razno.1askripka,
reply: forum.17, poruka 12.343
=- Sem toga, prvi ozbiljni slučaj se dogodio 1947, odakle im tehnika i uopšte
=- povod da urade takvo nešto?
Da ne upadam u raspravu o suštini, već samo da dodam nešto. I
tehnika i znanje su postojali i pre 1947. Postoji kompletna
dokumentacija, naravno od onog što je bilo moguće 'ukrasti', koja
uključuje i fotografije i filmske materijale o tome.
Radi se o tome (priča je jako duga, ja ću je extremno skratiti) da
je Hitler imao projekte, kao i par izrađenih prototipa onoga što mi
zovemo 'leteći tanjiri'. U pitanju su bile letilice kružnog oblika,
veoma raznovrsnog načina kretanja, nepoznatog mehanizma
upravljanja. Ono što je u svemu simpatično kada to prvi put
pogledate je kukasti krst na donjem delu letilice... :)
Ako nekog zanima, pokušaću da se setim detalja i napišem nešto više
o tome...
Btw, deo materijala je relativno skoro prikazan i na našoj
televiziji (BK), pa je možda neko imao priliku da pogleda...
razno.2dr.iivan,
Odgovor na KOMUNIKACIJE.10:strani.sistemi.12, miljan
> Ne stvarno, ja sam valjda entuzijasta, ne verujem ni da su svi
> hrvati losi, i sto se toga tice, jedno pitanje: Da li je neko imao
> bliske susrete sa nekim hrvatom na internetu koji je 'normalan'??
Ja licno nisam, ali jedan moj prijatelj je par puta razgovarao sa
Hrvatima. Jednom prilikom je razgovarao sa Hrvaticom i na kraju mu je
trazila kasetu Dorda Balasevica. Drugi put je u pitanju bio Hrvat i
lepo su se ispricali. Sve u svemu nije imao puno (ako ih je imao)
negativnih iskustava.
Btw, ja inace mislim da su Hrvati impulsivniji od nas, mada nikada ne
treba generalizovati.
Za one koji misle da smo 'nebeski narod' i da se psovka upucena Hrvatu od
strane Srbina na Internetu ne moze dogoditi, preporucujem da se podsete
dogadaja ispred hrvatske ambasade posle utakmice sa Hrvatskom u Spaniji.
razno.3dr.iivan,
Odgovor na KOMUNIKACIJE.10:strani.sistemi.19, dr.grba
> >> hrvati losi, i sto se toga tice, jedno pitanje: Da li je neko imao
> bliske >> susrete sa nekim hrvatom na internetu koji je 'normalan'??
>
> Imao sam ja; trebalo bi da znate da i tamo ima ljudi koji su
> protivnici totalitarizma, kao sto ih ima i ovde. U istom smo sosu,
> nema razlike.
Ja mislim da ima malo. Mislim da je kod nas za nijansu bolja situacija.
Ako nista drugo, mislim da vise ljudi zna na cemu je, nego u Hrvatskoj.
Da se razumemo, nisam pristalica ovog rezima, samo mislim da realno
gledam situaciju.
Pogledaj koliki je procenat ljudi glasao za Tudmana, da li bi toliko
ljudi glasalo za SM ? Zatim, pogledaj koliko se ljudi tamo kandidovalo
za predsednika, a koliko se vec sada sprema za kandidovanje za naseg
predsednika ? Cim ima vise kandidata, znaci da vise ljudi misli da
moze dobiti izbore, odnosno da je manja sansa za pobedu sadasnjeg
predsednika ili kandidata njegove partije.
razno.4dr.iivan,
>
> Kako i kod nas, tako i kod njih ima lokalnih Tv stanica koje nisu pod
> direktnim diktatom drzave. Kao sto RTS nije obavestavala o protestima
> i sta sve nije radila godinama kao i rezimska stampa koja jedina ima
> mrezu za celu teritoriju, tako su i u Americi CNN i ostale velike
> kompanije obavestavale o UFO dogadjanjima, dakle nikako, dok su ostale
Ali, tu moze postojati jos jedno objasnjenje. Lokalna Tv stanica tezi
vecem publicitetu vise nego drzavna, pogotovo sto drzavna vec ima
isti. Prema tome, lokalna Tv ce jedva docekati da se bilo sta dovede
u vezu sa UFO i prva o tome izvesti, dok ce drzavna odbijati da objavi
makar i malo sumnjive izvestaje o UFO iz razloga sto ih ima vec previse
sumnjivih, pa nece da kvare reputaciju.. E sad, moguce je da se bas 13.
marta desilo nesto sto je manje sumnjivo, a vise verovatno, pa i CNN
o tome rekla koju rec. Sledece pitanje je zasto su toliko kasnili, na
koje moze biti vise odgovora.
E sad, znam da je sve ovo malo verovatno, tj. da je vise verovatna tvoja
varijanta, ali nije nemoguce!
> prenosile. Medjutim, kazu da se polako otvaraju i da prave specijalne
> emisije na tu temu gde dovode eminentne goste i sa druge strane. Ranije
> su davali jednostrano, nekog iz vojske ili iz neke vladine
> organizacije. A to je krenulo (istovremeno, kod svih tih velikih
> medijskih kompanija) sa onim filmom sto si pokupio, dakle pricom koja se
> dogodila 13 marta, a 19 Juna je prvi put to uopste pomenuto.
Zanima me kako tumacis to da su bas sada poceli da izvestavaju o tome
i kako to da su neke Tv stanice imale ranije izvestaj o tome, a druge
kasnije, i to u isto vreme? Cini mi se da si nesto o tome i rekao
ranije, moze biti da sam presao na brzinu. Medutim, najvise me zanima,
zasto su odlucili da to sve bas sada izbace na povrsinu. Sprema li se
nesto vece, da li je ovo samo priprema?
razno.5nenad,
-> #3, dr.iivan> Pogledaj koliki je procenat ljudi glasao za Tudmana, da li bi
> toliko ljudi glasalo za SM ?
Saberi ovde glasove Šešelja i SPS-a i dobiješ sličnu cifru. Tamo
su samo "nazadne", ksenofobične i nedemokratske snage u jednoj
stranci, u jednom centru moći. Naša prednost je samo u tome što
je ovakva konstelacija (sa dva ipak koliko-toliko odvojena centra
"moći") ranjivija.
> Cim ima vise kandidata, znaci da vise ljudi misli da
> moze dobiti izbore, odnosno da je manja sansa za pobedu sadasnjeg
> predsednika ili kandidata njegove partije.
A koji su to naši kandidati? Vuk koji uvek misli da može da
dobije izbore i nekoliko zaludnika...
Ne zaboravi da je Hrvatska pod Tuđmanom i HDZ-om dobila rat,
ostvarila nezavisnu državu, sa značajno smanjenim brojem
"nehrvatskog" stanovništva.
Mi smo vodeći politiku koju su personifikovali Milošević i Šešelj
dobili milion i po izbeglica, izgubili rat i ostali bez države, a
OPET toliko puno ljudi glasa za njih.
razno.6petronio,
-> #1, askripka+| Radi se o tome (priča je jako duga, ja ću je extremno skratiti) da
+| je Hitler imao projekte, kao i par izrađenih prototipa onoga što mi
+| zovemo 'leteći tanjiri'. U pitanju su bile letilice kružnog oblika,
+| veoma raznovrsnog načina kretanja, nepoznatog mehanizma
+| upravljanja. Ono što je u svemu simpatično kada to prvi put
+| pogledate je kukasti krst na donjem delu letilice... :)
Znam za tu priču, čak u zadnjih nekoliko godina ima slučajeva
da su ljudi koji su bili otimani od strane vanzemaljaca prijavljivali
da su na brodu videli i humanoide sa nazi uniformama.
Nadovezao si se na pogresan momenat, priča je bila da li CIA namerno
izaziva te incidente, budući da još ima živih svedoka koji svedoče
da su 1947 u Rozvelu pored broda videli i vanzemaljce, isključuje tu
mogućnost. Uostalom, vrlo ali zaista vrlo teško je izvodljivo da oni
te incidente prave namerno, ne vidim nikakvu logiku u tome..
Naime, ako zaista ne postoje drugi vidovi inteligencije u svemiru,
a oni već 50 godina namerno provociraju da mi mislimo da ima, pri tom
tvrde da ih nema, šta je sledeće?
Kad bi oni imali takvu tehnologiju da se ogromni brodovi kreću
neverovatnim brzinama, od materijala koji još nije vidjen na zemlji,
mi bi odavno gledali američku zastavu svuda oko nas..
razno.7petronio,
-> #4, dr.iivan+| Ali, tu moze postojati jos jedno objasnjenje. Lokalna Tv stanica tezi
+| vecem publicitetu vise nego drzavna, pogotovo sto drzavna vec ima
+| isti. Prema tome, lokalna Tv ce jedva docekati da se bilo sta dovede
Nije u tome problem, ne svodi se sve na vesti o pojavama,
u pitanju su emisije sa video materijalom u kojoj učesnici
emisije koji nisu neki anonimusi, raspravljaju o tematici..
To ti je kao kad bi rekao da Milan St. Protic lupeta gluposti
jer ga nikad nema na RTS-u.. (ili neko drugi, nije bitno)
Pre jedno dva meseca, možda tri, nešto se dogodilo u Makedoniji.. ;)
O tome je samo Tv Politika kod nas prenosila sa direktnim uključenjem
iz Skoplja, priča je bila da je gotovo celo Skoplje videlo svemirski
brod, e sad, on kaže da je makedonska Tv dala i slike (Tv politika nije)
I tako je to išlo 2-3 dana na politici (bukvalno prva vest u vestima),
i valjda je na kraju rečeno kako je to ustvari bila masovna
halucinacija.. ;)
+| Zanima me kako tumacis to da su bas sada poceli da izvestavaju o tome
+| i kako to da su neke Tv stanice imale ranije izvestaj o tome, a druge
+| kasnije, i to u isto vreme? Cini mi se da si nesto o tome i rekao
+| ranije, moze biti da sam presao na brzinu. Medutim, najvise me zanima,
+| zasto su odlucili da to sve bas sada izbace na povrsinu. Sprema li se
+| nesto vece, da li je ovo samo priprema?
Pa to je sumnjivo u celoj toj priči..
Danas je kod njih dan nezavisnosti, u isto vreme i 50-godišnjica
pada svemirskog broda u Rozvelu..
Čitam nesto vesti i pričaju da je Lary King imao specijalnu emisiju
gde je pokušao da 'razjasni slučaj'. Nakon nevidjene reklamu za tu
emisiju, kažu da je ustvari išla njegova ranija emisija na tu temu
od pre 20 godina, ni jednu reč nije rekao u vezi novog saopštenja
vazduhoplovstva, nisu mogli da veruju..
Naravno, u toj emisiji nije razgovarao sa onima s' kojima je trebao
da razgovara, mada kažu da mu je završna reč bila jako dobra.. ;)
Ne znam šta da mislim.. trenutno verujem u sve to..
Gotovo sam siguran u neke stvari, u neke ne, ima i nekih gluposti
lansiranih namerno da bi ismejali celu priču..
Vreme će pokazati, a čini mi se (i ne samo meni) da je to vreme
jako blizu, do 2000. najkasnije, ne mogu da kazem sigurno.. ;)
razno.8petronio,
Upravo dobih interesantne vesti.. ;)
SCIENTIFIC PROOF TO BE PRESENTED THAT AN EXTRATERRESTRIAL CRAFT WAS
RECOVERED NEAR ROSWELL, N.M.
[CNI News received the following press release from Houston-based
researcher Derrel Sims on June 30. CNI News will report further details of
this story following the scheduled press conference on July 4.]
ROSWELL, NM (June 30, 1997) -- A press conference scheduled for 9:00 a.m.
July 4, 1997, at the Rearson Auditorium on the New Mexico Military
Institute Campus in Roswell, New Mexico, will present the results of
scientific tests performed on crash debris found near Roswell, New Mexico
fifty years ago that once and for all prove that the downed vehicle was not
of earth origin.
A research scientist from a major university involved in the testing will
be on hand to discuss the methodology and results of the isotopic ratio
tests of the Roswell debris. Supporting conclusions and a battery of tests
conducted by universities and national laboratories will be provided that
conclude the Rosewll debris is manufactured material of extraterrestrial
origin.
Paul Davids, Executive Producer of the Showtime film, "Roswell," is
sponsoring the presentation of this evidence during his program at the 50th
Anniversary. Along with images of the actual Roswell crash debris, the
chain of evidence will also be presented validating the Roswell incident as
the recovery of a crashed extraterrestrial vehicle.
CONTACT: derrel@holman.net (Derrel Sims)
razno.9legolas,
-> #2, dr.iivan>> Ja licno nisam, ali jedan moj prijatelj je par puta razgovarao sa
>> Hrvatima. Jednom prilikom je razgovarao sa Hrvaticom i na kraju
Da li ti vidiš šta ti pišeš??? Pa šta su oni? NLO, izumrle životinje
ili neki svetski političari? ;)
>> trazila kasetu Dorda Balasevica.
Jok, tražiće Riblju Čorbu ;)
>>dogadaja ispred hrvatske ambasade posle utakmice sa Hrvatskom u Spaniji.
Ma to rade i sa drugim ambasadama (seti se Grčke i Američke). Ovo je
kao neki razlog za proslavu.
BTW, drago mi je da si pomenuo tu temu. Posle utakmice se nisam
osećao baš kao oni na ulici. Došlo mi je da se pokrijem ušima, a oni
kao slave. Ako želite prepisa ću vam Tijanićev tekst iz Građanina u
vezi sa tim. Možda će te reći : bah, ma koji Tijanić, ali ja sam se
sa njim složio 100%.
Naime, glavni zaključci su ovo:
1. Hrvatski tim je vrlo mlad i neiskusan, dok je naš sastavljen od
svetski poznatih igrača.
2. Hrvati su igrali vrlo požrtvovano, dok naši dekocentrisano i
odsutno.
3. Pobedili smo na sreću i Sašu, ali smo isto tako lako mogli da
izgubimo.
4. Ako mislite da je u našem timu pre utakmice bila nek tenzija,
prisetite se izjava naših košarkaša.
5. Pobeda je gotovo minimalna
Dakle, sve u svemu:
nisu hrvatski igrači dobri ili ja volim nešto njihovo pa ovo pišem.
Ne, naši igrači su veoma loše odigrali i nisu zaslužili onoliko
slavlje koje su im Beograđani pružili. Šta bi bilo da su hrvati
dobili? Naše košarkaše to ne bi pogodilo. Oni su tamo da nađu mesto u
nekom boljem timu.
To je, uostalom i razlog što jedino Saša i igra dobro.
Salut
Legolas
razno.10superhik,
-> #6, petronio=:> a oni već 50 godina namerno provociraju da mi mislimo da ima,
=:> pri tom tvrde da ih nema, šta je sledeće?
Moja teorija je mnogo jednostavnija:
Pretpostavka je da inteligenta bića van naše planete zaista
postoje.
Imamo dva slučaja ili da vlade sarađuju sa njima ili ih se
plaše.
Ako sarađuju (istraživanja ljudi, testiranje svega i svačega),
onda je za verovati da imaju dil sa alienima, pa ne smeju da ga
objave u javnosti.
Ako ne sarađuju a znaju za njih onda je najlogičnija
pretpostavka da negiraju njihovo postojanje da ne bi zastrašili
stanovništvo.
Neka moja fikcija je da je pre 40-ak godina došao alien i
predložio naša tehnologija u zamenu za mešanje naše i vaše
vrste. Zašto do toga nije došlo ?
=:> kreću neverovatnim brzinama, od materijala koji još nije
=:> vidjen na zemlji, mi bi odavno gledali američku zastavu svuda
=:> oko nas..
A sada je ne gledamo ? :(
razno.11bnikola,
-> #9, legolasIvkeb ovde
potpuno se slazem sa tobom ali posle utakmice sa Litvanijom doio sam tracak
nade.
razno.12petronio,
Pa šta su to dodjavola videli ameri? ;)
Phoenix Lights: Made in U.S.A.
Was it really an alien craft, or was
the U.S. Government testing public reaction to something
they built in Nevada? Perhaps we should consider the possibility that
it was both.
Seeing that 80% of its citizens believe that UFOs exist and are
visiting
our planet, the government may have decided to test
public reaction to one of their own. Of course, they would need a
contingency play if the public were to panic. Their plan might
have been to admit that the craft was in fact built by our government
and being flown by the United States Air Force. However,
they may have gotten the results they desired. The event didn't even
make major headlines until three months after it actually
happened and almost with a sort of "ho-hum" attitude. Eye-witnesses who
saw it simply accepted it as an alien space craft.
So why fly the craft over Phoenix? Phoenix is a fairly large city,
guaranteeing the government thousands of eye-witnesses and a
public reaction.
My thoughts exactly! I was just about to add this to my "Phoenix" post
but I'm glad someone did it so I didn't have to.
If you evaluate the probablilities, it comes out very likely that most of
the
crafts observed over Phoenix and other cities in that time frame were
MEANT to
be seen and video taped/photographed. It could have been a joint
alien-human
agenda, government/military only or alien in all respects but the recent
media
blitz does not seem coincidential...it has MEANING.
Why focus on Phoenix? Why not Gulf Breeze where just as many if not more
UFOs
are sighted AND filmed often and for years? Why not Hudson Valley? Why
Phoenix?
Like Budd Hopkins, this worries me too. It may be a set-up. Get
everyone
focused in a certain direction then pull the rug out from under them so
they
fall flat on their faces. That should make future UFO sightings and
abduction
claims harder to believe and turn a lot of people off when they hear even
the
word "UFO".
We must NEVER forget that public opinion, OUR opinions, are being
manipulated almost daily if not by the hour through print and the
idiot boxes. We are being manipulated by beings of unknown origins
as well as our own species we "elect" to office. We may not know who
wants what, who is doing what to who, how often and to what extent
but you can bet it IS being done to ALL of us.
Some who witnessed the Phoenix sightings knew it was going to
happen and knew exactly what they were suppose to do. Some were just
innocent bystanders who saw what they were suppose to see and reported
exactly what they saw precisely as predicted. This was no "accidential"
sighting, it was planned long before, executed according to plan and
monitored by numerous social feedback mediums such as internet forums
like
this one, interviews, surveys, etc. It was a social litmus test to see
how
people would react to a contained, localized mass sighting. (I knew this
when
I heard the reports and saw the video and photos.)
Perhaps a media blitz WAS planned following the sightings but the
Heaven's
Gate suicides messed things up so they decided to wait until that quieted
down. Had a media blitz of the Phoenix sightings occurred at the same
time
Applewhite's group committed suicide to be with some ETs, all hell WOULD
have
broken loose!!
I don't think the Heaven's Gate suicides were part of any government plan
and
it probably put a wrench in the works. They waited a few months and
proceeded with extensive media coverage. This may be the cause of the
delay
we are currently witnessing.
Other events are unfolding before our eyes even as we gaze wistfully into
the
night skies. Alliances are forming, new groups emerging and subsequent
phases
of some unknown agenda are being executed with the human psyche as the
main
focus. Is it to wake us from the coma or to yet another nightmare?
Yellowrose
(A good example of a news story about UFOs from the controlled press.
"They
are just doing their job! But who do they really work for?" --SW)
On 22 Jun 97 at 1:18, Ndunlks@aol.com wrote:
- SearchNet's IUFO Mailing List
.c The Associated Press
PHOENIX (AP) - The promise from Gov. Fife Symington sounded strange but
sincere, coming as it was from a ``Star Trek'' fan: a state probe into
the
mysterious lights reported over Phoenix three months ago.
``We're going to get to the bottom of it,'' Symington said during a
lunch
break Thursday from his federal fraud trial. ``We're going to find out
whether it was a UFO or whether it was an IFO - an identified flying
object.
We will get to the bottom of it.''
Reporters were skeptical, but aides said Symington really was putting
the
Department of Public Safety on the case. Reporters were even encouraged
to
ask about UFOs and the boomerang-shaped formation of lights.
While the obviously confused public safety agency promised information
when
they had it, Symington's office said the Republican governor would
discuss
the UFO business after his trial had recessed for the day.
So the reporters came. And at least two television stations were
carrying
the event live when Symington announced that a suspect was in custody.
In came the alien, a glittery pink and silver one with a big head and
big
googly eyes. Underneath the costume was Symington's chief of staff, Jay
Heiler.
``This just goes to show you guys are entirely too serious,'' Symington
said
as aides laughed heartily.
On the evening of March 13, many people in the Phoenix area and as far
north
as Prescott reported seeing the lights. The Federal Aviation
Administration
reported nothing unusual on its screens.
(No mention of the fact tha FAA controllers reportedly saw the UFOs
although
they did not appear on their radar screens. --SW)
This week, various media outlets have run stories on the lights.
Between TV
and Hollywood, aliens have been hot. And July 8 marks the 50th
anniversary
of the day a rancher near Roswell, N.M., found debris that many UFO
buffs
believe was from a flying saucer.
An Air Force investigation found that the debris probably came from a
once
top-secret balloon designed to monitor the atmosphere for evidence of
Soviet
nuclear tests.
AP-NY-06-20-97 0728EDT
Another NASA employee was killed a few days ago in Palo Alto by a couple
of
unidentified gunmen. Richard Hoagland says that there are two groups
within
NASA (and probably throughout all governments and intelligence agencies
throughout the world.) This MAY be an indication of an ongoing battle for
the
Truth that continues as we speak. --SW)
.c The Associated Press
WASHINGTON (AP) - The director of a space exploration program at NASA was
killed when a tree fell on his car during a violent thunderstorm.
Jurgen H. Rahe, 57, science director for NASA's solar system exploration
program, was killed Wednesday night as he drove near his home in Potomac,
Md.,
a Washington suburb.
Rahe was in charge of the overall management of the National Aeronautics
and
Space Administration's program of sending robot craft to explore planets
beyond the Earth.
He was the general manager of the Galileo spacecraft mission to Jupiter
and of
the Mars Pathfinder, a mission that will include an unmanned landing on
Mars
on July 4.
Wesley T. Huntress Jr., NASA associate administrator for space science,
said
Rahe was ``an extremely dedicated scientist.''
``His legacy to the exploration of space is large, and I like to think
that
Jurgen's ideas, hopes and dreams are aboard many of the spacecraft now
headed
to the frontiers of our solar system,'' said Huntress.
Brian K. Muirhead, Pathfinder deputy project manager and flight system
manager, said in California that his group was dedicating the Pathfinder
landing on Mars to Rahe's memory.
``We've lost a very special gentleman whose wisdom and experience we will
greatly miss,'' said Muirhead.
Rahe joined the NASA headquarters staff in 1989, serving as chief
scientist
for planetary astronomy and in other positions. Prior to coming to
Washington,
he was a staff member at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory where he worked on
a
series of solar system exploration missions and conducted research using
the
Hubble Space Telescope.
Before coming to the United States, Rahe was a professor of astronomy at
the
University of Erlangen-Nuremberg, Germany. For a time, he also was
director of
the Remeis Observatory in Bamberg, Germany.
Rahe also published a number of books and studies in scientific journals,
and
headed committees for the International Astronautical Union.
He is survived by his wife and daughter.
AP-NY-06-19-97 1953EDT
Subject: Strange Events In Phoenix
From: jmoore3@ix.netcom.com(John Moore )
Date: 20 Jun 1997 07:21:44 GMT
Message-ID: <5odb28$4gh@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com
Strange Events in Phoenix
Yesterday, June 18, several large propane explosions
rocked Phoenix Arizona. At the same time all major TV
Networks ran in depth stories on a large alleged UFO
seen over Phoenix 3 months ago on March 13. Reports
today, June 19, indicate large numbers of FBI agents
in Phoenix.
The alleged UFO photographed and seen by many residents
did not exhibit swift or radical high speed direction
changes but seemed to float quietly above the city. The
vehicle was wedge-shaped somewhat similar to the B-2
however much larger and without visible or audible
engines. Residents described the craft as extremely
quiet, even quieting the surrounding nighttime noises.
Such descriptions are reminiscent of noise-cancellation
devices.
Today June 19 Arizona Governor Fife Symington announced
an official investigation into the alleged UFO. After
this morning's announcement the governor proceeded to
a hearing on improprieties in his office. After the hearing
he then cancelled the UFO investigation started this morning,
June 19.
All of these events today and yesterday are related in some
strange way. The first question must regard the simultaneous
running of a 3 month old UFO story by all TV Networks. How
could all of them decide to run the same ancient story on the
same day? The second question regards the multiple propane
tank explosions and numerous FBI agents in Phoenix.
The art of the magician is the art of diversion. The old UFO
story is given lavish attention but the exploding propane tanks
and FBI agents are not. It is reasonable to consider the propane
explosions as deliberate, perhaps further acts of domestic
"terrorism". In addition the alleged Phoenix UFO did not exhibit
typical UFO manuvers and seems to have some terrestrial design
attributes.
If the UFO is a "Black" project then it is protected by National
Security. It does however provide an interesting cover story.
Why would a "Black" project be given so much exposure just to
hide comparatively mundane propane tank explosions?
Hi, Everyone,
I just wanted to put my two cents worth in about Arizona.. I wonder why
If
all those people saw the lights in Arizona and Ohio that the governors
and
even the President didn't find out what the heck they were..If I were the
governor or the President I would consider it to be of national security.
Those things were 2 blocks long on eather side. Wouldn't that be enough
to
cause an alarm. Don't our tax dollors pay for them to protect us again
some type of national security breach? If the craft would have been
Russian or Chinese they would have been right there on there buts...!!
They
don't consider it to be even of any upmost urgency . Well if they
don't
there are several reasons why..
1. It was a testing of a new aircraft they have hidden!!
2. They know it was an alien craft because they are involved with them.
3. There is a big cover up.!
4. They are afraid of alien inviasion and don't want to alarm the people
of
the world!!
5. They just don't give a darn!!
I did notice a coincidence between Roswell and Arizona.. They both
reported
it then covered it up real quick.
Sincerely
Terry Tim
Subject: UFO's
Since the 50s UFO sightings have been reported, and I'm sure that with
the
inciedent which occurred in 1947, where a down craft was reported as UFO
then
when the higher brass comes into the picture it changes into a 'Weather
Balloon'
story.
Its obvious to me that our government, or a faction of it, set up by out
government, knows way more than they are ever going to tell.
These objects seen in Arizona, I'm sure are known to the Government, and
they
know exactly what its like. Does anyone think for one moment that if our
skies
were ever invaded by 'enemy' aircrafts, intent on doing harm, that our
technology would not pick it up and quickly fighters would be sent to
intercept?
In 1951, over the Capital building, it was reported that around 12
objects were
detected by radar, when US Airforce jets were dispatched and came near to
the
objects, one officer begins to describe them, when suddenly, in a blink
of an
eye, they dissappear. When the jets dispersed and returned to base, they
returned just as quickly as they had dissappeared.
The conclusion was that it was NOT atmospheric changes nor balloons, but
whatever it was, it appeared to have intellingence, due to the manuevers
they
exhibited when the 'fighters' came.
Given even this, does it seem possible that our government would just
say..."oh
well, lets forget it, if its not shooting at us, its not important to
find out
what it is or who it is...!"
NO WAY! No less are they curious about them then we are, the difference
is that
they have technology which I'm sure enables them to understand things we
cant!
It's even obvious that when any State Official, or even Military
Personel, or
even Commercial Pilots as in Passenger Pilots, of major airlines, do see
any
such sightings, they are treated with 'punishment' tactics.
State officials are given 'orders', "stay off this search...", and then
we hear
a report..."State Officials say that there is NO government investigation
on any
sighting of UFO's and that they are just as curious as we are to learn,
if
anything what is going on...but no data has been recovered on any actual
UFO!"
I say 'BULL', from what we know, there is no object that will hover or
slow
themselves to 30mph but helicopters, and what helicopter do we know of
that will
light up at night and produce a triangle type shape? NONE!
Not to mention the incredible speeds by which they seem to dissappear in.
Something is out there, what it is, I KNOW our Government knows, but they
will
NEVER lend themselves to uncover the mystery for us.
So, what do we have left, our own resources, I wish we had our own labs
so that
any object found in a host, as those metallic objects found in some
noses or
necks.
Or our own pilots to go up on a moments notice, who will SEARCH to
determine up
close what the objects look like from a closer view...with added cameras
on the
aircraft.
Then there's the technology, radar sophistication, so that we can also do
our
own radar detection. Why leave it to the government agencies which will
deny
any such detection.
Well, I'm sure its understood what I mean.
Like millions of us, I'm tired of so much 'WHITEWASH' of these sightings,
and
we're not babies, I'm sure that the majority of us will handle the news
of
aliens visiting us, quite well.
Tho I do understand that this is the MAJOR issue with our government
exposing
any knowledge of UFO's.
I know how I feel, I wonder how many would feel given such an information
that
we 'do' have aliens in our midst?
Thank You...
Victor
What a week. Hoagland's prediction of Mars Pathfinder. His subsequent
prediction of "all eyes on Phoenix" followed by the media blitz of
the Phoenix sightings 3 months ago. In my opinion, three things may have
happened with the media.
1- The stories were released at the same time because it was arranged
this way. No one media wanted to "go public" with this story unless
all of the others did, eliminating any fringe finger-pointing. this,
of course leads to the question of why. The answer is simple.
2- A button was pushed. A command from "on high" was given. From who...
who knows. It is simply too coincidental for all of them to have run
this 3 month old story. It is too coincidental that all of them had
prepared in advance each of the stories that they had run. Therefore,
I believe that it is safe to assume that the stories were run for
a purpose. Their airing on national television was agenda driven.
But what is the agenda?
Do they know something we do not? Is it a trick to set up all
ufologists? Personally, I do not think the Phoenix sightings
are a trick. I do not believe that they were military. Military
likes to hide their toys, not bring them into the open.
There is an agenda, but it is not one of the media, nor is it
one of the military. The agenda is driven by two parties that
we know very little about: the visitors and those who are in
contact with them. Call them Magestic 12. Call them Illuminati.
Whatever. This group, and the visitors, are working together
too bring the alien presense out into open.
Do I know this for a fact? No. This is an assumption that I must
make due to the events that have transpired.
First of all, in regard to the aliens or visitors, who else could fly
such a large ship or armada of ships over Phoenix without radar
picking them up? Sure, the military could have a large Stealth-like
plane that could hide from radar, but the military is secretive,
not an "out in the open" kind of entity.Therefore, the Phoenix sighting
must be of the visitors.
Secondly, there must be a single group that hides in the shadows,
above and beyond the general population that pulls major strings.
Richard Hoagland said that one of the major newspapers that
ran the Phoenix story changed their feature story to the Phoenix
story at 10pm the night before. If this is true, then I can assume
that all of the other media (CNN, ABC NBC, etc) had a similar
thing happen to them. They were all asked to run their pre-prepared
Phoenix story, which resulted in the media blitz that all of us have
seen.
Now the question to ask is why. The answer is simple. Something is
happening. The agenda of the those in control, those in contact with
the aliens, has changed. Something inevitible is going to happen
that they cannot stop. No longer can they hide the American
public from the existence of the alien presence. So, in an attempt
to prepare them American public, and eliminate hysteria, the
stories were all simultaneously released. March 13th was the
end of the secrecy, and the beginning of the awakening to the
reality of the visitors, not because of our hidden friends, but
because the aliens, the visitors, have forced this reality
to come forth.
Now, this may all be fantasy. There could be no agenda driven
aliens. Majestic 12 could also be a myth. The lights over
Phoenix could have been a military experiment to get a
reaction from the public. The media blitz could have been a
filler for a potentially news-boring Wednesday. Richard Hoagland's
coincidental mentioning of "all eys on Phoenix" could be only
that: a coincidence. Time will tell...
In response to many people that have posted information:
Keith M. - with all of the reports on the internet regarding the
military movement and the reports that Bill Hamilton has provided
for us regarding his interviews with people who have seen NASA/
KGB/government agents in the Phoenix area, I would have to say that
your hypothesis about the possible landing of an alien craft could be
very true.
Terry R.- I agree that both Roswell and Phoenix do share the
same storyline: major sighting (or crash of UFO), followed by
a cover-up. As Keith mentioned above, I find that both of
you may have hit upon something. An alien vehicle crashed,
causing the governemnt to move in and cover it up. Could all of
thie military silence be because an alien craft HAS actually landed?
When Art Bell had James Hertag on, he mentioned that in the Spring or
Summer of 1997, there would be direct contact with the beings
in the SW. Could this be what he was talking about?
Alan F. - Regarding your question about crop circles. Yes, you print out
a picture, and then spin it using a turn table or an electric fan. In
regard to the alternative view of the rapture, I will try to find
it and post it for you. Perhaps someone else can post it as well.
Charlotte D.- thank you for the info on Mary Summer Rain. I will try to
check that out.
Jeroen - Thanks for the Hoagland response.
Jilain - Thanks for the NASA budget.
John G Jr. - that was very nice of you to put Mr. John Bro's
photography on your page. Very well done. I, however, am
puzzled about many of the photos. These objects seem to be
multiples or copies of themselves. This duplication of
many of the objects makes me suspicious of their authenticity.
I do not mean that Mr. Bro has faked these photos, but that
mny of them could be glare on the glass of the camcorder.
I know that Jim Lilatoso(please correct my atrocious spelling) has
done some analysis of these photos, and found them to be
photos of actual craft. These, however, were singularities,
not what appear to be glare on the glass. Please comment on this
if you would.
Kwint - Thank you very much for answering all of my questions
regarding Phoenix, the Phoenicians, and the Phoenix, plus
providing the web sites.
Mary E. - Art Bell HAS to steer Richard. What he really needs
is to replay Richard to Richard one night so that he can experience
what all of us do! Richard is a genius, in my opinion. Unfortunately,
too much in the brain tends to cause unnecessary outflow.
Peter C. - thank you for the info on the Phoenicians.
Frank S. - I also e-mailed CNN about their Talk Back Live. They did
fine coverage of the event in general. It is just that lady (Susan?)
that is incapable of presenting this information in a proper way.
Steve W. - Mr. King of the Posts, I have to agree with you that
the entire Phoenix event has be pre-planned. I also am a large
fan of "The Andreasson Affair". I will, in fact, conclude this
e-mail talking about Bette.
Bette Andreasson was and is a Born Again Christian. After all of
the abductions and regressions had happened, the poor woman lost
her family, friends, and job. She had to relocate, and eventually
re-married to another abductee.
My point about Bette is that she fully accepts that the aliens
are here. In fact, in one of her more recent abductions, she
consciously remembers being taken spiritually out of her body,
and arriving on a craft that was hover above the earth.
On the ship, walking with her down a corridor, was a Grey on
one side and an angel on the other. According to Bette, somehow
the two are interconnected, a concept which goes very much against
the Born Again belief system.
Now, taking this a step further, and in relation to the Phoenix
sightings and Richard Hoagland, Bette was once taken to a place
full of tunnels. With a grey in front and in back of her, they rode what
seemed like tracks to a destination. Along the way, off to her side,
she saw pyramids and other Egyptian-like structures. Upon reaching
her destination, she was confronted by the Phoenix which
Steve mentioned earlier in the week.
The point I am making is that the concept of Egypt, the pyramids,
and its relationship to the Phoenix were totally foreign to Bette.
She knew nothing about them and had a great deal of trouble
trying to discern their meaning. From Bette Andreasson's experiences,
along with the activity in Phoenix, I can conclude only two things:
we are all relating far too many things, or there is a connection
between Egypt, the aliens, angels, and something big around the
corner.
Well, this e-mail was too much for me! I think I'll call it a day
Have a greyt day!
razno.13petronio,
Interesantan tekst o onom filmu sto sam slao onomad..
Inače, ima još jedan deo tog filma od 2.5 Mb, pa ako ima interesenata
mogu da ga zakačim..
THE ALIEN AUTOPSY FILM
- Facts vs Armchair Research -
Some international researchers conclude that the Santilli 'Roswell'
footage is not a hoax. They claim that the alien in the autopsy room
was retrieved not from the Roswell UFO crash site but from another,
earlier crash near Socorro.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Extracted from Nexus Magazine, [*]Volume 3, #6 (Oct-Nov '96).
PO Box 30, Mapleton Qld 4560 Australia. [*]nexus@peg.apc.org
Telephone: +61 (0)7 5442 9280; Fax: +61 (0)7 5442 9381
From our web page at: http://www.peg.apc.org/~nexus/
by Michael Hesemann, c 1996
Editor/Publisher
Magazin 2000
Worringer Strasse 1
D-40211 Dčsseldorf, Germany
Fax: +49 (0)211 354893
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE 'ROSWELL FOOTAGE' RELEASE
About a year and a half ago, on 5th May 1995, the London-based film
producer Ray Santilli for the first time presented his alleged alien
autopsy footage to an audience of invited media representatives and
UFO researchers at the London Museum. Even before that date, a very
emotional debate had already started. Angry ufologists had challenged
Santilli to shut up or work together with them, while others had
claimed from the very beginning that the film is a hoax just because
it doesn't fit into their concept of what happened in New Mexico
in the summer of 1947.
Santilli's marketing policy, his commercial exploitation of the film,
his ignorance in the UFO field and his violation of all the unwritten
protocols of the UFO community didn't find many friends among ufologists,
and quite soon many screamed "Hoax!" without being able to prove
anything. One researcher even concluded, "There is no [16 mm] film
and no cameraman", after quoting page after page of all the rumours,
second- and third-hand information and inconsistencies among Santilli's
claims (or alleged claims), to prove that he was right from the very
beginning when he suspected a scam, because the being on the autopsy
table looked "too humanoid to be an extraterrestrial", yet ignoring
that this is exactly how most eyewitnesses describe crashed ufonauts.1
Unfortunately, those who searched for the truth, wherever it might
be, were few in number. Willing to listen to Santilli first, before
they judged and checked out the information they could get before
asking for more, were mainly Philip Mantle (UK), Bob Shell (USA)
and Michael Hesemann (Germany)-the International Research Team (IRT)-
joined by Maurizio Baiata and Roberto Pinotti (Italy), Johannes Baron
of Buttlar (Germany), Odd-Gunnar Roed (Norway), Hanspeter Wachter
(Switzerland), Col. Colman VonKeviczky, Dr Bruce Maccabee, Joe Stefula,
Lt. Col. W. C. Stevens, Ted Loman, Robert Morning Sky, Llewellyan
Wykel and Dennis Murphy (USA), and others.
Let me point out that we found Ray Santilli always very friendly,
helpful and cooperative although sometimes limited in his actions
by agreements with his business partners and the cameraman. I wonder
if any 'major international media corporation' would ever have been
even nearly as open to any reasonable research approach as Mr Santilli
indeed was. The following is a summary of results from the IRT's
first year of investigation.
THE CAMERAMAN
Yes, there is a cameraman. We located people, besides Santilli, who
had spoken to him over the phone: Gary Shoefield of Polygram, Philip
Mantle, John Purdie of Channel Four (UK) and the secretary of David
Roehring of Fox Network, USA. He is American, an old man, and lives
in Florida. He was in hospital when Gary Shoefield wanted to meet
him, and was coughing when Philip Mantle had him on the phone. According
to his story he had polio as a child.2 Polio victims at that time
mostly walked with a limp. He could not have had a bad hand, otherwise
he could not have worked as a cameraman, but maybe he had a bad leg.
The movement of the cameraman in the film indicates this, since he
doesn't move smoothly. Bob Shell enquired among senior US military
cameramen if they could remember a colleague from the 1940s with
a bad leg. They knew one. His name is Jack "X", and he is exactly
the age claimed for the Santilli cameraman: eighty-six.3
The cameraman is not Jack Barnett-a name used originally by Santilli
to protect the identity of the true cameraman. Jack Barnett worked
for Universal News, filmed Elvis Presley at a high-school concert
in 1955 and died in 1969. Jack X did not work for Universal, but
filmed Elvis at another concert, an open-air one, when the Universal
cameramen were on strike.4 The cameraman agreed to be interviewed
by a major US TV network.5
In April 1996 Bob Shell was contacted by the US Air Force following
an enquiry from President Clinton's scientific adviser, Dr John Gibbons.
The USAF Captain told Shell that they had located footage from the
same stock in their archives and verified that at least part of the
Santilli material is genuine, and shows no dummy and no human. They
knew the cameraman's name-Jack X-but asked Shell to forward an address,
since the military records building in St Louis had had a fire and
many records had been lost. A search would be time-consuming and
expensive.6
When we asked for details about the crash site, we became convinced
that the cameraman indeed has an excellent knowledge of the area
in question. With Ray Santilli as the intermediary-and Santilli did
not know anything about the area in question and insisted on calling
Socorro "Sorocco"-he even described a ruined bridge that we could
locate only on our third visit to the area. He knew exactly what
he was talking about.
Although some have criticised the cameraman's technique in the autopsy
film, other military cameraman think this is exactly the way they,
too, would have filmed it.
"The cameraman keeps moving to get out of the way of the surgeon
and keeps trying to get the best perspective. The job of an army
cameraman is to record a procedure on film, not to deliver beautiful
pictures. And that, here, is an adequate filmic protocol," said Dr
Roderick Ryan, US Navy cameraman during the '40s and '50s who filmed
many secret government projects including the atomic tests on Bikini
Atoll.7
"Among these circumstances, no one could have made a better job...he
was not only a well-educated and experienced movie man, but, additionally,
in full knowledge of editing and production of documentaries. Evidence:
filming the autopsy activities from various view angles," said Col.
Colman VonKeviczky, who studied at the UFA Film Academy in Berlin
Babelsberg, was head of the audiovisual division of the Royal Hungarian
General Staff, cameraman and director of the 3rd US Army at Heidelberg
and member of the audiovisual department of the United Nations in
New York.8
THE FILM STOCK
Careful study of stills made from the original film and high-quality
Betacam copies confirmed that the film was indeed shot on 16-mm material.
The camera handling seen on the autopsy film indicates the use of
a small, lightweight camera with fixed lenses (therefore, the out-
of-focus close-ups), like the 16-mm Bell & Howell Filmo Camera
used by US military cameramen in the '40s-the camera the cameraman
claims he used.9
Leaders of 16 mm film were sent to Kodak Hollywood, London and Copenhagen
and turned out to bear the symbols (a square and a triangle) used
by Kodak either in 1947 or in 1967.10
Two segments with three frames each, one clearly showing the autopsy
room, were given to Bob Shell, editor of Shutterbug magazine and
also a phototechnical consultant for the FBI and the US courts. After
a careful physical analysis, Shell confirmed the segments to be pre-
1956 16-mm film. In 1956 Kodak changed its film-base from acetate-
propionate to triacetate, and the samples were clearly on acetate-
propionate film. The film type was Super XX-Panchromatic Safety Film,
a high-speed film used for indoor filming but which had a life-span
of no more than two years, when cosmic radiation would cause a 'fogging'
of the material. Shell is sure the film was exposed and developed
within two years. This, at least, dates the film as pre-1958.11
THE EQUIPMENT & OBJECTS IN THE AUTOPSY ROOM
Everything in the film dates to the time in question. The telephone
is an AT& model from 1946,12 and spiral cables had been optional
since 1938 and standard for US Army telephones.13 The wall clock
is a model on the market since 1938,14 and the microphone is a 1946
Sheer Bros mike.15 The table with the instruments was standard equipment
for a pathologist, as confirmed by Prof. Cyril Wecht, ex-President
of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences.16 The bone hammer was
not unusual; nor was the Bunsen burner which, in autopsies, served
the purpose of burning away body fat.
THE BODY
The corpse on the autopsy table has been the subject of many disputes
as to whether it is a dummy, a girl with a genetic disorder or, indeed,
an alien. Nearly all special effects (FX) experts concluded that
it is certainly possible to fake footage of a realistic-looking autopsy.
There have been many concerns about 'snuff' movies and the origin
of the corpses used in them. South America had been named as a possible
origin, but reports from there have indicated the use of very realistic
dummies. However, no one has found any evidence of special effects
being used in this autopsy film-although today, unquestionably, nearly
everything can be faked with the latest state-of-the-art FX techniques.17
On the other hand, pathologists and physicians from all over the
world who saw the film were pretty sure the body was not a dummy,
but actually a corpse-human or humanoid.
It is indisputable that some of the characteristics of different
genetic disorders can be found in the being on the autopsy table-
mostly disorders such as Turner's syndrome or progeria, combined
with polydactylism (which is not a typical element of Turner's syndrome,
although possible in combination with it) and other anomalies. This
prompted a German dermatologist, Dr T. Jansen of the Policlinic of
the University of Munich, to publish a study in a medical journal,
trying to prove that the body is that of a girl who died from a rare
form of progeria.18 On the other hand, he forgot to explain why there
could be two girls with identical symptoms including polydactylism,
when progeria is so rare that there are only 20 cases worldwide.
Unfortunately, the only case of Turner's syndrome twins, although
obviously documented on film, was never published in the medical
literature.
Indeed, Dr Jansen's 'findings' do not explain the extreme precautions
taken when the autopsy was performed, i.e., why would the team have
worn bio-hazard protection suits if the body had a genetic disorder,
and why would the being have been fitted with black eye-lenses? Although
Dr Jansen diagnosed a stroke (common for progeria patients) as the
cause of death, this does not explain the damaged right leg, the
broken and swollen left leg, the cut-off right hand and a bruise
at the left temple with a possible bullet wound. Should we assume
that our creature broke its legs, cut its right hand and shot a bullet
in its head before it died from a stroke?
More than that, Jansen's explanation for the missing navel couldn't
convince us, either. To quote Dr Jansen, "It's like if you put up
an umbrella: the unevenness disappears."19
On the other hand, quite a number of pathologists concluded that
the being was not human at all, since its inner organs were like
nothing they had ever seen:
Prof. Christopher Milroy, Home Office Pathologist, University of
Sheffield, UK: "Although a close-up of the brain was shown, it was
again out of focus. However, the appearance was not that of a human
brain."20
Prof. Mihatsch, University of Basle, Switzerland: "As for the organs
removed, they could not be tallied with any human organs."21
Prof. Cyril Wecht, Ex-President, American Academy of Forensic Sciences,
USA: "I can't place these structures in an abdominal context... I
find it difficult to bring in any connection with the human body
as I know it. The structure that must be the brain, if it were a
human being, does not look like a brain...it does not seem to be
a human being."22
Dr Carsten Nygren, Oslo, Norway: "This is not a human brain. It is...much
too dark."23
Prof. Pierluigi Baima Bollone, University of Turin, Italy: "When
we look at the inner organs of the body we find no single organ that
in any way resembles any human organ. The main organ, which could
be the liver, has neither the shape nor the location of a human liver.
The face of the alleged extraterrestrial shows surprising anatomical
features: very big ocular orbits, a very flat nasal pyramid, a mouth
somehow wide open...nevertheless, the face is flat, there is no evidence
of facial musculature which is present in human beings and is responsible
for the large variety of facial expressions of the human species...
My overall impression is that we are dealing with a creature that
seems to belong to our species but is so clearly different from us
that it seems absurd to speculate about the similarity."24
There was not a single physician or pathologist who, after watching
the full film, concluded it was a hoax or that the being on the table
was a dummy. They all agreed the corpse was of a living, biological
entity-human or not.
THE PATHOLOGISTS
According to the cameraman the autopsy was performed by "Dr Bronk"
and "Dr Williams".
Prof. Dr Detlev Bronk (1897-1975) was no surprise, since his name
already appeared in the controversial "Majestic 12" documents. He
was Chairman of the National Research Council, America's leading
biophysicist and a member of the Advisory Committee of the Army,
Air Force and of the Atomic Energy Commission-certainly a person
to whom the supervision of an autopsy of this relevance could have
been entrusted. After his death, all his papers and documents were
preserved at the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research, of which
he was President from 1953.25
Dr Bronk was a very methodical person, kept detailed diaries and
all his correspondence, notes and dates. But when Bob Shell wanted
to look through his papers and diaries for 1947, he learnt that,
mysteriously enough, this is the only year for which all the records
are missing. None of the friendly librarians could tell him what
had happened to them or why they are still missing.26
Dr Williams might have been Dr Robert Parvin Williams (1891-1967),
who was Special Assistant to the Surgeon General of the Army at Fort
Monroe, Virginia. He was a Lt. Col. in 1947 and was promoted to Brig.
General in 1949.27 Alone, the naming of Dr Williams-who was the right
man in the right place for the task-indicates the cameraman had some
inside knowledge.
Were the protagonists of the alien autopsy footage indeed pathologists
or surgeons-or just actors? We asked the physicians who viewed the
footage:
Prof. Dr Ch. Milroy, University of Sheffield, UK: "Whilst the examination
had features of a medically conducted examination, aspects suggest
it was not conducted by an experienced pathologist, but rather by
a surgeon."28
Prof. Dr M. J. Mihatsch, University of Basle, Switzerland: "I do
not question the capability of the pathologist or surgeon who is
working on the corpse."29
Prof. Cyril Wecht, American Academy of Forensic Sciences, USA: "(They)
are either pathologists or surgeons who have performed a number of
autopsies before."30
Prof. Pierluigi Baima Bollone, University of Turin, Italy: "Definitely
surgeons, not pathologists...well-experienced."31
Prof. Jean Pierre, University of Paris, France: "The persons who
performed the autopsy were certainly of the medical profession, if
not experienced pathologists."32
Dr Carsten Nygren, Oslo, Norway: "These were surgeons doing the work,
not pathologists."33
In fact, neither Prof. Bronk nor Dr Williams were pathologists: Bronk
was a biophysicist and Williams a surgeon. Indeed, not one physician
concluded they were actors or made any mistakes.
One point of criticism was the type of autopsy performed. Obviously
it served the purpose of determining the cause of death rather than
of learning more about an alien life-form. On the other hand, this
is explainable by the circumstances under which the autopsy was performed.
According to the cameraman, four living aliens were found at the
crash site. One did not survive the recovery operation, the second
and third died about four weeks later, and the fourth survived until
May 1949.
We do not know anything about the autopsy of the first creature,
and it might very well have been that it was subjected to a 'big'
scientific autopsy.
The cameraman filmed the second and third autopsies on 1st and 3rd
July 1947, when the main concern might have been to find out the
cause of their sudden deaths in order to find a way to keep alien
no. 4 alive-unless they could establish communication and find out
why these visitors had come to Earth. This was surely of a higher
interest for the national defence forces than a scientific study
of an alien life-form. Nevertheless, we assume that organs were taken
for further study during the dissection.
Furthermore, according to the cameraman, the fourth alien was autopsied
scientifically in a medical theatre in Washington, DC, in the presence
of leading scientists from the US, England and France.34
THE DEBRIS FOOTAGE
The Santilli footage showing metal samples was analysed by Dennis
W. Murphy, who has an Academy of Science degree in marine diving
technology and welding and has studied all types of metalwork.
He concluded: "I have never seen anything that resembles the manufacturing
techniques used in the construction of the I-beams in the Santilli
debris footage. I know of no manufacturing process that could produce
the multitude of details found on the I-beams."
Murphy refused possibilities like milling ("When I look at the lettering
I see precise rounds as part of the symbols. I do not think that
you can do this with current milling machines..."), extrusion, rolling,
casting, moulding ("against moulding...the apparent lack of weight
for all the pieces..., the acute right-angles at the roots, the thinness
of the flanges of the I-beam and the finely detailed definition of
the raised symbols...", which could only be produced with metal of
a high density which is much heavier than the indicated weight),
and the use of foam-core paperboard ("the crystalline nature of the
break in the broken beams, the reflectivity of the material in the
break, the rigidity of the I-beams..." argue against this possibility,
according to Murphy).
The nature of fractures, the flexible, light and highly reflective
appearance of the I-beams baffled Murphy and brought him to the conclusion
that, indeed, metal with an extremely fine, crystalline structure
had been used, manufactured with an unknown technique.35 The same
conclusion was drawn by Prof. Dr Malanga of the University of Pisa,
Italy.36
Master Sergeant Bob Allen, USAF security coordinator at a top-secret
research facility near Tonapah, Nevada, recognised the panels on
the film: "The army came, after many years, to the conclusion that
the beings had taken the boxes out with them because they were waiting
to be picked up. Each panel was constructed for each of the ETs individually.
They could be fitted into slots in various apparatus. The entire
system-propulsion, navigation, everything-could be started and controlled
by these panels. We tried it too, but our brain frequency was not
fast enough to operate them." According to Allen, they were presented,
together with other "alien hardware", every 10 years to the Lawrence
Livermore Laboratories for examination as the basis of latest state-
of-the-art science.37
This was confirmed by a USAF engineer, working for Sandia Laboratories
in Albuquerque, who identified them as some kind of "biofeedback
computers responding to neural impulses".38 "We learned how to feed
information into them, but we were not able to get information out
of them," he added.
Bill Uhouse, a mechanical design engineer who worked at the top-secret
facility at Area 51 on the Nevada test site-where he allegedly worked
with alien technology-identified them as "personal control panels.
They served to communicate with the individual member of the crew
and possibly to interact with a computer on board or, better, the
steering unit. When the craft crashed, each crew member took his
panel with him. Possibly they served as communication with a mother
ship, which could locate and rescue them."39
THE HIEROGLYPHS
When I first saw the hieroglyphs on the I-beams, I immediately recognised
a similarity with the Greek and Phoenician alphabets. Indeed, both
of them have a common origin and belong to the same 'family' as the
many different Semitic alphabets-Aramaic, Sabaeic, Samaritan, Hebrew,
Protocanaanitic, Nabataeic and Arabic-which all originate from the
hieroglyphic alphabet, one of the four main groups of Egyptian hieroglyphs
(the others being two- and three-syllable signs and ideograms).40
Interestingly enough, inscriptions which clearly belong to the same
family of alphabets, but pre-date the Phoenician or even the Egyptian
culture, have been found all over the world-in Peru (Ylo),41 Ecuador
(Cuenca),42 Brazil (Piedra Pintada),43 France (Glozel, Maz d'Azil),
44 on the Canary Islands,45 and elsewhere. Because of their similarity
with the Phoenician alphabet, I call them "Proto-Phoenician".
In this context I was able to decipher both I-beams and translate
their inscriptions using languages from the same context and language
families as the alphabets. They say: "DIREQH ELE/ECE" and "OSNI".
"DIREQH" is related to the Hebrew "Derekh", meaning "way, path, journey".
"ELE" could be a plural of "El", meaning "God", like the Hebrew "Elohim",
and "ECE" is related to the Egyptian "ase", meaning "to introduce"
or "to approach". So, depending on whether we read the second sign
as a "lambda/lamed" or a "gamma/gimel", we can translate it alternatively
(since we don't know the grammar) as "the journey of the gods", a
prayer, like "Go with God", or "a journey to approach/ introduce".
I translate "OSNI" as the Egyptian "asni", meaning "to make to open",
46 either philosophically, as in "to open for a contact" or "to open
the consciousness", or, in a practical sense, as in "Open here".
razno.14petronio,
But why would extraterrestrials speak and write like Phoenician,
Hebrew or Egyptian? Maybe because it's the language of the gods,
who introduced it on Earth. In fact, the ancient Egyptians believed
their hieroglyphic system had been brought to them by Thoth or Tehuti,
the God of Wisdom, one of the Neteru ("Watchers") who travelled in
the celestial barks on the celestial Nile-the Milky Way.47
Is it a coincidence that the mathematical system of both ancient
Sumer and Egypt was based on 12, when here we meet beings with 12
fingers? We find twelve-toed footprints on Anasazi petroglyphs in
the Canyonlands of Utah, USA,48 and a twelve-fingered Sky Kachina
in the tradition of the Laguna, Hopi and other Pueblo Indians.49
The Brazilian Ugha Mongulala believe their "Ancient Fathers", who
came from the stars, had "six fingers and six toes as signs of their
divine origin".50
ROSWELL OR SOCORRO?
Ray Santilli's claim that the film was "the Roswell footage" caused
a lot of controversy, since none of the witnesses to the July 1947
UFO crash/retrieval event had confirmed either the bodies or the
debris. Indeed, the corpses found in Roswell were smaller, more slender,
and had four or five fingers, according to eyewitnesses.51 None ever
mentioned six fingers. In any case, if the film were a fake, why
did those responsible for it not care to read at least one of the
many books on this subject or see the excellent TV mini-series, Roswell,
by Paul Davies, as shown on Showtime?
The very first information I got from Santilli about the source of
the film made me wonder if it actually had anything to do with Roswell
at all. Ray already insisted on 5th May 1995 that the autopsies had
been filmed on 1st and 2nd July 1947, and that the recovery had taken
place "in the beginning of June"-one month too early for Roswell.
When I went to Roswell on 30th June 1995 to confront the eyewitnesses
(including Robert Shirkey, Glenn Dennis and Frank Kaufmann) with
the just-released stills from the film, I asked Santilli for details
about the crash site. He could only tell me it was "about four-and-
a-half hours away", "close to White Sands test site" and "an Apache
reservation", and "at the northern shore of a small dry lake at the
end of a small canyon". I asked him to call the cameraman to obtain
more detailed instructions, which, indeed, he did. He said the crash
site was "between Socorro" (Ray said "Sorocco") "and Magdalena".
By the end of July 1995, Santilli released the full story of the
cameraman who confirmed he had learnt of the crash on 1st June 1947-
which dates the event back to the late hours of 31st May 1947. Date,
location and everything we see on the film didn't fit with Roswell.
Conclusion: it was a different event.
The fact that the cameraman had been flown into Roswell and brought
to the crash site by car, caused him to believe he'd been involved
in "the Roswell incident" that he'd heard about-and Santilli believed
him.
THE CRASH/RETRIEVAL SITE
Following the instructions given by the cameraman, I was able to
find the small dry lake at the end of a canyon by following "the
last dirt road before the (Magdalena) mountains". It was about 15
miles away from the White Sands Proving Grounds and the Bosque del
Apache National Wildlife Resort, a former reservation.
On the third visit to the site, Ted Loman was even able to find the
ruins of a (railway) bridge mentioned by the cameraman. After we
sent photographs to the cameraman, he was able to confirm the site.
In September 1995 Santilli released the cameraman's drawings, enhanced
by a graphic artist, showing the crash scene. Although the scenery
in our photographs looked different, we found that, coming from the
canyon, it looked exactly like it was in his drawings. Right where
he drew the craft crashed into a cliff, we found an area, 20 metres
in diameter, where someone had deliberately sizzled off the rock
as if trying to remove traces.
Above the dry lake bed we located an old mine. According to the New
Mexico Office of Mining & Technology in Socorro it was a manganese
mine, called "Niggerhead Mine", which was closed in 1938, reopened
during the war when manganese was precious and needed, and closed
down again in 1945. According to the cameraman, it was again reopened
by the US Government (Department of the Interior), but with no further
mining, on the very day the retrieval began: 1st June 1947.52 Mining
operations were used as cover events for the Manhattan Project and
maybe also here. Isn't the reopening of a mine a perfect excuse for
moving in heavy equipment-cranes, flatbed trucks-and personnel, and
cordoning off of an area?
An Air Accident Report, allegedly written by General Nathan Twining
of the Air Materiel Command at Wright Field and published by the
late Len Stringfield, mentions a "Flying Disc Aircraft found near
White Sands Proving Grounds" at some time before 16th July 1947,
the date of the report. Since the report covers the full technical
evaluation of the craft, we can assume the crash happened at least
one month beforehand, if not more.53
Stringfield quoted another witness, Major V. A. Postleweith of US
Army Intelligence, who had seen a classified telex mentioning a disc
crash "in the vicinity of the White Sands Proving Grounds".54
CRASH AND RETRIEVAL WITNESSES
We located several witnesses to a 'crash' that very day in question:
31st May 1947, in the evening hours. Fred Strozzi, a local rancher
who lived just a few miles away from the crash site, claimed to have
seen a meteorite "bigger than a basketball" falling during that time
and in the area in question, according to Betty and Smoky Pound,
another local rancher couple.55 Unfortunately, Strozzi passed away
years ago, so we couldn't ask him for details.
But the same 'meteorite' had also been seen by a group of Native
American children of the Acoma tribe who went to school in Gallup,
New Mexico. That day, 31st May-which one of them remembered quite
clearly because it was just before her birthday-was a very hot day,
so they played in the evening when it had cooled down. "Suddenly
the whole sky was lit up as if it was daytime," one of them recalled.
"In less than four seconds, a big ball of fire glided silently over
our heads from left to right, i.e., northwest to southeast"-which
is the direction of Socorro. "The light was so bright that we kids
held our hands before our faces to protect our eyes."56
Two days later, most of the children had blisters on their hands
and arms-"itchies" as they called them. We received a letter from
the daughter of one of the witnesses and interviewed two others,
one on the phone, the other on camera.57 A meteorite wouldn't cause
blistering like this. According to the cameraman, when he moved in
about 24 hours later, the crashed disc was still hot and there was
the danger of a fire, so we can indeed assume that the craft was
a 'fireball' when it crashed in the late hours of 31st May 1947.
Did the local newspapers cover the 'meteorite' sighting? Ted Loman
tried to find out, and visited the office of the Socorro Chieftain.
He was told that in the late 1960s a fire destroyed some of the papers
and that, in fact, some were missing-those between 10th May and 15th
June 1947. At the suggestion of the editorial assistant he spoke
to, Ted tried at the library of the local mining university, where
he found microfilms of all the issues of the paper-with the exception
of those between 10th May and 15th June 1947. His attempt to find
them in the Rio Grande Collection of the New Mexico State University
at Las Cruces, New Mexico, was also unsuccessful.
Bob Shell tried at the neighbouring town of Magdalena. Again, all
papers from that period were missing. He was told, "You won't find
them. I have been looking for them for years and nobody has them."
He also tried at the Zimmerman Library of New Mexico, without success.
According to the cameraman, the craft was delivered on the back of
a flatbed truck to Wright Field, Ohio, by the middle of June 1947.
A witness, Howard Marston, a civilian engineer who worked at a testing
laboratory at Wright Field in the summer of 1947, claims he was present
"when they brought in a disc... It was on the trailer of a truck,
covered with tarpaulins. They unloaded it in a hangar. I saw it from
a distance when they uncovered it. It was a metallic disc, about
30 to 40 feet in diameter," Marston told me when I interviewed him.58
WITNESSES TO THE FILM'S ORIGIN
We located four eyewitnesses who had seen footage from the same stock
as the Santilli film in the possession of the US military and intelligence-
a fact recently confirmed by USAF Capt. John McAndrews.59
Master Sgt Bob Allen was security coordinator at a top-secret test
site near Tonapah, Nevada. When he was briefed for his work, he was
shown films for about two-and-a-half hours. When he saw the Santilli
film on TV he immediately recognised them as part of the same stock.
"I saw three autopsies," he told me. "During one, Truman stood behind
the glass screen in the autopsy room. He wore a surgeon's face-mask,
but one could see it was Truman. After a few days the first one died,
then the second. They said, 'Damn, they are dying like flies and
we have to find out if they have any hostile intentions and what
they are doing here. We must find a way to keep the fourth alive.'
That's why the autopsies were done. The fourth extraterrestrial lived
for another two years..."60
Sgt Clifford Stone, US Army, was stationed at Fort Ley, Virginia,
in 1969. He was part of a Nuclear/Biological/Chemical Accident (NBC)
Quick Reaction Team. He said, "My mission on that was to be the NBC
NCO, the communications NCO. I had the opportunity to take our Lieutenant
to Fort Belvoir, Virginia. At Fort Belvoir, myself and another person,
a person from the Air Force, an airman, went to gallivant around
and went up the stairs in an auditorium there, and we went into one
room and sat down, and there was this plexiglass window down into
the theatre...and they were watching down there what we believed
to be trailers of science-fiction movies.
"There were these common saucer-shaped UFOs, cigar-shaped UFOs...and
you also had bodies. The airman and I went ahead and tried to figure
out what movies these came from because we had an interest in SF...
There were several types of bodies... When we did this, some people
came in and told us to follow, in no uncertain terms." Both were
arrested and underwent an "intensified debriefing" which took four
nights and five days. "When I saw the Santilli tape, I saw the pictures
first: they were haunting, because they took me back to this day
in 1969, to these movies that they were watching. There were bodies
that looked very, very, very close to that one. And there were alive
ones, also. I have knowledge that there is footage within a tent.
I have knowledge of a film with-if that is not Truman in the film,
it is a very convincing double."61
On 26th June 1995, the British researcher Colin Andrews visited Ray
Santilli in the presence of the Japanese researcher Johsen Takano,
who advises the Japanese Government in UFO matters, and Dr Hoang-
Yung Chiang of the National Research Centre for Biotechnology in
Taipeh, Taiwan. Dr Hoang-Yung teaches at the Cultural University
and the Medical University of Taipeh and, through his initiative,
ufology is now officially recognised by the Taiwanese Government
as a scientific discipline.
After a private viewing, both Takano and Hoang-Yung told Andrews
they had seen the film before: Johsen, when his government had requested
UFO information from the US Government, which was then brought to
Tokyo by a CIA courier; Hoang-Yung, when he had visited the CIA's
headquarters in Langley, Virginia.62
CONCLUSION
While nobody has been able to present any proof that the Santilli
autopsy footage was faked, we have some convincing indications that
the film might very well be genuine. If it is a hoax, it is definitely
the most ingenious fake of the century.
Instead of continuing the polemic of the last year or so, serious
UFO researchers should continue to evaluate the evidence and search
for the truth, in what might turn out to be the most provocative
proof yet that we are not alone in the Universe.
Endnotes
1. Jeffrey, Kent, "Santilli's Controversial Autopsy Movie", MUFON
UFO Journal, Seguin, Texas, USA, no. 335, March 1996.
2. (a) Mantle, Philip (ed.), "The Roswell Film Footage", UFO Times,
BUFORA, Batley, England, no. 36, Jul/Aug 1995;
(b) Santilli, Ray (ed.), "Operation Anvil" (press release), London,
England, 1995.
3. Shell, Bob, personal communication, December 1995.
4. Santilli, Ray, "My Story" (press release), London, 1995.
5. Santilli, Ray, Conference on the CompuServe Encounters Forum,
25 March 1996.
6. Shell, Bob, personal communication, 18 April 1996.
7. Kiviat, B. and D. Roehring, Alien Autopsy: Fact or Fiction?, TV
broadcast, Fox Network, USA, 29 August 1995.
8. VonKeviczky, Colman, "Autopsy of a Human-like 'Freak' Body" (report),
New York, USA, 23 October 1995.
9. ibid.
10. (a) Letter from Eastman Kodak Co., Hollywood, USA, June 1995
(without date);
(b) Letter from Kodak Ltd., London, UK, 14 June 1995.
11. Shell, Bob, "Summary of Points in Physical Research on Film Dating"
(report), Radford, Virginia, USA, 6 September 1995.
12. (a) Personal information from Terry Blanton, 31 October 1995;
(b) Time Magazine, New York, 18 December 1995.
13. ibid.
14. Santilli, Ray, statement published on the Internet, June 1995.
15. MUFON Section, CompuServe Encounters Forum, Library, September
1995.
16. Kiviat and Roehring, ibid.
17. Stokes, Trey, "Special Effects: The Fine Art of Fooling People",
UFO Times, BUFORA, Batley, England, January 1996.
18. Jansen, T., "Der 'Roswell-Alien': Progerie", Mčnch. Med.
Wschr., no. 9, Munich, Germany, 1996.
19. "Wie im Lehrbuch", in Der Spiegel, Hamburg, Germany, 23 April
1996.
20. Milroy, Christopher (Dr), statement, 2 June 1995.
21. Wachter, Hanspeter, "Der Roswell-Film", Magazin 2000, Neuss,
Germany, no. 110, May 1996.
22. Kiviat and Roehring, ibid.
23. Roed, Odd-Gunnar, "Norwegian pathologist views the Roswell footage"
(report), Oslo, Norway, March 1996.
24. Misterii (TV broadcast), RAI Due, Italy, 17 October 1995.
25. (a) Modern Scientists and Engineers, McGraw-Hill, New York, vol.
1, 1980;
(b) Current Biography, New York, 1949.
26. Shell, Bob, personal communication, 25 January 1996.
27. Who was Who, p. 784 (copy without year given to Bob Shell).
28. Milroy, ibid.
29. Wachter, ibid.
30. Kiviat and Roehring, ibid.
31. Misterii, ibid.
32. Roswell footage TV broadcast, TF1, France, 23 October 1995.
33. Roed, ibid.
34. Santilli, "Operation Anvil", ibid.; personal communications.
35. Murphy, Dennis, "Discussion of Debris Details: Santilli Alien
Dissection Film" (report), published on CompuServe Encounters Forum,
1 March 1996.
36. Malanga, Corrado (Dr), lecture, Roswell Symposium of the Republic
of San Marino, 7 September 1995.
37. Allen, Bob (M.Sgt), personal communication, 24 January 1996.
38. Shell, Bob, personal communication, 18 February 1996.
39. Uhouse, Bill, statement on the Roswell footage panel, International
UFO Conference, Mesquite, Nevada, USA, 1 December 1995.
40. (a) Zauzich, Karl-Theodor, Hieroglyphs without Mystery, University
of Texas Press, Austin, Texas, USA, 1992.
(b) Wallis Budge, E. A., Egyptian Language, Dover Publications, New
York, reprinted 1983.
(c) Wallis Budge, E. A., An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary, Dover
Publications, New York, vols. 1-2, reprinted 1978.
(d) Watterson, Barbara, Introducing Egyptian Hieroglyphs, Scottish
Academic Press, Edinburgh, Scotland, 1993.
(e) Robinson, Andrews, Story of Writing, London, 1960.
(f) Naveh, Joseph, Die Etstehung des Alphabets ("The Origin of the
Alphabet"), Palphot, Jerusalem, Israel, 1994.
41. Charroux, Robert, Vergessene Welten, Econ, Dčsseldorf, Germany,
1974.
42. von Dšniken, Erich, Meine Welt in Bildern, Econ, Dčsseldorf,
1973.
43. Homet, Marcel (Dr), Die Soehne der Sonne, Walter, Olten, Switzerland,
1958.
44. Charroux, Robert, Das Raetsel der Anden, Econ, Dčsseldorf,
1978.
45. Herrera, Salvador Lopez, The Canary Islands through History,
Gráficas Tenerife, Santa Cruz (undated).
46. Wallis Budge, An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary, vol. 2, ibid.
47. Hesemann, Michael, Cosmic Connections, Gateway Books, Bath, UK,
1995.
48. Morning Sky, Robert, personal communication, December 1995.
49. Shell, Bob, personal communication, February 1996.
50. Brugger, Karl, The Chronicle of Akakor, Delacorte Press, New
York, 1977.
51. (a) Friedman, S. and D. Berliner, UFO Crash at Corono, Paragon,
New York, 1992.
(b) Randle, K. and D. Schmitt, UFO Crash at Roswell, Avon, New York,
1991.
52. (a) Document in the New Mexico Institute of Mining & Technology,
Socorro, New Mexico, USA;
(b) Wykel, L. and K. Kelly, "The Six Mile Canyon Crash Site" (report),
Albuquerque, New Mexico, 24 September 1995.
53. Stringfield, Leonard, UFO Crash Retrievals: Search for Proof
in a Hall of Mirrors, Cincinatti, Ohio, USA, 1994 (self-published).
54. Stringfield, Leonard, UFO Crash Retrievals: Amassing the Evidence,
Cincinatti, Ohio, 1982 (self-published).
55. Wykel and Kelly, ibid.
56. Letter to Art Bell (radio talk-show host), 10 September 1995.
57. Personal interviews, 19 February 1996.
58. Marston, Howard, personal interview, 2 December 1995.
59. Shell, Bob, personal communication, 18 April 1996.
60. Allen, Bob (M.Sgt), personal communication, 24 January 1996.
61. Stone, Clifford (Sgt), as interviewed by Ted Loman, 20 February
1996.
62. Andrews, Colin, personal communication, 28 June 1995.
About the Author:
Michael Hesemann is a cultural anthropologist and historian who studied
at Gđttingen University. He is a best-selling author and award-
winning film producer, with expertise in frontier sciences and extraterrestrial
phenomena. He lives in Dčsseldorf, Germany. Since 1984, Hesemann
has published and edited Magazin 2000, which comes out in German
and Czech languages. His international best-sellers, UFOs: The Evidence,
A Cosmic Connection and UFOs: A Secret Matter have been published
in 14 countries, with a distribution of more than 500,000 copies.
His latest book, Beyond Roswell (with Philip Mantle), on his investigation
into the controversial alien autopsy footage, will be published towards
the end of 1996 by Marlowe, New York. Michael Hesemann has produced
several award-winning documentaries, such as UFOs: The Secret Evidence
and UFOs: Secrets of the Black World, and has worked for TV programmes
in Germany, Japan and the US. He has spoken at international conferences
in 22 countries across five continents, at 30 universities, and at
the United Nations. He is an associate member of the Society for
Scientific Exploration.
razno.15nenad,
-> #13, petronio> Interesantan tekst o onom filmu sto sam slao onomad..
> Inače, ima još jedan deo tog filma od 2.5 Mb, pa ako ima
> interesenata mogu da ga zakačim..
Možeš ti da pričaš šta hoćeš ali ja i daje mislim da bi više
publike imao u extra:misterije. ;) Diskusija na sličnu temu se
tamo upravo i vodi.
razno.16dr.iivan,
-> #9, legolas> >> Ja licno nisam, ali jedan moj prijatelj je par puta razgovarao sa
> >> Hrvatima. Jednom prilikom je razgovarao sa Hrvaticom i na kraju
>
> Da li ti vidis sta ti pises??? Pa sta su oni? NLO, izumrle zivotinje
> ili neki svetski politicari? ;)
Prvo, vredi procitati poruku na koju je moja odgovor, pa tek onda suditi
o tome sta pisem. Covek je takvo pitanje postavio i lepo sam mu
odgovorio. Uradi to sledeci put.
> BTW, drago mi je da si pomenuo tu temu. Posle utakmice se nisam
> osecao bas kao oni na ulici. Doslo mi je da se pokrijem usima, a oni
Znas kako, pobeda je pobeda, pa makar i na srecu.
> 1. Hrvatski tim je vrlo mlad i neiskusan, dok je nas sastavljen od
> svetski poznatih igraca.
> 2. Hrvati su igrali vrlo pozrtvovano, dok nasi dekocentrisano i
> odsutno.
> Ne, nasi igraci su veoma lose odigrali
Sa ovim se slazem.
razno.17dr.iivan,
-> #5, nenad> > Pogledaj koliki je procenat ljudi glasao za Tudmana, da li bi
> > toliko ljudi glasalo za SM ?
>
> Saberi ovde glasove Seselja i SPS-a i dobijes slicnu cifru. Tamo
Eh, Seselj pa Seselj.. Necu da ulazim u njegovu politiku, mozda je i
u dilu sa Milosevicem, mozda i nije. Za trenutak pokusaj da gledas samo
ljude koji ce glasati za njega. Nadam se da si dosao do zakljucka da
to nisu isti ljudi koji bi glasali i za Milosevica. Da se izrazim
tvojim recnikom, to su ljudi koji su naseli na njegovu propagandu i
nece glasati za Milosevica. Prema tome, to nisu njegovi glasaci.
Pogotovo sto je Seselj u svim izbornim trkama u kojima je i Milosevic
(ili bar njegov covek) kada se radi o neposrednoj demokratiji.
Mozda Seselj i Milosevic zastupaju istu politiku, ali im glasaci
svakako nisu isti.
> su samo "nazadne", ksenofobicne i nedemokratske snage u jednoj
> stranci, u jednom centru moci. Nasa prednost je samo u tome sto
> je ovakva konstelacija (sa dva ipak koliko-toliko odvojena centra
> "moci") ranjivija.
Nisam stekao utisak da je u Hrvatskoj to isti centar moci. Izvor
informacija mi je bila emisija "Ukrstene reci" na BK.
> > Cim ima vise kandidata, znaci da vise ljudi misli da
> > moze dobiti izbore, odnosno da je manja sansa za pobedu sadasnjeg
> > predsednika ili kandidata njegove partije.
>
> A koji su to nasi kandidati? Vuk koji uvek misli da moze da
> dobije izbore i nekoliko zaludnika...
Ma kakvi oni bili, to su kandidati. Ako i jesu zaludnici, mislis da u
Hrvatskoj nema zaludnika?
> Ne zaboravi da je Hrvatska pod Tudmanom i HDZ-om dobila rat,
> ostvarila nezavisnu drzavu, sa znacajno smanjenim brojem
> "nehrvatskog" stanovnistva.
>
> Mi smo vodeci politiku koju su personifikovali Milosevic i Seselj
> dobili milion i po izbeglica, izgubili rat i ostali bez drzave, a
> OPET toliko puno ljudi glasa za njih.
Pa eto. Sve ovo sto si naveo ide u prilog mojoj tvrdnji da je nama ipak
svetlija situacija od njihove. Da se razumemo, svetlija u smislu
stepena demokratije ili bar njenom ostvarivanju.
razno.18dr.iivan,
-> #7, petronio> +| Ali, tu moze postojati jos jedno objasnjenje. Lokalna Tv stanica
> tezi +| vecem publicitetu vise nego drzavna, pogotovo sto drzavna vec
> ima +| isti. Prema tome, lokalna Tv ce jedva docekati da se bilo sta
> dovede
>
> Nije u tome problem, ne svodi se sve na vesti o pojavama,
> u pitanju su emisije sa video materijalom u kojoj ucesnici
> emisije koji nisu neki anonimusi, raspravljaju o tematici..
> To ti je kao kad bi rekao da Milan St. Protic lupeta gluposti
> jer ga nikad nema na RTS-u.. (ili neko drugi, nije bitno)
Ok, slazem se, ali hteo sam da se vezem konkretno za ovaj slucaj i
navedem sve moguce varijante, sto znaci da to nije 100% siguran
dogadjaj.
Sto se tice emisija, nista ne mogu da tvrdim, jer ih nisam video, pa ne
mogu da sudim o njihovim kvalitetima..
> Pre jedno dva meseca, mozda tri, nesto se dogodilo u Makedoniji.. ;)
> O tome je samo Tv Politika kod nas prenosila sa direktnim ukljucenjem
> iz Skoplja, prica je bila da je gotovo celo Skoplje videlo svemirski
> brod, e sad, on kaze da je makedonska Tv dala i slike (Tv politika
> nije) I tako je to islo 2-3 dana na politici (bukvalno prva vest u
> vestima), i valjda je na kraju receno kako je to ustvari bila masovna
> halucinacija.. ;)
To je druga stvar koja mi nije jasna. Kako to da se svi ti NLO-i
pojavljuju maltene samo u Americi. Zasto neki ne sleti i kod nas?
Kakvo objasnjenje moze biti za to?
> i rekao +| ranije, moze biti da sam presao na brzinu. Medutim,
> najvise me zanima, +| zasto su odlucili da to sve bas sada izbace na
> povrsinu. Sprema li se +| nesto vece, da li je ovo samo priprema?
>
> Pa to je sumnjivo u celoj toj prici..
> Danas je kod njih dan nezavisnosti, u isto vreme i 50-godisnjica
> pada svemirskog broda u Rozvelu..
Mislis li da to ima neke veze sa objavljivanjem ovog slucaja? Ja ne
vidim tu neku veliku povezanost. Cak i da su hteli da pripreme narod
za neku vecu istinu, mislim da ne bi to bas sada uradili kada se blizi
i 50. godisnjica Rozvela, mogao bi se postici nezeljeni efekat o kome
si i sam govorio.
> Ne znam sta da mislim.. trenutno verujem u sve to..
> Gotovo sam siguran u neke stvari, u neke ne, ima i nekih gluposti
> lansiranih namerno da bi ismejali celu pricu..
> Vreme ce pokazati, a cini mi se (i ne samo meni) da je to vreme
> jako blizu, do 2000. najkasnije, ne mogu da kazem sigurno.. ;)
Ja takode ne znam sta da mislim. Moje misljenje je da sigurno nismo
sami. Za to mi je argument cinjenica da, ako je svemir stvarno
beskrajan, u njemu moze postojati jos bezbroj zvezda kao sto je Sunce,
a samim tim i planeta kao sto je Zemlja na toj udaljenosti, tako da je
moguc zivot. E sad, pitanje je koliko su oni daleko od nas i fizicki,
i u razvoju. I da li su nam se toliko priblizili..
razno.19vsgdoo,
Ocajnicki potrebne sve moguce informacije o CD-u
-Studentski Protest-.
Najbolja bi bila neka adresa na internetu.
Probao sam na galeb.etf.bg.ac.yu/~protest96/
ali mi on odma' ubije explorer (3.02).
Hvala u napred ...
Pozdrav
Vladimir
razno.20legolas,
-> #16, dr.iivan>>> >> Ja licno nisam, ali jedan moj prijatelj je par puta razgovarao sa
>>>> >> Hrvatima. Jednom prilikom je razgovarao sa Hrvaticom i na kraju
>
>>> Da li ti vidis sta ti pises??? Pa sta su oni? NLO, izumrle zivotinje
>>> ili neki svetski politicari? ;)
>> Prvo, vredi procitati poruku na koju je moja odgovor, pa tek onda
>>suditi o tome sta pisem. Covek je takvo pitanje postavio i lepo sam mu
>> odgovorio. Uradi to sledeci put.
Ma ne govorim konkretno o poruci već o , tako da kažem, stilu: "Moja
setstra od tetke je imala vezu sa nekim ortakom koji je imao šuraka
koji je video jednog..." Pa kao da su Hrvati članovi neke tajne
organizacije ;)
razno.21dr.iivan,
-> #13, petronio> Interesantan tekst o onom filmu sto sam slao onomad..
> Inace, ima jos jedan deo tog filma od 2.5 Mb, pa ako ima interesenata
> mogu da ga zakacim..
Onaj film mi ama bas nista ne govori. Da je na Tv-u, pa ajde i da se
malo potrudim oko zakljucka da li je montaza, ali ovako je isuvise
slab da me natera da ozbiljnije razmisljam o njemu. Nisam video ni
jedan slican na Tv-u, ali sam cuo da je bio.
razno.22dr.iivan,
-> #20, legolas> >>> Da li ti vidis sta ti pises??? Pa sta su oni? NLO, izumrle
> zivotinje >>> ili neki svetski politicari? ;)
>
> >> Prvo, vredi procitati poruku na koju je moja odgovor, pa tek onda
> >>suditi o tome sta pisem. Covek je takvo pitanje postavio i lepo sam
> mu >> odgovorio. Uradi to sledeci put.
>
> Ma ne govorim konkretno o poruci vec o , tako da kazem, stilu: "Moja
> setstra od tetke je imala vezu sa nekim ortakom koji je imao suraka
E pa ja govorim konkretno o poruci, jer da prva poruka nije bila takva,
ni ja tako ne bi pisao odgovor.
> koji je video jednog..." Pa kao da su Hrvati clanovi neke tajne
> organizacije ;)
I ja kazem..
razno.23nenad,
-> #17, dr.iivan> Eh, Seselj pa Seselj.. Necu da ulazim u njegovu politiku, mozda je
> i u dilu sa Milosevicem, mozda i nije.
U to uopšte ne ulazim, nemam špijunske službe koje bi tako nešto
mogle da mi jave, ali ne sumnjam da će biti u dilu kada mu to
bude odgovaralo. Svi se sećaju kako su radikali po komandi
podizali ruku u skupštini dve godine (i još se Šešelj okreće i
gleda da li su svi podigli ;), a video si šta se desilo neki dan
u Skupštini Srbije... "Noćas smo prečešljali zakon i zaključili
da ipak nije tako loš", "jedan od najvećih izdajnika srpskog
naroda, Biljana Plavšić"...
> Za trenutak pokusaj da gledas
> samo ljude koji ce glasati za njega. Nadam se da si dosao do
> zakljucka da to nisu isti ljudi koji bi glasali i za Milosevica.
Upravo suprotno, i jedan i drugi svoje glasače mobilišu iz
sličnih socijalnih i kulturnih slojeva - izuzev "straight"
komunista sa kojima Šešelj ne koketira a Milošević računa i sa
njima. Najveći deo onih koji sada glasaju za Šešelja su pre 10
godina išli na mitinge podrške Miloševiću, kleli se u njega i
ustreptali slušali prenose sednica CK da ga čuju, do pre neku
godinu glasali za njega. Najlakša (pred samim sobom) im je sada
migracija ka Šešelju.
Pa pre neku godinu je Šešelj lično pozvao sve svoje glasače da na
predsedničkim izborima glasaju za Miloševića.
> Nisam stekao utisak da je u Hrvatskoj to isti centar moci. Izvor
> informacija mi je bila emisija "Ukrstene reci" na BK.
Pa upređivali smo procenat glasača za antidemokratsku i
ksenofobičnu politiku, u Hrvatskoj su oni uglavnom orijentisani
prema HDZ-u dok se ovde dele na glasače SPS-a i SRS-a.
> > Ne zaboravi da je Hrvatska pod Tudmanom i HDZ-om dobila rat,
> > ostvarila nezavisnu drzavu, sa znacajno smanjenim brojem
> > "nehrvatskog" stanovnistva.
> >
> > Mi smo vodeci politiku koju su personifikovali Milosevic i Seselj
> > dobili milion i po izbeglica, izgubili rat i ostali bez drzave, a
> > OPET toliko puno ljudi glasa za njih.
>
> Pa eto. Sve ovo sto si naveo ide u prilog mojoj tvrdnji da je nama
> ipak svetlija situacija od njihove. Da se razumemo, svetlija u
> smislu stepena demokratije ili bar njenom ostvarivanju.
Kako "sve ovo što sam naveo" može da ide u prilog tvojoj tvrdnji
da je kod nas situacija "svetlija"!? Pa kod nas su SPS i SRS
u zbiru procentualno osvojili i više glasova nego što je to HDZ u
Hrvatskoj, plus hrvatski glasači imaju "opravdanje" jer su uz HDZ
na vlasti dobili i rat, ostvarili nezavisnu državu, gotovo
"očistili" hrvatsku od Srba, dakle - praktično uspeli u svemu što
su naumili i obećali. Šta misliš koliko bi ovde glasova dobio
dvojac bez kormilara Milošević/Šešelj da je njihova "politika"
kojom ludom kombinacijom imala vojnog i političkog uspeha kao što
su ga imali Tuđman i HDZ?
razno.24ntadic,
Zna li neko neku turisticku agenciju koja vozi u Bugarsku, bez aranzmana ?
razno.25dr.iivan,
-> #23, nenad> > Eh, Seselj pa Seselj.. Necu da ulazim u njegovu politiku, mozda je
> > i u dilu sa Milosevicem, mozda i nije.
>
> U to uopste ne ulazim, nemam spijunske sluzbe koje bi tako nesto
> mogle da mi jave, ali ne sumnjam da ce biti u dilu kada mu to
> bude odgovaralo. Svi se secaju kako su radikali po komandi
Svi su oni u dilu sa svakim, ako im odgovara. Prema tome, necu da lupam
glavu ko je sa kim jer su oni svi isti. To je politika. Ovoga puta
gledam samo narod koji ce da glasa.
> u Skupstini Srbije... "Nocas smo precesljali zakon i zakljucili
> da ipak nije tako los", "jedan od najvecih izdajnika srpskog
> naroda, Biljana Plavsic"...
Za ovo drugo ne znam, ali prvo im nije trebalo. Ne znam kakav je zakon,
pa ne mogu da tvrdim da mozda i nije los, ali ta recenica mi se nekako
ne slaze sa radikalskim imidzom :( Ipak, valjda zna sta radi..
> > Za trenutak pokusaj da gledas
> > samo ljude koji ce glasati za njega. Nadam se da si dosao do
> > zakljucka da to nisu isti ljudi koji bi glasali i za Milosevica.
>
> Upravo suprotno, i jedan i drugi svoje glasace mobilisu iz
> slicnih socijalnih i kulturnih slojeva - izuzev "straight"
Ne, nisi u pravu. To mozda i jeste isti sloj ljudi, isti ljudi koji
su bili i za Milosevica, ali oni sada SIGURNO nece svoj glas dati
Milosevicu, ako na glasackom listicu pored njega bude bio Seselj !
> godinu glasali za njega. Najlaksa (pred samim sobom) im je sada
> migracija ka Seselju.
Pa zna Seselj sta radi. Znao je kako da se postavi da bi ih pridobio.
Ostali nisu uspeli, nisu mu dorasli. Pogledaj SRS pre 6 godina, a
pogledaj sada. Velika je to razlika, stranka je napredovala, znaju
ljudi sta rade, valjda ce znati i kad dodu na vlast.
Veruj mi, ostali nisu to uspeli ne zato sto nisu hteli tako da se
postave (da bi dobili glasace) nego zato sto nisu znali.
I Vuk, i Dindic, i Pera i Mika bi se postavili odavno kao Seselj, da su
znali da ce im to doneti glasove. Bi sigurno, cim su u politici.
> > Nisam stekao utisak da je u Hrvatskoj to isti centar moci. Izvor
> > informacija mi je bila emisija "Ukrstene reci" na BK.
>
> Pa upredivali smo procenat glasaca za antidemokratsku i
> ksenofobicnu politiku, u Hrvatskoj su oni uglavnom orijentisani
> prema HDZ-u dok se ovde dele na glasace SPS-a i SRS-a.
Nisam te dobro razumeo, u pravu si - tamo je to isti centar moci. Ali,
sto ima vise centara moci - to je verovatnoca da nisu svi isti veca.
> > Pa eto. Sve ovo sto si naveo ide u prilog mojoj tvrdnji da je nama
> > ipak svetlija situacija od njihove. Da se razumemo, svetlija u
> > smislu stepena demokratije ili bar njenom ostvarivanju.
>
> Kako "sve ovo sto sam naveo" moze da ide u prilog tvojoj tvrdnji
> da je kod nas situacija "svetlija"!? Pa kod nas su SPS i SRS
> u zbiru procentualno osvojili i vise glasova nego sto je to HDZ u
Pa da, samo sto su kod nas to dva centra, a kod njih jedan. Pogledaj
moju poslednju recenicu i bice ti jasno sta hocu da kazem.
> Hrvatskoj, plus hrvatski glasaci imaju "opravdanje" jer su uz HDZ
> na vlasti dobili i rat, ostvarili nezavisnu drzavu, gotovo
> "ocistili" hrvatsku od Srba, dakle - prakticno uspeli u svemu sto
> su naumili i obecali. Sta mislis koliko bi ovde glasova dobio
> dvojac bez kormilara Milosevic/Seselj da je njihova "politika"
> kojom ludom kombinacijom imala vojnog i politickog uspeha kao sto
> su ga imali Tudman i HDZ?
E, gledaj sada ovako. Da smo mi kojim slucajem dobili rat, Milosevic
bi imao sve preduslove i uslove da postane drugi drug Tito. Ovako
je ljudima jasnije na cemu su, uz mnogo vecu cenu naravno, i to bi
se moglo nazvati srecom u nesreci. Ovi u Hrvatskoj su verovatno u
zabludi, i verovatno ce biti jos dugo, jer misle da je Tudman dobitna
kombinacija, jer - dobili su drzavu, sa njim na celu. A ustvari to moze
biti gora kombinacija od Milosevica. To sto su dobili drzavu bi se ja
mislim desilo i da je bilo ko, osim Tudmana, vodio Hrvatsku.
Jednostavno, neko je gore to tako odlucio. Da je rekao ne Tudmanu -
tako bi i bilo. Ali nije.
razno.27gmatic,
-> #25, dr.iivan==> glavu ko je sa kim jer su oni svi isti. To je politika. Ovoga
==> puta gledam samo narod koji ce da glasa.
Gledaj ovce kako se strizu i pamti. To je pametno.
razno.28dbambi,
-> #25, dr.iivan=>
=> I Vuk, i Dindic, i Pera i Mika bi se postavili odavno kao Seselj, da su
=> znali da ce im to doneti glasove. Bi sigurno, cim su u politici.
=>
Ne budi siguran, svaka stranka ima mogućnost da razmisli o svom
nastupu i onda odredi svoju strategiju. Svakom je jasno da žabina
strategija trenutno donosi najviše glasova, jer biračkom telu
godi poplulizam, jeftina retorika i uopšte žabin klovnovski stil.
Ozbiljne stranke razmišljaju međutim šta posle toga svega, šta za
koju godinu. Da pojasnim stvari, i prvom programu RTS-a bi sigurno
porasla gledanost kada bi počeli da puštaju XXXX filmove u terminu
posle večernjeg dnevnika, ali srećom (za sada) tamo postoji neko
ko razmišlja o pojmovima " imati mere " i " imati osnove
civilizovanog ponašanja ". Zajapurena žaba je pobegla iz škole kada
su obrađivane ove teme.
Bambi
razno.29vsgdoo,
Jeste da nije bas tema ali 'ajde ...
LM, na NASA-inom siteu sam procitao (znaci zvanicno,
ne neki anti-Microsoft site), da je Mars Path Finder (vozilo koje
ovih dana istrazuje Mars, ako niste znali), opremljeno vecim delom
Microsoft-ovim softverom i da se od spustanja (pre jedno nedelju
dana) 3 (evo i slovima TRI) puta resetovalo !!!
Greetings to Billy ...
Pozdrav
Vladimir
razno.30supers,
Svoje proročke sposobnosti Antonije Pušić alias Rambo Amadeus pokazao
je i ovom pesmom, koja se nekim čudom ne zove Vojislav Šešelj.
Sav tekst sa albuma Titanik imate u konferenciji MUZIKA.
@ŠAKOM U GLAVU
==============
Kad mene neko pokušava iznervirati
Ja se uopšte ne dam isprovocirati
Zauzmem položaj u karakter stavu
I bez upozorenja šakom u glavu
Šakom u glavu
Jer ako govorim što ne valja
Može pogrešno da se protumači - taman tako
A ne bih baš volio stalno ni titulu lajavoga
Neprekidno da nosim na grbači
Pamet u glavu
Čitao sam u stručnoj literaturi
Da ako ne reaguješ ni verbalno ni fizički
Već sutra može da ti se odrazi na nervnoj bazi
Na nervnoj bazi psihički
razno.31miobrado,
-> #30, supers
Dajte, kolega, setite se samo Borislava Đorđevića (Bore)
i njegove "Priče o Žiki-živcu":
"Žika-živac je dobar k'o panja,
ako ga mnogo ne diraju.
On u principu izbegava sranja,
ali ga lako iznerviraju.
Žika je rođen sa čudesnim darom
sa'rani kad potegne desnicu
Zato je tuk'o samo šamarom
nije koristio pesnicu..."
ili, iz numere čijeg naslova ne mogu da se setim:
"... Udri rođeni sa'rani stoku
ne daj da ti bude trn u oku..."
razno.32gmatic,
-> #31, miobrado==> "... Udri rodeni sa'rani stoku
==> ne daj da ti bude trn u oku..."
Ja mislim da je to 'Hleba i igara' sa albuma 'Istina' (onaj sa 'andjelom').
razno.33dr.iivan,
-> #28, dbambi> => I Vuk, i Dindic, i Pera i Mika bi se postavili odavno kao Seselj, da
> su => znali da ce im to doneti glasove. Bi sigurno, cim su u politici.
>
> Ne budi siguran, svaka stranka ima mogucnost da razmisli o svom
> nastupu i onda odredi svoju strategiju. Svakom je jasno da zabina
Naravno da ima mogucnost. To svaka i radi u pocetku i to je najvise
vodi u politiku. Medutim, kasnije se pojavljuju velika raskrsca i
velika iskusenja, koja retko koja stranka hoce i moze da zaobidje.
Program i ideja stranke jeste velika platforma za istu. Ali, kasnije
se sve svede na to kako doci do vlasti, kako osvojiti glasace, jer je
svako ubeden da radi pravu stvar i da je najbolji. Tako se kasnije
i desi da skrene sa "pravog" puta i glasovi joj postanu glavna
preokupacija.
> koju godinu. Da pojasnim stvari, i prvom programu RTS-a bi sigurno
> porasla gledanost kada bi poceli da pustaju XXXX filmove u terminu
> posle vecernjeg dnevnika, ali srecom (za sada) tamo postoji neko
> ko razmislja o pojmovima " imati mere " i " imati osnove
> civilizovanog ponasanja ". Zajapurena zaba je pobegla iz skole kada
> su obradivane ove teme.
Molim te da sledeci put govoris o imenima, a ne ovako. Drugo, ne radi
se ovoga puta o "imati mere i osnove civ. pon.", vec se radi o
strategiji na duge staze. Treba prouciti kada ce, kako i u kojoj
situaciji (ako uradim to_i_to, ako se desi..) narod reagovati i u
skladu sa tim se postaviti unapred i jos mnogo toga.. Nema to puno
veze sa "imati mere..". Ne govorimo sada o televiziji, nekim konkretnim
potezima, kao ni o Seseljevom skorasnjem nastupu.
razno.34nenad,
-> #29, vsgdoo> LM, na NASA-inom siteu sam procitao (znaci zvanicno,
> ne neki anti-Microsoft site), da je Mars Path Finder (vozilo koje
> ovih dana istrazuje Mars, ako niste znali), opremljeno vecim delom
> Microsoft-ovim softverom i da se od spustanja (pre jedno nedelju
> dana) 3 (evo i slovima TRI) puta resetovalo !!!
Mislim da sam nešto čitao o ovome. Ni jedan suštinski bitan deo
misije ne zavisi od MS softvera (ni od bilo kog drugog third-party
softvera, kad smo već kod toga :), za to se naravno koristi
specijalno projektovan softver koji se izvršava na Unix-ima
(mislim da su u pitanju SGI i Sun stanice). Ako se dobro sećam
priče MS je platio neku sumu (radi reklame) i moguće je da neki
komad softvera i postoji tamo kao deo nekog od eksperimenata
sponzorisanog od MS-a.
razno.35tasicd,
Potrebne su mi informacije u vezi studija na Vi{oj Ugostiteljskoj
{koli u Beogradu.Ukoliko neko ko prati ovu konferenciju studira ili je studirao
na ovoj {koli,molim da se javi na tel.188-490,Gordana.
razno.36mmarkovic,
Obrada pesme MAKARENA ... ;>
Ups, a ovo nije muzika? Nema veze... ;>
P.S. Ko razume, shvatiće... ;>
dobardan.rarazno.37dule.n,
Još jedan prilog tvrdnji "Ko zna zašto je to dobro!"
Noćas imadoh problema sa spavanjem iz ..., nije bitno kojih razloga,
i normalno proverim šta nam nude naši TV kanali. Zaustavim se na
tren na BK jer sam video zaista čudne kadrove tamo. Shvatim da je
to emisija u kojoj prikazuju strane reklame (ne sećam se imena
emisije) ilustrujući kakve sve kvalitete može imati dobro napravljena
reklama.
Između mnogih reklama ureza mi se u sećanje ova:
Klinac se igra modelom automobila (znate one male koje smo svi mi
odbolovali kao klinci) vozeći ga po podu. U pitanju je bila neka
nedefinisana marka automobila. Pri svemu tome proizvodi dobro
poznate zvuke: brm, brm, brm, ... Tu je sa njim u sobi ćale kome
polako dosađuje taj zvuk. Kao rešenje, uzima mu iz ruku igračku,
na šta se klinac rastužuje. Međutim ćale mu daje ubrzo u zamenu
mnogo lepši model automobila, na prvi pogled prepoznatljivog, novijeg
tipa BMW-a. Tu se mali obraduje i počinje da "vozi" novog ljubimca.
Sad se međutim čuje ravnomerni tihi zvuk rada motora, neuporedivo
podnošljiviji za nervoznog ćaleta.
Poruka koja zatim ide je kratka i jasna:
" BMW diesel! "
Šta da kažem?
Uživao sam desetak minuta gledajući tvorevine slične ovoj!
razno.38pvlada,
-> #37, dule.n> to emisija u kojoj prikazuju strane reklame (ne sećam se imena
Emisija se zove Metamorfoza ;)
Pozdrav Vlada
razno.39dule.n,
-> #38, pvlada│ Emisija se zove Metamorfoza ;)
└───────────────────
Tako je! Bila mi je na vrh jezika. :)
razno.40dalex,
-> #37, dule.n>> tren na BK jer sam video zaista čudne kadrove tamo. Shvatim da je
>> to emisija u kojoj prikazuju strane reklame (ne sećam se imena
>> emisije) ilustrujući kakve sve kvalitete može imati dobro napravljena
>> reklama.
I ja sam gledao 'Metamorfozu' par puta. Doduše to je izbor stranih
reklama, imaju oni i onog čobanina što reklamira 'Lucky strike', al
opet, postoje i takve da se smrzneš...
>> Šta da kažem?
>> Uživao sam desetak minuta gledajući tvorevine slične ovoj!
Eeeee... A kad pogledaš ove naše tragičare... Da poželiš da su
spaljene i negde duboko zakopane. Domaće reklame kreću se u
dijapazonu riba_sa_što_manje_odeće_na_sebi_priča_nešto_nema_veze_šta
do klovnova_sa_iskrivljenim_naglaskom_koji_lupetaju_gluposti...
Efekat koji postižu je da se, ako ne promenim kanal (jer carevi puštaju
te gluposti i tokom utakmica, recimo :(((( ), zakunem da nikad neću
kupiti ništa od tog proizvođača...
Ono što shvatiš gledajući 'Metamorfozu' je da postoje reklame
koje baš želiš da vidiš/vidiš cele. To se meni desilo kod domaćih
reklama jedino sa onim Dragojevićevim za V.B.. Video sam na blic Koju
kako peva u onu zubarsku zujalicu, i posle sam jedva čekao da odgledam
natenane celu reklamu... Doduše, nisam siguran za moje matorce kolko
im se ta reklama svidela, al' ajd sad...
Poz!
razno.41dule.n,
-> #40, dalex│ koje baš želiš da vidiš/vidiš cele. To se meni desilo kod domaćih
│ reklama jedino sa onim Dragojevićevim za V.B.. Video sam na blic Koju
│ kako peva u onu zubarsku zujalicu, i posle sam jedva čekao da odgledam
│ natenane celu reklamu... Doduše, nisam siguran za moje matorce kolko
│ im se ta reklama svidela, al' ajd sad...
└───────────────────
Stvarno su Dragojevićeve reklame otkrovenje na našoj televiziji.
Te reklame daju pravi efekat kod ljudi koji su gledali njegov film LSLG.
Pretpostavljam da tvoji roditelji nisu gledali film, pa stoga se baš
i nisu zapalili za te reklame. :)
razno.42dalex,
-> #41, dule.n>> Stvarno su Dragojevićeve reklame otkrovenje na našoj televiziji.
>> Te reklame daju pravi efekat kod ljudi koji su gledali njegov film
>> LSLG. Pretpostavljam da tvoji roditelji nisu gledali film, pa stoga se
>> baš i nisu zapalili za te reklame. :)
Pa i nisu, al' ne mislim da je zato. Imali su prilike da gledaju
'Anđele', pa im se nisu svideli. To je džez između generacija.
U tom smislu kad sam kupio rokericu na koju sam osobito ponosan,
ćale reko 'Što kupi tu šofersku jaknu!?' ;) ...
Ja pokušo da mu objasnim koja je to dubina u 'Sisters of mercy',
a on kaže 'Neću da slušam to drekanje na stranom jeziku, OVO je
muzika!' i pusti 'Poji Mile volove na reci' :(((.
Tu još kaže 'To da slušaš, ovo su ti koreni!'.
Pobam ja lepo da mu objasnim 'Slušaj bre matori, kakvi koreni,
nikad ja nikakvog vola nisam pojio, nema šanse sa tim da se
IDENTIFIKUJEM!'.
Tu on, autoritetom oca porodice, presudi 'Pa ti ako ne možeš sa
Miletom, ti se identifikuj sa volom!' :)))))))))))))))))))))), i ovako
se zaceni, kao prodo mi je foru ;)...
Jazz, 'ebiga, nema tu pomoći...
Poz!
razno.43pvlada,
-> #40, dalex> Eeeee... A kad pogledaš ove naše tragičare... Da poželiš da su
> spaljene i negde duboko zakopane. Domaće reklame kreću se u
> dijapazonu riba_sa_što_manje_odeće_na_sebi_priča_nešto_nema_veze_šta
Nije baš tako, primetio sam da u poslednje vreme i mi imamo sve više
dobrih reklama, mada ima i starijih koje nislu loše kao naprimer za
Ktitor, mada su sada sve bolje ;)
Pozdrav Vlada
P.S. Nisu samo strane reklame, ima ponekad i naših.
razno.44gligo,
-> #40, dalex> koje bas zelis da vidis/vidis cele. To se meni desilo kod
> domacih reklama jedino sa onim Dragojevicevim za V.B.. Video
> sam na blic Koju kako peva u onu zubarsku zujalicu, i posle sam
> jedva cekao da odgledam natenane celu reklamu... Doduse, nisam
> siguran za moje matorce kolko im se ta reklama svidela, al' ajd
> sad...
Ja sam gledao metamorfozu, kad je gost bio Dragojevic, i gde je
bio prikazan jedan cenzurisan detalj koji V.B nije zelela u reklami
jer bi onda bila " suvise sokantna ".
E, sta ti je nas narod, dodato malo krvi i ovi se odma' uplasise.
razno.45dalex,
-> #44, gligo>> Ja sam gledao metamorfozu, kad je gost bio Dragojevic, i gde je
Gledao sam i ja tu emisiju. Dodao bih da je Dragojević, bar na mene,
ostavio utisak krajnje uobraženog tipa. Kako sam veliki
poštovalac njegovih filmova & reklama, rekao bih da ima i zašto da
se uobrazi ;)...
>> bio prikazan jedan cenzurisan detalj koji V.B nije zelela u reklami
>> jer bi onda bila " suvise sokantna ".
>>
>> E, sta ti je nas narod, dodato malo krvi i ovi se odma' uplasise.
Ovde, da budem iskren, moram da se složim sa V.B. Video sam tu reklamu
(Manda, frizer), celu, ne znam da li su je to ipak malo prikazivali
pre nego što su isekli, ili je nekom dunulo da pusti celu u datom trenutku,
i bila mi je " suvise šokantna ".
Poz!
razno.46pvlada,
-> #45, dalex> pre nego što su isekli, ili je nekom dunulo da pusti celu u datom
> trenutku, i bila mi je " suvise šokantna ".
A koji je to detalj, koji je isečen (pošto ja nisam gledao) ?
Pozdrav Vlada
razno.47n.ceh,
-> #45, dalex> Gledao sam i ja tu emisiju. Dodao bih da je Dragojević, bar na mene,
> ostavio utisak krajnje uobraženog tipa. Kako sam veliki
Jeste. Pored toga što jeste dobar redAtelj, uobrazio je da može da se bavi
marketingom, misleći da je to nešto što može bilo ko da radi, kako mu dune.
Da se ne bih upuštao u prepirku, pogledajte prepisku u TV reviji, protekla
dva tri broja...
razno.48miskop,
-> #46, pvlada--> A koji je to detalj, koji je isečen (pošto ja nisam gledao) ?
Komadi mozga i lobanje padaju u lavabo...
razno.49dr.iivan,
Pre par sati se vratih iz grada. Kakva noc! ;(
Htedoh negde, bilo gde, da izadjem, jer sam bio umoran, pa sam se nasao
u BUS-u. Bila je ogromna guzva, ne pamtim kada sam toliko ljudi video.
Uobicajeno vece domace muzike, nista posebno, nasao sam par poznatih
faca i slucajno, usput, smo razmenili par reci o dogadjaju od pre par
dana na SEX-u, sa kojim ste, nadam se, upoznati.
Nesto malo kasnije, oko 01:35 culo se kako je nesto puklo, i to veoma
jako, unutra, gde ima najvise ljudi. Prva asocijacija mi je bila pistolj,
a verujem i svima ostalima, jer - sta bi moglo da pukne? Kako sam bio
napolju, nisam mogao da vidim sta se desava i sta je to puklo, ali par
sekundi kasnije su svi koji su bili unutra odjednom poceli da beze
napolje. Trebalo je videti toliko ljudi koji beze glavom bez obzira,
preko stolica, stolova, sankova, guranje na sve strane, padanje, koje
je svakim trenom sve vise raslo. Vecina nije ni znala od cega bezi, a
ostatak ljudi koji je stojao napolju, a medju kojima sam bio i ja,
kada je videlo toliku masu kako bezi je panicno pocelo da radi to isto,
ali - nema gde. Iza su resetke i Tas, gde ne moze da se prodje, pa je
nastalo veliko guranje, padanje, PANIKA, vristanje. Svi su se skupili
u coskove, pouceni valjda iskustvom sa SEX-a od pre neko vece, i svi
su zurili ka zatvorenom delu BUS-a ocekujuci da vide sta se zapravo
desava. To je trajalo par sekundi, a onda je krenula nova masa, koja
je bila jos snaznija i veca, i koji su bezali jos brze i bezobzirnije.
Kada su to ostali videli, jos su se vise uspanicili, zakljucujuci da se
to sto se desilo, jos uvek desava! Svi su poceli da se sabijaju u
coskove, dok su na drugoj strani ljudi bezali napolje, i pregazili onu
ogradu sto stoji od trske. Za njima su krenuli i ostali, to je bilo
ludilo, guranje, vristanje, i niko nije znao sta se desava dok nije
pocelo da stipa. Onda sam ustanovio da je neki kreten bacio suzavac u
NAJVECU guzvu u ZATVOREN prostor. Bio sam 10tak metara od ulaza i nisam
mogao da gledam i disem od suzavca! Ne mogu ni da zamislim kako je bilo
onima unutra! Reka ljudi je bezala, prosto nisam mogao da verujem da je
toliko ljudi stalo unutra. Bilo ih je sigurno _minimum_ 400-500, mada
nisam vest pri tim procenama. I 20-30-40 metara od BUS-a je stipalo..
Svi su plakali, ubrzo (10-15min) dodje milicija..
Posle mi jedna devojka kaze da je puklo blizu nje i da su kod tog
mesta, neka trojica bila tu celo vece, nesto su se smejali, a mozda
bili i uduvani.
Sve u svemu - uzas! Dosta ljudi je palo, neki su jedva hodali. Kod
one trske koja je pala bila je zategnuta zica nekih 10-15cm iznad
zemlje, taman da se sapletes i tu je dosta ljudi palo.
Pitanje: Sta jos treba da se desi, koliko ljudi treba da pogine, koliko
psihopata da ostvari svoje namere, da bi obezbedjenje diskoteka i
slicnih mesta pocelo da funkcionise?
Da ljudi ne budu u zabludi, ova obezbedjenja u vecini mesta nikada nisu
ni funkcionisala. Samo je bilo pitanje vremena kada ce se desiti SEX
i ovo sada.
Mogu samo da budem srecan sto tip nije imao bombu, a ne suzavac.
Sreca u nesreci je i to sto sam kada je toliko ljudi izaslo napolje,
video koliko je dobrih riba bilo unutra ;) mada su sve plakale ;)
Ali ubrzo posle toga mi se raspolozenje ponovo pogorsalo, jer je
autobusu pukla guma, pa je bilo veselo ;(
Uh, kakva noc.. Idem da spavam, a vi pazite gde izlazite.
p.s. Ako neko bude o ovome citao u novinama, neka nas obavesti, bas da
vidim koliko ih je, i ko, objavilo da se nesto desilo..
razno.50junior,
-> #49, dr.iivan> Uh, kakva noc.. Idem da spavam, a vi pazite gde izlazite.
Veselo. :)
A šta je bilo na SEXu pre par dana?
razno.51vujke,
-> #50, juniorBilo je malo pucanja, malo mrtvih i malo ranjenih.Nista vise.
razno.52pvlada,
-> #49, dr.iivan> sekundi kasnije su svi koji su bili unutra odjednom poceli da beze
> napolje. Trebalo je videti toliko ljudi koji beze glavom bez obzira,
> preko stolica, stolova, sankova, guranje na sve strane, padanje, koje
> je svakim trenom sve vise raslo. Vecina nije ni znala od cega bezi, a
Kada sam išao jednom sa mojim Stricem da kupi gorivo do Rumunske granice,
kada je još ono bila kriza, došli smo do granice i to postoji jedno veliko
polje na kome se prodavao benzin, a odmah pored toga neke sitnice. Ja sam
ostao u kolima, a moj stric je otišao da kupi gorivo i posle jedno 5min
sam video crno nebo i kako ljudi jure i vrište, kola se sudaraju i nastavljaju
samo da se pobegne. U prvom trenutju sam pomislio da je počela provala oblaka,
pošto je bilo slično nebo 2-3 pre toga kada sam se vraćao sa bazena :) Nikad
nisam video tolku, paniku, pa ni na demonstracijama iako je i tamo bilo dosta
toga ;)
Pozdrav Vlada
razno.53castrvm,
-> #52, pvlada> samo da se pobegne. U prvom trenutju sam pomislio da je pocela provala
> oblaka, posto je bilo slicno nebo 2-3 pre toga kada sam se vracao sa bazena
> :) Nikad nisam video tolku, paniku, pa ni na demonstracijama iako je i tamo
> bilo dosta toga ;)
a sta je bilo na kraju ?
razno.54pvlada,
-> #53, castrvm> a sta je bilo na kraju ?
Na kraju samo izgoreo auto sa 800l benzina, ali neku nedelju pre
toga kad je jedan Rumun hteo da prekine kanap kojim jsu bila
vezana 2 kanistra koristio je upaljač i zapalilo se 7 automobila
i neki ljudi su poginuli, ali na sreću ovog puta samo je ostao
lim na autu ;)
Pozdrav Vlada
razno.55ntadic,
Zna li neko za neku prodavnicu gde ima sirok izbor rucnih satova,
malo boljih marki( Casio, Longines, Fossil...) ?
razno.57supers,
-> #99, chill>> U pitanju je osam Mercedesa i dva M.A.N.-a, stari (u proseku) petnaest
>> godina. S obzirom da vozila imaju samo po dvoja vrata, biće
>> rasporedjeni po prigradskim linijama (kažu da je tako praktičnije).
Šta? Znači, to je sve što je stiglo od mase obećavanih autobusa iz svih
gradova Evrope? Šta je sa onim Neoplanom koji je letos saobraćao na
liniji 16?
razno.58pvlada,
-> #57, supers> Šta? Znači, to je sve što je stiglo od mase obećavanih autobusa iz svih
> gradova Evrope? Šta je sa onim Neoplanom koji je letos saobraćao na
Stiglo bi još, ali vlada nije odobrila. Ustvari bila je odobrila 10 autobusa,
ali sad kada su došli do granice neda da uđu.
Pozdrav Vlada
razno.59dbambi,
-> #57, supers=>>> U pitanju je osam Mercedesa i dva M.A.N.-a, stari (u proseku) petnaest
=>>> godina. S obzirom da vozila imaju samo po dvoja vrata, biće
=>>> rasporedjeni po prigradskim linijama (kažu da je tako praktičnije).
=>
=> Šta? Znači, to je sve što je stiglo od mase obećavanih autobusa iz svih
=> gradova Evrope? Šta je sa onim Neoplanom koji je letos saobraćao na
=> liniji 16?
Ako misliš na onaj niskopodni šareni autobus, još uvek se kotrlja
na toj liniji. Par puta sam se provozao u njemu i mogu reći da je
utisak baš onako....:). Kamo sreće da su nam svi busevi takvi.
Bambi
razno.60bastion,
Bio je petak. Odlucih da odem u XL. Krenem....
(Slika sve govori)
xl.jpgrazno.61chill,
Eh, da mi je da ovako nešto lepe
po banderama umesto njegovih plakata... :))
(Slobina umrlica iz 1992-3 godine)
pokojnik.jpgrazno.63castrvm,
Zna li neko nesto o agenciji holiday regens ili tako nesto ?
To su oni sto prave ankete po ulici , pa te zovu telefonom
u hotel na neko izvlacenje nagrada .
razno.64medical,
-> #63, castrvm
Zaboravi na tu agenciju...
Nagrade su tipa odlazak na more, uz mogucnost OTPLATE
na vise rata. Nemoj da nasednes na tako nesto.
Ako te slucajno izvuku (pre cete izvuci nego sto nece),
i ako ti je mesto odrzavanja u blizini, onda idi cisto da se
najedes i napijes, ali pripazi na ponude koje ces dobiti.
Sinisa
razno.65zoxy,
-> #63, castrvm> Zna li neko nesto o agenciji holiday regens ili tako nesto ?
> To su oni sto prave ankete po ulici , pa te zovu telefonom
> u hotel na neko izvlacenje nagrada .
Prevaranti...
Fora im je u tome da te kao anketiraju i "neverovatnom srecom" ti si izvucen
za potencijalnog dobitnika "cega_ sve_ ne" (pocev od letovanja, zimovanja, pa
do time sharing aranzmana)...
Biraju porodicne ljude (smatrajuci da su oni puniji para i prijemciviji za te
fore) ili jednostavno izvukku adrese boljih (i onih drugih) firmi iz
privrednog adresara.
Na toj prezentaciji na koju treba da odes odmah dobijete (ti i zena) pratioca
koji je zaduzen samo za vas. Lagano te ispipaju kolko para imas i ako utvrde
da si plen za njih, jednostavno te ne pustaju ni u WC da odes... Tolko te
ubedjuju, obecavaju, da pristanes na njihove aranzmane i das pare, cak "ne
trba sve, daj sad prvu ratu... nije vazno, kolko imas pri sebi", da ti
jednostavno postane vise neprijatno i.... zajebes se :)))
Idu na foru da ih 1000 odjebe ali jedan se upeca... a na tom jednom su mnooogo
dobri :)))
Ima tu jos price o njihovim forama ali ukratko :PREVARANTI!
razno.66morkin,
-> #63, castrvm> Zna li neko nesto o agenciji holiday regens ili tako nesto ?
> To su oni sto prave ankete po ulici , pa te zovu telefonom
> u hotel na neko izvlacenje nagrada .
Pokušavaju da prodaju time-sharing apartmane. Ako je u pitanju
apartman u Brzeću, košta oko 6000 DEM, a ako je u pitanju Španija i
Costa Del Nešto, onda košta između 30000 DEM i 12000 DEM, zavisno od
varijante koja se uplati.
U slučaju Brzeća se ne isplati uopšte jer je daleko od ski staza.
Odgovara samo onome ko voli planinu leti. Ali, planina leti
narednih sto godina i ne izgleda nešto primamljivo.
Ovi drugi su međunarodna organizacija. Nije krađa, ali je pitanje
koliko se isplati. Imaš besplatan smeštaj praktično bilo gde u
svetu za sedam dana u hotelu sa pet zvezdica. Plaćaš hranu i prevoz
do tamo. Prednost ovog sistema je što možeš da menjaš svoj apartman
za neki drugi na bilo kom mestu u svetu (kataalog sa spiskom
raspoloživih mesta je vrlo debbeo i kvalitetno urađen). Pokrivena
je bukvalno cela Zemlja, od Aljaske do Novog Zelanda.
Idealno za nekoga ko ima ogroman popust za putovanja (moj slučaj) i
puno para (nije moj slučaj).
Ako imaš 30000 DEM i ako voliš da putuješ, to je pravi izbor.
U svakom slučaju treba ići na tu prezentaciju. Guše te i smaraju
jedno pet sati, a na kraju prezentacije izvlače nagradu - boravak od
sedam dana na mestu koje prodaju. Trik je da ti plaćaš put i hranu,
a smeštaj je njihov. Idi, možda te izvuku, a i videćeš
profesionalne prodavce na delu.
razno.67pvlada,
-> #63, castrvm> Zna li neko nesto o agenciji holiday regens ili tako nesto ?
Nog ćaleta su anketirali preko telefona tako što ga je preporučio neko iz
nekog kluba i dobili smo 7 dana na Tenarifima (kanarska ostrva) za 4 osobe
u nekim apartmanima sa 5 *, uz jedini uslov da odemo kada budemo tamo jednom
na njihovu prezentaciju i da platimo prevoz, ali nismo otišli pošto sam ja
bio pao na popravni ;(
Pozdrav Vlada
P.S. Na toj proslavi kada su mojima uručivali nagradu nagovarali su ih da
zakupe negde u španiji isto neki apartman sa 5* za 10000DM na 100god. na
2 nedelje godišnje, s' tim što bi mogli umesto te 3 nedelje da letujemo u
tom apartmanu mogli i da se menjamo sa nekim za neki drugi.
razno.68jjerry,
E ,jel' mozhe neko da mi nadje negde statistiku kol'ko ima
mushkaraca sa bar jednom mindjushom u svetu.
P.S Sere mi komshinica da su mindjushe samo za zhene :)))))
Poz.
razno.69firus,
-> #68, jjerry> P.S Sere mi komshinica da su mindjushe samo za zhene :)))))
Pravo ti žena kaže ... B)))
razno.70naumov,
-> #68, jjerryTo sto ti sere komsinica i nije toliko strasno.
Juce sam se vracao kuci ulicom Lole Ribara (inace imam dve mindjuse u istom
uvetu i kosu ofarbanu,ali se tesko primecuje jer izgleda prilicno
prirodno-svetlo smedja) i neki tip mi prisao i pitao da li sam musko ili
zensko,a kada sam mu ja rekao ,prilicno iznerviran da sam zensko on mi je
rekao:"Dodji da te jebem!"
Pozdrav,Rastko!
razno.71zeljkoj,
-> #70, naumov> Juce sam se vracao kuci ulicom Lole Ribara (inace imam dve
> mindjuse u istom uvetu i kosu ofarbanu,ali se tesko primecuje
> jer izgleda prilicno
A koja ti je prirodna boja? :)
razno.72jjerry,
-> #70, naumov>>Juce sam se vracao kuci ulicom Lole Ribara (inace imam dve mindjuse
>>u istom uvetu i kosu ofarbanu,ali se tesko primecuje jer izgleda
>>prilicno prirodno-svetlo smedja) i neki tip mi prisao i pitao da li
>>sam musko ili zensko,a kada sam mu ja rekao ,prilicno iznerviran da
>>sam zensko on mi je rekao:"Dodji da te jebem!"
Pa jebiga...ja iskreno ne vidim blam u noshenju mindjushe,ili
farbanju kose i to...Shta to ikog boli bre shta ti radish...
Dodushe,to se nije smelo pre 50 godina,ali sada...
Bre uzmi samo Engleze za primer...svako drugo dete nosi mindjushu
i sasvim je ok...Al' ovde za neke debile nije ok..Shta cesh..Balkan
rules :)
Pozdrav.
§JţÔÔśř
razno.73saint,
-> #72, jjerry
Neces primetiti nikakvu razliku sto se tice mindjuse...
Moj burazer je probusio uvo pre negde godinu dana
sada nosi mindjusu i idalje je ludak ;)
Sisa se na celcu tako da je sasvim normalno...
razno.74saint,
Prica mi jedan covek crnogorac:
Nosi mindusu
Dugu kosu
Jos samo da sedne da pisa pa da ga ubijem...
razno.75jjerry,
-> #73, saint>>Neces primetiti nikakvu razliku sto se tice mindjuse...
Ne znam zashto mislish da sam bushio uvo radi neke razlike...
Ja eto hocu BASH tako,a ostali mogu da misle shta hoce i za to
mene chisto zabole :)
>> Moj burazer je probusio uvo pre negde godinu dana
>> sada nosi mindjusu i idalje je ludak ;)
Uuuu :) A shta je ranije bio...
>> Sisa se na celcu tako da je sasvim normalno...
To je bash ql...nekako..celavo i mindjusha idu zajedno :)
razno.76saint,
-> #75, jjerry=> Ne znam zashto mislish da sam bushio uvo radi neke razlike...
=> Ja eto hocu BASH tako,a ostali mogu da misle shta hoce i za to
=> mene chisto zabole :)
Ti oces samo zato da bi kao bio drugaciji od drugih
=> Uuuu :) A shta je ranije bio...
Ludak
=> To je bash ql...nekako..celavo i mindjusha idu zajedno :)
Idu
razno.77saint,
-> #74, saint=> Nosi mindusu
=> Dugu kosu
=> Jos samo da sedne da pisa pa da ga ubijem...
Pricao je za svog sincica...
razno.78jjerry,
-> #76, saint>>=> Ne znam zashto mislish da sam bushio uvo radi neke razlike...
>>=> Ja eto hocu BASH tako,a ostali mogu da misle shta hoce i za to
>>=> mene chisto zabole :)
>>
>> Ti oces samo zato da bi kao bio drugaciji od drugih
Neee...greshish,ovaj...greshish silno sine...
Konkretno,video sam mnogo mushkaracaa koji nose mindjushe
koji nose mindjushe,i bash im ql stoji..Naravno ,postoji neka
granica,recimo,da ne uzmesh sad i da se ceo izbushish :) ali
video si i sam puno ljudi koji nose mindjushu u pupku ili iznad
obrve i tako to...Ja mislim da kad bi ih pitao zashto to nose,ne
verujem da bi ti iko rekao neshto konkretno...
Dakle,stavio sam zato shto mislim da je lepo,a dobro znash da ljudi
preterano ne vole ljude koji se po nechemu radikalno razlikuju tako
da bash svi ne volimo da shtrchimo :))
Pozdrav!
§JţÔÔśř
razno.79aljosa,
-> #70, naumov> zensko,a kada sam mu ja rekao ,prilicno iznerviran da sam zensko on mi je
> rekao:"Dodji da te jebem!"
Pa šta bi? ;)))
razno.80saint,
-> #78, jjerry
vec si busio uvo?
razno.81dr.iivan,
Da li je tacno da je u nekim zapadnim zemljama kao sto je Austrija,
pa i Slovenija zabranjeno pusenje na ulici?
Ako jeste, koji je razlog tome?
razno.82zeljkoj,
> From: "Ivan" <the.edge@EUnet.yu>
> Subject: !!!
> Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:21:44 +0100
>
> Procitaj ovo...ako vec nisi...
>
> ATLANTA (Reuters) - Coca-Cola Company chairman and chief
> executive officer Roberto Goizueta died of lung cancer at an
> Atlanta hospital early Saturday, the company said. He was 65.
>
> Goizueta was diagnosed with lung cancer in September and was
> being treated with chemotherapy and radiation. He was
> readmitted to Emory University Hospital on Oct. 8 with a throat
> infection, which worsened because the cancer therapies had
> weakened his immune system.
>
> Goizueta, who had been chairman of Coca-Cola since 1981, died
> just after midnight, the company said.
>
> "Every one of the nearly one million members of the extended
> Coca-Cola family around the world feels the greatest sense of
> loss today," Coca-Cola president and chief operating officer
> Douglas Ivester said.
>
> "All of us have lost a great leader and I have lost a great
> mentor and my friend. Out hearts go out to Olguita, Roberto's
> wife, his children and his grandchildren," Ivester said.
>
> During the 16 years that Goizueta was the company's chief
> executive officer, Coca-Cola's market value rose from $4
> billion in 1981 to almost $150 billion. The Havana-born son of
> a sugar refinery owner joined the company's Cuban operations in
> 1954. He left Cuba in 1961.
>
> Funeral services for Goizueta were scheduled for Tuesday
> morning at the Holy Spirit Catholic Church in Atlanta.
> Coca-Cola offices around the world will be closed on Tuesday,
> company spokesman Randy Donaldson said.
>
> A tribute service for Coca-Cola employees was scheduled to take
> place at the Atlanta Civic Center on Wednesday afternoon.
>
> The company's board of directors may choose Ivester, who became
> Coca-Cola's president and chief operating officer in 1994, to
> replace Goizueta at a meeting expected to take place late next
> week.
>
> "In terms of a successor, there's the president of the company,
> Doug Ivester, but the board must elect the chairman and that's
> up to the board," spokesman Donaldson said.
>
> Under Goizueta's leadership, the company introduced diet Coke
> and "new" Coke, streamlined its bottling and distribution
> system, and created businesses in China, Russia and India.
>
> "No one loved the Coca-Cola Company more than Roberto," said
> Coca-Cola board member Warren Buffett, chairman and chief
> executive officer of Berkshire Hathaway.
>
> "His greatest legacy is the way he so carefully selected and
> then nurtured the future leadership of his company. I know he
> took enormous pride in the leadership team he put in place to
> continue the great success the Company has enjoyed. He was a
> great leader and a great gentleman," Buffett said.
>
> A Coca-Cola board meeting on Thursday was the first Goizueta
> had missed in the 16 years since he was appointed chairman of
> the soft drink giant.
>
> "Roberto was a man of incomparable wisdom, vision and
> compassion," James Williams, chief executive officer of
> SunTrust Banks and a Coca-Cola board member said. "Those
> qualities benefited not only the company, but the community as
> well."
>
> "Personal accolades did not mean much to Roberto. In fact, he
> was somewhat embarrassed by them," Williams said. "But he was
> very proud of what the company has achieved and the recognition
> it and all of its employees have been given over the last
> several years."
>
razno.83kum.djole,
Umro je Dragan Nikitović, doajen sportskog novinarstva Beograda, Srbije,
Jugoslavije, cele planete..
Nek je večna slava velikom virtuozu, dragom Nikiti.
razno.84giovanni,
-> #81, dr.iivanĘ? pa i Slovenija zabranjeno pusenje na ulici?
Ę? Ako jeste, koji je razlog tome?
A šta ti misliš?
razno.85dr.iivan,
-> #84, giovanni> Ę? pa i Slovenija zabranjeno pusenje na ulici?
> Ę? Ako jeste, koji je razlog tome?
>
> A sta ti mislis?
Sta? Da li je zabranjeno ili zasto je zabranjeno? :)
Mislim da je verovatno zabranjeno, jer sam cuo da je tako u nekim
zapadnijim zemljama, pa, posto su Slovenci gospoda (bez zezanja)...
E sad, zasto - to mi stvarno nije jasno. Pikavci, sta li.. ?
Btw, hvala na odgovoru :)
razno.86dr.iivan,
-> #83, kum.djole> Umro je Dragan Nikitovic, doajen sportskog novinarstva Beograda,
> Srbije, Jugoslavije, cele planete..
> Nek je vecna slava velikom virtuozu, dragom Nikiti.
A preminuo je ovih dana i jedan decak romske nacionalnosti...
Svi su odjednom osudili taj cin, kao i pojavu fasizma u Srbiji, kao
da se fasizam sada pojavio! Skinheadsi ovde postoje jos poodavno, ali
se time niko nije bavio dok se ovo nije desilo.
Bas ih briga, vazno je da se nista ne desava, a kada se desi... ma, sada
se ne desava :<
Ista stvar i sa JDP.
Instalacije nisu valjale, ali sta to ima veze, kad se do sad nista nije
desilo.. A kada se desi.. (kao sto je sada) ma, do sad se nije desilo..
Sada prave aukcije i razne akcije, sakupljaju milione dinara, a pre
nedelju-dve trebalo je da sakupe samo tih par stotina hiljada za
instalacije..
Niko da se seti to javno da kaze.
Mozda bi se onda neko podsetio da sada popravi instalacije u recimo NP-u.
Ili opet da se saceka dok ne ubiju nekog..
razno.87askripka,
-> #86, dr.iivan=- A preminuo je ovih dana i jedan decak romske nacionalnosti...
=-
=- Svi su odjednom osudili taj cin, kao i pojavu fasizma u Srbiji, kao
=- da se fasizam sada pojavio! Skinheadsi ovde postoje jos poodavno, ali
=- se time niko nije bavio dok se ovo nije desilo.
Opet još jedna podvala ovoga sistema, nažalost potpuno uspela.
Nekome je očigledno trebalo malo skretanja pažnje sa nekih drugih stvari pa se
neko (verovatno nadležne službe za takve stvari) lukavo dosetio da od jednog
ubistva napravi medijsku senzaciju. Očigledno uspešno, u šta ne treba sumnjati
kada su takve službe u pitanju.
Očigledna je namera da se proturi nešto zdravo za gotovo najširim slojevima
stanovništva koji naravno nemaju pojma o čemu se radi. Pa koliko ljudi uopšte
zna ko su i šta su SkinHeads-i? Znaš li ti? Lako je pretpostaviti, s obzirom
kako bije naša policija, da bi u slučaju neke potrebe barem 90% ljudi koji iz
svojih pobuda ili prinude nose određeni tip frizure pre ili kasnije 'priznali'
da su 'SkinHeads'-i, 'BlowJobHeads'-i, ili svejedno ko i šta. Nije čak ni
bitno da li su čuli ko su i šta su ti... Priznaće i da su spremali atentat na
predsednika ako treba...
Poenta je: zašto tolika buka? SVA ubistva su podjednako loša ili grozna stvar.
Ne vidim zašto je ovo gore od onoga kad neko ubije čitavu porodicu zbog par
stotina maraka. Ali, o onima se ne piše više od obične vesti, ne organizuju se
neke kolone protesta... Zašto?
Još jednom ako nisam bio jasan: naravno da je strašno to što se desilo. Ali ne
vidim baš nikakav razlog da se to toliko uzdiže na neki nivo 'viši' od ostalih
slučajeva ubistava. To ne sme da se dozvoli. Svako treba da odgovara. Neki i
za mnogo teža dela koja mnogo brzo zaboravljena. Čijom zaslugom? Da li onih
koji dižu buku oko ovoga?
razno.88kostja,
-> #87, askripka=> neko (verovatno nadležne službe za takve stvari) lukavo dosetio da od
=> jednog ubistva napravi medijsku senzaciju. Očigledno uspešno, u šta ne
Da, stvarno je "lukavo" dići buku oko "sitnice" da je jedan
13-to godišnji dečak pretučen na smrt.
=> stanovništva koji naravno nemaju pojma o čemu se radi. Pa koliko ljudi
=> uopšte zna ko su i šta su SkinHeads-i? Znaš li ti? Lako je pretpostaviti,
=> s obzirom kako bije naša policija, da bi u slučaju neke potrebe barem 90%
=> ljudi koji iz svojih pobuda ili prinude nose određeni tip frizure pre ili
=> kasnije 'priznali' da su 'SkinHeads'-i, 'BlowJobHeads'-i, ili svejedno ko
Mogu ja da probam.... humanitarna organizacija? Kulturno-umetničko
društvo? A možda su kreteni kakvih nema?
Bila je već rasprava po tom pitanju... najlepši deo rasprave je
bila poruka koja je govorila o pokušaju Slovenaca da se učlane
u svetsku organizaciju SkinHeads-a (kao i njihov odgovor).
=> Ne vidim zašto je ovo gore od onoga kad neko ubije čitavu porodicu zbog
=> par stotina maraka. Ali, o onima se ne piše više od obične vesti, ne
=> organizuju se neke kolone protesta... Zašto?
Mislim da se vraćaš na slučaj iz Pohorske ulice. Koliko me
sećanje služi (a služi me dobro... hvala na pitanju) taj
zločin nije prošao tako mirno kako si ti predstavio.
PS. Da nisi ti slučajno obrijan do glave?
razno.89askripka,
-> #88, kostja=- Da, stvarno je "lukavo" dići buku oko "sitnice" da je jedan
=- 13-to godišnji dečak pretučen na smrt.
Naravno da je 'lukavo'. Tvoja reakcija to najbolje potvrđuje.
A što se tiče onog 'sitnice'... da si hteo da čitaš moju poruku kako treba,
video bi šta piše na početku poslednjeg pasusa poruke. Podsetiću te:
- Još jednom ako nisam bio jasan: naravno da je strašno to što se desilo.
=-=> kasnije 'priznali' da su 'SkinHeads'-i, 'BlowJobHeads'-i, ili svejedno ko
=-
=- Mogu ja da probam.... humanitarna organizacija? Kulturno-umetničko
=- društvo? A možda su kreteni kakvih nema?
Naravno da možeš da probaš.
Btw, čini mi se da je javljeno da su uhapšeni iz Batajnice.
SkinHeads-i u Batajnici?!? :))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Šta će biti sztra? Možda 'Punk-eri i Donjim Mrčajevcima'?
Da nije tragično, bilo bi zaista smešno...
=- Mislim da se vraćaš na slučaj iz Pohorske ulice. Koliko me
=- sećanje služi (a služi me dobro... hvala na pitanju) taj
=- zločin nije prošao tako mirno kako si ti predstavio.
Kako te sećanje služi, nisam ni pitao. Ali pitanje jeste koliko daleko ono
doseže.
=- PS. Da nisi ti slučajno obrijan do glave?
Nebitno. Moj stav nije zasnovan na dužini kose koju imam ili nemam.
razno.90dejank,
-> #87, askripka> stanovništva koji naravno nemaju pojma o čemu se radi. Pa koliko ljudi
> uopšte zna ko su i šta su SkinHeads-i? Znaš li ti? Lako je pretpostaviti,
Šta hoćeš time da kažeš? Ili, objasni ti kako ih vidiš.
Što se mene lično tiče prilično dobro poznajem i njihovu filozofiju i
ideje i način ponašanja većine njih jer sam svojevremeno u srednjoj
školi imao više njih u odeljenju. Uglavnom su to bili ljudi željni
avantura, tuča i sl. koji su usput pričali neke fašističke ideje,
i stekao sam utisak da većina njih ima želju da skrene pažnju na sebe
često i neverujući u ideje koji su sami pričali. Bio je istina, i
jedan ortak sa kojim sam par puta imao žučne rasprave posle čega bih
ostao zapanjen bolesnim idejama, snagom vere koju je ovaj imao u iste
i količinim mržnje prema svim 'obojenim'.
Hoću da kažem da većina tih ljudi mrzi, ali ne zna zašto, čime se otvara
mogućnost da se vrate na pravi put ako im se objasne neke stvari, tim
pre što oni i nisu svesni kakvoj organizaciji pripadaju, i koje bi
zlo donelo sprovođenje ideja za koje se oni sami zalažu. U vreme dok
sam poznavao te skinse (ne znam kako je sada), biti skinhead je bilo
gotovo samo pitanje muzike koju slušaš, što za sobom vodi i ceo imidž
kao i kod drugih vrsta muzike, znači skoro kao biti panker ili metalac.
> Poenta je: zašto tolika buka? SVA ubistva su podjednako loša ili grozna
> stvar. Ne vidim zašto je ovo gore od onoga kad neko ubije čitavu porodicu
> zbog par stotina maraka. Ali, o onima se ne piše više od obične vesti, ne
> organizuju se neke kolone protesta... Zašto?
Jedna stvar je kada iza ubistva stoji pojedinac, a druga ako iza toga
stoji neka organizacija koja se uostalom i zalaže za slične stvari.
Siguran sam da ovi klinci nisu imali nameru da ubiju ono dete ali po
meni i prebijanje deteta samo zato što je Rom je skoro jednako zlo,
tim pre što se to svakodnevno dešava. Treba stati na put tome, treba
otvoriti oči ostalim klincima koji nisu svesni šta ustvari rade.
razno.91dejank,
-> #89, askripka> Btw, čini mi se da je javljeno da su uhapšeni iz Batajnice.
> SkinHeads-i u Batajnici?!? :))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
> Šta će biti sztra? Možda 'Punk-eri i Donjim Mrčajevcima'?
> Da nije tragično, bilo bi zaista smešno...
Šta bi to bilo smešno? Zar ima veze odakle su?
razno.92dalex,
-> #87, askripka> Poenta je: zašto tolika buka? SVA ubistva su podjednako loša ili grozna
> stvar. Ne vidim zašto je ovo gore od onoga kad neko ubije čitavu porodicu
> zbog par stotina maraka. Ali, o onima se ne piše više od obične vesti, ne
> organizuju se neke kolone protesta... Zašto?
Po meni, potpuno je logično da neki slučajevi ubistva dobijaju veći,
a neki manji publicitet. Kad se kriminalci pokokaju između sebe, što se
dešava relativno često, publicitet zavisi od same ličnosti,
od nekih njihovih 'saradnika', koji žele da izboksuju manju
ili veću pompu, i njihovih mogućnosti da to izvedu, ali, u suštini,
nikog to naročito ne zabrinjava...
Kada neko bude ubijen u pljački sa razbojništvom, što se takođe često
dešava , publicitet zavisi od načina (brutalnosti) ubistva, diže se
buka da počinilac bude uhvaćen, ali, obzirom da ove stvari spadaju
(na žalost) u uobičajenu sudsku praksu izdvajaju se po publicitetu
uglavnom zbog bizarnosti detalja...
Ukoliko bude ubijen ministar policije, logično je da se digne velika pompa,
jer on oličava instituciju koja bi od nasilja trebalo da nas štiti.
Na žalost, u ovoj zemlji već postoji niz paradoksa tipa da ti država
ukrade novac za koji ti garantuje, što bi u prevodu značilo da je i nema,
pa i na ubistvo ministra/bilo kog policajca ljudi oguglaju...
Ako nekoliko 15 godišnjaka ubije 12 godišnjaka, pred više svedoka,
u centru prestonice, bez ikakvog motiva osim čiste obesti,
normalno je da slučaj dobije veliku medijsku pažnju. Uopšte,
bilo koji slučaj ubistva deteta nužno -treba- da bude oštrije tretiran
kako od medija, tako i od policije,što ne znači da ostale zločine treba
dopuštati, nego da u ovakvim stvarima postoji dodatni motiv i
kriminalcu/siledžiji mora biti jasno da će odgovarati ako ugrožava dete,
a kamo lepe sreće da i inače policija bude daleko efikasnija.
> Još jednom ako nisam bio jasan: naravno da je strašno to što se desilo.
> Ali ne vidim baš nikakav razlog da se to toliko uzdiže na neki nivo
> 'viši' od ostalih slučajeva ubistava. To ne sme da se dozvoli. Svako
> treba da odgovara. Neki i za mnogo teža dela koja mnogo brzo
> zaboravljena. Čijom zaslugom? Da li onih koji dižu buku oko ovoga?
I pravo različito tretira pojedine slučajeve ubistva, pa ne vidim šta
tu ima nelogično.
Buku dižu mediji (čitaj novinari) u ovom slučaju, koliko ja vidim.
Javne organizacije tipa polit. stranaka daju svoj stav i sl.
Ne znam koga si ti hteo da apostrofiraš...
A novine ko novine :(. Pre neki dan sam pročitao da je ubijeni bio
palavook i plavokos, što me blago iznenadilo, obzirom da je reč o romu.
Juče prolazim Beogradskom, vidim sliku na umrlici, ni nalik tome...
poz!
razno.93dalex,
-> #86, dr.iivan> Sada prave aukcije i razne akcije, sakupljaju milione dinara, a pre
> nedelju-dve trebalo je da sakupe samo tih par stotina hiljada za
> instalacije..
Ono što mene najviše ubija u pojam je da nisam čuo da je iko
odgovoran (vi me ispravite ako grešim). Jeste Ćirilov tražio
neke pare, koje nije dobio i to, ali valjda ima neko ko gleda
te instalacije pa je nekom i rekao da su dotrajale, ima vljda
neko da bude otpušten/obešen kad tolike pare propadnu.
poz!
razno.94giovanni,
-> #85, dr.iivanĘ? Sta? Da li je zabranjeno ili zasto je zabranjeno? :)
Šta misliš zašto je zabranjeno (ako je zabranjeno ;))?
Ę? E sad, zasto - to mi stvarno nije jasno. Pikavci, sta li.. ?
Između ostalog. :)
Ę? Btw, hvala na odgovoru :)
Molim, i drugi put. ;>
razno.95askripka,
-> #90, dejank=- Šta hoćeš time da kažeš? Ili, objasni ti kako ih vidiš.
=- Što se mene lično tiče prilično dobro poznajem i njihovu filozofiju i
=- ideje i način ponašanja većine njih jer sam svojevremeno u srednjoj
=- školi imao više njih u odeljenju. Uglavnom su to bili ljudi željni
=- avantura, tuča i sl. koji su usput pričali neke fašističke ideje,
=- i stekao sam utisak da većina njih ima želju da skrene pažnju na sebe
=- često i neverujući u ideje koji su sami pričali.
Nije bitno kako ih ja vidim, već kako jeste.
Pre svega, i najvažnije, SkinHeads-i su jedna stvar IZRAZITO lokalnog
karaktera, nastala u određeno vreme, iz određenog razloga na određenom mestu
(državi). Prosto, svako njihovo pojavljivanje van Engleske je potpuno
besmisleno. Namerno sam te citirao malo duže da bih 'uhvatio' deo 'često i
neverujući u ideje koji su sami pričali'. To je istina. Ako nisu odrasli u
datoj sredini, u datom vremenu, i ne mogu imati bilo kakve 'SkinHeads' ideje u
koje bi verovali (ovim ne ulazim u ispravnost, moralnost i sl. istih ideja).
Slična stvar je i sa Punk pokretom, no to ovde i nije tema.
Da još malo pojasnim ono 'lokalnog karaktera': postoji jedna stvar ovde,
nastala zbog naše situacije (takva je kakva je), ovog vremena u kome živimo i
još niza drugih okolnosti, a zove se dizelaš. On je takav kakav je, ali je
izvorno NAŠA stvarnost. E sad: Ako bi recimo sutra u nekom Zimbabveu neka
ekipa u trenerkama do ramena i adekvatnoj sportskoj obući pretukla, ili ne daj
Bože nešto još gore uradila nekom klincu, a narod se digao parolama tipa
'Dizelaše u zatvor', zar to ne bi bilo smešno (da nije tužno, naravno)?
(ovo ti je bio reply i na sledeću poruku, da se ne ponavljam)
=- U vreme dok sam poznavao te skinse (ne znam kako je sada),
=- biti skinhead je bilo gotovo samo pitanje muzike koju slušaš,
=- što za sobom vodi i ceo imidž kao i kod drugih vrsta muzike,
=- znači skoro kao biti panker ili metalac.
Ovde si savršeno u pravu. Prosto, jedina veza i može biti neka muzika koju oni
slušaju. A, ideje... mogu samo čuti od kojekoga da oni tamo mrze nekog, kako i
zašto nema veze, pa su stoga potpuno isti kao i svi drugi koji imaju neke
rasističke ili druge ideje... Ali to je za drugu priču.
Da ponovim (nadam se poslednji put): Nije mi ni na kraj pameti da branim ovde
bilo koga, samo pokušavam da objasnim da tipovi iz Batajnice ne mogu nikako
imati bilo kakve veze sa nečim što se zove 'SkinHeads' pokret. Jedino možda
fizička sličnost, ali zar je to dovoljno? Oni jesu ubice, tj. valjda jesu
(meni činjenice nisu poznate, tj. "postoji osnovana sumnja"), pa im u skladu
sa time treba i suditi. Ali, dodavati kojekakve priče nije potrebno, osim ako
za takvu propagandu postoji neki razlog. Na taj razlog ja sam pokušao da
skrenem pažnju i to je sve.
=- Jedna stvar je kada iza ubistva stoji pojedinac, a druga ako iza toga
=- stoji neka organizacija koja se uostalom i zalaže za slične stvari.
Opet dolazimo do onoga: kakva bre crna organizacija?
=- Siguran sam da ovi klinci nisu imali nameru da ubiju ono dete ali po
=- meni i prebijanje deteta samo zato što je Rom je skoro jednako zlo,
=- tim pre što se to svakodnevno dešava. Treba stati na put tome, treba
=- otvoriti oči ostalim klincima koji nisu svesni šta ustvari rade.
I ovde se bojim da se pravi greška. Iskreno se nadam da grešim, ali se bojim
da bi bilo koje drugo dete stradalo...
razno.96askripka,
-> #92, dalex=- Ne znam koga si ti hteo da apostrofiraš...
Pa objasnio sam u svojoj prvoj poruci na ovu temu. Neko kome je u interesu da
se zaborave neke druge (ili sve) loše stvari ovde (da ih sada ne nabrajam,
valjda svi, ili bar većina znamo koje su). Makar i privremeno, isplati se jer
se, ako ništa drugo, dobija na vremenu.
Ko se upec'o, upec'o... Ionako bi vrlo brzo i vešto razapeli na krst svakog ko
bi podsetio da to nije naš jedini problem... verovatno kao 'nacistu',
'rasistu' i sl. Vrlo klimav i opasan teren.
Pa valjda je dovoljno ono 'p.s.' o mojoj dužini (da ne kažem kratkoći) kose da
se shvati koliko potencijal leži u narodu, samo ako se pravilno upotrebi...
Upravo to je poenta.
razno.97kum.djole,
-> #90, dejank>> otvoriti oči ostalim klincima koji nisu svesni šta ustvari rade.
Možeš misliti kakve 'instrukcije' sada primaju deca od svojih roditelja,
let's say sve nešto tipa "ako vidiš ćelavog, beži" ;).. Sad zbog svega ovoga
murkani jure i tabaju sve što je ćelavo, pa može i neki deda da nastrada. ;)
Meni se čini da je cela stvar prepumpana _do koske_ i uopšte mi nije jasno
što su se toliko do'vatili tih ćelavaca, kad u ovoj sredini niko nije
sasvim normalan. Mene na ulici može na smrt da izubija grupa pijanih pankera,
organizovan skvadron dizelaša, osvetoljubivi poznanici iz vojske, bilder sa
Dorćola, Hare-krišna ekipa, a može bogami i milicija, sve bez razloga.
Ako se ne varam, pre par godina je u Zemunu ubijen dečko (maloletan) zbog -
patika. Jes' bio belac, ali - what a hell kad je mrtav, ni kriv ni dužan.
Kome ja da otvaram oči kad svaki drugi hoće da se pobije što sam ga slučajno
zgazio u trolejbusu, što sam ga navodno popreko pogledao, što nosim minđušu..
I opet, to je nešto našta moram da računam kad izađem na ulicu.
Da će neko da me vređa, gazi, psuje, pljuje, traži pare, možda i da bije.
Možda će i panduri to mirno da gledaju, il' će da okrenu glavu.
A ako se ne daj Bože pojavim na nekom mitingu, opet mogu da očekujem neki
pendrek po slabinama, ili makar da me ispolivaju vodom.
Umesto da polivaju pozorište.
Ovo što se desilo jeste tragično, ali ako ovo treba da posluži kao povod
za nekakve promene, onda samo mogu da žalim one koji se na to primaju i
iščekujem neka nova ubistva, prebijanja, tragedije.. ..i vest - koji će
predsednički kandidat, posle ovolike pompe, biti najžučniji, ko će imati
"najbolje rešenje!".. Možda onaj fašista, možda onaj što je bio na sahrani,
možda onaj faraonov kompanjon.. Malo zloupotebiš neke stvari, kako se već
snađeš, i onda prodaješ utopiju. To bar ovde ide ko alva.
razno.98dejank,
-> #95, askripka> Pre svega, i najvažnije, SkinHeads-i su jedna stvar IZRAZITO lokalnog
> karaktera, nastala u određeno vreme, iz određenog razloga na određenom
> mestu (državi). Prosto, svako njihovo pojavljivanje van Engleske je
> potpuno besmisleno. Namerno sam te citirao malo duže da bih 'uhvatio' deo
Ne bih rekao da su Skinheads-i lokalnog karaktera, tim pre što ih ima
ne samo u Evropi nego i Americi. Ne znam šta ti to znači da je njihovo
pojavljivanje van Engleske besmisleno, ali činjenica je su oni po
mnogim zemljama vrlo organizovani, i da svuda prave sr*nja. Kod nas
je sve to još slabo organizovno, ali čitao sam reportažu Francuskim
skinsima koji svakodnevno treniraju gotovo kao vojska (srećom da
ovi naši uglavnom samo loču ispred dragstora). Nisu to besmislene
stvari!
> Da ponovim (nadam se poslednji put): Nije mi ni na kraj pameti da branim
> ovde bilo koga, samo pokušavam da objasnim da tipovi iz Batajnice ne mogu
> nikako imati bilo kakve veze sa nečim što se zove 'SkinHeads' pokret.
Zbog čega to? Čak i da nemaju veze sa izvornim SkinHeads pokretom, oni
se deklarišu kao SkinHeadsi, imaju ideje koje ja ne mogu prihvatiti
i koje već sprovode, i ja imam pravo da tražim da se tako nešto spreči
ovde, pri čemu me apsolutno ne zanima da li su oni iz Batajnice ili
nekog drugog mesta.
Međutim mislim da stvari nisu tako bezazlene kako tebi možda izgleda.
Činjenica je da ih ima i po unutrašnjosti, i to mnogo više nego pre
par godina. Još su prilično izdeljeni, ali sasvim je moguće da uskoro
postanu jedinstveni. Ne bih ni da razmišljam šta sve može da se desi
ako krenu ozbiljnije da sprovode svoje ideje.
> Opet dolazimo do onoga: kakva bre crna organizacija?
Dok sam bio u srednjoj školi, tj. dok sam bio u kontaktu sa nekim
drugovima koji su se deklarisali kao skinsi postojala je i organizacija
i imali su Big Boss-a. Srećom tada ih je bilo mnogo manje. Sada, kako
čujem ima ih mnogo više (mislim na skinse) ali nemaju jedinstvenu
organizaciju, već više rascepkanih koji su često i u raznim konfliktima.
Nemoj sve olako uzimati, gledajući ove Skinse koji samo piju ispred
dragstora, izazovu tu i tamo neku tuču i naprave po koje sranje
na nekom kocertu, mada su i tu poput bande-uleću tačno na znak glavnog,
staju na isti, i tačno se zna hijerarhija. Ima i onih koji se time ne
zadovoljavaju. Jedan moj poznanik je nedavno ušao u grupu SkinHeads-a
koji su kao navijači lokalnog tima čak dobili i prostorije, gde su
često i sastančili. Srećom, ovaj se nije duže zadržao tamo.
Iako mislim da oni klinci nisu bili pripadnici neke ozbiljnije
organizacije mislim da pažnja javnosti treba da se skrene na ovaj
problem koji već dugo postoji, ali se ignoriše.
razno.99askripka,
-> #98, dejankDa te ne citiram, nema potrebe.
Ajd malo da okrenemo stvari: Ti tvrdiš da oni jesu SkinHeads-i, ja da nisu. Ja
sam naveo dovoljno argumenata zašto to oni nikada ne mogu biti. Ti nisi ni
jedan. Konkretno, objasni mi zašto su oni BAŠ SkinHeads-i, a ne recimo
najobičniji dizelaši. Tvoj jedini je 'oni se tako deklarišu'. Znaš kako, mogu
ja da se deklarišem kao recimo Member of Hells Angels Balkan Group, samo što
to nema veze s mozgom. Ili recimo da sam hipik, zato što nosim prljave i masne
farmerke, izlizanu jaknu, a prava istina je da nemam kintu ni leba da jedem, a
kamoli da kupim neku normalnu garderobu, pa onda svoj 'slučaj' pokušavam da
proturim kao fazon. E, to je opravo to. Imam vaške, šiš'o sam se, ločem,
pijem, žene bijem, ružan jesam, nisam fin, pa sam zato pravi Skin...
Na kraju, svako od njih može da ode napolje i pogleda ko su pravi Skins-i...
Ili, ne daj Bože, da se oni nekim čudom pojave ovde, ovi lokalni bi napunili
gaće...
razno.100kostja,
-> #89, askripka=> Naravno da je 'lukavo'. Tvoja reakcija to najbolje potvrđuje.
=> A što se tiče onog 'sitnice'... da si hteo da čitaš moju poruku kako
=> treba, video bi šta piše na početku poslednjeg pasusa poruke. Podsetiću
=> te: - Još jednom ako nisam bio jasan: naravno da je strašno to što se
Ajde, molim te, prosvetli me i reci šta tu ima "lukavo"?
Sa druge strane se molim te izjasni... u koju grupaciju
spadaš? Da vidimo, da li si SkinHead? Ili si možda radikal,
pa ti ne odgovara činjenica da ima fašističke osnove što bi
ljudi mogli povezati sa SRS jer se o njoj dosta govorilo sa
tog stanovišta? Ili si nešto treće?
Što se tiče one tvoje tarabe od: "Naravno da je strašno..."
mogu samo da kažem da je čista glupost. Kad već spomenusmo
fašiste... "naravno da je strašno to što su u II svetskom
pobili na jeziv način par miliona ljudi, ali...". Zaključak
izvedi sam.
=> Naravno da možeš da probaš.
=> Btw, čini mi se da je javljeno da su uhapšeni iz Batajnice.
=> SkinHeads-i u Batajnici?!? :))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Jel to znači da nisam pogodio? Za tvoju informaciju dotične
spodobe sam sretao na svim prostorima... Mladenovac, Vrčin,
Mali Mokri Lug, pa i u Batajnici.
Što se tiče definicije... jedna spodoba sa kojim sa razgovarao
mi je rekla: "Znaš mi smo SkinHeads-i, znaš novi naci..." bio
je prilično začuđen kad sam odgovorio: "Da, pa..."
=> Kako te sećanje služi, nisam ni pitao. Ali pitanje jeste koliko daleko ono
=> doseže.
Jest, kad se nema argumenata za raspravu onda padaju i ovakve
nebuloze od odgovora.
razno.101kostja,
-> #92, dalex=> normalno je da slučaj dobije veliku medijsku pažnju. Uopšte,
=> bilo koji slučaj ubistva deteta nužno -treba- da bude oštrije tretiran
=> kako od medija, tako i od policije,što ne znači da ostale zločine treba
=> dopuštati, nego da u ovakvim stvarima postoji dodatni motiv i
=> kriminalcu/siledžiji mora biti jasno da će odgovarati ako ugrožava dete,
=> a kamo lepe sreće da i inače policija bude daleko efikasnija.
Problem je ovde što su počinioci maloletni, jer u ovom
slučaju može da se sudi i smrtna kazna.
razno.102dalex,
-> #96, askripka> Pa objasnio sam u svojoj prvoj poruci na ovu temu.
Mislim da sam na tu poruku i odgovorio.
> Neko kome je u
> interesu da se zaborave neke druge (ili sve) loše stvari ovde (da ih sada
> ne nabrajam, valjda svi, ili bar većina znamo koje su).
'... A ko daje pare za protest? Sponzori! Ko su oni?
Ne zna se ko su, al zna se koji su im ciljevi!'
(c) TV dnevnik za vreme stud. prot-a '91...
Ne podsećaj me, TV mi se preznoji kad se toga seti, umalo da strada >:(...
Imamo s jedne strane činjenicu da je grupa dece ubila jedno dete
i da se tome mora dati publicitet. E sad, što napraviše šipardivan
na račun toga od političkih promocija to se ni meni ne dopada, al
šta je tu je.
Verovatno je i došlo do preterane satanizacije 'skinera', tj. postoji
mogućnost da negde strada bez razloga neki klinac koji ne liči na
Kasandru :), a ima krizu identiteta, ili, (po meni gore i verovatnije)
da se više takvih klinaca, koji se sada samo igraju, oseti delom
nečega i dobije konkretnu metu za bunt...
> Ko se upec'o, upec'o... Ionako bi vrlo brzo i vešto razapeli na krst
> svakog ko bi podsetio da to nije naš jedini problem... verovatno kao
> 'nacistu', 'rasistu' i sl. Vrlo klimav i opasan teren.
Ja zaista ne vidim neko smišljeno i organizovano skretanje pažnje na
slučaj, čini mi se da i inače slabo prolazi skretanje pažnje na probleme :(,
a da ne valja biti nacista ili rasista, ne valja...
> Pa valjda je dovoljno ono 'p.s.' o mojoj dužini (da ne kažem kratkoći)
> kose da se shvati koliko potencijal leži u narodu, samo ako se pravilno
> upotrebi... Upravo to je poenta.
Nemoj da se ljutiš, ovo nema veze ni sa tobom ni sa temom, al
ispadne mnogo dobar štos kad se iz ovog pasusa izbaci reč 'kose' ;)...
Ex, potencijal... Ja isključim svetlo i odvrnem 'Joy division', matori
uđe, kad razabere situaciju uključi svetlo, zavrne mi rukave i
traži ubode...;) Od ove scene je, doduše, prošlo dosta vremena,
a muzički ukus čoveka koji ti je stavio 'p.s.' izuzetno cenim.
Po meni, poenta je u sledećem: ljudi imaju predrasude prema
drugim ljudima, te su predrasude po nekad zasnovane na strahu
zbog, na primer, slučaja o kome je reč, a po nekad na pukoj činjenici
da se razlikuju jedni od drugih.
'Imati veliku snagu, fizičku ili duhovnu, a ne zloupotrebiti je
bar po nekad, teško je, gotovo i nemoguće.' (c) Ivo Andrić
Dakle poželeo bih nam svima da se ne ogrešimo o nekoga kad danas/sutra
naša predubeđenja budu na probi.
Jer, još od naših predaka, Adama i Eve... ;)
E, dalexe, dalexe, opet si napisao pokrivač, koncizan si, još
malo pa ko Hegel :(...
Poz!
razno.103dr.iivan,
-> #87, askripka> =- Svi su odjednom osudili taj cin, kao i pojavu fasizma u Srbiji,
> kao =- da se fasizam sada pojavio! Skinheadsi ovde postoje jos
> poodavno, ali =- se time niko nije bavio dok se ovo nije desilo.
>
> Opet jos jedna podvala ovoga sistema, nazalost potpuno uspela.
> Nekome je ocigledno trebalo malo skretanja paznje sa nekih drugih stvari
> pa se neko (verovatno nadlezne sluzbe za takve stvari) lukavo dosetio da
> od jednog ubistva napravi medijsku senzaciju. Ocigledno uspesno, u sta
> ne treba sumnjati kada su takve sluzbe u pitanju.
Ne razumem sta hoces da kazes. Hoces da kazes da je iscenirano ubistvo
onog decaka!?
Ako samo mislis na kojekakva saopstenja politickih stranaka, borba i
zelja istih i jeste u tome da cekaju da im nalegne povoljan sticaj
okolnosti, pa da pocnu da deluju i ja apsolutno ne fermam ta njihova
saopstenja, jer od njih nisam ni ocekivao da se brinu o Skinsima.
Jedini razlog iz koga me ta saopstenja i reagovanja zanimaju jeste da
vidim da li je neko uspeo da se zajebe, pa u svom reagovanju napravi
neku kontradiktornost u odnosu na neki svoj raniji stav, pa to
eventualno iskoristim da osvestim neciju zaludjenu glavu za odredjenom
politickom strankom, ako je to uopste moguce.
Inace, govorio sam o reagovanjima raznih drustava za zastitu ljudskih
prava, policije i slicnih institucija, koje bi TREBALO DA SE BAVE TIME.
> Ocigledna je namera da se proturi nesto zdravo za gotovo najsirim
> slojevima stanovnistva koji naravno nemaju pojma o cemu se radi. Pa
> koliko ljudi uopste zna ko su i sta su SkinHeads-i? Znas li ti? Lako je
Pa naravno da im je to namera i ne vidim nista cudno u tome. Apsolutno
se iskljucis kada pocnu da citaju te osude i - nisi ovca.
Inace, ja vrlo dobro znam ko su Skinsi. Da ne znam, ne bih ni pisao..
> Poenta je: zasto tolika buka? SVA ubistva su podjednako losa ili grozna
> stvar. Ne vidim zasto je ovo gore od onoga kad neko ubije citavu
> porodicu zbog par stotina maraka. Ali, o onima se ne pise vise od obicne
> vesti, ne organizuju se neke kolone protesta... Zasto?
Nije tacno. To nije ista stvar.
Da ne trosim reci, zar ti nije dovoljna cinjenica da se za ubistvo iz
ideoloskih razloga odgovara vise nego za ubistvo iz materijalnih
razloga? Pa zar mislis da su ljudi koji su donosili takav zakon sisali
vesla, pa ne znaju "da je to isto"?
Konacno, npr. ako nemam sta da jedem i suocim sa sa time da cu recimo
da umrem od gladi, ja cu se mozda i odluciti da povredim (sigurno je
da ovi klinci nisu hteli da ubiju onog decka) nekoga, ali da ga
napadnem ovako.. iz ideoloskih razloga...
Ako bi ljudi krenuli tako da se ubijaju..
> Ali ne vidim bas nikakav razlog da se to toliko uzdize na neki nivo
> 'visi' od ostalih slucajeva ubistava. To ne sme da se dozvoli. Svako
Da li sada vidis neki razlog?