordan, and now separating Israel from the Occupied
Territories. The missile produced damage to property in Arab
villages on both sides of the Line; luckily, nobody was hurt.
A popular sport among the Arabs of the Occupied Territories
these past two weeks has been to stand on the roofs of their
homes and cheer and wave, encouraging passing missiles eastwards,
towards the centers of Jewish settlement. I would suspect that
this activity will now stop, with the Palestinian Arabs joining
us in sealed rooms. When Saddam Hussein was interviewed before
the war and questioned about the possibility of hitting Arabs if
he were to attack Israel, he replied that he will not have time
to sort out the pebbles among the dried lentils. We again see
that he meant what he said. Now, the Palestinian Arabs who have
supported him so enthusiastically until now can also see that.
A pattern to the attacks has emerged and we act - with
reservations - as if these patterns are real and can be counted
on. One pattern is that there are no attacks in the daytime; so
we act more freely and with less care in the daytime. Another
that is now clear is that there is only one attack each night.
Even the one double attack that came was characterized by the
firing of two groups of missiles separated by only 20 minutes,
for our purposes not really different from a single attack. Why
is the validiy of this pattern of such importance? Because it
relates to the problem of sleep that has become so prevalent;
even the most hardened citizens of the Tel Aviv and Haifa areas
report difficulties in sleeping. Not only does this sleep
disorder reflect the relatively high level of anxiety prevalent,
it also, at least partly, is related to a real fear of missing
the alarm when it is sounded.
It has therefore become important to discuss this pattern,
to see if others believe it. Can one trust it? Are we really
safe AFTER an attack? Will the Iraqis remember that they have
had their one attack this night? These questions are now central
to our thoughts and the answers we adapt will help determine the
success of our getting a good night's sleep, which seems so
important to us now, or at least to getting even a fair night's
sleep.
We are now given instructions on recognizing poison gas
attacks from the symptoms produced. These are: 1■ Generalized
production of watery secretions; on the skin, tears; 2■ Strange
movements or no movement at all; 3■ Difficulties with breathing.
Some of these symptoms are clearly symptoms that can be
seen in hysteria or with severe anxiety. But it is better to be
safe than smart at times like these. We are told that the
medications available against poison gas work very well and that
it is imperative to bring the sticken individual with any of
these symptoms to a hospital immediately. We are reassured that
stories of a new poisom gas that penetrates gas masks is pure
fiction; that the combination of a gas mask and a sealed room
provides 100% protection.
Turkey has also been threatened by Saddam Hussein and the
threat of poison gas attacks is being taken very seriously in
Southern Turkey, bordering on Iraq, at least partially because of
the largely Kurdistani population there. Kurds will not easily
forget how a village of 5000 Kurds in northern Iran was wiped out
by Saddam Hussein's poison gas. Although gas masks are not
available there, they have produced sealed, gas-proof rooms. The
TV pictures are not reassuring; the suddenly very high price of
plastic curtaining has forced families to use substitutes which
can not possibly be effective, such as blankets, to shield their
windows and doors. Some depressing effects of this activity are
also reported: families dying of suffocation after sealing the
room but leaving an oven burning within.
*****************************
My wife is an inveterate and indefatigable matchmaker; for
her, the sight of an unmarried man - marriage is still the most
common mode here - is like a red flag to a bull. Well, there is
a certain young man, bright and sensitive and - above all -
unmarried. She has finally found the perfect girl for him,
bright and good looking. And they both agreed to meet. So far
so good.
My wife finally got a report on the meeting; they were
sitting in a popular Jerusalem cafe, having onion soup, when the
alarm went off. They spent the next hour huddled against the
wall in the cafe's sealed room, together with the other customers
and the employees of the cafe, including some Arabs working in
the kitchen. A new form of social activity.
Oh? What happened? They seem to like one another.
*****************************
Brigadier General Nahman Shai, the new Army spokesman, is
now a national hero, the subject of long reports in all of last
Friday's - the weekend here; there are no newspapers on Saturday
- papers. He came to our general attention on that memorable
Thursday night of the first attack, almost two weeks ago. The
initial radio instructions were characterized by unclarity, a
slight sense of panic and no sense of authority and knowledge.
Until Shai came on the air; his soft voice registered concern and
knowledge and that impression has persisted. The news reporters
have improved immensely, are now models of calm and clarity, but
the whole country waits for our Nahman. When he speaks of
allowing children not to be masked if they are panicky, he speaks
of his own 5 year old.
Usually, at least in the early stages of an alarm, he
offers no hard information other than telling us it is a real
attack and not a false alarm - there have been any number of
these, usually local and reflecting both nervous and inept
fingers as well as technical problems - and that we are to enter
the sealed rooms and don our masks. But we know that the
information that he will eventually give us will be accurate - if
sparse - and meanwhile all Israel continues to love Nahman.
He is a thin, bespectacled young man - younger looking than
his 44 years - in an Army uniform who speaks with a soft voice
that radiates certainty - or certainty to come - and confidence.
He bears some superficial resemblance to Pete Mitchell, the
Pentagon spokesman, but makes a much softer impression; he is
both less incisive and less quick in his responses. None-the-
less, Nahman Shai continues to radiate believability and remains
our hero, at least for the time being.
****************************************
In response to my questioning Aluf ŇGeneral■ Shomron's
appearance on TV to publicly announce a 90% level of support for
the policy of restraint, one of my readers reasonably points out
that he might have been saying something like "We are doing what
we have to do, and thank you (or at least most of you) for
agreeing."
I stand corrected; but it would have been better - if that
was his intention - that he had said it explicitly.
__Bob Werman
rwerman@hujivms
Jerusalem
svet.317djovicevic,
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 91 20:20 +0200
<from> RWERMAN@HUJIVMS
Subject: RE: shalom
Wednesday, T'u b'shvat, 30 January
After the War
We had no alarm last night; at 3 AM I finally - in a
state of exhaustion - went to sleep; I slept three hours.
Waiting for the siren.
Waiting for the other shoe to drop, waiting for the
SCUDs to reach us from Iraq has become a national sport.
You finally get to sleep at some hour early in the morning;
the second Army radio channel, the one that is silent at
night UNLESS there is an alarm, set at high volume, so
that you will not miss the siren. At 6:00 AM, the radio
starts blaring the regular morning broadcast and you are
shocked into the semi-awake state that will last all day.
These are not, however, normal times and 6:00 AM is just
too early.
Today is T'u b'shvat, the New Year for trees; we are
used to plant trees today. We also have parties where we
drink white and red wines and eat dried fruit. Usually, not
this year. Our minds and hearts are elsewhere. These are
not normal times.
Someone writes to suggest a fitting "punishment" for
those strange Jews - E. Alexander calls them "Arafat's Jews" -
who are so active in movements that oppose every action of
Israel, those who are sure that Israel is so intrinsically bad
that any action - even seemingly good - of Israel's must be
condemned. These same perverse Jews seem also to be convinced
that any action of the PLO - even the most heinous - should be
excused because of the suffering the Palestinian Arabs have
undergone Ňeven that which is not our fault at all■. The
"punishment" is to plant a tree in Israel in their name and to
mail them a certificate of the "gift". A truly mild punishment,
so gentle, perhaps much too gentle. He only regrets, he contin-
ues, that he would not be able to see their faces when they read
the certificates.
I recall the wanton destruction by fire of 8000 trees in
the Carmel forest last year. I presume the Arabs who lit the
fire considered the trees to be Jewish trees.
The flight of 100 of the best Iraqi aircraft to Iran is
particularly disturbing. These aircraft will be spared the
bombings of the coalition and this frightens us, now that we
know that we are indeed high on the Iraqi agenda; that more
SCUDS - by one - have been fired at us than at Saudi Arabia,
where the coalition forces are mainly based. The obvious col-
lusion of Iran in this flight for preservation of the Iraqi
aircraft adds an other element of uncertainty. We speculate on
the meaning of this flight; none of the scenarios are encourag-
ing, from the Israeli point of view.
The coalition views the picture differently; from their
point of view, the straight forward, pragmatic conclusion is
operative - these planes have been removed from the war scene,
guaranteeing coalition air supremacy. This difference in view-
point indicates that Israel and the coalition may have very
different goals in the present conflict and raises the issue of
what, exactly, are the minimal goals for the coalition. Since
Israel is a neutral, except in the eyes of Saddam Hussein and
his supporters, both in Iraq and elsewhere, it is not strange
that our goals should be somewhat different from those of the
USA and its coalition partners in this conflict.
There is little doubt that the death of Saddam Hussein,
the destruction of the Iraqi military machine, and even strip-
ping the ruling minority party, the Bath, of power would please
President Bush, and perhaps his partners as well, even Arabs -
President Mubarak of Egypt, for one. But these do not appear
to be goals that must be obtained in order to satisfy the coa-
lition, always worried about the ephemeral nature of home sup-
port for so distant a war, particularly if the price in casual-
ties is too high and if the war continues behind the brief
attention span that characterizes mass opinion. The added
burden in real cost must also be taken into account; Britain,
already burdened by a recession,is now anxiously debating the
cost of the war and where the money to pay for it will come from.
What then are the minimal goals that the US and its coa-
lition powers accept? There is good reason to believe that if
necessary - read: wavering home support - Iraqi withdrawal from
Kuwait and paying some sort of fine will be sufficient. It is
clear that the damage to the country's resources and supply
lines, heavy equipment and armament will prevent Iraq from
entering into another similar adventure for some reasonably
long time. This worst case goal, however, cannot be accept-
able to Israel, which of course has no say in the matter.
Israel's goal - of necessity - includes destruction of
both Iraq's long range missiles and their launchers and the air-
force, the sources of Iraq's capability of attacking Israel.
In addition, Israel can not rest unless Saddam Hussein is eli-
minated Ňkilled, imprisoned for life, permanently exiled -
preferably the first, the only irreversible method among these■;
we remember too well the reemergence of Nasser after his dramatic
resignation speech in the aftermath of Egypt's defeat by Israel
in the Six Day War.
The scenario that sends chills down our spines is one that
begins after the war, with Saddam Hussein and his airforce - more
than 700 planes - intact. A call by a postwar Iraq, with Saddam
Hussein at its head, for a Holy War of all Moslem nations, includ-
ing Iran - a long time leader in the Islamic campaign to destroy
Israel - as well as the Arab states in the region, lead by Syria
and financed by Saudi Arabia and the oil-rich Emirates is a reason-
able possibility. The blow to Arab pride that will follow any suit
for peace by Saddam Hussein, even with Arabic nations represented
in the coalition, is predictable; Muslim right-wing elements, in
Iran and even among the Arab nations in the coalition continue to
undermine cooperation with the Western powers in the fight against
Iraq. Syrian, Jordanese and Lebonese newpapers do not hesitate to
suggest that the war is really between Israel and Islam, with
America and its partners fighting for Israel.
A combined Arab air assault on Israel, with the participation
of an almost intact Iraqi airforce may or may not be repulsed by
Israel; but there is little reason to doubt that the cost in lives
and property damage will provide - even in the best case - cause for
Jewish tears for generations to come. Coalition forces will probably
be far from the scene by that time; even if not, why would they
interfere?
Are these nightmares unwarranted?
Can we rely on Israel's new popularity to galvanize world-wide
support to prevent such an attack by the Muslim airforces?
As a Jew, and as an Israeli, I am suspicious of our newly
gained popularity. As pleasant as it is to be the sudden recipient
of such welcome warmth and approval - after so long a time in the
cold, after so much disapproval - from the nations of the world,
something is wrong. In view of our recent history all the expres-
sions of admiration for our restraint do not quite ring true.
The Pope himself has even joined in the chorus of praise,
although his court, the Vatican, still does not recognize Israel's
existence.
Why is our popularity dependent on our suffering loss? Is
this the requirement for winning the approval of other nations?
Or are other nations judged by different rules, by their actions
and inactions alone? When the Israeli Airforce attacked and
destroyed Tamuz, the Iraqi nuclear reactor at Ossirak - whose
French nuclear engineers NOW freely admit was built for military
purposes alone - we were condemned by all. Were we better off,
some ask, with the disfavor of the world weighing heavily upon us,
with confidence in our being in the right and our ability to
defend ourselves? Better off than today, with our dead, our
wounded, our homeless, with the status of an obedient client
state and the favor of the world?
Is our blood, we ask in Israel, worth the favor of the world?
And how ephemeral is this favor? Will it continue when we stop
bleeding? Will it continue if we finally act to defend ourselves?
And even if we behave, bleed silently, show restraint, we ask,
how long will the favor we have found last? The very same politi-
cians and governments that praise us so fulsomely now were those
that condemned us, placed economic sanctions on us, when was it?
Why, only yesterday. Why are we to trust them now?
Today, in a rush to appease the Arab nations, to prevent
premature dissolution of the coalition, just as our restraint is
meant to do, the US and Russia announced - without consulting us -
that they will lead a conference to settle the Middle East problems
immediately after the successful resolution of the Persian Gulf
crisis. What do they mean by this? I do not know. But the Muslim
states in this region will understand it as a promise to create a
Palestinian state, all our objections not withstanding. And they
will not allow any other interpretation.
Did our restraint earn us the right to consultation before
making so untimely - for us - a decision and announcement? No,
not even that.
No linkage, we were promised. The Iraqi conquest of Kuwait
is not linked to the Palestinian problem, we were told. Has Saddam
Hussein already won one victory, so early in the war?
So to what end do we toil? The PLO, despite its committment
to and support of Saddam Hussein is to be punished by having its
dream realized. And Israel, after behaving "well," showing restraint,
absorbing loss to life and property quietly, will be rewarded by
being forced to swallow the poison we fear most. Is there any
question that we have a right to be skeptical?
Moreover, the position we find ourselves in, characterized by
complete dependence on the US - only some of the military information
obtained by satellites shared, refusal to give Israel aircraft identi-
fication codes to prevent clashes with coalition aircraft - and
restraint where we would usually punish attacks on us, is both un-
natural and perhaps dangerous as well. We have invested heavily over
the years, since the founding of our state, in the development and
strenghthening of our ability to defend ourselves. Our environment
is hostile; all the surrounding nations - both those in the coalition
and those opposed to it - have signed a compact to root us out of the
Middle East, to destroy us.
It appears that our good behavior has brought us one step closer
to realization of the Arab/Muslim goal to rid themselves of us.
This is too heavy a price; we will not remain passive.
****************************
I have been asked if this is a good war? I do not think that
there is such a thing as a good war. War is bad. Killing can only
be justified to prevent wanton murder. ŇBy the way, the seventh
commandment - in the original Hebrew - does not read "Thou shalt not
kill" as it is usually rendered, but "Thou shalt not murder."■
That is the case with this war; it is a justifiable war, born out of
necessity. Out of the need to prevent wanton murder.
__Bob Werman
rwerman@hujivms
Jerusalem
svet.318dpozaric,
****************
:))) Da zaista, nisam ni pomislio. Međutim, ne verujem da sam ja jedini baš
imao ujaka koji je bio rodoljub a da nije bio komunista? Možda još neko može
pomoći? Do sada se to nije smelo ni reći a do nedavno smo i događaje od 27.
marta pripisivali komunistima. (Preporučujem da se obavezno pročita nedavno
izašla knjiga o tome.)
****************
Susjedova (2 kuće od mene) cijela obitelj je bila u partizanima i
dugo (uspješno) djelovala iako nitko od njih nije bio ni u KPJ ni u
SKOJ-u. Naravno, na stranu to što su oni prema komunistima
*automatski* bili komunisti i skojevci.
Da stvar bude u stilu crnog humora, borili su se protiv Talijana i
Nijemaca, da bi na kraju rata (nekoliko dana prije, a otac familije 2
dana nakon završetka rata) bili poklani od četnika :(((
Općenito, u selima iz kojeg su porijeklom moji roditelji (i okolici)
je komunistički pokret bio nejak, slobodno se to može reći, ali su
gotovo sva djeca i mlađi starci bili gerila.
Mnogo je njih prepoznato u seriji "Kapelski kresovi", iako je radnja
koja je tamo prikazana vrlo malo slična stvarnosti.
DP
svet.319boban,
> Pa, ja bi vise voleo da mom "neprijatelju" neko *obecava* oruzje
> nego da mu ga stvarno daje/prodaje. Ako bi ti vise voleo obrnutu
> varijantu, ja tu nemam komentara.
Kada mom "neprijatelju" neko obecava oruzje u trenutku kad se
ovaj sprema na odluku da li da upotrebi oruzje (ono koje vec ima)
ili ne, onda mu on daje moralnu i politicku podrsku, stavise prepo-
ruku, cak ako obecanje i ne ispuni. To obecanje je trebalo da bude
oruzje, a ne americke puske. Ja licno ne verujem da bi ga bilo tako
lako ispuniti.
Inace, nisam znao da moram da se opredelim izmedju ove dve mo-
gucnosti. Da te umirim: ne bih vise voleo obrnutu varijantu. Cemu
tolika rezignacija?
svet.320dejanr,
I još malo "ratne" diskusije sa PPC BBS-a...
Date: 01-27-91 (21:30) Number: 1505
To: ALL Refer#: NONE
From: JOHN CARNAGHIE Read: HAS REPLIES
Subj: NUCLEAR WEAPONS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Would it be appropriate to Nuke Iraq?
If not now, what actions by Iraq would make testing a couple of Enhanced
Radiation Tomahawk warheads over Bagdad appropriate?
Date: 01-28-91 (00:34) Number: 1506
To: JOHN CARNAGHIE Refer#: 1505
From: BOB CHILDRESS Read: NO
Subj: NUCLEAR WEAPONS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
John,
I have refered to making Iraq the glass capital of the world, in a
tong in cheek manner. If you take sand and add intense heat you get
glass. What else could supply the intense heat?
Really the only argument for nuclear weapons is that they would end
the war. The big argument against them is the ecological damage that
would be done, and the national image. The ecological issue may soon
be invalid, since the ecological damage of continuing the war may prove
to be worse.
BOB
Date: 01-29-91 (23:16) Number: 1510
To: JOHN CARNAGHIE Refer#: 1505
From: SYSOP Read: NO
Subj: NUCLEAR WEAPONS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
I do not think that nuclear weapons would be appropriate on Iraq. What
kind of target would require a nuclear strike? I think that we are
doing just fine with conventional bombing and precision guided
munitions. The saddemizers are taking all the hits and our causualties
are very low; this I like!
As the air war progresses, all of the high value targets will be taken
out. Today's live from Baghdad CNN show was interrupted by an air raid.
The camera panned the skyline and it appeared that there was only one
tenth the anti aircraft fire that was present on war day 1. Saddem has
already lost a lot of capability. Eventually, there will be no more
high value targets, and we will just kill anything that moves. THis
will make it very difficult for Saddem to resupply his troops.
As I see it, we must try to avoid a ground war, unless it is Saddem
coming out of his fortified positions to attack us. Reason: he is VERY
good at mine laying. We will take a lot of casualties in any assault on
his positions. Saddem has already said that the anti war protesters
here are very encouraging to him; high casualties would serve the anti
war cause.
Date: 01-29-91 (23:18) Number: 1511
To: BOB CHILDRESS Refer#: 1506
From: SYSOP Read: 01-30-91 (00:01)
Subj: NUCLEAR WEAPONS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
I think that nuclear weapons could be used to clean up the environmental
damage caused by the oil spill. For example, a number of nukes, placed
correctly over the gulf, could vaporize the oil spill that Saddem has
caused.
svet.321bojt,
Evo da se i ja polako uključim u ovu diskusiju (doduše na pogrešnom
mestu)
>> Sto se tice tvrdnje da su pokret otpora cinili uglavnom komunisti,
>> jedan ujak nije dovoljan kontraprimer.
Otpor koji je nastao posle okupacije bio je pre svega skoro
potpuno spontan i isključivo patriotskog a ne ideološkog
karaktera. U velikom broju mesta u kojima je podignut ustanak za
komuniste nisu bili ni čuli. Inspirativan je primer čuvenog odreda
Slaviše Vajnera - žiče u kome nije bilo nijednog komuniste (čak su
mnogi borci nosili i kokarde). Razumljivo je da su se komunisti,
kao pobednici, svime time okitili i u budućnosti se energično
trudili da stvore sliku kako su zapravo jedino oni i pružali
otpor. Postoje ozbiljne sumnje da je čuveni proglas KPJ u kojem se
narod poziva na ustanak nastao znatno kasnije, kada se već skoro
cela Srbija podigla.
U svemu tome ima dosta logike. Da su ovaj prostor umesto Rusa
oslobodili Englezi i Amerikanci, čitav taj deo istorije bi sada bio
okrenut tumbe (kao i nastavak, da smo bili te sreće...)
svet.322djovicevic,
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 91 12:58:31 CST
From: cdp!mideastdesk@SGI.COM
Subject: URGENT APPEAL FROM JERUSALEM
Peace Media Service in Holland received the following fax
February 3 from the Jerusalem-based Palestinian Center for the
Study of Nonviolence and Beit Noah, a pacifist center also in
Jerusalem:
URGENT .... URGENT .... URGENT .... URGENT ....
AN APPEAL TO NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL MEDICAL AND HEALTH
ORGANIZATIONS, GOVERNMENTS OF THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITY and THE
UNITED STATES and THE SOVIET UNION...
We urge the international community to put pressure on the
Israeli government:
1) To lift the 24 hour curfew which has been imposed on all the
Occupied Territories since mid-January, which has completely
disrupted the social, economical, health, agricultural, and
educational intra-structure of the Palestinian people. They are
now facing a severe shortage of money to buy food and other basic
necessities during the one to three hours the curfew is lifted
now and then. Shortage of food is already existent in many
places, especially refugee camps and some villages. Several cases
of death were caused by lack of emergency medical care and
obstruction imposed by the soldiers.
2) To distribute gas masks to the whole population including
children. Up to now, in spite of the information passed in the
media, only about 25,000 gas masks have been distributed in the
Occupied Territories and only for adults over 15 years old.
**We ask: How can parents wear their gas masks in case of real
chemical attack if their children are unprotected?**
Already some European governments have responded to the appeal of
the NGOs. Canada has sent 10,000 masks, which is very little
compared to the need of the whole population which is over
1,000,000.
3) The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has been
helping, but does not dare to use its mandate completely because
of its "delicate" relationship with the Israeli government.
4) According to rumors circulating since the beginning of January
and more recently according to BBC news, the Palestinian
prisoners of the detention camp of Ketziot in the Negev (ANSAR
111) will be transferred to DIMONA (nuclear plant where Israel is
keeping some of its nuclear warheads). The ICRC is investigating.
The whole international community rightfully expressed its
disapproval and horror when Saddam Hussein used hostages, and now
prisoners of war, and human shields. We have the right to expect
that the international community will do the same when Israel is
prepared to use the same method with Palestinians. We hope it
will be prevented from doing so.
5) Hospitals: no permission has been delivered to personnel to
move around (cleaners, nurses, administrative employees) and to
reach the hospitals or villages where they work. Permission has
been applied for through the ICRC, but it was refused.
Only 20 percent of the medical personnel can move, and that is
only doctors. In many villages there is lack of accessibility to
medical help. Preventive care is completely paralysed and
emergency help is obstructed by the army. This includes medical
care against epidemics, contagion, and regular checking of
pregnancies.
6) There has been a great emotional wave of sympathy raised in
the world by the civilian casualties in Israel after the Iraqi
attacks. Sanctions have been lifted by the European community and
money is pouring in from European countries and the United
States.
Saddam Hussein has been demonized to the point of absurdity and
most people rely on the information passed in the media, which is
cleverly manipulated to justify the intervention of the
International Coalition.
We also feel sorrow and sympathy for the innocent victims of
Israel.
But who is denouncing the weekly air raids perpetrated by Israel
in Lebanon, each time causing enormous material damage and many
casualties and leaving many families homeless?
Who is denouncing the harsh and cruel repressive measures taken
in the Occupied Territories by Israel, making daily casualties,
demolishing homes, uprooting trees, sending thousands in
detention, deporting, beating, torturing, killing, confiscating
land, taking water, and restricting the people's freedom in
movement and travelling abroad?
When will the international community practice justice according
to the Geneva Convention and not according to Western interests?
We, as members of the international community living in Israel-
Palestine for many years feel outraged by the double standard
applied in this region. We are witnessing every day injustices
against people who are deprived of their basic human rights.
This is enough! We want action NOW!
We are asking the international community to put pressure on the
concerned parties to convey an international peace conference to
solve all these problems in securing the integrity of the borders
and the welfare and human rights of all the people in the region,
and in accepting to make compromises with Iraq and other Arab
states to stop the destruction and the bloodshed in the gulf
which is devastating for the Iraqi people and adds tens of
thousands of refugees to the hundreds of thousands already
existing.
signed:
Nafes Assaily, for the Palestinian Center for the Study of
Nonviolence, East Jerusalem (Box 20999, Jerusalem 894604; tel 2:
28.50.61)
Yvette Naal for Beit Noah, East Jerusalem (18 HaNevi'im, Musrara,
Jerusalem 97203; tel 2: 287250)
ŇPeace Media Service, Holland/gn.peacemedia■
svet.323dejanr,
Subject: The Ultimate Aloneness of Israel
Sunday, 17 February
The Ultimate Aloneness of Israel
Things are getting back to normal. The few days - and
even weeks - when all the good guys were wearing white cowboy
suits and working together against the bandits in black may be
slipping away from us. The originally reluctant members of
the coalition once again appear reluctant; the theme that was
initially common to the activist members of the coalition as
well as to the minimalists - stopping Saddam Hussein - no
longer appears to be a sufficient bond to unite all members of
the coalition. There are those, like Russia and some of the
Arab members of the coalition, who see Saddam Hussein's
conditional agreement to withdraw from Kuwait, announced on
Friday, as real and providing a basis for negotiation.
France - relatively uncommitted even at the beginning -
is again wavering. After initial reluctance to participate
actively, France joined in the bombings with some appetite but
now, who knows? And France is not alone.
Some of the allies think that Saddam Hussein's
humiliating terms for withdrawal [Including reparations for
damage done to Iraq; withdrawal of foreign troops from the
Persian Gulf; forcing Israel to withdraw from the administered
territories] should be accepted; others reject them for what
they are - a cheap trick, with publicity as its aim,
attempting to create a picture of Iraqi willingness to
negotiate as opposed to the intransigence of the US and its
allies.
Amazing to me is that there is one area of agreement that
still binds the allies together, a desire to get Israel to
enfranchise a Palestinian state. Even more amazing to me is
that this purpose is shared by the other side, by Iraq. And by
the PLO, hero of this new drama whose staging is actively being
prepared backstage, the new production slated to follow the
Persian Gulf War. The same producer, the US, is hoping to have
one success follow another. The PLO, the accepted voice of the
Palestinians in the world, in the UN [where Yassar Arafat is
allowed to hold forth, gun in hand], in the Vatican [Which
accepts the PLO but does not yet recognize Israel] is to be
rewarded for its support of Saddam Hussein by getting the
leading role. Israel, for its restraint, praised by all, will
be the villain again - a matter of type casting.
Hollywood, Hollywood. A wonderful town.
But while there seems to be some confusion as to whether
or not the Iraqis are responsible for the bombings and
casualties that country has suffered, there is little doubt in
anyone's mind that Israel is guilty of some great crime and
must be punished.
The US State Department has shown great irritability in
response to Israeli complaints that the State Department has
blocked Israeli bidding for defense contracts that Congress
has approved, for ignoring the promise given to provide
guarantees for an Israeli loan to deal with the problems of
absorbing the great Russian immigration that has already
arrived here and continues to stream in our direction, for
asking why non-coalition countries are given licences to
purchase a super-computer while Israel is denied that right.
Irritability, yes. Denial, no. Correction, no. These
requests of Israel will not be honored - unless. Israel as
a friendly nation or even ally, as a fellow sufferer in the
war, for showing restraint at the specific request of the State
Department is to be bent at the rack. Every bit of ammunition
available will be used to force Israel to enfranchise a
Palestinian state in its midst. No, none of Israel's requests
is enough. So let us use them all together to force the
Palestinian state down Israel's throat after the Persian Gulf
War is over.
The streets of Moscow are filmed with a large procession
of Russians carrying placards inscribed in red and black paint
denouncing the Jews in general, and Israel in particular. No
Jews in the government, say the signs. What Jews? It makes
no difference that there are no Jews; perhaps Gorbechov is
thinking of converting. No fighting a Jewish war, read the
posters. What Jewish war? Presumably this proclamation is
responsive to Saddam Hussein's claim that Israel is Iraq's real
opponent in the Persian Gulf war and that the coalition is
merely doing Israel's fighting for her. And the conservative
and military elements in the Soviet Union are applying pressure
to get out of the Persian Gulf. The government is eager to
accept Saddam Hussein's conditions as a basis for negotiation -
if he would only relax them a bit. They need to end their
participation in the War to thwart the anti-perestroika forces.
The Muslim states in the USSR are interested in gaining
their independence. They fight the central government on any
issue possible; given their religious identity, it is only
natural for them too to support the new Saladin, the hope of
Muslim regeneration. And they do.
In the face of this backlash, in the face of growing
and outspoken anti-semitism in the USSR, it is also no surprise
that Russian Jews continue to flow into missile-attacked
Israel. The economics of the move are simple. It is safer for
a Jew to be in Israel now than in today's Russia.
The foreign minister of the USSR and the US Secretary of
State - at their very first meeting after the onset of
hostilities in the Persian Gulf - rush to announce jointly the
importance of settling the Palestinian problem immediately
after the Persian Gulf crisis is resolved. There is nothing
more important on their agendas. The first order of business -
on the very day the war ends, I presume - will be to punish
Israel for cooperating with the US and its coalition allies and
reward the Palestinians for their unflinching support of ....
Of whom? Of Saddam Hussein.
Syrian and Moroccan troops in Saudi Arabia, members of
the coalition in good standing, break out in hurrahs of joy and
triumph and fire automatic weapons into the air on hearing that
Iraqi Scuds land in Israeli cities. A celebration is a
celebration - and cannons are also fired. Finally a Saudi force
has to be sent to calm them down. More than 100 Syrian officers
have been arrested following their outspoken criticism of Syrian
involvement on the US side in the Gulf War. They demand to be
returned to Syria. They, too, know that Israel is the real
enemy.
There is also the Arab Jihad, an interesting organization
with a strong Palestinian element, headed by Sheik Assad Tamini,
a former resident of the Hebron region in Israel. He was
expelled a good number of years ago for fomenting riot and
revolution and now lives in Jordan. It is frightening to listen
to him on TV; he is an avuncular and sweet looking man who
speaks softly; no histrionics for him. And in a soft voice he
enunciates legions of hate. He now threatens to assassinate
President Mubarak of Egypt, "just as we killed Sadat." "Hussani
Mubarak," he continues,"has sold his his soul to the Americans
and he too will die." He threatens all members of the coalition
with acts of terrorism. But the chief object of his animosity
is Israel and the Jews. "We must kill all the Jews," Tamini
says, "they have always been the source of mankind's troubles.
Hitler saw us as firm allies against Zionism. We would like the
unified Germany to help us now."
Clearly, as all nations [almost all?] are agreed, Israel is
guilty of crimes against mankind. Or at least against the
Palestinians. And must pay.
What is this great crime that Israel is guilty of? I have
neither the time nor space to tell it all here; but in brief the
recent history [one can go back to the crucifixion or earlier,
too, but ...] of our "crime" began in November 1947 when the UN
decided to divide the British Mandate in Palestine into two
countries, one Arab, one Jewish. Lead by the Palestinian leader
and former ally of Hitler, the Mufti of Jerusalem, within and by
five Arab states without, five Arab armies invaded the new Israel
with the explicit purpose of destroying her. Arab leaders told
Palestinians to leave their homes for a short time to clear the
field for the invading armies and a great number did, creating
the refugee problem which still exists. Badly outnumbered and
out-gunned, the Israelis managed to stave off the attack, but
not before Jordan seized the West Bank and East Jerusalem and
Egypt seized Gaza.
In 1967, Egypt and Syria once again decided to eliminate
Israel from the map of the Middle East [CNN has done the work
for the Arabs; the name Israel does not appear on the CNN map
of the Middle East.]. Israel, arming for the struggle warned
Jordan to stay out of the conflict. Jordan did not accept the
warning and when the dust of battle cleared, Israel had captured
East Jerusalem and the West Bank from the Jordanians, the Golan
Heights from Syria, and Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt.
Israel hoped to return some of these territories in exchange for
peace. Only Egypt has agreed to deal with Israel and following
the Camp David agreements, received Sinai back [Egypt refused to
take back Gaza, a constant source of trouble.]
Other than Egypt, which maintains correct but not friendly
relations with Israel and exchanges Ambassadors with us, none of
the Arab nations recognize the existence of Israel or is willing
to sign a peace treaty with her. That is - in a nutshell -
Israel's crime.
The Palestinians have been the great losers throughout,
not without their own fault. But the Arab nations which have
absorbed them have hardly been outstanding in helping them,
leaving many in refugee camps without work for years - in
Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon. The reasons for this include both
indifference to Palestinian suffering and use of their poverty
as a political football to arouse the sympathy of the world.
The Palestinians [Like Sheik Tamini, one of them] want Israel
out of the Middle East; they [sometimes] say that they are
willing to live in peace with us - but the organizational
charter of their most representative political body includes a
paragraph on the necessity for exterminating Israel.
Forgive us for our opacity and what seems like cruelty.
But we are not willing to allow armed enemies bent on our
destruction to live in our midst; we are worried about the
short distance to our cities, we are worried about the ability
of countries like a still armed Iraq to march to within 10
miles of our coast, where they could cut the country in half.
Do not forgive us if it is not in your heart to. But we
will not commit suicide. That is not our style.
Meanwhile, under the threat of the Scuds, under the threat
of a poison gas attack, we stand mostly united, hoping for the
best and expecting the very worst.
__Bob Werman
rwerman@hujivms
Jerusalem
copyright 1991 USA. All rights reserved.
svet.324djovicevic,
The following is forwarded from the netnews newsgroup
talk.politics.mideast
from leisti@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: alt.desert-shield,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: A Letter from Baghdad
Date: 17 Feb 91 16:01:12 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki
A LETTER FROM BAGHDAD
The following is a translation from a letter published in Suomen
Kuvalehti, a Finnish weekly newsmagazine, on 15 February 1991.
The letter was written by an educated Iranian man, the father of
seven children. It was first brought to Amman, the capital of
Jordania, in two parts, and then mailed from there to the Finnish
friend of the Iranian man.
The letters were originally written in broken English. The
editors of the newsmagazine combined the letters, corrected the
language slightly and translated them into Finnish. The names of
people mentioned in the letter have been changed, and the names
of the sender and receiver omitted, for security reasons. I have
translated the letter back into English.
The ideas and opinions expressed in the letter do not necessarily
reflect those of myself or the University of Helsinki. I merely
seek to share this rare glimpse into life on the other side at
this moment.
Teemu Leisti U. of Helsinki, Finland leisti@cc.helsinki.fi
--------
A LETTER FROM BAGHDAD
The letter of an Iraqi father to a Finnish friend tells of
destruction and desperation in a closed nation.
---------
Dear friend,
I do not want to worry you by my letter, but now I have a good
chance -- maybe the last chance -- to get it out of the country,
now that our common friend Mohammed is leaving for Amman. -- I
know you are worried and are thinking of Iraq, though I presume
you know more than we do about events of the war on both sides.
However, you surely know nothing about what an ordinary resident
of Baghdad is experiencing at this time.
I have sent Amal and the children to the north, but I can get no
contact with them, because the telephones are not working. I
hope that they are safer there than here in Baghdad. Life here
is confused and dangerous, one never knows what will happen next.
Bomber planes are flying above us even now. The sirens are
wailing unceasingly. Wild dogs bark hysterically at them. They
are not getting used to it and are still afraid. I have seen
them bite people running away in fright. Is this turning into
the daily life one must get used to? In the last war few Iranian
bombs hit Baghdad. Now there are flying and exploding things all
above and around us. Nevertheless, on the radio it is said that
the damages are not great, there are not many dead, nothing is
hit; however, we hear explosions, we see fires, ruins, and blood.
The house of my neighbor's brother got hit. We tried to go
there, but it was tightly guarded; we had no business going in
there, not even my neighbor, who was worried about his brother.
He still knows nothing about what happened to the family. He has
gone through all the hospitals in the city, and because he cannot
find them, he hopes that they left the city before their house
was bombed. It would seem strange, because the brother would
surely have told him about leaving the city.
The news I tell you are all bad except for one thing. I cannot
find joy even in that one at the moment. I will tell it first:
Amal is pregnant. The calculated time for our eighth child is in
July. We hope, inshallah, God willing, that it is allowed to be
born in peacetime.
Last night we had "guests." Several soldiers burst inside with a
great noise. They said they were looking for Tareq, our oldest
son, who, they said, had deserted his military base. I know
nothing about the boy. Naturally he is afraid to come home,
because he is sure that our house is being watched. I was told
that if I cannot get him back on the front, I should send his
brother, the 17-year-old Omar, in his place. I said that Omar is
not home and that I did not know exactly where he was. They
promised to return in a couple of days. I had better be home and
have a "replacement" for Tareq.
I am glad that my family is away. I am almost glad for Tareq. I
expected him to desert. He never wanted to go to war, likewise
with many of his friends. There are thought to be about 100 000
deserters. The thought that he is hiding somewhere, that he is
cold and hungry, is almost driving me mad.
I cannot help him. Neither can I help your Kurd friend Faiq, who
was taken away a couple of days ago. His family asked me to
inquire about his disappearance, and through many convolutions
(because of my own past and my own "disappearances" I cannot
inquire myself, and had to put my friends to work). I found out
that he is in a prison near Baghdad with many other Kurds. They
are being charged with activities against the state: planning
their own Kurd state, the punishment for which can be death.
I would like to write to you about other, easier things, but
there are none at the moment. We try to live in the middle of
all this, the shops are sometimes open, we cook if we can, drink
when we can get water. We even laugh and tell jokes to each
other. Now and then I visit my workplace, but nothing much is
happening there. The offices are open irregularly, the schools
are closed. Everyone wants to be home and near their families,
if the families are still in the city. Unconfirmed rumors tell
about thousands of dead and injured, but no one knows anything
for certain.
I also have to tell you about Hamida, the little daughter of my
friend, for whom you drew those princesses and the picture of
your dog. Did you know that she eagerly studied English and was
saving money to come and see that dog of yours that lived inside
with you and whom no one was allowed to kick? -- You surely know
that water distribution in the city is not functioning properly.
We only get water for a small period a day and cannot use it for
washing. Hamida felt dirty and got the idea of washing herself
and her little brother in the Tigris. At the same time, they
drank water because of their thirst. Nothing happened to her
brother, but Hamida got a bad cold and got bacteria from the
dirty water, so that she is unable to keep food inside. In the
hospital there are no antibiotics which could cure her. Even if
there are, they are being saved for the soldiers. They wish that
small girls like Hamida will get better without medicine and with
God's help! Nevertheless, she is already only a shadow of her
former self.
Dear friend, tell, is our country accursed! Why are some
countries called holy and promised and they can do anything, and
some others are under a perpetual curse, there is no peace nor
justice for them and all their attempts to go forward fail?
I do not know what you people are told about our lives, I do not
know if you are even interested in it. We have a feeling here
that we're living in a bag with a small hole, and through that
hole is pushed that information which is thought to be needed in
the bag. Those who know English listen to BBC. The Arabian
broadcasts of Radio Monte Carlo are popular. They tell of
different things than our own papers and radio. We have no
electricity, except at random intervals, so those who own
batteryoperated radios are in a luckier position, as long as the
batteries last.
Television, when it works, shows demonstrations in which the
whole world is marching and demonstrating for us. They tell that
even in Europe and America people think of Saddam Hussein as a
great hero, whom only the governments hate. Many believe in
that.
We are promised that we will win the war. We listen to hours of
explanations of why America has no chances of winning.
The Peoples' Army fills the streets of Baghdad. They have
started to give out weapons to us, in case the Americans attack
into the city. Hate against the Americans is being fanned. The
more civilian buildings are bombed, the greater the hate grows.
At first there was belief in the humanity of the Americans, now
they are said to go after civilians, because they hate Arabs.
You notice that I talk of America, and do not mention the other
nations that have sent troops against us. Today the name of our
enemy is still America, but there are signs here that it may soon
be the West.
You once asked why we hate America, and you were answered that
because America only thinks of money and oil and because it helps
Israel, our enemy number one, and because American politicians
are bribed by their Jewish lobby....Now the whole West is being
united in one front.
I'm listening to the radio right now. It calls for all muslims
of the world to come together. "The war is being waged between
religion and technology. We are the religion, God is on our
side," it says. We are being prepared for a long war.
Everything that has happened on the battlefront up to now has
happened exactly according to plans. What has happened, then?
The radio tells that already in the first week, a couple of
hundred enemy planes were shot down. It also tells of American
soldiers who throw beer and wine bottles on the grave of the
prophet Muhammed. It tells of half-naked American girls sunning
on the beaches of Saudi Arabia. We are being exhorted to even
commit suicide, if we only can damage the Americans that way.
There is whispering here that there is a suicide group of about
one hundred that has managed to slip into the West through Turkey
and Yugoslavia.
We are being promised a war which the whole world will join. We
will get back our face which we lost almost a thousand years ago.
-- Too many want to believe in victory and an honor long sought
after. The causes for our failures are searched for in the West.
Is there no cause in ourselves and in our leaders, and in that we
have let ourselves be led in a wrong manner?
The war could have been prevented. The West, which thinks itself
wiser than we, should have known that an Arab cannot be told:
unconditionally, without negotiation, without bargaining. Saddam
was told to get out of Kuwait unconditionally. He would have
needed a back door, there should have been a concession
somewhere.
I want to add that Ismael Tatar, Saddam's personal physician, a
family member of whom you once met, has also disappeared. They
say he had diagnosed symptoms of schizophrenia in the president.
I have a feeling that fronts that have been quiet are becoming
louder than before. Defiance and resistance are growing against
the leadership of our country as fast as sympathy and solidarity
for it. People on both sides have started to talk louder and
more.
My friend, you see that I try to talk objectively about the
matters of my country. You know what I think myself, on which
side I will act for as long as I can.
My heart bleeds for my son. It already bleeds for things which
have not yet happened, but which seem to be ahead for the whole
of the nation.
I hope that you are well yourself.
Musa
svet.325djovicevic,
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 91 15:27 +0200
Ňfrom■ <RWERMAN@HUJIVMS> Bob Werman
Subject: Retreat
Friday, 22 February
Retreat
The skies have clouded; rain is approaching. We can tell,
from the quiet. Quiet has degrees in Jerusalem. There is a
special quiet for the hours before the rain here. And that quiet
is additive with the old quiet that is Jerusalem's and with the
quiet that has come to us lately, the quiet of anticipation.
None of the various forms of quiet detracts from any of the
others. It is not strange that noises add; why then should it be
strange that quiet can add with quiet?
It is still quite warm, after another night without a
Scud, a night shattered by the news from Russia.
The Iraqis have agreed to withdraw from Kuwait; they have
a number of conditions which will be difficult for the US to
accept, conditions which keep Saddam Hussein in power and
preserve the Iraqi war machine. Linkage is not mentioned;
undoubtedly the Iraqis have made a secret agreement with the
Russians in which the Soviets have promised to push vigorously
for a Middle East conference immediately after the withdrawal
from Kuwait.
Saddam Hussein now the great Arab hero he aspired to be.
What a frightening thought. But he lost, you say. Not by the
logic of the Middle East; Saddam Hussein took on whole world
and emerged intact -- a great victory for the Arabs; they will
fill their chests with pride.
(Not only in the Middle East. I remember being given
visiting cards in India which proudly displayed -- after the
name of the person -- "Cambridge; B.Sc, 19__, failed.")
We do not know which better, to accept Iraq's proposal
(Russia's proposal?) and stop all the blood shed or to open up
the Pandora's Box of Saddam Hussein as a hero with an almost
intact military machine, or at least one that can be rebuilt.
The latter option is clearly an invitation to disaster, not
only for Israel but for the West. But the cost of a ground
war in lives and maimed is a terrible thought.
A part of me says that the coalition should accept the
withdrawal and hope that things will work out. But is not this
type of wishful thinking just the sort of naivete that invites
tragedy and even disaster? Although they do reappear time
after time the three monkeys, See Nothing, Hear Nothing and Say
Nothing, have -- in evolutionary terms -- a low potential
survival level. And it is survival that we are talking about,
Israel's in the short run, the West's in the long run.
It may sound overly dramatic on my part saying that the
West's fate is in the balance. Dramatic? Yes. Foolish? I do
not think so. There are forces in the Arab world -- fed not
only by passion but also by hunger and poverty and lack of work
-- that are simmering and ready to boil. These forces are to a
large extent reactionary and fundamentalist, frustrated and
living on dreams of past glory and dreams of a not-so-distant
golden future.
The Iraqis have not hesitated to use poison gas against
the armed Iranians as well against the unarmed Kurds. Given
nuclear weapons -- and they were apparently not far from that --
what will they do? Or rather, what will they not hesitate to
do?
It is highly likely that we can expect violent
nationalistic reactions in the Islamic world no matter what the
outcome of the war. Initially these will be directed internally
but they are impelled by a vis a tergo, a force from behind, that
may push them outside the limits of the Islamic world. Even
without that, we must expect an unsettling of the rulers in many
of the countries in the area and a disruption of the balances
that allow cooperation and free trade with the West.
The violence will be directed both externally against the
US and -- to a lesser extent -- its coalition allies, and
internally against those rulers that sided with the West -- Egypt,
Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Morocco and Syria. None of these countries
is embarrassed to use force to suppress anti-governmental foment,
but there are limits to their abilities to stifle criticism. If
there is a major rallying of the population against the rulers,
the dissatisfied citizens will succeed in unseating them. Let a
popular revolution base fundamentalist Islam succeed in one
country in the Arab world and it will spread through these
countries like wildfire. Revolutionary spirits have been kindled
which will not be contained with ease.
We can expect that the leaders of the Arab partners in the
coalition will make efforts to demonstrate their allegiance to
the ambitions of the Arab world. The obvious and easiest way
open to them to prove their allegiance to the Arab dream is to
force a solution to the Palestinian problem. They will press the
US and other countries to call for an International Conference on
the Middle East with authority to impose on Israel a solution
that includes realization of Palestinian national ambitions.
Israel continues to have a (the?) negative role in this
Arab outlook: Israel is the only non-Arab nation (The Christian
Muslim Lebanon is now a fiction.) in the subcontinent; Israel
has stolen the Palestinians' land from them and now suppresses
them with cruelty.
Saddam's identification of Israel as the cause of the
Persian Gulf war is proven in the eyes of the fundamentalists
by his firing Scud missiles at Israel. By this reasoning, why
else would he waste his missiles on Israel if they were not
guilty as charged by Saddam Hussein.
There is evidence that large elements of the populace of
of the Arab countries that have cooperated with the US in what
they perceive as the attack on Iraq, first of all, but on
Saddam Hussein -- still seen as a potential Saladin -- in
particular are already in ferment, almost at a boil, ready to
break out in anger. These groups see the battle of Iraq with
the US and its allies as a fight of the Arab nation against an
attack by the historical enemy of the Arab/Muslim world, Western
Imperialism. Saudi Arabia is particularly vulnerable to this
criticism which sees that nation as allowing -- and thus
perverting a fundamental unwritten law of the Arabs -- an armed
and hated enemy, the West, to physically reenter the Arab
subcontinent. The implicit agenda of the West is, according to
these groups, is to take over the Arab oil resources.
These nationalistic elements, apparently growing in
strength from day day, view the US and its allies as Crusaders
engaged in a battle to the death with their hero, the
modern Saladin, Saddam Hussein. A victory of the West will be
seen as wiping the face of the Arabs in the mud; the hard US
and British demands are seen as particularly threatening. The
apparent unwillingness of these two Western powers -- perceived
by the Arabs as the classic Western Imperialists -- to compromise
indicates that it is these countries who want to strip Arabs of
their resources (oil), strength and pride.
The other side of the coin: any compromise for less than
the maximal demands of the UN decisions will be interpreted by
these nationalistic and fundamentalist elements as a great
victory for the Arab nation.
***********************
It is interesting to note the French and German haste to
support the Russian-Iraqi agreement. Why do I have the feeling
that it is not concern for the blood that might be spilled that
motivates their action? Why do I have the feeling that they are
more interested in resuming business -- as usual -- with Iraq;
business that includes rearming Saddam Hussein, supplying him
with the technology needed to become an aggressor once more?
A good business partner is hard to find.
Japan has announced that in her plan to help repair the
war damage in the area she will not be able to help the bombed
out victims in Israel. Israel, says Japan, is well off and her
aid will be directed to Jordan and Egypt who need it more. That
these countries have not suffered direct war damages apparently
does not factor into this equation. Just as the fact that Israel
has does not.
***********************
Our Army intelligence is now convinced that Iraq has
ground to ground missiles with chemical (Why do they insist on
calling poison gas chemical? Are they afraid of the word?
Chemical has so many good connotations, poison gas has none.)
warheads. These according to our sources can reach Israel.
We wait.
**********************
Tonight is Sabbath here; this will be the sixth Sabbath
since the war began. I hope it will be a quiet one. It is our
day of rest. Recently a scholar of international repute and even
fame said that the invention of the Sabbath is proof that the
Jews are lazy. This is actually an old accusation -- recorded in
ancient Roman sources.
The only good thing anyone is willing to say about us
these days is that we have, "in spite of all temptation," shown
restraint.
Who was it who said, "`Tis not restraint or liberty that
makes men prisoners or free?" Another kind of restraint,
perhaps, but somewhat appropriate.
__Bob Werman
rwerman@hujivms
Jerusalem
svet.326dejanr,
E blago svetu ako je Iračka vojska četvrta vojska sveta ;)
Sticajem okolnosti juče smo u "Rat i sećanja" slušali o Hitlerovim
raspoloženjima kada su "kola pošla nizbrdo". A onda danas, Husein
drži govor na istu temu. Nema drugih argumenata osim "Bog će nas
(tj. me) spasiti", čudo samo da ne pomenu i horoskop ;)
Što kažu na Bixu:
Q: What should Iraq get for its air defense system?
A: A refund.
svet.327bojt,
Za koji minut Buš će održati govor američkoj naciji. Očekuje se da
saopšti da je Kuvajt oslobodjen (ali da li i da je rat završen??).
Inače, večeras su na CNN-u u emisiji "Crossfire" raspravaljali gde i
kako treba suditi Sadamu, kad ga (i ako ga uopšte) savezničke snage
uhvate...
svet.328dejanr,
U celoj stvari mi se najviše svideo komentar onoga Amerikanca koji
reče da se Sadamova "majka svih bitaka" pretvorila u "majku svih
bežanija" ;> Zapravo, kada bi se rat vodio rečima, Sadam bi verovatno
začas osvojio svet, ali kad se došlo do konkretnih argumenata, njegova
"slavna vojska" je podvila rep i za samo četiri dana se što predala
što se "povukla" ostavljajući dobar deo oružja saveznicima. žak je i
elitna Republikanska garda većim delom opkoljena i verovatno će biti
totalno uništena ako rat potraje još koji dan.
Naročito je zanimljiv Sadam koji je jedan dan govorio o "strahovitim
gubicima koje neprijatelj trpi" i "lekciji koju će pamtiti" i svim
sličnim glupostima, a onda dan kasnije naredio povlačenje. A tek
formulacija "sile zla kukavički napadaju naše borce koji se povlače
ali im oni.... odgovaraju. Uprkos tim kukavičkim napadima, povlačenje
će se nastaviti". To je kao u onom vicu kad Crnogorac kaže "mi ko
sokolovi uz brdo, a Turci ko kurve za nama" :)
I, kako se rat bliži kraju, kakav je bilans? Američke i savezničke
snage oslobodile Kuvajt uz zanemarljive gubitke (naravno, svaki čovek
je veliki gubitak, ali stotinak poginulih i odgovarajući broj ranjenih
je zaista zanemarljivo u operacijama ovakvog obima i složenosti),
Kuvajt teško razrušen, Irak još teže (zapravo Irak je možda sačuvao
nešto vojnog potencijala u bunkerima, ali je kompletna proizvodna baza
zemlje računajući tu i puteve, mostove itd totalno razrušena) tako da
će proći godine i decenije pre nego što dođe na nivo pre ove sulude
agresije, ekološka katastrofa u okolnim morima (uzevši u obzir razmere
ove katastrofe, možda bi (paradokslano) uputrebe A bombe bila "čistija"),
pad cena nafte, rast dolara, rast USA kompanija koje će dobiti koncesiju
da ponovo podižu postrojenja u Kuvajtu (možda čak i neke naše firme
nešto "ušićare" mada se mi nismo dosetili da pošaljemo par vojnika u
savezničke trupe), pojačano Američko prisustvo u regionu i velike šanse
Bušu za sledeći mandat... Jedina nepoznanica je šta će biti sa Sadamom,
ja lično mislim da su mu dani odbrojani ali dok se sve ne rasplete
nećemo znati da li, u kom roku i na koji način.
Ovaj rat još jednom pokazuje ono što se pokazalo i u raznim Arapsko
Izraelskim sukobima - čak i veoma brojna i solidno naoružana vojska
koja počiva na fanatizmu i koju vode suludi diktatori nema mnogo šanse
protiv moderne i dobro obučene vojske na čelu sa sposobnim i školovanim
generalima. Takođe, jasna prevlast u vazduhu (uz prisustvo moderne vojne
tehnike) gotovo da predstavlja garanciju za dobijen rat.
svet.329dejanr,
Da podsetim i na nekoliko izjava sa početka ove diskusije koje se,
srećom, nisu pokazale tačnima:
>> Ne da neće zapadnjaci brzo dobiti rat, nego očekujem njihove
>> strahovite gubitke, naročito kada pokušaju da "osvoje" teritorije
>> pješadijom. E, onda ih braćo moja, čeka pravi masakr. I to iz dva
>> razloga: 1) Totalno su nesposobni za rat, što su dokazali više
>> puta zadnjih godina, kada su masovno ginuli dok još nisu ni
>> ugledali neprijatelja
>> A uz to Iračani uopšte nisu za potcjenjivanje. Nemojte nikada
>> i ni u čemu padati pod uticaj medija koje Ameri danas drže u
>> rukama!
>> Jedina šansa da se dobije rat je da u borbu uđu Izraelci, i to
>> u tenkovsku bitku, gdje su najjači.
>> Iracani nece dobiti lekciju (u ovom stanju oni nisu sposobni da
>> uce) koju su dobili Argentinci na Foklandima. Pre bih rekao da
>> su Amerikanci otisli po svoju lekciju, kao Britanci svojevremeno.
>> Iz prostog razloga sto oni u tom ratu ne mogu pobediti! Oni mogu da
>> biraju izmedju poraza i katastrofe.
>> Dakle Amerika nema ni jednog bezrezervnog saveznika (nisu to ni
>> Evropski saveznici) a, trupe im se nalaze u izrazito neprijateljskom
>> delu sveta sa izrazito nepovoljnom klimom za visoko tehnoloski rat
>> za koji su oni jedino spremani (namerno ne kazem spremni).
>> Ne postoji konvencionalno oruzje koje bi bilo dovoljno efikasno
>> protiv dvanaestogodisnjaka koji trce kroz minska polja, osim istih
>> takvih dvanaestogodisnjaka.
>> Amerika moze da oslobodi Kuvajt uz dosta zrtava, razaranja i enormne
>> troskove i da se izbori za svoj poraz jer Amerikanac ne moze da
>> prihvati rat u kome gine iko osim 'bad guys'
>> Kuvajcanima ostaje da se vrate u razoreni Kuvajt, da zive u komsiluku
>> Sadama Huseina kome nece biti nista ni ako se povuce (jos moze i
>> da trazi ustupke!)
>> Razmisljati o nekom osvajanju Iraka ili obaranju Huseinovog rezima
>> trenutno je neozbiljno
Itd, itd. Zapravo, mislim da su Saveznici dobili ovaj rat dosta lakše
nego što su očekivali, a srećom i većina onih 16,000 mrtvačkih vreća
ostaje kao promašena investicija.
svet.331dejanr,
>> Kada se o necemu raspravlja uvek postoje (najmanje)
>> dve strane, tako da uvek postoji onaj koji je nesto
>> pogresno predvideo (nije imao sreće)
Xexe, poneko zaista pogađa na sreću, ali se uglavnom radi
o ispravnosti procene. Lično volim da mi neko kaže kada nisam
bio u pravu (a to je postalo očito) jer mi to pomaže da sledeći
put bolje predvidim tok događaja.
svet.333dveselinovic,
Besmislica!
Ja sam bio jedan od onih koji su od samog početka tvrdili da Irak
ne može da dobije takav rat; isto tako sam tvrdio da se ne radi čak
ni o naFti (mada nema sumnje da je to bila jedna od glavnih stvari u
ovom ratu), već da se radi o jednom kuluturološkom ratu, hrišćanstvo
protiv islama.
Za ono prvo se pokazalo, baš kao i za izbore u Srbiji, da sam bio
u pravu; to je bio onaj laki deo prognoze. Sada ćemo da vidimo kako
stvoji stvar sa onim težim delom - hoće li Amerikanci stati, ili
krenuti dalje, do kraja? Ništa im više ne stoji na putu, a ako krenu
dalje, irački narod je obrao bostan. To me naravno ni malo ne raduje,
ali mislim da je trenutno šansa 50:50 da će Ameri ići dalje.
Jer, kakve su garancije da Sadam i sutra neće opet krenuti za par
godina kao i dva puta tokom ovih desetak godina?
U čemu se Sadam razlikuje od naših lokalnih poglavica, koje bi da
urade istu stvar, ali srećom nemaju još svoje vojske?
32XDVV
svet.334dejanr,
>> Sve u svemu one nase diskusije bile su cisto naklapanje i spekulisanje
>> jer moglo se desiti da Irak udje u kopnenu bitku pa onda ne bi bilo
>> viceva na racun onih 16000 mrtvackih kesa jer bi ih Ameri vrlo ubrzo
>> napunili..
E Ogy, imaš posao kod Sadama Huseina ako ti ikad bude trebao. Da mu pišeš
saopštenja za javnost, otprilike su vam na istom nivou. Jeste, bio on
dobar i fini pa se povukao, a onih 50,000 što se predalo to je zato da
uspore napredovanje neprijatelja, a i ispalio je više SCUD-ova koji su
sa izvanrednom preciznošću presreli američke rakete tipa Patriot...
Ma ta njegova vojska ne vredi po lule duvana, zapravo vredi kad se tuče
sa okolnim istim takvim vojskama, ali kada naiđe dobro obučena, moderno
naoružana i dobro vođena vojska, oni samo mogu da ratuju rečima i da se
predaju reporterima kad u njih upere kameru ;>
svet.335vcalic,
>> U čemu se Sadam razlikuje od naših lokalnih poglavica, koje bi da
>>urade istu stvar, ali srećom nemaju još svoje vojske?
Ovo je prava tema za diskusiju. Naime, smatram da postoje veoma jasne
paralele između Saddama Husseina i Slobodana Miloševića, pa i između Saddama
Husseina i Franje Tuđmana. Naročito je zanimljivo poređenje Saddam-Sloba.
Naime, obojica su vođe socijalističkih partija, obojica se nameću kao
neosporni autoriteti, obojica su doveli svoju zemlju u izolaciju, a bogami su
i obojica zreli za...., pa dobro nećemo sad o tome. ;)
WR
svet.336andrea,
│> U celoj stvari mi se najvise svideo komentar onoga Amerikanca
> koji rece da se Sadamova "majka svih bitaka" pretvorila u
> "majku svih bezanija" ;> Zapravo, kada bi se rat vodio recima,
> Sadam bi verovatno zacas osvojio svet, ali kad se doslo do
> konkretnih argumenata, njegova "slavna vojska" je podvila rep
Tacno, ali to ne znaci da ce njegov narod i ostali Arapi to
tako shvatiti. U kulturi gde se ljudi dicu kvalifikacijama
- University of Belgrade, B. Sc. in EE, 19**, failed - ;)
Saddam ce biti heroj jer je pobio ?????? svojih arapskih
brata u Kuvajtu, te se hrabro borio s supersilom. Ista fora
je uspela i Naseru i Sadatu, kad su ih dobili po turu od
Izraelaca, a slavili ih kod kuce ko heroje (te barem su ih
napali). Na bliskom istoku (pa i blize ;() ratovi se pak
uglavnom vode recima, i pokojim ubistvom, a oruzjem tek u
slucaju kad se veruje da je neprijatelj lak plen (no u
proceni svojih neprijatelja Saddam se dva puta zeznuo -
kaoticni postrevolucijski Iran nije bio bespomocan, a kod
Kuvajta pogresno je shvatio trapave americke diplomate ).
╝á
svet.337ognjan,
>> E Ogy, imaš posao kod Sadama Huseina ako ti ikad bude trebao
OPET zbrka oko tih naših pseudonima :(((( Izgleda da će jedan od nas morati
da promijeni pseudonim, zbog stalnih nesporazuma. Sve češće se nađem u
nezgodnoj situaciji, jer bivam optužen za razne stvari koje samnom nemaju nik'e
veze.
Osim toga ja se sa Ogijem ne slažem u većini stavova, kao ni ostali. :)
Pozdrav, Ogy.
P.S.
JOŠ JEDNOM:
ognjan = Ogy
oduzlevski = Ogi
svet.338dejanr,
==========
tojerry/russia #971, from dcolton, 1060 chars, Wed Mar 13 19:11:31 1991
----------
TITLE: It Is Happening Again
Lt. General N. Savenkov (no relation to SR Boris) of the KGB
Sixth Directorate (CI) gave an interview which has the spirit
of Yezhov in it. In the interview, he distinctly has linked foreign
investment with foreign intelligence operations, describes the
mission of a special operations division to combat economic
sabotage as essentially investigating profits and has demanded
that the new draft law on protecting confidential information of
the USSR and regulations be enforced. They are draconian.
The General also describes two alleged cases of economic
espionage that have the whiff of show trial about them. In the
wake of the now famous Dove affair in which American Express
was indirectly linked to an effort to sabotage the Soviet
economy, the circle has turned. The query now is whether they
are too late. The mass demonstrations this weekend were
definitely spectacular and posed the specter of (dare one
use the word) revolution. If only 9 republics elect to remain
in association if might be too little too late.
svet.339balinda,
>> Ovaj rat još jednom pokazuje ono što se pokazalo i u raznim
>> Arapsko Izraelskim sukobima - čak i veoma brojna i solidno
>> naoružana vojska koja počiva na fanatizmu i koju vode suludi
>> diktatori nema mnogo šanse protiv moderne i dobro obučene
>> vojske na čelu sa sposobnim i školovanim generalima.
Pored toga, kod nas je (valjda iz ideoloških razloga? ;)) vrlo slabo
objašnjen način na koji su saveznici (čitaj: Amerikanci) izveli odlučujuću
bitku. Ako je verovati nepristrasnosti komentatora, (?) reč je o savršeno
vođenoj bitci koja je, tvrdi se, apsolutno ušla u red najslavnijih bitaka
*svih* (!!!) vremena. (?)
svet.340balinda,
>> Da podsetim i na nekoliko izjava sa početka ove diskusije
>> koje se, srećom, nisu pokazale tačnima:
>> Mislim da ovo nije posteno.
>> ali to sto je taj neko bio u pravu ne znaci da sada treba sve
>> da nabije na nos onom drugom...
>> Za ono prvo se pokazalo, baš kao i za izbore u Srbiji, da sam bio
>> u pravu; to je bio onaj laki deo prognoze.
>> Lično volim da mi neko kaže kada nisam bio u pravu (a to je
>> postalo očito) jer mi to pomaže da sledeći put bolje predvidim
>> tok događaja.
Bez obzira što se sasvim lako može "braniti" stav da nas interesuje samo
istina, i da u podvlačenju kada smo bili u pravu, ima samo želje ka ličnom
usavršavanju, nekako "miriše" da u svemu tome ima i malčice sujete. (?) Dokaz
je i činjenica da se još niko nije pozvao na neke svoje loše prognoze. :(
svet.341dejanr,
==========
tojerry/russia #974, from hvanderbilt, 198 chars, Thu Mar 28 13:20:33 1991
Comment(s).
----------
TITLE: Fascinating. The US's Moscow embassy has burned to the ground.
Any connection between this and the impending showdown between Soviet
and Russian governments is no doubt purely coincidental.
==========
tojerry/russia #975, from rhsmith, 148 chars, Thu Mar 28 16:44:30 1991
Comment to 974. More refs to 974.
----------
Now you know what happens when you exceed the critaical density of
broadcast microwave powered listening devices per cubic meter of wall.
==========
tojerry/russia #976, from ginny, 232 chars, Thu Mar 28 18:55:23 1991
Comment to 974. More refs to 974.
----------
It doesn't seem to have burned all the way to the ground. A pity, since
the Congresscritters will doubtless order it repaired. Worse yet, they
could declare the embassy will move to that giant antenna the Soviets built
for us.
==========
tojerry/russia #977, from jerryp, 6 chars, Thu Mar 28 19:38:38 1991
Comment to 974. Comment(s). More refs to 974.
----------
when?
==========
tojerry/russia #978, from hvanderbilt, 442 chars, Thu Mar 28 21:13:47 1991
Comment to 977. Comment(s). More refs to 977.
----------
The first report I heard was late morning Eastern time. The video clip
showed fire shooting out of the embassy roof, under daylight overcast skies.
The claim is that the fire was started by sparks from a welding torch in
an elevator shaft that was undergoing renovations. No word on who the workmen
were. All 400 staff are supposed to have gotten out OK, with one Marine
and a number of Moscow firemen (right) suffering smoke inhalation.
==========
tojerry/russia #979, from dcolton, 34 chars, Thu Mar 28 22:20:40 1991
Comment to 977. Comment(s).
----------
What has Matlock said about this?
==========
tojerry/russia #980, from david42, 102 chars, Fri Mar 29 01:35:51 1991
Comment to 974. More refs to 974.
----------
It was so bugged that I bet we did it. (USA, that is) I know I would if I
were in charge of security.
==========
tojerry/russia #981, from hvanderbilt, 76 chars, Fri Mar 29 10:56:48 1991
Comment to 978.
----------
The "sparks from a welding torch" explanation came from TASS, it turns out.
==========
tojerry/russia #982, from hvanderbilt, 13 chars, Fri Mar 29 10:57:24 1991
Comment to 979.
----------
Matlock who?
==========
tojerry/russia #983, from agni, 310 chars, Fri Mar 29 11:58:28 1991
Comment to 974. Comment(s).
----------
The first one, had cheap diodes mixed into the cement, to make
bug detection impossible.
Gee, Id rather use such a building, to make the soviets think what I
wanted them to. It would be a tremendous asset for somone who
knew how to use it. And they do put secret rooms in after the fact.
+Agni
==========
tojerry/russia #984, from rsimonsen, 80 chars, Fri Mar 29 17:46:10 1991
Comment to 983. Comment(s).
----------
And I'd count on our electronic debugging over soviet ability to bug.
--Redmond
==========
tojerry/russia #985, from jdow, 44 chars, Fri Mar 29 19:20:36 1991
Comment to 984. Comment(s).
----------
I wouldn't. But then I know too much.
{o.o}
==========
tojerry/russia #986, from kboan, 340 chars, Fri Mar 29 19:30:24 1991
Comment to 985.
----------
Standing orders at the Moscow US Embassy are to treat _everything_ as
'unsecured'. The phones, the computers, the typewriters, the rooms, the
cars, the whole place and everything in it or associated with it. Or so I've
been told by people who have done tours there.
I do know the staff gets hardship duty treatment while they are there.
svet.342zddb,
Gdje li su sad, dok traje genocid nad Kurdima, oni humanisti i
dušebrižnici koji su opravdavali američku intervenciju u Kuvajtu
brigom za jadne Kuvajćane? Nijednoga nisam čuo da se sad zapitao
zašto Amrikanci ne intervenišu sada da zaštite jadnu kurdsku djecu.
Da li će morati da osjete rezultate te politike ti naši humanisti,
uskoro i na svojoj zadnjici, da bi im postale jasne neke stvari?
Zoran D. Brkić
svet.343dejanr,
>> Gdje li su sad, dok traje genocid nad Kurdima, oni humanisti i
>> dušebrižnicioji su opravdavali američku intervenciju u Kuvajtu
>> brigom za jadne Kuvajćane? Nijednoga nisam čuo da se sad zapitao
>> zašto Amrikanci ne intervenišu sada da zaštite jadnu kurdsku djecu.
Kao što je već više puta rečeno, Amerikanci (tačnije saveznici) su u
Kuvajtu ratovali na osnovu mandata Saveta bezbednosti Ujedinjenih
nacija koji je zahtevao povlačenje Iraka iz Kuvajta. Sada je taj cilj
ostvaren, i napad na Irak bi (prvenstveno od onih koji su i ranije
protestvovali protiv rata, među njima i od tebe) bio označen kao
"mešanje u unutrašnje stvari suverene države". Stvar je Iraka da uredi
svoje unutrašnje odnose, a svet bi tu mogao da pruža prvenstveno
humanitarnu pomoć.
Osim toga, kakvog interesa ima Amerika da sada udari na Irak? Očito joj
više odgovara da ga pusti da se sam uništi.
>> Da li će morati da osjete rezultate te politike ti naši humanisti,
>> uskoro i na svojoj zadnjici, da bi im postale jasne neke stvari?
Hoće li je osetiti? Ili će i to biti jedna prognoza poput:
>> Ne da neće zapadnjaci brzo dobiti rat, nego očekujem njihove
>> strahovite gubitke, naročito kada pokušaju da "osvoje" teritorije
>> pješadijom. E, onda ih braćo moja, čeka pravi masakr. I to iz dva
>> razloga: 1) Totalno su nesposobni za rat, što su dokazali više
>> puta zadnjih godina, kada su masovno ginuli dok još nisu ni
>> ugledali neprijatelja
:)
svet.344zddb,
"Kao što je već više puta rečeno, Amerikanci (tačnije saveznici) su u
Kuvajtu ratovali na osnovu mandata Saveta bezbednosti Ujedinjenih
nacija koji je zahtevao povlačenje Iraka iz Kuvajta. Sada je taj cilj
ostvaren, i napad na Irak bi (prvenstveno od onih koji su i ranije
protestvovali protiv rata, među njima i od tebe) bio označen kao
"mešanje u unutrašnje stvari suverene države". Stvar je Iraka da uredi
svoje unutrašnje odnose, a svet bi tu mogao da pruža prvenstveno
humanitarnu pomoć."
Kakva hipokrizija Zapada! Iskreno se nadam da ti ne vjeruješ da je
istina pola od ovoga.
"Osim toga, kakvog interesa ima Amerika da sada udari na Irak? Očito joj
više odgovara da ga pusti da se sam uništi."
E, tu se slažem. Ali sad je mi je već sve jasno iz novina. Ovog
puta Amerima treba jak Sadam?!
>> Ne da neće zapadnjaci brzo dobiti rat, nego očekujem njihove
>> strahovite gubitke, naročito kada pokušaju da "osvoje" teritorije
>> pješadijom. E, onda ih braćo moja, čeka pravi masakr. I to iz dva
>> razloga: 1) Totalno su nesposobni za rat, što su dokazali više
>> puta zadnjih godina, kada su masovno ginuli dok još nisu ni
>> ugledali neprijatelja
Ha, ha, ha! Vrlo kvarno s tvoje strane. Već sam se ponadao da je
to zuvijek izbrisano s diska. Tu si poveo sa 1:0! Nije te mrzelo
da roviš po arhivi?
Ipak, mislim da još uvijek ima tu dosta tamnih tačaka.
Nije jasno šta se tu sve dešavalo iza scene. Imam utisak da su na
tok rata veliku ulogu odigrali Rusi, jer do prave bitke u Kuvajtu
nije ni došlo. Sve mi to više liči na dobrovoljno povlačenje. Gdje
je plan i opis te briljantne bitke (operacije). Gdje su mape, gdje
su slike? Izgleda da su tu pali aranžmani, uz garanciju Rusa, tipa
ostavite Sadama, eto vam Kuvajt?
> Misliš li da to što govoriš na Engleskom (i to ne baš slavnom :)
> daje dodatnu snagu tvojim argumentima?
Ne, samo ne delim onakav ton kada se govori o srpskom narodu, pa sam se, ne daj
Boze, uplasio, da me neces shvatiti na srpskom jeziku. To je zaisto sve.K Ja
nikakve argumente nisam ponudio, i ako ih u mojoj reply ima, ne vidim ih. :)
Rade"
He, he, he!
Ha, ha, ha!
Ovaj brat je izjednačio, umjesto mene!
Te je sada skor 1:1!
Pozdrav Zoran D. Brkić
svet.346dejanr,
>> Nije jasno šta se tu sve dešavalo iza scene. Imam utisak da su na
>> tok rata veliku ulogu odigrali Rusi, jer do prave bitke u Kuvajtu
>> nije ni došlo. Sve mi to više liči na dobrovoljno povlačenje. Gdje
>> je plan i opis te briljantne bitke (operacije). Gdje su mape, gdje
>> su slike?
Pa, to što ih ti nisi video ne znači da ne postoje - da si malo osmotrio
recimo CNN (kome, naravno, ništa ne veruješ :) ili pročitao neki strani
časopis (isti slučaj :), ili čak recimo "Start" (Hrvatske novine?
Lažu garant! ;) video bi brojne vojne komentatore koji su do u detalje
opisivali vojnu operacija zasnovanu na tome da su Iračke trupe, posle
jednog "maskirnog" napada, udarene sa strane sa koje nisu očekivale
neprijatelja. Zapravo, radi se o briljantno vođenoj operaciji, kojoj
je itekako pomogao strahovito slab moral u Iračkoj vojsci, slabo
snabdevanje, vaznušna superiornost (blaga reč!) saveznika itd.
Sve i da poverujem u to namerno povlačenje, kako bi se objasnio ONOLIKI
broj Iračana koji su se predavali saveznicima? Pa čak i novinarima koji
u njih upere kameru? Ah da - oni su imali naređenje da se predaju da
bi usporili napredovanje Amerikanaca ;>>
svet.347djovicevic,
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 91 8:59 +0300
Ňfrom■ <RWERMAN@HUJIVMS> Bob Werman
Subject: The Kurds, the Jews
The Kurds, the Jews: Two People with a Common Cause
đđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđ
The Kurds are once again in the headlines; the only
headline that this poor, besotted people seem to earn is one of
slaughter and maltreatment, of broken promises, of hopes dashed,
starvation and death. The Kurds are an ancient non-Arab Muslim
people who may be of Iranian stock; they speak Kurdish, a
language that bears some relation to Persian. They have been for
most of their history migrating, pastoral mountaineers, known as
brave and resourceful fighters, skilled in guerrilla warfare.
The great Saladin was himself a Kurd. They live in Eastern
Turkey, Northern Iraq and Iran and to a small extent in
Northeastern Syria. They are mostly Sunni Moslems.
The Turks captured part of Kurdistan in 1550, but the area
was never completely conquered; the still ambivalent - at best -
attitude of the Turks to the Kurds is evident in their current
refusal to admit Kurdish refugees who have crowded the Iraqi
Turkish border. Even more obviously antagonistic is the Turkish
treatment of their own Kurds; the Turks have kept the Kurds
living in abject poverty, isolated and with extremely limited
economic opportunities. The migrations of the semi-nomadic Kurds
in the past has produced great tension in Turkish-Persian
relationships.
The British promised the Kurds a homeland after World War
I; this promise was forgotten when the British created the
Kingdom of Iraq for their Arabian ally, King Faisal I, a cousin
of Abdullah, the ally they set up in Jordan in contravention to
the Balfour Declaration's promise of that territory as part of a
homeland for the Jews.
The Russians occupied Northern Iran after World War II and
again promised the Kurds a state, but now in Iran as well; again
the promise came to nought. And now President Bush has
encouraged the Kurds to revolt and overthrow Saddam Hussein in
the wake of Operation Desert Storm. And again the Kurds have
been deserted. Believing that the Iraqi army had been destroyed
as claimed by the US and that the US would support their
revolution, the Kurds attacked and temporarily captured much of
Northern Iraq. But this initial success was halted and reversed
by a resurgent Iraqi army. Moreover, the expected aid from the
Americans was not forthcoming. Secretary of State Baker spent
all of 12 minutes at the Turkish-Iraqi border viewing the plight
of the hundreds of thousands of Kurdish refugees Ňthere are less
than 5,000,000 of them altogether■, who are camped on the border,
in the cold mountainous atmosphere without shelter and food after
having fled from Iraqi helicopters, supposedly destroyed by the
US and its allies, from phosphorous bombs and Napalm. It was a
detour for Secretary of State Baker, we have to admit that. So
much for promises.
The Iraqis have persecuted the Kurds with a vengeance; time
after time the Kurds have attempted to revolt. In the 60's under
Barazani Ňnot Jewish, but the name - meaning from the town Barazan
- is also found among Kurdish Jews, including Asnat Barazani Ň1590-
1670■, the only woman head of a yeshiva that I have ever heard of■
they appeared to have some success; Israel was known to favor the
Kurdish revolt and probably supplied arms to the rebels as well as
tactical aid. With Saddam Hussein's accession to the rule of Iraq,
the Kurdish revolt was suppressed with finality. The Iraqis
overflew a Kurdish village and dropped canisters of poison gas;
the result: 5,000 dead, no survivors other than those villagers
away at the time of the bombing.
Jews have lived in Kurdistan since antiquity; Benjamin of
Tudela, a 12th century traveller, visited the region about 1170
C.E., reporting that more than 100 Jewish communities were found
there. He reported that in the town of Amadiya there were 25,000
Jews, all speaking Aramaic. Some of these are probably
descendents of first century converts to Judaism, a national
ŇAdiabene■ conversion that began at royal levels and is recorded
in a number of sources. The Kurds or Kurdistan are mentioned Ňas
Kardu or Kurduchim■ in the Targums to Genesis Ň8:4■ and Jeremiah
Ň51:27■, in Josephus ŇAntiquities 1:93■ and in the Talmud
ŇYevamot 16a■. In modern times the Jews of Kurdistan were
singular in that they spoke ancient Aramaic, although polluted by
insertions of foreign words from Kurdish, Persian, Arabic,
Turkish and Hebrew.
Kurdish Jews lived a difficult and poor life, working as
farmers and as artisans. Their relations with the Kurdish
Muslims were actually quite good, particularly after 1948. The
positive attitude of Kurdish Jews in Israel Ňthey all left in
1950-51, about 20,000 of them■ to their ex-neighbors has played
an important role in Israeli support of Kurdistani national
ambitions at the political as well as offering practical military
aid. I remember a Kurdish Jewish wedding in the 60's where a
major part of the entertainment was recital of a ballad whose
chorus was chanted by all; the theme of the ballad, in Arabic,
was the heroism and successes of the non-Jewish Kurdi rebel
leader of the time, Barazani.
Following this tradition, Israel is now involved in
sending supplies to the Kurdish refugees, providing blankets,
tents, canned goods and medical supplies to be parachuted to the
starving, freezing refugees. We have currently sent two tons of
such supplies for the Kurds. Israel has other reasons to be
concerned about the treatment of the Kurds. Israel identifies
with the plight of the Kurds. Israel is now being asked to make
territorial, political and military concessions to Israel's
enemies, with the understanding that international guarantees,
particularly American, will provide the protection needed and
lost by these guarantees. If promises are not kept, if the word
of the US and its Persian Gulf allies cannot be relied upon, how
can Israeli put its trust in such guarantees? And it very much
sounds as if promises were made to the Kurds, promises which were
not kept.
President Bush ended the Persian Gulf War too soon. He
did not want the world to see him as vindictive, hunting Saddam
Hussein down; he believed that the Iraqi people would depose a
weakened Saddam Hussein, whose promises of victory were shown to
be a mere illusion. He did not want to exceed his UN mandate, he
was sensitive to the fear the Arabs had of Western presence and
purposes in the Arab sub-continent. He did not want any more loss
of lives of American soldiers; he was riding on a crest of
popularity at home that would collapse in the face of heavy
casualties. President Bush stopped when he had accomplished
withdrawal of Iraq from Kuwait, when the army of Iraq no longer
seemed a threat, when American self-image had risen to new heights.
But his refusal to help the Kurds actively Ňafter all, this
is an internal problem of Iraq - a consideration that can be used
most cynically■ has opened the doors to new and renewed criticism
of President Bush's motives in the Persian Gulf. Protecting
sources of oil was always a consideration, and a correct one, in
the US action against Iraq; now it incorrectly appears in the eyes
of critics that it was the only one or the major consideration in
US intervention. Even more damaging may be the loss of the newly
regained image of the US as the major keeper of international
morality, as a defender of the world, or at least as the leader
in the world's self defence against aggression. The whole world
once again asks with deep concern, "Can the US be counted on to
keep its promises to other countries?"
We in Israel have a very cynical attitude to promises.
More than once we have witnessed UN buffer forces who walked out
at the first smell of trouble. We have had the US guarantee the
right of free passage in the Straits of Tiran; but when Egypt
closed the Straits in 1967, the US did nothing more than
remonstrate with Egypt.
One of our Prime Ministers, Levi Eshkol, was caught, the
story goes, in the act of breaking a promise. When someone
pointed out that he had not kept his promise, Eshkol reputedly
replied, "What? Are we no longer allowed to make promises?"
We would like to believe promises made to us; it would
make lives so much simpler, so much safer if we could count
on the promises. But we are cynical. What is happening with the
Kurds does not make it easier for us. It is very difficult for
us to believe in promises. But we very much want to.
__Bob Werman
rwerman@hujivms
Jerusalem
svet.348dejanr,
žujem na CNN-u da je Džordž Buš imao srčani napad dok se "rekreirao" i da je
smešten u bolnicu u, kako kažu, ne baš dobrom ali ipak stabilnom stanju.
Lepo reče pokojni Duško Radović - "neki trče za ženama, a neki bez razloga".
svet.349.bale.,
Gandiju razneli glavu... :(((
svet.350dejanr,
>> Gandiju razneli glavu... :(((
Auuu.... u toj Indiji će uskoro da plaćaju ljude da budu političari,
jer dobrovoljno neće niko hteti! Ja mislim da je cela porodica Gandi
gotovo istrebljena i to sve na isti način :(
svet.351balinda,
>> Ja mislim da je cela porodica Gandi
>> gotovo istrebljena i to sve na isti način :(
Zaista je za žaljenje ali, ponajpre Indira je uradila dooosta toga što joj
nikako ne ide u prilog kako god postavili stvari. Mislim da je ubedeljivo
najgore što je izgleda tačno da su rađene sterilizacije da bi se smanjio
natalitet i to praktično na prevaru. :((((
Reč je o neukom stanovništvu koje nije ni znalo šta im se radi. Mene to
isuviše podseća na nekoga ko se takođe ponosio arijevskim poreklom. :(
svet.352mkiric,
>> >> Gandiju razneli glavu... :(((
>> Auuu.... u toj Indiji će uskoro da plaćaju ljude da budu političari,
>> jer dobrovoljno neće niko hteti! Ja mislim da je cela porodica
>> Gandi gotovo istrebljena i to sve na isti način :(
Tužno. Ne bih želeo da budem pogrešno shvaćen, ali kad uporedim
Gandijeve sa našim "političarima" pomislim da možda ne bi bilo loše da
uvezemo iz Indije nekoliko takvih terorista. Pravim ljudima se uvek
dešavaju pogrešne stvari, a pogrešnim ljudima nikad da se dese prave
stvari.
svet.353jgolub,
>>Gandiju razneli glavu... :(((
Ja bih rekao da su raznjeli cijelog Gandija. :((((((
Ljudi moji, kamo ide ovaj ludi svijet?
Pozdrav, Jerko #:)
svet.354vcalic,
He, he, moram malo da se hvalim svojim poznanstvima ;)) Dakle,
naslednik Radživa Gandija na mestu lidera Indijske Kongresne Partije, je
Narasimo Rao. žovek je pre deset godina bio prvi sekretar indijske ambasade
u Beogradu, i stanovao je u zgradi na uglu Birčaninove ulice i ulice
Svetozara Markovića. To sve znam, zato što su njegova deca išla sa mnom u
školu (OŠ Njegoš), i u njihovom stanu sam bio n puta, tako da poznajem i
Narasimu ;))) Sećam se da nam je potencijalni indijski premijer, stalno
poklanjao neke čokolade, i one mirišljave štapiće koji kad se zapale šire
miris sličan mirisu upaljenog hašiša ;)).
Mada, kad bolje porazmislim, bolje bi bilo da poznajem kineskog
premijera. Jer, lako ćemo mi ako nas napadnu Ameri, Rusi, Nemci i ovi
ostali. Al' ako nas napadnu Kinezi..... ;))
WR
svet.355dveselinovic,
Izvinite, gospodine žaliću, a otkud Vi znate kako miriše upaljen
hašiš? Da ti štampići ipak nisu bili prava stvar?
To bi naime objasnilo vaš večni lelujavi osmeh na licu. :))))))
32XDVV
svet.356dejanr,
U sledećih nekoliko poruka su utisci Freda Lange, glavnog urednika
BYTE-a, o SSSR-u i računarstvu tamo. Poruke su preuzete sa BIX-a.
svet.357dejanr,
==========
tojerry/russia #1012, from flanga, 1712 chars, Fri Jun 21 14:24:27 1991
Comment(s).
----------
Moscow+Clean Underwear = Good Trip
---
Unlike last year's trip to Moscow, where it took 5 days for my
luggage to catch up with me, this year's trip is going far more
smoothly. I'm writing this in my room on the 13th floor of the
Hotel Mezhdunarodnaja, with a view west along the Moscow River.
The Hotel is about half a mile from the Russian Republic's
gleaming white marble Parliament building--- Boris Yeltsin's new
seat of power.
Trip started with about a week in England on BYTE business,
visiting hardware and software companies, and conducting
telephone interviews. Midway through the English leg of the trip,
I shuttled to Amsterdam for a day to meet with some Dutch
software publishers, be interviewed by a local edition of
Computerworld, and to meet a would-be Benelux Bureau Chief.
(If you're curious about the various flights, planes, airports,
etc., I've posted some related material in
aviation/frequent.flyer.)
The flight went on a newly-opened route: Amsterdam to Berlin to
Warsaw to Moscow. It was cloudy, so there was nothing to see as
we overflew these cities, though.
Moscow airport looked the same as last year, which is to say OK,
but seedy around the edges. Luggage arrived fine (hooray!). No
hassles with immigration or customs.
Was met at the airport by a friend and very nice person: Levon
Amdilyan, managing director of the organization that's sponsoring
this week's "International Computer Forum." He drove me to the
hotel in his prized Volvo--- engine knocking loudly from the
low-octane gas, and the heater going full blast (despite the
summer-like temperatures) in an attempt to keep the engine from
overheating. He drove me to the hotel, about which more in
another message.
svet.358dejanr,
==========
tojerry/russia #1013, from flanga, 2490 chars, Fri Jun 21 14:25:45 1991
----------
Soviet Voices: A Random Sample
"It was better to have a bad, but stable system, than to have a
maybe-someday-better but unstable system."
"Prices are crazy. It makes no sense."
"We fear civil war. The southern republics already are at war;
they are killing each other. We wonder when or if it will happen
in Moscow."
"Russians are a big-hearted, kind people." Then, minutes later
from the same person, "People from the southern republics are
like animals. When I see them, it is like watching orangutans in
the zoo."
"Russia [the Russian Republic] cannot survive. It is too big. We
are too different from the Middle Asians. Perhaps they need their
own country."
"Everyone I know wants to leave the country. Everyone who can is
trying to get out."
"This spring, the most ordinary items--- milk, bread, vitamins,
eggs--- disappeared from stores. Every day, there is a new
minister on television explaining why today's shortages happened.
It's sad, but also funny; like a comedy."
"Everyone is thinking of how to make money on the side. All that
time and energy is being wasted. All I want to do is work hard at
my job and be paid enough to live on. But today you cannot."
"It is better for me now than a year ago, but not for ordinary
people." Several people echoed this sentiment. Perhaps it's just
that the folks I know in the USSR tend to be well-off: bilingual
professionals and academicians. Hmmm.
"Daily living is harder now, but it is different on the inside.
We feel differently; change is now possible. I think Yeltsin will
help make make things better."
"I don't think Yeltsin will last more than 6 months. They are all
abnormal people, those who want power. They are *all* abnormal."
"I have travelled in the west. When I want to complain about
prices here, I divide by thirty [30 rubles to the dollar] and
realize that things here are *cheap*. On the other hand, when I
am in the west, I multiply prices there by thirty, and realize
things there are *expensive.*"
"I succeeded under the socialist hell--- the many socialist
hells. I achieved position despite it. Yet I tell you things will
not improve here for 10, 20 years. All the pretty words about
business and free markets are deceptions by the ruling class."
"Things are more hopeful now. I think it will get better,
slowly."
And this, often: "Tell me what you think we should do." What a
hopeless feeling to be asked that.
"We were once a proud country, with many heroic people. Now we
are only ashamed."
svet.359dejanr,
==========
tojerry/russia #1014, from flanga, 4219 chars, Fri Jun 21 14:27:16 1991
Comment(s).
----------
How do you make 5 seconds equal 45 minutes? Through Soviet
economics.
---
The room at the hotel is nicer than least year's. Rugs are new
and fairly clean. Walls have been painted (over wallpaper) fairly
recently. Furniture is nice, with a comfortable bed. Same
scratchy towels hanging on a heated towel bar, though the
bathroom's only semi-clean.
Unlike last year's room, which was equipped with strange outlets
that none of my socket adaptors would fit (one vertical slot, one
horizontal slot), this room as traditional European round-pin
sockets; my laptop happily runs off the 240V 50Hz cycle now.
New color TV, too: not the heavy Soviet model that I had last
year (they have a tendency to explode and start fires--- some
tourists recently died in a TV-caused fire in a Leningrad hotel).
Now, it's a West German ITT/Nokia model. CNN is still run on
Channel 1.
Levon took me to dinner in one of the Mezhdunarodnaja's
restaurants. He also brought his group's non-English-speaking PR
director, a very young woman named Irena. Made for awkward
conversation, as I speak virtually no Russian.
One snag, all too typical of the Soviet Union: I last
communicated with Levon two weeks ago, via MCI. He confirmed the
dates of the show, and arranged my hotel for me. Tonight, he told
me the dates of the conference had changed, moving back one day.
That means I'm here a day early, and will leave while the
conference is still in session. Dammit.
But the food was tasty, abundant, and interesting: two kinds of
smoked sturgeon, two kinds of caviar, white and black bread,
white and red Ukranian wines (I had a few evil thoughts about
Chateau Chernoble--- but how much harm can one bottle of wine
do?), smoked tongue (of cow; it tasted better than it looked),
spiced beef, spiced pork. Those were just the appetizers.
My entree was a credible beefsteak, tasty although somewhat
tough. Levon and Irina opted for another sturgeon dish. All in
all, a very pleasant meal that supported Levon's assertion that
shortages in the USSR are artificial, and caused only by
artificially low prices. (EG. Gasoline officially sells for about
ten cents per gallon, when you can find it; a price that's less
then even the refining costs.) When you pay normal world-market
prices, he says, you can get anything you want or need in Moscow.
Of course, most Muscovites can't earn normal world-market wages,
and buying power is dropping like a stone.
Last year, the official exchange rate was 6 Rubles to the Dollar.
This year, the official rate is 27.5 Rubles to the dollar!
Average wages still remain about 180 Rubles a month. Today,
American cigarettes are sold individually because most people
can't afford packs.
Assuming (wrongly) that an average Soviet citizen works 8 hours a
day, they labor 45 minutes for the price of a single Marlboro: 85
kopecks.
Eighty-five kopecks is about 3 cents.
Want to get depressed? Calculate how long it takes *you* to earn
3 cents.
Here's a hint: if you make, say, $40,000 a year, you earn 3 cents
roughly every 5 seconds. Your 5 seconds has the same earning
power as 45 *minutes* work in the USSR.
The largest bank note in normal circulation is 25 rubles, or
about 90 cents. Before I knew the exchange rate, I converted
US$200 to rubles--- and got a wad of bank notes two inches thick
in return. It was sad, and made me feel silly.
No, not everything is cheap. A "Comstar" debit card, which you
need to make international phone calls, costs 120 rubles for 6
minutes to the US. But these aren't real rubles: they're mythical
"gold rubles", each worth 1.7 dollars. A year ago, these mythical
rubles (which exist only to separate foreigners from as much hard
currency as possible in the shortest time possible) cost 1.6
dollars. While the real ruble has fallen to just 25% of its value
a year ago, they've *raised* the arbitrary value of the gold
ruble. But that's British Telecomm and its Soviet partners in
"Comstar." They know there's a lot of folks like me: I'll pay a
lot to be able to call home and hear the voices of the folks I
love, so they charge accordingly. The rapacious slimeballs.
I'll use my unexpected free time to explore what I can before the
conference events. More later.
svet.360dejanr,
==========
tojerry/russia #1015, from flanga, 6956 chars, Fri Jun 21 14:29:11 1991
----------
The Moscow Metro, and a peek inside a Soviet Apartment
I telephoned Tamara, a very bright young woman who worked as a
translator at last year's ICF. She had been a great guide to
Moscow for me last year--- incredibly open and insightful about
Moscow in particular, and the Soviet system in general; just
plain good company. Over the last year, we'd maintained a
long-distance friendship via sloooow Soviet mail.
When I got Tamara on the phone, she invited me to her brother's
apartment for coffee in the afternoon. She suggested I take the
Metro.
I'd heard good things about the Moscow Metro, but the prospects
of travelling without a guide still were unnerving. To tell you
the truth, I almost chickened out and took a cab. Here's why:
Phoentically, Russian isn't too bad. There are many words that
sound very much like their English counterparts. But the Cyrillic
alphabet is hard (at least for me). The metro stop Tamara told me
to get off at is written something like
CxogHeHcka[backwards R]
and pronounced something like "Shkog-nen-sky-ya." I haven't the
vaguest idea what it means. But this is all complicated by the
fact that different Cryllic typefaces can present letters in
radically different ways, many of which are beyond the scope of
my little Berlitz pocket phrasebook.
But what the hell. I asked a cop for directions to the metro in
pidgin Russian, and started out at the appointed hour.
The Metro is clean, efficient, and *cheap*, another example of
how the Soviet government manages to run its economy into the
ground: Metro trains are all eight cars long, and run every two
minutes. You can ride all day within Moscow city limits (there
are some 13 different metro lines serving the city) for 15
kopecks.
Muscovites complain because it used to cost only 5 kopecks.
Still, 15 kopecks is about one-half a US cent. Surely even the
electricity to carry you costs more than that. Wear and tear on
equipment has to be more than that, to say nothing of the wages
of the Metro workers.
And they have many workers. For example, some escalators (much
faster than US models, incidentally) have a woman in a kiosk
stationed at the bottom. She sits there, watching people ride up
and down, with one large toggle switch in front of her for each
escalator she watches; typically three escalators, and three
switches. Her job is to turn off the escalator in case anyone
falls. There are no do-it-yourself emergency shut-off switches,
as in Western models.
The Metro is very fast, like express trains in US cities. the
cars are old but clean and appear well-maintained.
At each station, a digital clock keeps precise time, and a
countdown timer ticks off the seconds since the last train left.
The trains arrive every two minutes, plus or minus twenty seconds
or so.
The drivers only run the trains for one stop: on arriving at a
station, the driver gets out, and a new driver gets in. The
original driver waits for the next train. When it arrives, he
takes over, and the new driver gets out to wait for the train
after that. I have no idea why.
Tamara met me at CxogHeHcka[backwards R], and we took a streetcar
(transfers are free) to her brother's apartment. She is very
proud: her brother was recently hired as a researcher by a US
University for two years, and he is letting Tamara use his flat.
But from the outside, I feared the worst. With overgrown
courtyards and crumbling facades, the buildings looked decrepit.
We walked some distance through a maze of identical apartment
buildings, across muddy fields, and down broken stairs. One of
the buildings is a dormitory for a local Institute, which looks
like a small industrial building set within the cenotaph-like
apartment buildings. There's also a small elementary school
within the complex. In the school playground, the only piece of
recreational equipment was a small, meter-high geodesic climbing
frame.
Tamara's building was 11 stories high; her flat--- her brother's
flat--- is on the top floor. We went up a slow, noisy elevator.
The hallways are dark; the lights don't work. Cooking smells---
not unpleasant--- filled the air. Every surface needed a
scrubbing and a fresh coat of paint. There was almost no
graffiti, however.
At the end of a hall, there's a small semi-private locked
vestibule which serves a cluster of 3 or 4 apartments. The
vestibule is used for storage and as a mudroom. We took off our
shoes, and Tamara loaned me her brother's slippers.
She unlocked the apartment door--- a curious Soviet tradition, I
was to learn later, is that entrance doors are *upholstered* with
a padded leather surface!--- and we went in.
Sonovagun. It was *nice.* I've lived in worse apartments--- much
worse in college, in fact, and a bit worse when I first got
married.
Tamara's apartment far exceeded the expectations set up by the
seedy building exterior. It was clean, bright, and tastefully
furnished. Not extravagant, no, but comfortable.
Consider: the exterior of the building, and the structure itself,
is owned by "the State." Which is to say, owned by everyone, and
no one.
But the interior of each apartment is the domain of the
inhabitants, under their control and a kind of de facto
ownership. the insides are nice.
For one person, Tamara, or her brother when he was living there,
it's an ideal size. A living room perhaps 10X20 feet opening onto
a narrow balcony porch, a bedroom perhaps 15x15 feet, a small
kitchen, and a compact private bath. (Actually, two half baths:
the toilet is in its own small room, the tub and sink in
another--- and efficient arrangement, when you think about it.)
The parquet wood floors are worn, but nice--- faded glory--- and
protected by Asian rugs, kept clean by the custom of removing
shoes at the door.
One problem: no screens on the windows, which were open wide to
catch the warm breezes. Flies and the odd mosquito traversed the
room on a schedule not much less punctual than the Metro's.
The kitchen had an electric range and refrigerator; a large color
TV had a place of honor in the living room, and Tamara played
some tapes (mostly bootleg recordings of American artists) on an
Asian cassette player.
Tamara says her parents live in a similar apartment, which she
calls "two room," and says it's fine for them. However, when she
was living at home, trying to fit three people in was very tight.
I can imagine. I can *not* imagine fitting more than three people
into the space, although I have heard that does happen with
families with small children. I don't know if such living
conditions are the cause or effect of the Soviets' different
views on personal space and privacy, but either way, it has to be
a part of it.
But, with just one person living there, it was a nice place:
something that might pass as a perfectly good starter apartment
for working people in the US.
Ever see an Armenian throw money in the air like confetti?
Neither had I, but that's what happened next.
svet.361dejanr,
==========
tojerry/russia #1016, from flanga, 5107 chars, Fri Jun 21 14:30:44 1991
----------
Confetti made of real money
When Russians dine--- or even snack--- they pull out all the
stops. Tamara's "coffee" was extravagant: coffee, yes, but also a
great mound of eclairs, a kilo of fresh cherries, a large bar of
milk chocolate candy, and various other edibles I didn't even
explore.... And the coffee itself was in the Eastern style: whole
beans fresh ground to a fine powder and mixed with boiling water
in a narrow, flask-like metal container atop the stove; and
served, thick and unfiltered, in small cups.
I helped Tamara proof an English translation she'd been hired to
do: a proposal to found a new International University in
Moscow--- one whose curriculum would be focused entirely on
solving "Problems of Man in Future:" ecology, health, global
nutrition, etc. Hmmmmm.
Then we went to dinner, by quasi-taxi. I asked if we could just
call a cab, and Tamara told me that you can only call to order a
real taxi for the *next day*. A full 24-hour notice is required.
OK. Scratch that.
So, along with numerous others, we semi-hitch hiked: it *looks*
like hitching a ride, but you negotiate with the private drivers
who stop to take you where you want to go for a fixed fee: I
guess you'd call it a quasi-taxi.
Tamara snagged a ride, and we ended up driving for about half an
hour to an Armenian restaurant. Fare: 15 rubles, or 54 cents.
Tamara had never been to the restaurant before, and was aghast
when the doorman told us the meals were fixed price at 80 rubles
each, plus drinks and service. Tamara makes 140 rubles a month;
this meal would cost more than a month's salary.
It was, predictably, another extravagant meal, which I could only
pick at: massive plates of meat and fish, caviar, platters of
fresh raw vegetables, tough Armenian bread--- sort of like a
leavened pita--- plates of sauteed mushrooms, stir-fried potatoes
with onions, cognac, and bottles of apricot-flavored soda water.
Dinner took almost 4 hours.
A loud band played Russian and (mostly) Armenian folk songs. Many
of the latter sounded as if they could have been sung from the
top of a minaret, but for the synthesized drumbeats and
electronic instruments accompanying the singer to make the songs
danceable.
I was the only westerner in the restaurant; almost all the rest
of the men were Soviet Armenians, with Russian women, um, escorts
(the Armenian men would crush banknotes into their hands before
dancing with them). There were a few Armenian women.
As the evening went on, the music got louder, and the patrons
more lubricated. Most of them were doing vodka shots in rapid
succession, and having a great time. I have rarely seen so
animated or good-spirited a group.
And, man, did they dance. Mostly Armenian steps, hands in the
air, and with stylized arm motions: lots of hopping, kicking, and
fancy footwork. It looked part Greek, part Gypsy--- I guess 100%
Armenian.
As their spirits climbed along with their blood alcohol content,
the Armenian men began a strange custom: one would reach into a
pocket, pull out a fistful of ruble notes, and fling them into
the air, where they would flutter down and be danced on by all.
Every few minutes, another fistful of banknotes would soar up,
and then drift down to carpet the floor. There must have been
several hundred rubles on the floor when the song ended--- not
much in US terms, but more than a month's wages for an average
Muscovite!
When the set ended, a babushka scurried out from the kitchen to
gather the notes, practically ripping them from beneath the
dancers' feet as they left the floor. She gave the wad to the
bandleader, but from the smiling faces, I assume all the
restaurant help would share in the bounty.
The Armenians kept drinking and feeling good. During the next
set, the dancers upped the ante: 10- and 25-ruble notes began
flying through the air. After the set, the babushka practically
vacuumed them up.
And then, in the third set, some of the Armenians started
throwing US Dollars. I saw several 10's and a bunch of 1's. That
gave pause to even some of the Armenians, who looked a bit
shocked at the growing pile of money beneath their feet.
I guess the idea--- besides rewarding the house--- was to show
how carefree you are, and how rich you are, by throwing money to
the wind as if it meant nothing. But by the end of the third set,
it had gotten pretty far along, and reaching the point of serious
money. It was more than *I* ever would have flung to the wind.
Tamara saw my wide eyes. "They are Mafia," she said. "Armenian
Mafia."
OK.
We left shortly after the third set. On top of the two meals at
80 rubles each, the drinks added 4 more rubles apiece for a total
of 188 rubles. Tips are usually small, if given at all in the
USSR, but I rounded up to an even 200 rubles for the enormous
meal, abundant drink, and an evening's entertainment: The whole
shebang cost $7.24.
We took a bus back to Tamara's apartment (she paid my 15 kopeck
fare), and then I left for my hotel again by metro; another 15
kopecks.
The entire outing, from start to finish, with all transportation
included, cost me under $8.00.
svet.362dejanr,
==========
tojerry/russia #1017, from flanga, 2367 chars, Fri Jun 21 14:31:38 1991
----------
The Conference Opens
At registration, I ran into Levon Amdilyan again; he walked me
through the process, getting me my Speaker's badge and the
attendee premium he was most proud of: an ICF "Meeting in Moscow"
T Shirt.
The first scheduled event was a press conference given by the ICC
to describe the Forum to a mostly Soviet press corps. Levon
asked me if I would attend; of course I would.
I walked the modest exhibition hall (booths were still being set
up) to orient myself. Here are the US companies scheduled to
attend:
Apple
Association of PC User Groups
Borland
Business Broadcasters
BYTE
Computerland
Conner Peripherals
Cray Research
Digital Research
EDventure Holdings
Gartner Group
Hancock Venture Partners
Intel
Lotus
Mayfield Fund
Mediagenic
Nantucket
National Pacific Fund
Origin Systems
PC Magazine
Seagate
Simon & Schuster
Tecap
Unix International
US Sprint
Zeos
A handful of there--- maybe 6 or 7--- are actually exhibiting. Of
the US companies exhibiting, Seagate and Zeos have the largest
booths and the most obvious presence.
When it was time for the press conference, I left the exhibit
hall and went to the press auditorium. It seated perhaps 200
people, and was nearly full. Levon, a member of the Academy of
Sciences (co-founder of the ICC), Greg Herrick (CEO of Zeos) and
a representative of Intel were seated on stage. I moved to the
front to take one of the few remaining seats.
"Fred!" It was Levon. He'd seen me in the crowd. "Come up here
and join us!"
"You mean to be a presenter at the press conference?" I asked.
"Yes, yes. Come up, please."
Ulp.
So, switching gears quickly, I took a seat on the stage. Levon
introduced BYTE in wonderful, glowing terms, and it was good to
be presented as a player instead of just as a participant. I
winged it as best I could.
So what did all that Soviet fame and glory lead to? Well, the
first immediate effect was a request for an "in depth interview"
the next day by a reporter from (wait for it) "The Weekly
Radical."
No, I am not kidding.
Even stranger, when The Weekly Radical eventually conducted the
interview, it was the meekest, mildest Q&A I've ever had. Not a
single political question: they all were softball questions, sort
of a personality profile of BYTE itself. "Where are you printed?
How many editors? How is BYTE created?" That sort of thing.
Man, this is weird.
svet.363dejanr,
==========
tojerry/russia #1018, from flanga, 2849 chars, Fri Jun 21 14:32:37 1991
----------
After the Fact
I'm writing this in the terminal in Frankfurt. Just arrived by a
Lufthansa 737 (with a fake every-other-seat-empty business
class). Exit from Moscow was very smooth, with few of the
bureaucratic hassles I ran into last year. Smooth flight, good
breakfast. Good.
Rest of the stay in Moscow was fabulous: one of the best trips I
ever had, anywhere.
On the business side, my presentation was a seeming success, with
a packed room, and eager questions afterwards. I was interviewed
on camera by two television channels--- one state-run, the other
the first commercial channel in the Soviet Union.
I got to scout the modest exhibition thoroughly, attended a
number of interesting lectures and seminars, and got to speak at
length with many, many Soviets in the computer industry to help
get a better understanding of what's happening there.
I also got to visit the offices of Paragraph, the SU's
most-successful software company, and spent a delightful evening
with Paragraph's director, Stepan Pachikov and his wife Svetlana,
in their apartment, depleting Stepan's stock of English beer and
munching fresh strawberries and cherries from Svetlana's parent's
farm, "28 hours south of Moscow by fast train."
I also finally connected with Alexander, "Sasha," the other half
of the pair of superb guides I'd been fortunate to have last
year. Alexander and his family, and I and my family, have
remained friends over the intervening year, exchanging letters
and small gifts by mail. His 8-year-old son, Dmitri, and my
8-year-old daughter Courtney, are pen pals.
Shasha's been promoted in the last year. He's now Chief
Programmer for Avionica, a state-run business that produces
software (for all aspects of the state aviation effort:
in-flight, ground operations, and manufacturing). He works mostly
in Modula and Pascal, with some assembler. He got his first-ever
AT--- the first computer he's had on his desk for his own use---
within the last year.
I ended up sleeping over as a guest of honor at Shasha's mother's
apartment, after a long, wonderful, evening of food, drink,
conversation, and a veritable shower of gifts for me to bring
home: two bottles of very different vodkas from various ethnic
regions within the USSR, a beautiful batik (paint on silk)
picture of a flower hand-drawn by Shasha's wife (also called
Svetlana; "Sveta"), hand-made (also by Sveta) decorated
leather-and-metal bracelets and earrings for my wife and
daughter, toys and chocolates for the kids, a collection of
souvenir postcards of Moscow for me---- on and on. I was
overwhelmed with the warmth and generosity these people showed
me. It was one of the most memorable evenings I have ever had.
All in all, it was a great trip, with lots of good business, and
an incredible unexpected outpouring of affection. I'm still
feeling numb, but very good.
svet.364dejanr,
==========
tojerry/russia #1019, from flanga, 5076 chars, Fri Jun 21 14:34:09 1991
----------
[this is an unedited draft of what will be my editorial in the
August issue of BYTE]
=============
Moscow's Second Annual Computer Forum
The Soviet computer industry has matured enormously in the last
twelve months
I'm writing this on a laptop in the terminal at Frankfurt,
Germany. I've just gotten off a flight from Moscow, and have
several hours before my flight to Boston departs. I was in Moscow
to attend and speak at the Second Annual International Computer
Forum, one of a growing number of computer trade shows in the
Soviet Union.
Last year's trip to Moscow--- my first--- was an eye-opening
experience (see "The Russians Are Coming," p. xxx of the XXX 1990
issue). I came away convinced that the Soviet Union has enough
superlative programming talent and training to make it a
world-leader. The impediments to the Soviet computer industry's
success in the world market have nothing to do with intrinsic
abilities or interests, but everything to do with the
now-well-known economic and political problems of the Soviet
Union.
But despite these problems, positive changes are afoot. Some
large-scale examples: Soviet citizens now can tune in commercial
television and radio channels, and read any of a large and
rapidly-growing number of privately-owned, independent magazines
and newspapers. Private shops have sprung up all over Moscow,
selling American cigarettes, Asian tape recorders, and western
clothing.
The Soviet computer industry also has made remarkable progress in
a year. At last year's Forum, the most impressive Soviet-made
hardware was a couple of XT clones, and several 8-bit data
acquisition boards. This year, the show's most impressive
hardware was the 68030-based "Besta Workstation," made by
Oversun. Oversun (get it?) is a joint venture of the Soviet
Academy of Sciences and the company that makes Zil limousines.
Made in Moscow using surface-mount technology, the Besta is a
credible, affordable Unix (V5.4) box: a 68030 or ('020) operating
at 33 MHz (or 25 MHz), with an FPU, up to 128 Mb of RAM, up to
1.6 Gb of hard drive, 9 I/O ports, Ethernet and SCSI controllers,
a VME-standard bus, 1280x1024 non-interlaced graphics with 2Mb of
video RAM--- the specs go on for pages, and are world-class. Base
price for a stripper system is $4600. What a difference a year
makes.
On the software front, Stepan Pachikov, the peripatetic CEO of
Paragraph--- quite possibly the premier software company in the
Soviet Union--- briefed me on Paragraph's recent advances.
Paragraph has made a name for itself in "Cyrillization" programs
that convert Western software into Russian; Paragraph now sells
"Russian Word," a Cyrillic version of Microsoft Word, under
license from Microsoft. Several laser printer manufacturers and
word processor vendors are also interested in Paragraph's
extensive library of Cyrillic fonts. The company also has made a
name for itself in script recognition--- reading normal,
unbroken, fluid handwriting--- and in advanced applications of
more standard character-recognition. For example, it's likely
that Paragraph's pen-input software will be incorporated into one
or possibly two new laptops within the next year. And one of the
world's leading makers of fax boards is negotiating to acquire
Paragraph's proven technology for converting even muddy,
low-quality fax messages into clean, correct ASCII.
Other interesting items at the Forum included: a TSR "intelligent
spell and grammar checker for Russian;" a sound card and speech
synthesis software that can teach you to speak Russian; expert
system development tools; a way of producing color scanned images
with a black and white scanner using color filters and "color
synthesizing software;" myriad data acquisition products;
specialized and general text editors; tutorial
generators/software demonstrators; anti viral/data-integrity
software; email gateways (to the west); and more. Some of these
products are available now outside the Soviet Union (we'll check
out the most interesting, and bring you further information in
future issues); other vendors are looking for distributors.
As companies come on-line and begin to succeed, a number of
individuals are succeeding, too. Despite major handicaps--- a
chief programmer for a state agency who only last year finally
got a desktop PC for his own use at work; a librarian in the
Academy of Sciences whose eyeglasses are broken and who cannot
get them repaired; a general director of a software company (he'd
be called a CEO in the west) well-paid by Soviet standards but
earning the equivalent of US$27 a month; and so on--- the Soviet
people I have had the privilege of knowing are getting by with a
kind of grace under pressure that makes me admire them
enormously.
I can't say if the people associated with the Soviet computer
industry are typical of Soviet society as a whole. But for
everyone's sake, I hope they are: with talented people like this
working to make things better, the future of the Soviet computer
industry--- and indeed all of Soviet Society--- looks more
hopeful than ever.
svet.365dexi,
Hi!
Da li ste gledali dveselinovica na NTV-u. Sta dalje :)
normalno dveselinovica pothitno proglasiti za MINISTRA INFORMISANJA.
Ziveo 32XDVV svi smo s tobom.
pozdrav dexi :)
svet.366dusan,
>>Da li ste gledali dveselinovica na NTV-u. Sta dalje :)
šta kaže, šta kaže?
svet.367dejanr,
>> Da li ste gledali dveselinovica na NTV-u
Meni rekoše da će to biti u vestima u 19h i ja gledah, gledah... Posle
sam gledao nešto drugo i slučajno pogledam NTV, kad ono... nisam baš
video od početka ali lepo je ispalo :)
svet.368zonjic,
Evo malo zipovanog koda sa SOC-CULTURE-YUGOSLAVIA
To je, naime doslo za zadnjih dvadesetak dana.
scy.zip