FORUM.19

31 Mar 1999 - 24 Dec 1999

Messages - svet

svet.93 alien,
GLOBAL INTELLIGENCE UPDATE The World After Kosovo May 3, 1999 SUMMARY Whether in a week or a month, the Kosovo crisis is drawing to a close. The basic outlines of the settlement are already visible. The question now is what the world will look like afterwards. We expect a much more sober, cautious, and even mildly isolationist U.S., facing the fact that tremendous power is not the same as omnipotence. We see a dramatic decline in European confidence in American leadership. Germany was particularly concerned about Russia's reactions and is likely to concentrate on maintaining its relations with Moscow independent of NATO's decisions. The big winner was Russia, a country that got money, respect, and the position of honest broker. The most extraordinary outcome of Bill Clinton's Kosovo adventure was that it turned Boris Yeltsin into a statesman, with his representative, Chernomyrdin, taken more seriously in Bonn and Rome than Clinton's Strobe Talbott. That was no small feat for the Clinton foreign policy team. ANALYSIS The Kosovo conflict is drawing to a close. Whether a settlement will take a day or a month, the key elements are now clear. There will be a cease-fire prior to the implementation of any agreement. The Serbs will continue to control Kosovo, and Serbian police will retain some sort of presence. A lightly armed international peacekeeping force will be permitted into Kosovo. Some NATO members will send forces, several non-NATO members, including Russia, will also send forces. The command structure of the force will remain deliberately vague. It will be agreed that Albanians will be able to return to their homes in Kosovo in stages. Many will refuse to go, hoping to be resettled elsewhere. Others will return. Yet others will try to return but will find it impossible. An ineffective peacekeeping force will remain in place for a very long time, with an unclear mission. But the bombing will end; the abuse of Albanians will end. The world will go on. It is time to think about what that world will look like after Kosovo. Let's begin by considering carefully what has happened in Kosovo. The United States' government had received reports that it found credible of a terrible genocide underway in Kosovo and decided that it had to intervene to stop it. The U.S. began by attempting to dictate terms to the Belgrade government, drafting a document now called the Rambouillet Accords. It gathered around itself its NATO allies, and demanded that all sides agreed to those Accords. There was substantial hesitancy on all sides, but in the end, the Albanians agreed. The Serbs did not. Leading NATO, the United States announced that unless the Serbs agreed to the Accords, precisely as stated with no further negotiation, NATO would begin a bombing campaign against the Serbs. The United States said this with full confidence that Belgrade would capitulate. Belgrade did not. Now, finding that NATO refuses to launch a ground war against Serbia, and finding that it lacks sufficient air power to crush Serb resistance, the United States will eventually be forced to accept a compromise and call it victory. This will end an era that began with the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in August 1990. The United States, under President Bush, determined that the Iraqi invasion was unacceptable. His precise reasoning was not as clear as one might think. Part of the reasoning was strategic. Part of it was his repugnance at one nation seizing another. But the core of the intervention was that in a global, strategic sense, it was risk free. Certainly, there was a risk of casualties. However, there were two assumptions on which the intervention rested. The first was that if the United States chose to intervene, it could create, at will, an international coalition to carry out the invasion. The second assumption was that this coalition could in fact liberate Kuwait. In other words, the issue that framed Bush's decision was whether such an intervention was desirable and not whether such an intervention was possible. The intervention in Iraq was the first of a series of interventions that included Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, and now Kosovo. Not all of these ended well. Somalia was, by any measure, a failure. The Haitian invasion displaced the former government but no one would argue that Haiti has been lifted out of its misery. Bosnia was intended to be a short-term intervention but has become a permanent presence. But none of these interventions have forced the United States to face the core question: what are the limits of American power? The Clinton administration faced the intervention in Kosovo as a question of whether the United States would intervene and whether we would permit Serbia to retain sovereignty over Kosovo. It failed to ask the more important question of whether the United States and its allies had the military power in place to achieve its political ends, and whether the amount of military power required should be spent in a place like Kosovo. The United States simply assumed, without the meticulous analysis required, that it had the needed power. It did not. Thus, the decade begun in Kuwait ends in the skies over Serbia. No American government will, in the near future at least, simply assume that it has the military power needed to impose its will. This is, obviously, a healthy lesson to learn. There is a vast difference between being the greatest military power in the world and omnipotence. The United States rules the seas and can, wherever it chooses, rule the skies. This is not the same as being able to compel other nations to capitulate on matters of fundamental national importance. It must always be remembered that demographics never favor intervention in Eurasia. American ground forces are always outnumbered whenever they set foot in Eurasia. Sometimes air and naval superiority along with superior technology and training can compensate for this demographic imbalance. Sometimes it cannot. Sometimes it can compensate only after a build-up taking many months, as in Desert Storm. The casual assumption that the general superiority of U.S. military power inevitably translates into quick victory in any specific circumstance is obviously wrong and the point has been finally driven home. We would be very surprised if the Clinton Administration attempted another humanitarian intervention after Kosovo. Indeed, one of the lessons learned by all future administrations is that interventions should never be casually undertaken until, and unless, the military is given time to plan and implement the intervention, as Bush permitted in Desert Storm. Moreover, since the implementation of an intervention in Eurasia is always costly and time-consuming, what appeared to be a good idea at first glance, might well turn out to be a very bad idea in the long run. Merely wanting to do something does not mean that something can be done. Moral obligations are easy to assume. They are sometimes impossible to carry out. This is a hard lesson to learn. Put differently, talk is cheap. War is hard. We expect two parallel processes to emerge after Kosovo. We will see a much more passive, indeed, isolationist United States. The hair-trigger assumption of responsibility for Eurasian problems will be replaced by a much more cautious calculation not only of moral considerations, but also of costs and the national interest. The second process, paradoxically, will be a substantial increase in American defense spending. The Kosovo exercise has clearly demonstrated that the draw-down in U.S. military forces has limited American military effectiveness. Military options that were available to President Bush are simply not available, in anywhere near as lavish a quantity, to President Clinton. There is no question of any further cuts in defense spending. The only issue now is how much defense spending will be increased? The United States will be withdrawing from its aggressive leadership position not solely because it wishes to do so. It will be withdrawing because it has seriously lost the trust of many of its NATO allies. Except for the UK, the rest of NATO has been simply appalled by the U.S. management of the entire affair. The end game is being crafted by Germany, Italy, and Russia because the United States simply locked itself into a position from which it could neither retreat nor go forward. It very quickly became apparent that the air war was not going to force a Serbian capitulation. Rather than commence compensating maneuvers, the United States insisted on rigidity and bellicosity, without developing a crushing military strategy. German policy is particularly likely to shift after Kosovo. Germany has a fundamental interest in maintaining good relations with the Russians. From a geopolitical and a financial sense, a hostile Russia is the last thing that Germany needs. The near-confrontation between NATO and Russia over Kosovo was a sobering experience for the Germans. For a few days, they looked into the abyss and the abyss stared back at them. Members of the Red-Green coalition in Bonn are inherently suspicious of both the United States and military adventures. They spent the last month trying to demonstrate that they could be good citizens of NATO, putting aside their ingrained, 1960s sensibilities. They emerged with a clear sense that they were right to mistrust American leadership and to worry about military adventures. One of the consequences of Kosovo is that the Europeans in general, and the Germans and Italians in particular, are going to be extremely cautious in agreeing to future creative uses of NATO. The big winner in all of this is, of course, Russia. It not only got $4.5 billion but it also got everyone's attention, which it didn't have since the good old days of summits with Ronald Reagan. It has not only reminded Europe of its very real military power, thereby setting up the process for extracting money from the West, but it maneuvered itself into the position of being an honest broker, trusted by both Germany/Italy and the Serbs. Indeed, the Russians came out of the crisis looking like sober statesmen, working toward peace and stability. Now, when Boris Yeltsin can be made to look like a sober statesman and facilitator, something has gone dramatically wrong in American foreign policy. We believe that the Kosovo conflict will become a definitive event in European history. The failure in Kosovo will cause the United States to recoil from casual interventions. More important, U.S. clumsiness in Kosovo will cause the Europeans to shy away from American leadership, particularly concerning European matters. The likelihood of an American administration herding NATO into another military adventure in Europe is minimal. This is a crucial change. There has been a tremendous asymmetry between Europe as a politico-military entity and Europe as an economic entity. NATO has been the primary politico-military expression of Europe, the EU the primary economic entity. This has made it extremely difficult for Europe to express a coherent viewpoint. The EU and NATO were simply not congruent. The Europeans do have a vehicle for politico-military thinking, the Western European Union, which excludes the United States and is, therefore, far more congruent with the EU. But even that doesn't get to the heart of the problem. Germany's interests are specifically German. France's interests are French. The UK's interests are the UK's and are quite different from the other two. We expect two results from Kosovo. First, a strengthening of purely European institutions at the expense of NATO. Second, a greater caution by individual nations toward multinational commitments, including purely European ones. Kosovo will undoubtedly bring to a close what we might call the era of casual intervention for the United States. There is nothing like failure to increase sobriety. We suspect that this is the last major foreign policy adventure for the Clinton Administration and would not be surprised to see Albright, Berger and Holbrooke accepting private sector positions in the near future. Most importantly, Kosovo closes what we regard as the interregnum between eras. The Cold War was not replaced by a unipolar world. That was a temporary anomaly. The new era of one superpower and several great powers, loosely united to limit U.S. power, is now beginning. We'll tentatively christen this the New World Disorder while we wait for the new era to name itself. (c) 1998 Stratfor, Inc. All rights reserved.
svet.94 praktica,
Imam jedan predlog koji se tice, nadam se, svih SezamNetovca. Americki i uopste narod celog sveta, ne razume sta se desava u Jugoslaviji, mediji ih lazu, knjige ne citaju, vecina ne zna i nikad nije bila u Jugoslaviji i Srbiji. Vecina Srba, posebno mladji deo, zna sta se desava i zeleo bi ostalom svetu i da kaze nesto. Ovako, ne bi bilo lose kada bi napisali sto vise uporednih i ironicnih, kratkih (tj. razumljivih celome svetu), recenica koji bi slali sirom Interneta (videcemo) i time pokazali svetu istinu, probuditi narod i pokazati da nismo obicni divljaci, recenice bi dodavali svi na Sezamu : AMerika je pokazala u napadu na Srpske vojne da je veoma precizna - ipak usput je i sredila xxx civilnih zgrada i xxxx civila.. Amerika svom narodu govori o centru Beograda i njegovim stanovnicima - na svim vaznijim Americki TV stanicama su predgradja Beograda bez ijedne duse Americki narod je ubedjen da su Srbi napali Siptare - Srbi ne koriste cesto oruzje, ne desavaju se pravni i zakonski prestupi cesto, siptarima kao da je oruzje palo sa neba, siptari napadaju Srbe posebno na njihovoj teritoriji a Srpska policija i vojska ginu uzalud. Svi narodi koji su posecivali Jugoslaviju za vreme i pre rata nas podrzavaju i brane - Amerika ...... necu previse da pisem ostalo ostavljam onome ko hoce nesto jos da doda :)
svet.95 praktica,
Pa ...... pisite ljudi nesto, bilo sta, nemojte samo da prepricavate, uporedjujte, komentarisite, smisljajte viceve .... Ajde ... kratko i jasno. ...... amerika .... nezna ni gde je Jugoslavija pa Bil Klinton mora da im pokazuje. i tako te gluposti...
svet.96 praktica,
Bolje da ovo nisam ni predlozio :(
svet.97 wlaad, -> #93, alien
lepo shto si i ti poslao ovo. jel to u sluchaju da neko ima ignore na moje poruke? ;)
svet.98 praktica,
Pa ovo nije humano, mislim, stvarno nije u redi, prvo zbog mene pa i zbog svih nas na ovome svetu.
svet.1 the.edge,
Ono djubre fasisticko - Shreder, nece da obustavi NATO napade, bez obzira sto Sloba hoce da pregovara. Pa jasno, nacistima je ovo kao shlag na tortu... ;< Mislim da ruska reakcija na ovo nece izostati. AcCeSS DeNiED
svet.2 kiklop,
Evo jedne zanimljive astrološke analize trenutne situacije u našoj zemlji. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------- Greetings! I have worked out a timetable of events for the Serbia-Kosovo crisis, using the science of heliocentric astrology. I believe that this information will prove vital for the restoration of peace. ---------------------------------- Serbia-Kosovo Timetable ---------------------------------- written March 28, 1999 by Robert Tkoch, Astrologer since 1970 robert@starcenter.com For the full text of this article, see: http://www.starcenter.com/serbia.htm Let us now turn to the actual schedule of events, both past and future. All times are given in UT. The dates and times given are the center of the influence, and that influence will generally extend for a few days before and after the central moment. Mar. 22, 1:08 UT: Serbia receives emotional communications from the enemy group. Serbia's position is that of a sitting duck. This vulnerable stance goes on until Mar. 30. Mar. 22, 10:30 UT: The lunar month begins, a month of war. Mar. 22, 20:26 UT: Serbia receives vicious threats from the group. These threats are evil and destructive, and will come true. Mar. 23, 6:00 UT: The enemy group --- NATO --- achieves maximum diabolical power, like a band of evil witches who got hold of nuclear weapons. They only held this power for a day or two. If only they had waited for a few days, this war would never have happened. Their power derived essentially from their ability to mold public opinion with maudlin and morbid feelings. Mar. 25, 13:10 UT: The beginning of a possible six-month insanity of rageful chaos. Worldwide feelings of war, outrage, anger, violence, murder. This outburst is entirely evil, and must be controlled. If it is controlled, its time can be reduced to far less than six months. But this means controlling all of the lawlessness, while respecting all of the righteous indignation of the people. A difficult task, but it can be done. (The preceding aspects are all extremely powerful and extremely evil, unusually so. They will not occur again. From this point on, everything will try to evolve toward decency and righteousness. Yet the earlier vehemence must be voluntarily renounced for the gentle future to appear). Mar. 28, 19:17 UT: Sober communications; diplomatic resolve; difficult decisions. Go slowly, think deeply, be wise. Mar. 30, 7:27 UT: Serbia's first real chance to push forward. The faint beginning of new directions. Yet not too fast. Better a slow and conscientious steady pace. Mar. 30, 21:00 UT: Some tendency to autocratic errors. This aspect is minor, yet caution is necessary. Temper authority with long-term consideration. April 2, 16:58 UT: Male violence, strength, great power, warlikeness. The chance for manly victory. Yet the contest is uneven, ruthless. A time calling for courage, yet moderated with nobility. Like Homer's Iliad. April 4, 1:00 UT: Second phase of Serbia's push forward. Coming out of hiding, baring the teeth. Becoming strong. Going ahead, yet still holding back somewhat. April 4, 3:30 UT: Uncertain: some happiness and joy, a bit of peace and hope, but perhaps not exactly what is needed. Hopeful negotiations. Yet do not be fooled by lying sycophants. NATO may be momentarily very positive, but that will soon change. April 6, 16:08 UT: Conflicting intelligence, arguments. Differences between plans and public opinion. Let others do the bickering. April 6, 17:03 UT: Some completion occurs. NATO has extended its first phase fully. The attacks begun around Mar. 24 have come to their maximum result, and have nowhere else to go. It is best to allow aggressors to fall back. Give them an escape route. April 7, 10:27 UT: Third phase of Serbia's push forward. Some advance, rewards of courage. Still, caution is necessary. April 8, 14:29 UT: Fourth phase of Serbia's push forward. Serbia is becoming fully extended, fully defined. Manhood shows itself for everyone to see. From here on, the way should be clear. April 15, 2:17 UT: Evil words, false communications, hasty agreements; be careful, avoid all these. Wait a day or two. April 20, 16:25 UT: A new lunar month. A milder time begins. Change accordingly. The first month, the one beginning on Mar. 22, is officially over. April 30, 12:41 UT: NATO is unhappy, severe, stopped, blocked, and limited. NATO may bluff about long-term occupation, but NATO is disappointed, possibly ready to end it. Serious talks about financial considerations. ------------------------------------------------------------------- At a later date, I will post further extensions to this timeline. In addition, I will add descriptions of the heliocentric charts of conception for Mr. Milosevic and Mr. Clinton. But for now, using these predictions, it is important to remember that the really powerful aspects have already occurred around March 22-25, and that every subsequent aspect is minor. The real task is to forget (and apologize for, and redress, and forgive) all that began during those days. It is too late for a simple, happy ending to this story. The USA and NATO have greatly multiplied the original trouble, and the consequences are terrible. Nevertheless, if the mistake is acknowledged, the least damage can be done. --------------------------------------------------------------- I have been looking at astrological charts since 1970. Every day, I study many charts. In all of my experience as an astrologer, I have never seen such totally evil aspects as those of March 22-25, 1999. Remember, I do not use conventional astrology. The popular astrology will tell you very little about that time. But in the esoteric chart, the ugliness of those moments is monstrous. When minor evil aspects occur, it is normally the lower moral classes of humanity which respond to them. During ordinary bad aspects, there will be more crimes than usual, more men taking a swing at someone, more wives becoming hysterical and yelling about nothing. But when the major nations of the world take their most major action at the suddenly most evil time? This produces a chill, as I see what is coming. These charts are exactly like Hitler going berserk and bombing Belgrade into oblivion, exactly like Xerxes going insane over Greece's refusal to capitulate and launching an armada, exactly like Artaxerxes' mother condemning her enemy to a slow death devoured by worms. There is an evil on this earth, and the USA --- and NATO --- chose to express it. No one will ever fully trust them again. Yet there is still hope. The USA, in spite of its present error, has a few good qualities to recommend it --- if only it will disengage from its blunder, if only it will apologize and make amends, if only it will turn around and utterly change, if only it will take its own ideals seriously. So far, the USA is going the route of all overly-large empires --- early friendliness rewarded by power, power growing beyond all balance, unbalanced strength turning into bullying, the bullying provoking fear in the subject peoples, and finally the fall from power, thrown down by those same people rising up against its arrogance --- yet it needn't go this route. If only the USA --- and the countries of NATO --- would listen to Socrates, who said: "Until philosophers are kings, or the kings and princes of this world have the spirit and power of philosophy, and political greatness and wisdom meet in one, and those commoner natures who pursue either to the exclusion of the other are compelled to stand aside, cities will never have rest from their evils, --nor the human race, as I believe, --and then only will this our State have a possibility of life and behold the light of day." Then, indeed, might all of us enjoy the light of every day. Sincerely, Robert Tkoch, Astrologer since 1970 robert@starcenter.com http://www.starcenter.com/serbia.htm Copyright StarCenter 1999. All rights reserved. You may freely copy, distribute, and republish this document.
svet.3 vlada., -> #1, the.edge
Ne lupetaj leba ti... Sta ti kao prvo uopste znas o Nacional-socijalizmu, bre vise su mi se smucile budaletine koje Klintona i ostale nazivaju nacistima. Kako mogu kretencine da na transparent stave dva JEVREJSKA imena i kukasti krst (Medlin Olbrajt , Ricard Holbruk) jedno od dvoje vodecih cionista u svetu.Inace da si malo upuceniji znao bi da se Adolf Hitler borio protiv satanista novog sveskog poretka (jevrejske tiranije, cionizma) i da je zavrsio ono sto je zapoceo svega ovoga ne bi ni bilo.Ljudi kako ne vidite da jebeni cionisti upravljaju Amerikom a preko natoa pokusavaju da zavladaju celim svetom sto je i krajnji cifutski cilj. Vi jebenu jevrejsku okupaciju uporedjujete sa necim tako plemenitim kao sto je nacional-socijalizam , to je van svake pameti, i jos nesto...NS ce ponovo pobediti u Evropi, je jedino on moze da zaustavi pomahnitale cioniste i da stane u kraj njihovim podmuklim namerama samo sto ce ovoga puta i nas narod biti na njegovoj strani. Zivela 88!! Pobeda!
svet.4 mango, -> #3, vlada.
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? JJAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
svet.5 goth, -> #3, vlada.
Mislim da po mnogome preterujes. U vezi sa Jevrejima se koliko-toliko mogu sloziti sa tobom - sasvim je verovatno da njihov lobi ima silan utacaj u svetu, i, kada se puno toga ne bi krilo, bilo bi nam jasno koliki je njihov udeo u raznim desavanjima i podmuklostima, pogotovo kada je ekonomija u pitanju. Jebeni neuspeli slikar iz Birkenaua je bio ideoloski dobro potkrepljen, sto mu je obezbedilo simpatiju Nemackog naroda. On je krenuo na sve pred sobom, a cionizam je tada bilo obicno govno koje nije pretilo nikom. Prelistaj malo ist orijske knjige koje obuhvataju period od 1933-1945., raspitaj se za Geringovsko odusevljenje faustovskim idealom, i sl., pre nego sto tako nabusito kreces da propagiras ideje jednog izroda kao sto je bio Adolf Hitler, inteligentni zanesenjak.
svet.6 the.edge, -> #3, vlada.
T?>> Sta ti kao prvo uopste znas o Nacional-socijalizmu,bre vise su mi se T?>> smucile budaletine koje Klintona i ostale nazivaju nacistima. Nazivaju ih nacistima iz prostog i jednostavnog razloga; oni cine isto sto je i Hitler cinio, cak mnogo gore. Kog su oni porekla - to nije bitno. Govori se o njihovom cilju. T?>> znao bi da se Adolf Hitler borio protiv satanista novog sveskog T?>> poretka (jevrejske tiranije,cionizma)i da je zavrsio ono sto je T?>> zapoceo svega ovoga ne bi ni bilo. Ne lupetaj. Ne bi ni nas bilo. Sigurno je da bi se izvukli sa mnogo manje zrtava da se nismo odmah trtili, ali sta je bilo - bilo je. Mozda mi nismo bili na pocetku u njegovoj listi, ali to bi svakako postali ili bi nas iskoristio na maximalno moguci nacin. I ono sto je sad potrebno je da se ne raspravljamo oko ovako _idiotskih_ stvari. NATO napada, ljudi ginu, materijalna steta velika, a ti se proseravas sta je Adolf trebao da radi, i sa kojim pravom mi to njih nazivamo fasistima. O boga mu! AcCeSS DeNiED
svet.7 ognjenc,
Ma ljudi nema sanse da propadnemo , vidite ko je uz nas !!! ;))))) srbi.jpg
svet.8 praktica, -> #2, kiklop
I ja imam tumacenje : Kao prvo pocelo je prolece - i prvi znak zodijaka Ovan sto znaci i trenutak istine posebno kad se uzme u obzir i Jupiter (isto na pocetku znaka Ovna), i trebalo bi dodati da Planetoid 1996TO66 (nedavno otkriven, 3 puta manji od Plutona i okrene se oko sunca za 750 godina) koji je usao u orbitu blizu od Plutona.
svet.9 praktica,
isto ima ogroman uticaj :)
svet.10 giftmaster,
Auuu bre ljudi....zasto su se svi primili...pa poceli da uporedjuju Naciste i NATO. Politicki...nacisti se ni ne bi mesali u ove gluposti...vojno...skrsili bi bilo koju drzavu (izuzev ludih Rusa) za 15 dana... NATO i VERMAHT se ne mogu porediti. Ovo je sasvim druga prica...drugo vreme...drugi rat... Ovo je 1999....i ako se komplet politicari i nasi i njihovi ne okrenu za 180 stepeni....to ce biti godina koju ce mnogi od nas upamtiti...a takodje mnogi od nas nece docekati 2000. Ako krene totalno sranje...nase bulje su na liniji vatre... i ako zaglavimo na nekom frontu...necemo kenjati ko sto se sada PATRIOTISEMO...ubijacemo da...ali da spasimo sopstvene zivote... i svako zivot koji ugasimo...bice jos jedan dan zivota za nas... Dokle?
svet.11 rkramer, -> #10, giftmaster
C:\> Auuu bre ljudi....zasto su se svi primili...pa poceli da C:\> uporedjuju Naciste i NATO. Politicki...nacisti se ni ne bi C:\> mesali u ove gluposti...vojno...skrsili bi bilo koju drzavu C:\> (izuzev ludih Rusa) za 15 dana... Zato sto ovaj NATO vremena sadasnjeg deluje da kanda ima slicne ciljeve nacistima vremena proslog...
svet.12 the.edge,
Evo LAZI prodanih americkih REUTERS novinara. Pazite samo ovaj deo: "In Belgrade, more and more people pinned to their clothes mock targets of paper, unimpressed by NATO's insistence that the bombing is aimed only at the Yugoslav military, not civilians." Molim vas ljudi, posle ovoga - odmah svi na: editor.reuters@reuters.com Ovo se vise ne moze tolerisati. Neka svi napisu bilo_kakav mail (samo bez ne obrazlozenog vredjanja, molim!) - bar neka vide da ne zatvaramo oci pred ovakvim sranjima! AcCeSS DeNiED
svet.13 vantic, -> #4, mango
-> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? -> ??????? -> JJAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -> !!!!!!! duplo JAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!
svet.15 goxi,
Evo malo o tri uhvacena "neprijatelja" ! ........................................ Serb television identified the men as James Stone, Andrew Ramirez and Steven Gonzales. The names could also be seen on their camouflage uniforms. ........................................ A evo i zajednicke slike :) nato.jpg
svet.16 haevorn, -> #3, vlada.
>da jebeni cionisti upravljaju Amerikom a nije li i Avram Izrael slicnog porekla kako i Holbruk...?
svet.17 gligo, -> #10, giftmaster
> Auuu bre ljudi....zasto su se svi primili...pa poceli da > uporedjuju Naciste i NATO. Politicki...nacisti se ni ne bi > mesali u ove gluposti...vojno...skrsili bi bilo koju drzavu > (izuzev ludih Rusa) za 15 dana... > NATO i VERMAHT se ne mogu porediti. Iz jednostavnog razloga. Vermaht je napadao iz svih raspolozivih sredstava dok NATO napada sa minimumom minimuma. Normalno, okolnosti su drugacije, ali imamo srecu da Amerika ne primenjuje Powell-ovu doktrinu, nazvanu po americkom generalu Collinu Powellu, koji je pred proslogodisnje izbore za americkog predsednika odustao u poslednjem trenutku, i mozda odustao od sigurnog mesta u predsednickoj fotelji. Podatak da je ovaj general, crnac, samo po sebi daje mnoge odgovore.... E, sad, ta Powell-ova doktrina zasniva se na dve stavke koje su odbacene od strane americkih strucnjaka okupljenih oko Klintona a konsultovanih pred NATO napade na Jugoslaviju. Broj 1. - Ako Amerika ulazi u bilo koji vojni sukob na svetu, onda treba da udari sa maksimumom svojih snaga bez obzira na velicinu zemlje sa kojom se sukobljava i njen vojni potencijal. Broj 2. - Pre nego sto Amerika udje u bilo kakav vojni sukob u bilo kom delu sveta, uvek treba unapred da zna kako da iz njega i izadje. Klintonovi savetnici su odlucili da ne postuju nijednu od ovih stavki, da li na nasu srecu, videce se....
svet.18 goth, -> #15, goxi
> Serb television identified the men as James Stone, Andrew > Ramirez and Steven Gonzales. The names could also be seen on > their camouflage uniforms. i)]┌. Nasi ih sigur > 2. to shto kazu da su oborili 30 ...to je billy boy samo sanjao > a kad se probudio zvao rubina da mu kaze sta je sanjao ;) Ne, ne...kada se Billy probudio, potapsao je Rubina, koji je lezao pored njega po temenu.
svet.19 morkin,
CONF REPLY FORUM.18:svet.264 > Nijedna raketa ni avion nije napao srbiju sa teritorije makedonije! Nije tačno. Ne napadaju samo iz pravca Rumunije.
svet.20 morkin,
Zašto ne lete više u dnevnim misijama?
svet.21 morkin,
CONF REPLY FORUM.18:svet.273 /r > >> Nato je odluchio da danas shalje samo rakete ali da neshalje > >> avione, razlog je loshe vreme :)) > > vetar ;) Zafrkavajte se, ali je to tačno. Ako se usude da gađaju MUP koji se nalazi pored porodilišta, onda će biti SIGURNI da bomba neće pogoditi porodilište.
svet.22 qpele, -> #20, morkin
> Zasto ne lete vise u dnevnim misijama? Cenim da je marketing razlog. Akcije pocinju tako da Ameri imaju sveze vesti ili direktan prenos akcije kada se umorni oko 4-5 vrate sa posla.
svet.23 kum.djole,
"Sudite im pošteno, pa da ih streljamo" :)))
svet.24 madamov, -> #12, the.edge
> Evo LAZI prodanih americkih REUTERS novinara. Pazite samo ovaj deo: > > "In Belgrade, more and more people pinned to their clothes mock targets of > paper, unimpressed by NATO's insistence that the bombing is aimed only at > the Yugoslav military, not civilians." Tebi engleski slabo ide, zar ne? Da ti prevedem, ova rečenica govori o tome da sve više Beograđana stavlja na svoju odeću papirne mete zato što nisu impresionirani insistiranjem NATO-a da su bombardovanja usmerena prema jugoslovenskoj vojsci, a ne civilima.
svet.25 redneck, -> #19, morkin
>> Nije tacno. Ne napadaju samo iz pravca Rumunije. Nije tacno. Ja zivim u selu na par kilometara od rumunske granice. Onog dana kad je napad otpoceo, cuo sam jako brujanje avionskih motora iznad moje glave. Posle nekog vremena, TV je javio da je Beograd bombradovan. Brujanje se culo dosta dugo, bilo je jezivo! Nakon par dana, ne secam se tacno, supruga mi je rekla da cuje neko hujanje. Istrcao sam napolje i ugledao neki projektil koji je dolazio iz pravca rumunije. Isao je jako nisko, skoro da ga prackom pogodis. Bio je sumrak i mesecina, pa se lepo sve videlo. Leteo je malom brzinom i iza sebe je ostavljao dugacak trag, kao mlazni avion, ali avion 100% nije bio. Nije se culo nikakvo brujanje, samo tiho hucanje. Ne znam sta je to bilo, mozda tomahawk ili nesto slicno. Pravac kretanja je bio (iz mog ugla gledanja) nekih 15 stepeni desno od pravca za Beograd. Dugo sam ga pratio pogledom (usput ga nemocno mrzeci iz sve snage, jer drugo nisam mogao), a onda je, pri kraju horizonta, naglo skrenuo u levo (prema Bgd-u). Tada mi je nestao iz vida. Isto to je videla i moja komsinica sa balkona. Sutradan sam u firmi cuo od kolege iz susednog sela da je video avion kada je ispalio taj projektil. Bio je iznad rumunije. Vreme i mesto dogadjaja su se poklapali. Inace, tokom ove agresije, gotovo svake noci cuju se avioni, u razna doba (u sumrak, oko 22-23 casa, oko 02-03 casa itd.). Inace se zna da je ona pizda Konstantinesku, da bi se amerima uvukao u bulju, podrzao napade nato-a na nas. A ja sam, budala, kad je bila ona frka sa Causeskuom, dao krv za komsije rumune, a moj komsija je, rizikujuci zivot, isao kamionom usred pucnjave u temisvar i nosio im hranu i lekove. Sada ih taj komsija psuje ali dzabe. Eto, braco Sezamovci, da znate da nas i iz susedne rumunije tuku. Toliko s' moje strane. Pozdrav braco i izdrzite, M.
svet.26 aandric,
NAJLEPSA VEST OD KAKO JE POCELO BOMBARDOVANJE: LUIZIJANU POKOSIO SMRTONOSNI TORNADO!!!!! PUNO MRTVIH(ne dovoljno),PUUUNO POVREDJENIH I PUUUUUUUNO SRUSENIH AMERICKIH JEBENIH KUCICA:)))))) Stvarno sam odvratan sto se radujem tudjoj nesreci ali oni su me do toga doveli.
svet.27 kiklop, -> #26, aandric
> NAJLEPSA VEST OD KAKO JE POCELO BOMBARDOVANJE: > > LUIZIJANU POKOSIO SMRTONOSNI TORNADO!!!!! > PUNO MRTVIH(ne dovoljno),PUUUNO POVREDJENIH I > PUUUUUUUNO SRUSENIH AMERICKIH JEBENIH KUCICA:)))))) > > Stvarno sam odvratan sto se radujem tudjoj nesreci > ali oni su me do toga doveli. Pa dobro si prokomentarisao svoju reakciju. Mi svakako ni na koji način nećemo profitirati od te njihove nesreće. Uostalom pogrešno je poistovećivati celu naciju (? hm , postoji li američka nacija?) sa politikom vlasti. Ovo je samo otelotvorenje one čuvene "Da komšiji crkne krava". Običan građanin SAD-a (zločinačke & fašističke...) ne zna ni ko mu je predsednik, ili generalni sekretar( dobro, de za Bilija svi znaju jer nije bio dovoljno diskretan u vanbračnim aferama) i sl. a kamoli da zna da pokaže na karti gde je Srbija ili gde su, ne daj Bože, Buđanovci. Sinoć (ili bolje reći rano jutros) sam uhvatio neki film na TV Politika (američki) u kome se na jedan vrlo eksplicitan način analizira problem televizije kao medija i njenog uticaja na populaciju. Na najbrutalniji način su prikazane sve prljavštine koje se vrše u propagandne svrhe, počevši od reklama za igračke... Suština svega kako je izjavio jedan od likova je NOVAC, i ništa drugo. Sve ostalo su priče za malu decu i narodne mase. Od ovoga rata profitiraće naftne kompanije, američka vojska i vojna industrija, američka ekonomija a evo i kako: 1.) Naftne kompanije prodaju velike količine goriva NATO-u zbog jasnih razloga što dovodi do povećane potražnje i povećava priliv novca. 2.) Američka vojska na ovaj način dobija priliku da istestira svoje nove i stare sisteme naoružanja u realnoj ratnoj situaciji i da se oslobodi zastarelih naoružanja (raketa,bombi i sl.) koje bi morali da unište ili repariraju što je mnogo skuplje nego da ih jednostavno bace na Srbiju. 3.)Američka vojna industrija na ovaj način pravi svojim proizvodima reklamu, tako da se više zemalja odluči na kupovinu upravo njihove tehnologije. Ovde reklama zavisi direktno od uspešnosti same tehnologije, što znači da može biti i negativna (F-117A Stealth). 4.)Američka ekonomija će profitirati posredno kroz vojnu i naftnu industriju ali tu treba navesti i momenat destabilizacije EURO valute, koja od početka agresije na SRJ pokazuje blagi pad. EURO je jedini pravi konkurent dolaru i to se nikako ne dopada američkoj administraciji. "Svet treba da ide američkim putem, jer to je pravi put." Skoro sigurno je ovo trenutna doktrina jedine preostale SuperSile. Čini mi se da su se ipak malo precenili. Ali to će im već vreme pokazati. Dalje raznorazne humanitarne akcije koje se mogu javiti u bilo kojoj od zemalja zapada predstavljaju idealnu šansu za odbacivanje rezervi stare hrane, lekova i opreme koja je tamo neupotrebljiva. Ima tu još dosta aspekata ali da ne širim temu bez razloga. Naravno konačni rezultati će ipak zavisiti od razvoja situacije na terenu, odnosno od uspešnosti ove agresije. Za sada im nije bila nešto posebno uspešna u smislu smanjenja vojnog potencijala naše zemlje i hvala Bogu što je tako. Ukoliko im se strategija totalno izjalovi(čemu se nadam) to ipak može doneti značajne negativne efekte samom NATO paktu. Ukoliko takva organizacija sa vrlo velikim budžetom i praktično najmodernijom vojnom tehnikom ne bude u stanju da savlada otpor naše zemlje koja broji 10 mil. stanovnika, to može značiti čak i raspad samog saveza, čemu se toplo nadam. NATO je jednostavno morao da pokaže svoju ozbiljnost posle višestrukih opomena našoj zemlji za napad. To je verovatno bio i najbitniji faktor za otpočinjanje vojne akcije. Da nisu tako postupili izgubili bi kredibilitet kako je izjavilo više zvaničnika ove organizacije. Meni se čini da su oni ovime izgubili mnogo više i tek će da izgube. Izvinjavam se na malo dužoj poruci ali eto nisam mogao da odolim. Darko
svet.28 job., -> #22, qpele
@ Cenim da je marketing razlog. Akcije pocinju tako da Ameri imaju @ sveze vesti ili direktan prenos akcije kada se umorni oko 4-5 vrate @ sa posla. Da, da, sede kuci, jedu kokice i gledaju kako nas bombarduju!! Mamu im njihovi...
svet.29 the.edge,
Ovo dobih na mail. Zavredjuje cak i vasu paznju. :( P.S. Obratite paznju na Ime i prezime posiljaoca! ========================= 77065 Za the.edge Nije procitano Od basim_raza@hotm 05.04.99. 16:12 906 chr --------------------------------------------------- From: "basim raza" <basim_raza@hotmail.com> To: the.edge@sezam.co.yu Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 06:22:25 PST Quick comments, about your web-page and your so call thoughts about the situation in Kosovo. First of all the saerbs think that they are taking back land that once belonged to them, then I guess you agree with Israiel's jew to take back jerusalem from the muslim. Then I am pretty sure that you agree with saddam hussain for taking back kuwait. because kuwait too once belonged to what is now iraq.Its been what over a century since you christian lost that land to the muslims. Man Bono was once heard saying all muslims are terrorist. Have you ever looked at yourself. You guys are the biggest butchers of all races. First it was Hitler and now its you guys . I hope you lose. and get hanged for cruelty to humankind. Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -------------------------------------------77065--- AcCeSS DeNiED
svet.30 qpele, -> #27, kiklop
> nacin necemo profitirati od te njihove nesrece. Uostalom pogresno > je poistovecivati celu naciju (? hm , postoji li americka nacija?) sa > politikom vlasti. Ovo je samo otelotvorenje one cuvene "Da komsiji Jeste progresno, ali jebeno je to sto bi nama apsolutno bilo isto bilo da je Bil na vlasti bilo daje bilo ko drugi. Isti djavo svi teze ka ostvarivanju jednog cilja a to je novi svetski poredak. Secate se samo koliko smo se radovali kad je Klinton dobio Busa na izborima ( bese '92 ?). Svi smo se nadali da ce se promeniti Americka spoljna politika. A ona se ni za dlaku nije promenila. > 3.)Americka vojna industrija na ovaj nacin pravi svojim proizvodima > reklamu, tako da se vise zemalja odluci na kupovinu upravo njihove > tehnologije. Ovde > reklama zavisi direktno od uspesnosti same tehnologije, sto znaci da > moze biti i negativna (F-117A Stealth). Da ali cenim da su Ameri time dosta dobili. Naime oni ni jedan stealth avion ne prodaju, da ne bi drugi dosli do te tehnologije. Znaci ne zaradjuju od njega. A kako je vazio za neprikosnoveni, cela masinerija koja je radila na razvoju istog je stala. Nema sta da radi jer su pronasli savrsenstvo => mnogo nezaposlenih. Sad kad je oboren slobodno ce moci da ga prodaju drugima, naravno po mnogo nizim cenama, ali ce zaradjivati od njega. Opet ce pokrenuti masineriju za razvoj novih tehnologija. Opet ce ti ljudi imati sta da rade.
svet.31 dr.iivan, -> #20, morkin
> Zašto ne lete više u dnevnim misijama? Psihološki efekat na narod je mnogo jači ako su napadi noću, pogotovo ako je okupatoru svejedno koje je doba dana kada se napada. Al' pretpostavljam da to već i sam znaš :)
svet.32 mango, -> #26, aandric
> Stvarno sam odvratan sto se radujem tudjoj nesreci > ali oni su me do toga doveli. Ne zavaravaj se, niko ne moze da te do toga dovede sem tebe samog.
svet.33 alien, -> #16, haevorn
[] a nije li i Avram Izrael slicnog porekla kako i Holbruk...? Sintetičkog? ;)
svet.34 kiklop,
Još jedna zanimljiva poruka ___________________________ From goxi@EUnet.yu Tue Apr 06 15:52:32 1999 Newsgroups: yu.forum.politika,alt.beograd Subject: NATO VOLI SRBE, zar ne shvatate to.. From: jovanic goran <goxi@EUnet.yu> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 15:52:32 +0200 Donese mi koleginica letak koji su juce izbacivali nad Suboticom u kojem se NATO pravda da nema nista protiv Srba, vec je to politika prisiljavanja i sprecavanja Miloseviceve vlade da....... Divno ljudi. Oni nas vole. Sta je sa ostalim narodima u YU. Njih znaci ne vole. Kako li ono sredise Dudaeva Rusi uz SAD satelitsku pomoc - raketa u uvo dok je telefonirao. A Gadafi - u spavacu sobu tomahavk. Znaci, da hoce da srede glavnog, poslali bi mu vatrene pozdrave. Dokazali su preciznost, selektivnost ciljeva i neumoljivost. Sto li onda porusise sve ono sto glavnom i ne treba, nego ono sto koristi obican narod? Sto li onda trose silne pare razbacujuci sekririce iz dana u dan, iz noci u noc? Zato sto vole Srbe? Izgleda da su ili nesto pokupili od ovih cro. koje su primili u partnerstvo za mir ili neko maaaaaalko laze. P.S. Slobo je toliki vernik, da svakodnevno ide u manastir Gracanicu da su i nju njemu za pakost gadjali vise puta. Pusi toliko da su tukli sve fabrike duvana. Nema nam predsednik ni avion ni helikopter pa mora da stalno prelazi preko mostova. Zato ih izgleda ruse. Samo mi nije jasan napad na porodiliste. Hoce mo li mi to dobiti jos jednu prinovu na Dedinju? Dajte ljudi pomozite malo ovima iz NATO u propagandi. Otpustice im ljude zbog nedostatka kreativnosti u poslu. Ubedite mene i sve ostale da je NATO ljubav prema Srbima neizmerna, pa da pocnem da mesim pogacu da ih srdacno docekam kao pravi domacin. Ima nesto i sljivovice, naci ce se. PORUCICU SAMO JEDNO NATO-u: LJUBAV KOJOM ME OBASIPATE, OBOSTRANA JE! U to vam se zaklinjem! Volim i ja vas... Stvarno
svet.35 kara,
Sistem amerika.zip
svet.36 morkin, -> #25, redneck
> >> Nije tacno. Ne napadaju samo iz pravca Rumunije. > > Nije tacno. Ja zivim u selu na par kilometara od rumunske granice. Znači, sa svih strana. :(
svet.37 morkin, -> #31, dr.iivan
> > Zašto ne lete više u dnevnim misijama? > > Psihološki efekat na narod je mnogo jači ako su napadi noću, > pogotovo ako je okupatoru svejedno koje je doba dana kada se > napada. Al' pretpostavljam da to već i sam znaš :) Pitanje je trebalo da glasi: Zašto ne lete više _i_ u dnevnim misijama? Jedino objašnjenje je da im je rizično... Ne vidim zašto bi inače prestali.
svet.38 morkin, -> #27, kiklop
> 1.) Naftne kompanije prodaju velike količine goriva NATO-u zbog > jasnih razloga što dovodi do povećane potražnje i povećava priliv > novca. Ne verujem da je to u pitanju. Oni troše naftu, ali ne verujem da je troše više nego pre, mislim da se potrošnja čak i smanjila. U vreme mira sam imao priliku da posmatram na radaru NATO avione - u svakom trenutku su iznad Bosne bila barem četiri, a ponekad i preko 30. Utrošak goriva će se smanjiti jer ovaj put nose više naoružanja i bombi pa ne mogu toliko dugo da ostaju u vazduhu. > se ipak malo precenili. Ali to će im već vreme pokazati. Dalje > raznorazne humanitarne akcije koje se mogu javiti u bilo kojoj od > zemalja zapada predstavljaju idealnu šansu za odbacivanje rezervi > stare hrane, lekova i opreme koja je tamo neupotrebljiva. Ima tu još > dosta aspekata ali da ne širim temu bez razloga. Tačno. "Humanitarna pomoć" je ono čemu je obično istekao rok upotrebe ili se opasno bliži kraju. Humanitarnu pomoć i inostrane kredite niko ne daje u kešu već u robi, pri čemu cenu te pomoći i robe naduva do neba. > što je tako. Ukoliko im se strategija totalno izjalovi(čemu se > nadam) to ipak može doneti značajne negativne > efekte samom NATO paktu. Ukoliko takva organizacija > sa vrlo velikim budžetom i praktično najmodernijom vojnom > tehnikom ne bude u stanju da savlada otpor naše zemlje koja broji > 10 mil. stanovnika, to može značiti čak i raspad samog saveza, čemu > se toplo nadam. Ne može. Mislim da će se, u najboljoj varijanti po Miloševića, sve završiti kao Dejton - sve tri strane urlaju da su pobednici i da su se baš za to zalagali od samog početka, a zapadne diplomate su najbolje. Mislim da se sada otišlo predaleko. NATO je u svemu ovome najmanje kriv. Dobio je od političara zadatak koji izvršava. Sebi ne može da dozvoli neuspeh - rade ljudi svoj posao. Bili ne može da odustane jer bi stvarno ispao još veći magarac - hoću da kakim, neću da kakim, hoću da bombardujem, neću da bombardujem...
svet.39 alien, -> #30, qpele
[] Jeste progresno, ali jebeno je to sto bi nama apsolutno bilo isto bilo [] da je Bil na vlasti bilo daje bilo ko drugi. Isti djavo Pa i nije... Ko redovno prati Forum, sigurno se seća da sam nedavno izazvao manju diskusiju pišući o tome kako su u ovom veku, iako su republikanci češće imali predsednike, u sve duge ratove Ameriku uvodili predsednici iz Demokratske partije. R predsednici ulaze u rat ako su sigurni u to da će ga brzo i efikasno završiti (gomila slučajeva u Latinskoj Americi, Irak pre nekoliko godina), tako da bi u ovom slučaju ili završili posao za 3-4 dana ili se ne bi ni uplitali, pri čemu je to drugo verovatnije. Jednostavno, za republikance je nepojmljivo da troše pare svojih poreskih obveznika da bi se borili za nečiju tuđu nezavisnost i slično. S druge strane, D, kao i sve leve partije, non-stop teže državnoj internvenciji po raznoraznim pitanjima, pri čemu uvek tvrde da je to u cilju nekakvog dobra, opšteg boljitka ili sprečavanja nekakve katastrofe i, kao po običaju, ukake stvar, pa kukaju kako su imali najbolje namere, a normalno je da će da ukake kada sprečavaju neophodno i neminovno - sprečavaju da "stvari" nađu svoju ravnotežu. Sem toga, i Bler i Šreder su na čelu levih partija i vlada. Znao sam da će nešto da pođe naopako kada su, posle dužeg vremena normalne vlasti, u Britaniji i Nemačkoj vlast uzeli oni... Koliko znam, i Solana je socijalista. [] svi teze ka ostvarivanju jednog cilja a to je novi svetski poredak. Šta je to u stvari NSP? Ozbiljno pitam. Kako ja poimam stvari, poredak kao pojam iziskuje postojanje ravnoteže, a unipolarni svet sigurno ne može biti uravnotežen. Kako se meni čini, i NSP i svet i nauka i priroda teže tome da se definiše novi istočni pol, a smatram nelogičnim i lošim da to bude nekakva "Nova Vizantija" (što je možda ono što bi neki hteli), već je pre logično da to bude pravi (azijski) Istok, koji je prilično profitirao i izrastao na poluvekovnom sukobu istoka i zapada Zapadne civilizacije. Čini mi se (ili bar želim da verujem u to) da su SAD i Rusija umorne od međusobnog rvanja, a i da su dominantne hrišćanske verske "škole" (katoličanstvo, protestantizam i pravoslavlje) umorne od koškanja i da je došlo vreme da shvatimo da imamo mnogo više zajedničkog i _korisno različitog_, nego zaista suprotstavljenog. [] Secate se samo koliko smo se radovali kad je Klinton dobio Busa na [] izborima ( bese '92 ?). Svi smo se nadali da ce se promeniti Americka [] spoljna politika. A ona se ni za dlaku nije promenila. Da li smo se baš svi radovali? ;) Pre bih rekao da je radovanje bilo posledica toga što su i državni i "nezavisni" mediji tokom prethodnih godina pretežno bili levi, iako na različite načine.
svet.40 chadra, -> #3, vlada.
>Vi jebenu jevrejsku okupaciju uporedjujete sa necim tako >plemenitim kao sto je nacional-socijalizam , to je van svake pameti, >i jos nesto...NS ce ponovo pobediti u Evropi, je jedino on moze da >zaustavi pomahnitale cioniste i da stane u kraj njihovim podmuklim >namerama samo sto ce ovoga puta i nas narod biti na njegovoj strani. E, ajde idi obrazuj se. Sramota je čuti ovako nešto od pripadnika naroda koji je stradao zbog tog istog nacional-socijalizma.
svet.42 qpele, -> #39, alien
> Sta je to u stvari NSP? Ozbiljno pitam. > Novi svetski poredak kome tezi Amerika je formiranje svetskog centra moci u svakom pogledu, ekonomskom, vojnom, naucnom... > Kako ja poimam stvari, poredak kao pojam iziskuje postojanje > ravnoteze, a unipolarni svet sigurno ne moze biti uravnotezen. Kako se Istorija je pokazala da je uvek postojala protiv teza i nadam se da ce tako i sada biti i tu protiv tezu Americi vidim u EU koja, za sada, nije dovoljno ekonomski jaka da se suprotstavi Americi.
svet.47 goth, -> #29, the.edge
> yourself. You guys are the biggest butchers of all races. First > it was Hitler and now its you guys . I hope you lose. and get > hanged for cruelty to humankind. Seme ti se zatrlo, nakot ti pomr'o!!! Kako Siptara svrstati u 'humankind'? To je vec problem drustva za zastitu zivotinja.
svet.48 goth, -> #41, ian.stuart
> Da smo ussli u pakt nebi najebali i nebi stradali.da negushim > vishe retji tju ti samo NE SERI Filipe, ne razocaravaj me. Sada nista neces postici propagiranjem nacional-socijalizma. Jevreje vise niko nece ganjati. Srbija nece osvajati svet. To sto je taj Vlada tvoj drug mu ne mora biti neka preporuka za ljude na Sezamu. Vise verujem u Chadrino no u tvoje obrazovanje jer si samo u ovom quote-u koji se sastoji od dve atributski prosirene recenice pocinio veoma grube gramaticke greske coveka koji nije procitao do sada vise od 200 stranica u skoli mu propisane lektire. Zato, ne govori coveku da ne sere, iz dva razloga: 1) U pravu je; 2) Nije se tebi obracao, a ni onog kome se obracao nije vredjao. Uostalom, stalno si blebetao 'Sinn Fein', a nisi znao nista u vezi sa irskim otporom. Jednostavno, branis ideju koja u tvom niskom stupnju obrazovanja deluje kao primamljiva. Odrasti! Citaj! Nauci sva slova!
svet.49 chadra, -> #41, ian.stuart
>e chadra,vlada je moj ortak i mogu ti retji da bi ti trebalo da >idesh da se obrazujesh,ili to samo malo previshe gledash rts >Nemoj da Prichash o Nazional.... poshto o tome nishta neznash >a... mi smo najebali u tom ratu zbog toga shto smo se priklonili >komunjarama i onom poznatom bolje rat nego pakt itd. >Da smo ussli u pakt nebi najebali i nebi stradali.da negushim vishe >retji tju ti samo NE SERI To što ti je ortak, to je tvoj problem. :> Vaše relacije me ne interesuju, međutim, bode mi oči kad neko piše nebuloze po konferencijama. Ako nameravaš da odgovaraš na ovu poruku, očekujem nešto konstruktivnije i kulturnije od "NE SERI". Živo me interesuje kako si zaključio da ništa ne znam o nacional-socijalizmu? I kad je dotični tako uzvišen, što ga se i sami Nemci stide? Šta da su saveznici potamanili sve germane na kraju WWII i zaposeli njihovu teritoriju pod izgovorom da im treba "Lebensraum"? Što se tiče ne ulaženja u pakt, ako ti je teško da podnosiš slobodu, idi nađi sebi gospodara.
svet.50 alien, -> #42, qpele
[] > Sta je to u stvari NSP? Ozbiljno pitam. [] [] Novi svetski poredak kome tezi Amerika je formiranje svetskog centra [] moci u svakom pogledu, ekonomskom, vojnom, naucnom... Kako se to njima isplati kada ne mogu efikasno da crpu ta (prvenstveno vojna i naučna) sredstva ako nemaju s kim da se nadmeću? Nepostojanje adekvatnog "protivnika" vodi dekadenciji...
svet.51 obren, -> #39, alien
> Šta je to u stvari NSP? Ozbiljno pitam. > > Kako ja poimam stvari, poredak kao pojam iziskuje postojanje > ravnoteže, a unipolarni svet sigurno ne može biti uravnotežen. Kako se > meni čini, i NSP i svet i nauka i priroda teže tome da se definiše novi > istočni pol, a smatram nelogičnim i lošim da to bude nekakva "Nova > Vizantija" (što je možda ono što bi neki hteli), već je pre logično da > to bude pravi (azijski) Istok, koji je prilično profitirao i izrastao > na poluvekovnom sukobu istoka i zapada Zapadne civilizacije. Evo kako taj famozni Novi Svetski Poredak vidi direktor Pentagonovog programa za razvoj i širenje NATO saveza... "Ljudi danas različito shvataju pojam NSP. To je poredak koji je nastao uklanjanjem komunizma, to je jednostavno globalna filozofija lišena bilo kakvih primesa takmičenja između Istoka i Zapada, između nekadašnje dve supersile."
svet.52 hercog, -> #41, ian.stuart
** retji tju ti samo NE SERI Svako od nas ima pravo na neko svoje mišljenje... Samo mislim da bi smo trebali da povedemo malko više računa o izražavanju, jer iako je sezam takav kakav je on je još uvek sredstvo javnog izražavanja... Sale
svet.53 hercog, -> #46, ian.stuart
** Da,ganjatjemo jevreje,i ne prochitao sam mnogo vishe od tih 200 A zbog čega ganjati jevreje? Nešto ti je zgrešio taj narod? ** u tom polju obrazujem kao i o NazionalSocializmu.Nemoj mi govoriti ** da odrastem,a shto se chitanja tiche,chitam mnogo i chitatju i dalje Svako bira svoj put, bio on dobar ili pogrešan. Upravo nas taj izbor čini čovekom... Sale
svet.54 qpele, -> #50, alien
> [] Novi svetski poredak kome tezi Amerika je formiranje svetskog centra > [] moci u svakom pogledu, ekonomskom, vojnom, naucnom... > > Kako se to njima isplati kada ne mogu efikasno da crpu ta > (prvenstveno vojna i naucna) sredstva ako nemaju s kim da se nadmecu? Dobro pitanje, konkurencija je u sustini svega, ali cinjenica je sada da Amerika tezi da ostvari uticaj na sto vecem delu sveta. Sada im je to veoma ekonomski isplativo, sire svoje trziste, stvaraju sebi savremeni vid kolonija...San svakoga kapitaliste je da ostvari monopol, a kako Amerikom kapital upravlja to je i cilj Amerike da isto ostvari na svetu. Sad sto to u praksi nije ostvarivo, sto takav svet ne bi mogao da opstane... Amerika ce se truditi da zavlada svetom dok god joj se to ekonomski isplati.
svet.55 goth, -> #46, ian.stuart
Ne naredjujem, vec savetujem. Nisi mi dao odgovor. Saopsti mi vase planove, i kako mislite da to izvedete. Hajde, razonodi me malo time...
svet.56 goth, -> #49, chadra
> To sto ti je ortak, to je tvoj problem. :> Vase relacije me ne > interesuju, medutim, bode mi oci kad neko pise nebuloze po > konferencijama. Ako nameravas da odgovaras na ovu poruku, > ocekujem nesto konstruktivnije i kulturnije od "NE SERI". > Zivo me interesuje kako si zakljucio da nista ne znam o > nacional-socijalizmu? I kad je doticni tako uzvisen, sto ga se > i sami Nemci stide? Sta da su saveznici potamanili sve germane > na kraju WWII i zaposeli njihovu teritoriju pod izgovorom da im > treba "Lebensraum"? > Sto se tice ne ulazenja u pakt, ako ti je tesko da podnosis > slobodu, idi nadi sebi gospodara. Pivo Chadri na moj racun! :)
svet.57 alien, -> #51, obren
[] Evo kako taj famozni Novi Svetski Poredak vidi direktor Pentagonovog [] programa za razvoj i širenje NATO saveza... [] [] "Ljudi danas različito shvataju pojam NSP. To je poredak koji je nastao [] uklanjanjem komunizma, to je jednostavno globalna filozofija lišena [] bilo kakvih primesa takmičenja između Istoka i Zapada, između nekadašnje [] dve supersile." Majko mila, kakvo licemerje?! Dekadencija kakvu opisuje je upravo u suprotnosti sa onim šta je potrebno za "razvoj i širenje" NATO saveza. _Protiv koga_ jačaju savez? ;)
svet.58 bastion, -> #46, ian.stuart
> Da,ganjatjemo jevreje,i ne prochitao sam mnogo vishe od tih 200 > stranica koje ti pominjesh,gramatichke greshke su lapsus i zato > kucam online pa mnogo brzam,Vlada je duzhe od mene na sezamu, > Nemoj mi naredjivati!Nema veze shto se nije meni obratjao ja imam > pravo da mu odgovorim.NIJE U PRAVU!Shto se tiche Iraca josh uvek se > u tom polju obrazujem kao i o NazionalSocializmu.Nemoj mi govoriti > da odrastem,a shto se chitanja tiche,chitam mnogo i chitatju i dalje Da imas ista u toj ludoj glavi ne bi ti palo napamet da pozelis da podrzavas nacizam. Vidi se da bas nista ni ne znas o nacizmu, o Adolfu, a verujem da ako se ikad budes obrazovao o nacizmu neces nikada ni da ga podrzavas. BTW, odrasti i izbi iz glave te bubice o nacizmu.
svet.59 dr.iivan,
Prof. dr Bozidar Raicevic RATOVI KAO MOTOR PRIVREDNOG RAZVOJA SAD U poslednjoj deceniji (i neku godinu vise) najveci broj zemalja sveta pokazuje znake recesije ili ostvaruje slabiji i neravnomeran privredni razvoj (stagnacija). Izuzetak su privrede Severne Amerike: posebno SAD i u manjoj meri Kanada. U tu kategoriju treba svrstati i Australiju i Novi Zeland, ali i ove dve zemlje registruju znake usporavanja u poslednjih nekoliko godina. No, njihova teznja u svetskoj privredi nije znacajna. Azijski kontinent potresa velika recesija (Japan i bivse azijske tigrove) a Kina ostvaruje tek nekoliko godina ozbiljniji privredni razvoj, no njena startna baza je veoma niska. Pitanje je dokle ce Kina moci da ostvaruje tako velike suficite u spoljnotrgovinskoj razmeni sa SAD i da iz toga izvlaci odgovarajuce (tehnoloske) koristi. Proizvodjaci nafte su u veoma izrazenim teskocama. Uz Irak, Iran i Kuvajt, to posebno vazi za Saudijsku Arabiju. Afrika je ako se izuzme nekoliko zemalja (JAR pre svega, a i on pokazuje znake posustajanja) u nazadovanju. Ostale zemlje su ekonomski neznatne i "istisnute" (marginalizovane) iz svetske privrede, cak i proizvodjaci nafte (Nigerija, Libija, posebno). Evropska Unija "gura" napred ali veoma neravnomerno i veoma sporo (stope rasta oko ili ispod 1% u posmatranom periodu, u pojedinim godinama oko 2-2,5%, a bilo je i negativnih stopa). Gusi je velika nezaposlenost, jos uvek izrazeni partikularizam, nejedinstvo prema daljem ujedinjenju i realizaciji sporazuma iz Mastrihta, prema evru i poljoprivredi, izrazeni budzetski deficiti (koji su bar za sada vesto prikriveni) i posebno mlak otpor trgovackom protekcionizmu SAD (poljoprivredni proizvodi, investiciona ulaganja, prodaja oruzja, nove tehnologije, slobodna trgovina sa ranijim kolonijama, niske cene energije i sirovina a one poticu iz bivsih evropskih kolonija ili interesnih sfera). Evropskoj Uniji odavno je jasno (Francuzima posebno), ali to ne zele da priznaju, da je ekonomski posmatrano njihovo ujedinjenje opsano po SAD. Evro postaje protivteza dolaru. Ostali deo Evrope je u "tranziciji", ka cemu to se sve manje jasno zna. Od svih tranzicionih privreda do sada ne pokazuje znake da posustaje jedino privreda Poljske, koja ima relativno skromniju ali i ravnomerniju stopu rasta. Ceska se gusi a to se dogadja i sa Madjarskom (nesto sporije). Za ostale privrede je poznato da su u velikim nevoljama. U najvecim mukama je na zalost Rusija. Njena privreda je jednaka privredi drzave Minesote koja je tek 13. drzava po privrednoj snazi u SAD. Latinska Amerika je takodje u velikoj recesiji posle nekoliko godina veoma uspesnog razvoja (meksiko, Brazil i Argentina). U periodu posle Drugog svetskog rata u svetu je bilo oko 260 ratnih sukoba raznih inteziteta i duzine trajanja. U preko 220 sukoba SAD su bile direktno angazovane svojim vojnim snagama (i svojim proizvodima) a u gotovo svim ostalim i svojim oruzjem ili na neki drugi indirektni nacin (opet svojim proizvodima). Kasnije, bezmalo u svim zemljama na cijim teritorijama se sukob odrzavao, SAD su se pojavljivale kao glavni organizator pomoci i obnove sukobom poremecene ili unistene privrede. I u ovom slucaju pomoc je stizala prevashodno u vidu proizvoda SAD. Rat i period obnove se za SAD pojavljuje kao pitanje opstanka ili bolje receno rat i period obnove se pojavljuje kao snazan motor privrednog razvoja SAD. To nije nista novo i nepoznato u ekonomskoj teoriji. Naime, pojacana ratna prizvodnja cini vaznu komponentu i faktor privrednog razvoja savremene privrede, posebno ako je ona uz to i politicki dominantna. Stavise, ratna proizvodnja se pojavljuje i kao podstrekac i ako prvi direktni korisnik najveceg broja naucnih i tehnickih dostignuca, a mnoga od njih i dan-danas imaju primenu iskljucivo za vojne potrebe. Znacaj ukljucivanja SAD u sukobe najbolje pokazuju skokovi i rast Dau Dzonsovog indeksa (indeks vrednosti akcija 30 americkih firmi na Njujorskoj berzi, postoji od 1896. godine) koji su izrazeni upravo u kriznim (ratnim i poratnim) vremenima. Vise od polovine firmi cije se akcije nalaze na listi su poznati proizvidjaci oruzja i vojnog materijala: Rejton (tomahavci i druge rakete ali i avioelektronika), Junajted tehnologzis (oruzje vezano za kopnene operacije ali i za elektroniku) , Sikorskaj (isto), Boing (ratni avioni), Dzeneral dinamiks (glavni snabdevac mornarice) i slicno. Drugi znacajan broj firmi sa liste su pak prizvodjaci robe siroke potosnje i robe koja se trazi u periodu obnove. Za najveci broj ovih firmi (ratnih i mirnodopsih) je takodje bitno da im je jedna od glavnih sirovina nafta i njeni derivati, a njihovu cenu diktira SAD. Od bombardovanja Iraka 1991. godine Dau Dzonsov indeks ima veoma izrazenu dinamiku: skocio je sa nesto manje od 3.000 na sadasnjih 10.000. Izrazenu dinamiku ima i od 24. marta 1999. godine, od dana pocetka agresije na SR Jugoslaviju. Privreda SAD je u poslednjih deceniju i nesto vise u velikom zamahu. Njen zamah se bazira na velikoj potrosnji (unutrasnjoj ali i spoljasnjoj) , uz jeftine sirovine i energiju. SAD kao veliki proizvodjac nafte (i odlucujuci koncesionar u proizvodnji nafte u drugim zemljama prizvodjacima nafte, ukljuciv i neke clanice SSSR-a), naftu kupuju i stokiraju u svojim praznim busotinama cime postizu da se cena nafte nalazi na veoma niskom nivou. Prognoze su govorile da ce cena nafte dostici krajem veka 70 dolara po barelu a ona je jedva oko 14 dolara. Ista je situacija i sa drugim sirovinama. To je cuvena americka manipulacija sirovinama kojoj Evropa ne moze da se odupre a ni ostali deo sveta. SAD imaju veoma veliki deficit - njihov razvoj prakticno finansiraju druge zemlje imajuci u vidu sistem i rezime placanja koji danas vladaju u svetu. Nije slucajno da su SAD najveci svetski duznik, pri cemu imaju nikad vecu uposlenost faktora proizvodnje sa izgledima da to na zalost zadrze i u narednom periodu. Tesko je reci koliko su dosadasnji (5. april 1999. godine) troskovi NATO agresije na SR Jugoslaviju. Procene su razlicite: od 500 miliona dolara (americke procene, na dan 4. aprila), preko 3 milijarde (evropske procene na isti dan) do 11 milijardi dolara (nase procene na isti dan, general Matovic). Rat u Zalivu je kostao izmedju 25 i 30 milijardi dolara. Sta ove cifre procena za agresiju NATO za SR Jugoslaviju znace imajuci u vidu ekonomsku snagu zemalja NATO? Bruto domaci proizvod zemalja NATO iznosi oko 15.000 milijardi dolara. U SR Jugoslaviji bruto domaci prizvod iznosi oko 15 milijardi dolara odnosno oko 0,1% bruto drustvenog proizvoda zemalja NATO. Evropska procena o troskovima agresije (3 mlrd) predstavlja samo 0,02% njihovog bruto proizvoda ali i jednu petinu naseg drustvenog bruto prizvoda. Naravno, ako se agresija nastavi i pojaca (kopnena dejstva) valja ocekivati povecanje ovog procenta. Obim razaranja u SR Jugoslaviji je velik, no njegove procene su veoma nezahvalne sve dok se ne zavrsi sa razaranjima. Izvesno je da ce one uveliko da premase troskove agresora. Ne treba da zavarava na prvi pogled dosadasnji mali znacaj troskova u odnosu na drustveni proizvod zemalja NATO. On je i te kako vec sada dovoljan dinamizator privrednog razvoja ali prvenstveno privrede SAD (dosadasnja agresija na SR Jugoslaviju je povecala Dau Dzonsov indeks): u najvecoj meri se njana "roba" trosi a drugi placaju jer SAD uvek uspeva da sve troskove u najvecoj meri prevali na ostale zemlje ucesnike u agresiji. Eto jos jedne potrosnje za SAD. Nije samo rat dinamizator privrednog razvoja. To je u trostruko vecoj meri (procene i dosadasnja iskustva Marsalovog plana) period posle prestanka ratnih dejstava, kada treba obnoviti poruseno. U periodu od nepunih cetiri godine koliko je trajao Marsalov plan (april 1948. kraj 1951. godine) SAD su zemljama Evrope "dale" robe (prvenstveno) i zajmova u iznosu od ondasnjih 12,2 milijarde dolara. "Pomoc" koju su SAD "davale" zemljama Evrope sastojala se u hrani , sirovinama i robi siroke potrosnje (nije bilo mnogo sredstava za rad!). Tako su SAD via facti pomogle preorijentaciju svoje ratne privrede na mirnodopsku. To se ponovilo svaki put posle svakog ratnog sukoba u kome su SAD ucestvovale (ranije posebno J. Koreja i Tajvan i sad Vijetnam, Kuvajt i Saudijska Arabija). Kad je rec o pomoci (a to je slucaj i sa finansiranjem putem zajma) valja skrenuti paznju na nacin (tehnologiju) koju SAD koriste. Roba mora biti americka bilo iz SAD bilo iz zemlje u cijoj je privredi investiran americki kapital. Ako je rec u finansiranju putem zajma onda je stvar jos gora. SAD daju kredit, ali se na realizaciju posla mora angazovati americka firma (ako ne u potpunosti onda dominantno svakako) a kredit vraca privreda zemlje koja ga je "dobila". Prozimanje rata i mira znaci prozimanje i dve vrste robe i dve vrste proizvodnje: ratne i posleratne (mirnodopske). To SAD veoma efikasno koriste u citavom posleratnom periodu. A obe proizvodnje koje se uslovljavaju povlace privredni razvoj. * Autor je profesor univerziteta i saradnik Ekonomskog instituta u Beogradu
svet.60 dr.iivan, -> #50, alien
> [] > Sta je to u stvari NSP? Ozbiljno pitam. > [] > [] Novi svetski poredak kome tezi Amerika je formiranje svetskog centra > [] moci u svakom pogledu, ekonomskom, vojnom, naucnom... > > Kako se to njima isplati kada ne mogu efikasno da crpu ta > (prvenstveno vojna i naučna) sredstva ako nemaju s kim da se nadmeću? Pitanje nije baš najsrećnije postavljeno, ali u svakom savremenijem uređenju države ili sveta je potrebna sila. Neko iz redova tvoraca NSP je rekao (suština): Vojna sila će nam uvek biti potrebna da se odbranimo od gladnih i siromašnih iz trećeg sveta, kada isti budu jednog dana nagrnuli na nas. Velika je misterija koji su pravi ciljevi NSP-a, bitni i manje bitni, njihov prioritet i putevi njihovog ostvarenja. Teorija ima vrlo mnogo i sve mogu biti tačne. Ako te to više zanima, pročitaj neku od knjiga koje govore o tajnim organizacijama koje stvaraju NSP, recimo "Trirateralna komisija", prof. dr Smilje Avramov - trenutno ne mogu da se setim nekih drugih, ima ih više. Nadam se samo da će ovog puta izostati tvoj poznati nadmeni "ja sam najpametniji" stav, da se i ova diskusija ne bi završila kao većina do sada - mojim odbijanjem da nastavim raspravu sa tobom. Nije mi samo jasno kako to da takav izvrstan poznavalac političkih i istorijskih prilika ne zna ništa o NSP-u? ;) Mora da je to još jedna od strategija kako najbolje proceniti sagovornika, njegovo znanje, metode kojima se koristi i slično :)))
svet.61 dbambi, -> #59, dr.iivan
=> Ostali deo Evrope je u "tranziciji", ka cemu to se sve manje jasno zna. Tranzicija ka west like tipu društva. To je svima tamo jasno i u tim zemljama postoji visok koncenzus oko puta i načina da se tamo stigne (ulazak u EU, NATO, potpuna orjentacija na zapad) => Od bombardovanja Iraka 1991. godine Dau Dzonsov indeks ima veoma =>izrazenu dinamiku: skocio je sa nesto manje od 3.000 na sadasnjih 10.000. veliki doprinos tom skoku dale su i firme koje se bave računarskom i srodnom tehnologijom (softver/hardver/internet). IBM je na Dau Džons listi od početka 80-tih, a MicroSoft negde od kraja zalivskog rata. Skokovi vrednosti akcija samo tih firmi su ogromni. => Prognoze su govorile da ce cena nafte dostici krajem veka 70 dolara po => barelu a ona je jedva oko 14 dolara. Ista je situacija i sa drugim => sirovinama. To je cuvena americka manipulacija sirovinama kojoj Evropa => ne moze da se odupre a ni ostali deo sveta. Zašto bi se Evropa (uglavnom potrošač sirovina) odupirala politici niskih cena tih istih sirovina ? Otprilike kao da sutra penzioneri iz bloka 45. izađu i protestuju zbog NISKE cene hleba koju su prisiljeni da plaćaju ! Bambi
svet.62 morkin, -> #50, alien
> Nepostojanje adekvatnog "protivnika" vodi dekadenciji... ... zbog čega SAD stalno stvaraju krize u svetu. Kad je ponestalo sukoba sa komunistima, na red je došla tema koja je jako podložna subjektivnoj proceni - ljudska prava. Ako bi se dosledno primenjivao princip za koji se sada SAD zalažu onda bi NATO morao da dejstvuje u većem broju zemalja sveta. Problem je u tome što NATO bira krizu koja je medijski najatraktivnija i potencira njene posledice do maksimuma (verujem da je kasapljenje između Turaka i Kurda, ono u Afganistanu, daleko krvavije od onog na Kosovu). Danas se retko laže, ali "globalno selo" je postalo prepuno informacija. Može se dokazati bilo šta, samo ako se uzmu neke istinite informacije, a zanemare druge. Čest oblik medijske manipulacije nije pričanje laži već pričanje istina koje navode na pogrešan zaključak. Pri tome se svesno zanemaruju istine koje ne idu u prilog zaključku koji žrtva medija treba da donese.
svet.63 alien, -> #60, dr.iivan
[] Nije mi samo jasno kako to da takav izvrstan poznavalac političkih i [] istorijskih prilika ne zna ništa o NSP-u? ;) ;))) Ne gutam i ne varim ono šta se o tome priča. Gajim sumnju. Um mi ne dopušta da poverujem da neravnoteža može predstavljati poredak. Stari (hladnoratovski) svetski poredak mi se definitivno nije sviđao i presrećan sam što je propao. Stoga me ne plaši bauk NSP, ali nisam ni toliko naivan da poverujem da je to "blagostanje" u kome trenutno "uživamo". Da li pravi NSP tek sledi ili je NSP samo prelazno stanje iz koga ubrzo sledi NNSP? (Zanimljivo, "NNWO" mi je omiljeni "kafić" ;).) Glasno razmišljam i postavljam retorička pitanja :). [] Ako te to više zanima, pročitaj neku od knjiga koje govore o tajnim [] organizacijama koje stvaraju NSP, recimo "Trirateralna komisija", [] prof. dr Smilje Avramov - trenutno ne mogu da se setim nekih drugih, Organski ne podnosim ni Smilju Avramov ni taj "fazon". Svi ti likovi koji cmizdre nad propašću velikog komunističkog bloka i plaše žene, decu i starce baucima Novog SveCkog PorEtka i paranoičnim pričama o monstruoznim zaverama smišljenim baš da bi se njima napakostilo itd. su jedan od najvećih problema koje ova zemlja ima. Ti "intelektualci" su, pokušavajući da sačuvaju komunizam, udarili u naci talambase i razbucali svoju državu, tvrdeći sve vreme da je to delo onih drugih i plod nekakve svetske zavere i održavajući mrak paranoje i ksenofobije, a svime time bili i saučesnici znaš-već-koga i znaš-već-čega. Šta da ti kažem sem da nisam puno iznenađen da je tako nešto tebe privuklo ;). Ne znam samo otkud ti ideja da bih ja u te priče mogao da poverujem. Nemam ništa protiv toga da bacim pogled na tu knjigu.
svet.64 alien, -> #59, dr.iivan
[] Ostali deo Evrope je u "tranziciji", ka cemu to se sve manje jasno zna. Uopšte nije nejasno. Osnovni zadatak tranzicije je privatizacija tj. prelazak sa "socijalističke" na "kapitalističku" ekonomiju tj. prelazak ekonomije u ruke (mnoštva) građana iz ruku državnih vlasti, jer je to preduslov za tržište i sa sobom nosi modernu demokratiju. Sve u svemu, "tranzicija" je voljni i kontrolisani (ponovni) prelazak na građansko društvo. Glavni pokretački cilj je stvaranje jakog tržišta. Potpuno je očekivano da tržišna privreda donese početnu krizu. Odlika socijalističkog vođenja ekonomije je da donosi brze "rezultate" i biva efikasnija kratkom roku, ali se cena toga plaća kasnije i takva ekonomija neminovno kreće i ide ka propasti... Tržišna ekonomija, s druge strane, biva haotična, gruba, nemilosrdna i za mnoge bolna u početku, ali se vremenom (prirodno) uskladi, izbrusi, uklopi, proradi kako treba i krene neumitno napred. Mislim da je jasno da je tranzicija racionalan izbor, a u tim zemljama je kontrolisana da bi bila manje bolna... Ova zemlja godinama odugovlači i izbegava tranziciju, pa je opet (i baš zbog toga) zapala u bolne muke, tranzicija se ipak bolno odvija i prirodno i nasilno, a i opet će morati da bude i voljno napravljena i biće mnogo surovija nego da je ispoštovana '90. godine. [] Od svih tranzicionih privreda do sada ne pokazuje znake da posustaje [] jedino privreda Poljske, koja ima relativno skromniju ali i ravnomerniju [] stopu rasta. Ceska se gusi a to se dogadja i sa Madjarskom (nesto [] sporije). Za ostale privrede je poznato da su u velikim nevoljama. Podaci su mu malo zastareli, jer je Mađarska već prevazisla očekivanu krizu (išli su bržim i bolnijim putem - pretežno prodajom privrede strancima), a Češka ide sporije, jer je išla mekšim putem (podela deonica radnicima). Što se ostalih tiče, isti je slučaj - što su više otezali ili otežu s neminovnim, to gore za njih... [] U najvecim mukama je na zalost Rusija. Njena privreda je jednaka privredi [] drzave Minesote koja je tek 13. drzava po privrednoj snazi u SAD. ...a Rusija je po tom pitanju najinertnija, jer je najveća. Nema tu mesta žalosti - svakom prema zaslugama...
svet.65 kum.djole,
Associated press: Americans fly overseas to join Kosovo rebels April 12, 1999 Web posted at: 11:16 AM EDT (1516 GMT) YONKERS, New York (AP) -- It was a tale of two cultures ready for war in Kosovo: Hundreds of Americans in camouflage uniforms in formation at a suburban parking lot, saying good-bye -- perhaps forever. A light rain began to fall Sunday as more than 400 soldiers-to-be dissolved into tear-drenched hugs with their families. This week they fly to Albania, to be trained for a death-defying mission, crossing the mountainous border sprinkled with land mines to join the Kosovo Liberation Army. An old man in a traditional Muslim skullcap wiped his eyes, standing alongside red-eyed grandmothers in headscarves. And tough youths from the Bronx wearing Yankees caps fell into bear hugs with weeping young men headed for guerrilla war. They live in America, these men and women who volunteered to fight the Serbs in Kosovo. And on Sunday, they pulled shiny new combat boots and army-green sacks from their Fords, Chevys and Mercedes-Benzes. "Albanians are willing to die for freedom!" yelled Joseph DioGuardi, head of the Albanian-American Civic League, to the recruits and their families. "Yeah!" responded 4-year-old Laura Muriqi, whose father, a Manhattan doorman, stood at attention in his camouflage uniform. "It's dangerous, but it's the last chance to be free or die," said Remziga Gjonbalaj, tears in her eyes. She was among about 500 Albanian-Americans weeping and cheering in the lot outside the Albanian-run Royal Regency Hotel. Her brother, a waiter in a New York restaurant, was one of the would-be soldiers leaving this week on charter flights from New York to Tirana, Albania. "I'm very happy I'm sending my son, I'm very proud," said Elfet Kodra, a mother clutching her youngest son's camouflage jacket. Born in Brooklyn, 19-year-old Isa Kodra is a National Guard platoon sergeant who was helping with the training. On Sunday, he stood facing the recruits, an American flag stitched to his sleeve. He's taking a leave of absence from the Guard to fight. The families were told to say their good-byes on this raw spring day at the swearing-in ceremony. As they listened to rousing speeches, many clung more tightly to their children. "Bye, daddy!" said Laura, waving from her aunt's arms. Wearing her best black leather shoes and snow white tights, she held up her tiny hand and shaped two fingers into a "V." Her 34-year-old father, Feriz Muriqi, and his 31-year-old brother, Besim, placed their hands on their hearts as a soprano with an Albanian accent sang "The Star-Spangled Banner," followed by the Albanian anthem. Then the crowd chanted "U.S.A.!" But there was no doubt which nation drew their fiercest allegiance. "Kosovo Liberation Army! Free Kosovo!" they roared. Little Laura echoed softly, "Free Kosovo..." Some recruits have U.S. military experience or, in the case of the older men, as soldiers in the Yugoslav army, but most are untrained. Their Army-Navy surplus uniforms were brand new, still sharply creased. Sanije Bruncaj, 19, was toughened up for combat by her stint as a wide receiver -- and the only female player -- on her Yonkers high school football team. "It's not going to be pretty," said the Mercy College student, gently stroking the crewcut head of her 7-year-old brother, Gezim.
svet.66 kiklop,
Minsk, 00,23 h - Ruski i beloruski zvaničnici ocenili su da SRJ ne bi trebalo da pristupa Savezu Rusije i Belorusije dok se ne okončaju sukobi. "Bez sumnje, dok su u toku ratne akcije, ne mogu se donositi ekstremne odluke", rekao je prvi zamenik premijera Belorusije Vasilij Dolgolev na konferenciji za štampu, posle sastanka koordinacionog tela Saveza Rusije i Belorusije u Minsku. On je dodao da savez sa Jugoslavijom smatra "ekstremnom odlukom". Zamenik ruskog premijera Vadim Gustov rekao je "dok traje rat, nije baš najmudrije razmatrati ovo pitanje odmah čim je ono pokrenuto, posebno zbog toga što je privreda u Rusiji, uprkos nekim nagoveštijama oporavka, u dubokoj krizi", javlja Interfax. ************************************************ Da li je neko iznenađen? Ja nisam nimalo (nažalost) :(((. Ovime su praktično ameri dobili zeleno svetlo za nastavak ratnih dejstava na SRJ.... A kao potvrda sledeća vest: ************************************************ Vašington, 00,07 h - Američki predsednik, Bil Klinton najavio je početak nove faze rata na Kosovu. Vazdušni napadi NATO biće podignuti na novi nivo, izjavio je Klinton posle razgovora sa predstavnicima američkog kongresa u Vašingtonu.Nato mora nastaviti istim kursom, mora istrajati, izjavio je američki predsednik, prenosi Rojters.
svet.67 mango, -> #47, goth
> Seme ti se zatrlo, nakot ti pomr'o!!! Kako Siptara svrstati u > 'humankind'? To je vec problem drustva za zastitu zivotinja. Jedna stvar mi nije jasna - kako neko tvog obrazovanja moze da izjavi ovako nesto? Ili mislis da tvoj Bog nije isti i za Siptare?
svet.68 giovanni, -> #53, hercog
Ę? A zbog čega ganjati jevreje? Nešto ti je zgrešio taj narod? Kako zašto? Pa bre prljava, smrdljiva jevrejčina je prokazala Isusa. P.S. A i jevreji vladaju svetom. P.P.S. Ovo je neukusna šala. P.P.S. Nema veze što je Isus takođe bio Jevrej.
svet.69 giovanni, -> #47, goth
Ę? > yourself. You guys are the biggest butchers of all races. First Ę? > it was Hitler and now its you guys . I hope you lose. and get Ę? > hanged for cruelty to humankind. Ę? Seme ti se zatrlo, nakot ti pomr'o!!! Kako Siptara svrstati u Ę? 'humankind'? To je vec problem drustva za zastitu zivotinja. Pa tvoja rečenica daje čoveku za pravo.
svet.70 mango, -> #63, alien
> Da li pravi NSP tek sledi ili je NSP samo prelazno stanje iz > koga ubrzo sledi NNSP? (Zanimljivo, "NNWO" mi je omiljeni "kafic" ;).) Majku mu, sto sad nije Orvel ziv :)) Mozda sam i paranoik, ali moje misljenje o svemu tome je da, ma koliko se princip monopola na trzistu cinio primamljivim svetskim kapitalistima isl., postoji konsenzus o podeli interesnih sfera medju drzavama. Nije uopste bitno koje su drzave u pitanju, niti je u pitanju strah (pre bih rekao da je u pitanju perverzija). Jednostavno, narod se moze kontrolisati sve dok postoji neka "realna" opasnost kad stupaju na scenu zastitnici-pastiri. Nikad niko ne pobedjuje niti gubi, menjaju se samo trenutne snage. Zamisli situaciju kad ne bi bilo godisnjeg budzeta Pentagona od oko 250 milki $ (u pitanju su milijarde, da ne bude zabune): za tu lovu bi moglo svo skolovanje na americkim fakultetima da bude besplatno (i jos da pretekne). Meni se cini da nekome ne odgovara da ljudi budu obrazovani, svesni sebe i svoje individualnosti, tolerantni prema drugima... Mozda gresim, tj. nadam se da gresim. > Organski ne podnosim ni Smilju Avramov ni taj "fazon". Svi ti Ko je ta Smilja Avramov? Prema tvom opisu, zakleo bih se da je akademik SANU :>>>>>
svet.71 mango, -> #66, kiklop
> Minsk, 00,23 h - Ruski i beloruski zvanicnici ocenili su da SRJ ne bi > trebalo da > pristupa Savezu Rusije i Belorusije dok se ne okoncaju sukobi. "Bez sumnje, Hvala ti Boze O:))))) Nadam se da nece biti nista od toga ni nakon sukoba (ako nakon sukoba uopste bude nesto:>>>
svet.72 goth, -> #67, mango
>> Seme ti se zatrlo, nakot ti pomr'o!!! Kako Siptara svrstati u iŔA´şzivotinja. > Jedna stvar mi nije jasna - kako neko tvog obrazovanja moze da > izjavi ovako nesto? Ili mislis da tvoj Bog nije isti i za > Siptare? Ne verujem u Boga. Bog je covek. A ovo iznad je bila sala bez smajlija.
svet.73 dr.iivan, -> #63, alien
> [] Nije mi samo jasno kako to da takav izvrstan poznavalac političkih i > [] istorijskih prilika ne zna ništa o NSP-u? ;) > > Ne gutam i ne varim ono šta se o tome priča. Gajim sumnju. Um mi > ne dopušta da poverujem da neravnoteža može predstavljati poredak. Ne gutaš i ne variš? A šta variš? I meni je teško da zamislim takav poredak, ali izgleda da ima nekih sa drugačijim umovima i idejama. > Stari (hladnoratovski) svetski poredak mi se definitivno nije > sviđao i presrećan sam što je propao. Hm, taj poredak ma kakav da je bio, ostavljao je izvesnu dozu mira zemljama trećeg sveta i to je bilo pozitivno. > Stoga me ne plaši bauk NSP, ali nisam ni toliko naivan da > poverujem da je to "blagostanje" u kome trenutno "uživamo". Možda projekat "NSP" za nas nije ni predvideo blagostanje? > [] Ako te to više zanima, pročitaj neku od knjiga koje govore o tajnim > [] organizacijama koje stvaraju NSP, recimo "Trirateralna komisija", > [] prof. dr Smilje Avramov - trenutno ne mogu da se setim nekih drugih, > > Organski ne podnosim ni Smilju Avramov ni taj "fazon". Svi ti Onda ti ne mogu pomoći.
svet.74 lmicha, -> #53, hercog
>> Kako zasto? Pa bre prljava, smrdljiva jevrejcina je prokazala >> Isusa. Pa i ISUS Hrist je bio "PRLJAVA SMRDLJIVA JEVREJCINA" jer se to kod njih gleda po majci...IAKO mu je tata bio bog. Elem...mozda i za nas sad u NATO-u govore da smo PRLJAVI SMRDLJIVI SRBI.... A ono sto oni sad nama cine mogu da svrstam u neonacisticku zaveru...i to mogu i da argumentujem. Meni je preko glave fasista, rasista , Q.Clux.Clan-ovaca, Nacista i ostalih. Ko god je za to da se uniste Jevreji nek bude mudo pa nek ode u palestinu da ratuje protiv istih.... Uostalom....gospodo NEONACISTI, imajte cojones...pa trazite jevreje po beogradu i terajte ih da nose zute davidove zvezde na rukavu i reveru.... Muka mi je od prljavih nacistickih svinja...narocito zbog onoga sto su uradili na ovim prostorima. (iz svake familije je bar jedna osoba stradala zahvaljujuci njima) A i zbog drugih zrtava. Prema tome...Ja bih sa uzivanjem palio u pechima bas naciste i radio im sve ono sto oni zele da urade narodima koji nista nisu krivi. GIFTMASTER
svet.75 hercog, -> #74, lmicha
>> Prema tome...Ja bih sa uzivanjem palio u pechima bas naciste i >> radio im sve ono sto oni zele da urade narodima koji nista nisu >> krivi. >> GIFTMASTER Ja bih bio vrlo zadovoljan kad mi se ne bi trpale reči u usta koje nisam izgovorio i koje nisam napisao. Sledeći put malko bolje pogledaj kome i šta odgovaraš pre nego što lupiš reply na poruku. To što si ti napisao kao odgovor na ko zna koju moju poruku, ne da nema veze sa tom mojom porukom nego nema veze uopšte sa mnom. Ja se takođe slažem da ljude ne treba deliti ni po kojem osnovu, da li to bila vera, nacija, boja kože i sl. Samo te umoljavam da pripaziš kad repliciraš, pošto očigledno to ne radiš... Sale
svet.76 alien,
Ove citate o ratu sam davno izvukao iz jedne igre (Warlords 2), čuvam ih, pa mi sad pade na pamet da ih pogledam iz ovog ugla: War is a natural extension (Rat je prirodni produžetak of nature prirode) - Greenbow War's a brain-spattering (Rat je mozgoprskajuća windpipe-splitting art gušocepajuća umetnost) - Lord Byron War is nothing more (Rat nije ništa drugo than the continuation of do nastavak politike politics by other means drugim sredstvima) - Karl von Clausewitz War is only a cowardly (Rat je samo kukavički escape from the problems beg od problema of peace mira) - Thomas Mann As long as there are (Dok god postoje suvereni sovereign nations possessing narodi koji poseduju great power, war is veliku snagu, rat je inevitable neizbežan) - Albert Einstein We go to gain a little patch (Idemo da steknemo parče of ground zemlje That hath in it no profit Koje sobom ne nosi nikakvu dobit but the name sem samog imena) - William Shakepeare A short decisive war is one (Kratak odlučujući rat je of the most ancient jedna od najstarijih and dangerous of i najopasnijih među human illusions ljudskim zabludama) - Robert Lynd We are at great disadvantage (U velikoj smo nezgodi when we make war kada povedemo rat on people who have protiv naroda koji nothing to lose nema šta da izgubi) - Francesco Guicciardini Oh, the brave Music of (O, hrabra Muziko a distant Drum! dalekog Doboša!) - Edward Fitzgerald How good bad music and (Kako dobro loša muzika bad reasons sound i loši razlozi zvuče when we march against kada koračamo protiv an enemy neprijatelja) - Friedrich Nietzsche Lo! Thy dread empire, (Gle! Tvoje užasno carstvo, Chaos! is restor'd. Haos! je obnovljen.) - Alexander Pope History shows that there (Istorija nam pokazuje da are no invincible armies nema nepobedivih vojski) - Josef Stalin War is elevating, because (Rat uzdiže, jer the individual disappears pojedinac nestaje before the great conception pred velikom idejom of the state države) - Heinrich von Treitschke The inevitableness, (Neizbežnost, the idealism, idealizam and the blessing of war i blagoslov rata) - Friedrich von Bernhardi As long as war is (Dok god se rat regarded as wicked, smatra opičenim, it will always have its uvek će imati svoju fascination privlačnost) - Oscar Wilde What we gain by war (Ono šta dobijamo ratom is all that we should je sve ono šta je trebalo have lost without it da izgubimo bez njega) - William Pitt Force and fraud are (Sila i prevara su in war the two u ratu dve cardinal virtues glavne vrline) - Thomas Hobbes The purpose of all (Svrha svih war is peace ratova je mir) - Saint Augustine War has become a (Rat je postao luxury only small luksuz koji samo mali nations can afford narodi mogu da priušte) - Hannah Arendt
svet.77 goth, -> #67, mango
>> Seme ti se zatrlo, nakot ti pomr'o!!! Kako Siptara svrstati u >> 'humankind'? To je vec problem drustva za zastitu zivotinja. > Jedna stvar mi nije jasna - kako neko tvog obrazovanja moze da > izjavi ovako nesto? Ili mislis da tvoj Bog nije isti i za > Siptare? Ne verujem u Boga. Bog je covek. A ovo iznad je bila sala bez smajlija.
svet.78 giftmaster, -> #75, hercog
Sorry....bejah bio vrlo rezigniran kada sam pisao poruku... a uostalom, i nisam se obratjao tebi..vetj generalno... Nacistima i slicnim....kad neko odvali nesto tipa "Prljava smrdljiva Jeevrejcina" onda se sam svrstava...hteo on to ili ne...a na njemu je da pokaze suprotno. Moja je greska sto sam ne razmisljajutji isao na reply.... trebao sam da citiram rechenicu i da napisem komentar... Izvinjavam se jos jednom Ivan
svet.79 uuud, -> #72, goth
>> Ne verujem u Boga. Bog je covek. Aha, a majmun je zirafa ...
svet.80 krsta,
Evo slika Bill Clintona iz mladjih dana sa kevom i polubratom. KRLE bill.jpg
svet.81 alien, -> #62, morkin
[] > Nepostojanje adekvatnog "protivnika" vodi dekadenciji... [] [] ... zbog čega SAD stalno stvaraju krize u svetu. Kad je ponestalo sukoba [] sa komunistima, na red je došla tema koja je jako podložna subjektivnoj Treba primetiti da su, dok god je kao protivnik postojao mračni Istočni blok, Ameri morali da igraju ulogu "dobrih" čak i više nego što im pristaje. Mnogo toga čega se inače ne bi libili je bilo nezamislivo, da ne bi bili "isti kao komunisti". Ograničavanje sloboda i autoritet ogoljene sile su bili imidž Sovjeta, a Ameri su furali slobodu, demokratiju, privatnost, raskoš, kreativnost itd. i sasvim zasluženo pobedili. Borili su se dobrotom i dobrota je pobedila tj. principi za koje su se zalagali su pobedili, tako da je sada "nametanje" tako nečeg besmisleno, a bolji od toga ne mogu biti... U rukama im je ostala velika sila (stečena na ime dobra), koja postavlja uslove, pravila i preti time da podredi sve sebi samoj.
svet.82 alien,
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE By Jesse Enloe, President Republic of Texas Provisional Government Date: March 29, 1999 It is always a tragedy when world events include war, and current events are no exception. It is even more of a tragedy when several nations join together and engage in an act of war upon a sovereign nation that has not attacked or perpetrated any act of war against them. Although the reasons given are proposed as justification for a military attack on the Serbs of Yugoslavia, there is no justification for one nation or many to involve themselves in the internal affairs of another nation or initiate an unprovoked military attack. Have we lost completely the meaning of the word Sovereignty? We believe that this is the case. All nations are loosing their national sovereignty to the true enemy of all nations, the United Nations organization. America is supposed to have a republican form of government. We are all told currently, on a daily basis, that we have a democracy and are promoting democracy around the world. The people of the world need to understand that a republican government is one where a majority of the people cannot infringe upon the rights of the minority, no matter how good the excuse or how justifiable the cause. A democracy on the other hand is where 51% can, with impunity, violate the rights of the 49%. If the leaders of the United States understood the principles of freedom and sovereignty, upon which their nation was founded, they would apply it to international affairs and realize that just because a group of nations decide to does not give them the right to tell another nation how to handle its internal affairs. The People of the Republic of Texas do not support, and indeed condemn, the current acts of war perpetrated by NATO, led by the United States, against the Sovereign Nation of Yugoslavia. This does not mean that we agree with alleged unlawful acts by the Serbs against the Kosovars. We do not condone violence by anyone. Our statement to the United States and NATO is: STOP THE UNWARRANTED ATTACKS, MANAGE YOUR OWN AFFAIRS, AND LET OTHER NATIONS MANAGE THEIR OWN!! We would challenge the people of America to stand against the aggression of their elected officials upon other nations. http://texasrepublic.com
svet.83 goth, -> #79, uuud
Definitivno sam izrekao misticko tumacenje. Ne znam sta ti zanci "a majmun je zirafa". Ako ne volis mistike procitaj "Misli" Blez Paskala, poglavlje o religiji.
svet.84 kum.djole,
Death toll could reach 25, police say LITTLETON, Colorado (CNN) -- At least two heavily armed young men opened fire and tossed explosives Tuesday at an affluent suburban Denver high school, killing students and possibly faculty members, authorities said. Sheriff John Stone said as many as 25 people were killed, including two suspects found dead in the library. About 20 people were wounded, a police spokesman said. Stone, sheriff of Jefferson County, said he believed the two suspects died of self-inflicted wounds in an apparent "suicide mission." Two gun-toting teens were dressed in black trench coats and wearing masks, students said. Some said they were thought to be member of a small group of "outcasts" at the school known as the "trench coat mafia." President Clinton said Tuesday night he and the first lady were profoundly saddened and shocked by the shooting. Clinton said the tragedy could be a wake-up call for the nation. "We do know that we must do more to reach out to our children and teach them to express their anger and to resolve their conflicts with words, not weapons," the president said.
svet.85 uuud, -> #83, goth
>> Definitivno sam izrekao misticko tumacenje. Misticko po cemu, po kome ? Postoji puno misterija, mistika ... ili mislis na Misterije u smislu tajnih religija helenistickog razdoblja ? Ovo sam rekao samo kao kontatezu na "Bog je covek" u okviru ateistickih shvatanja koja su ocigledno bila manifestovana u poruci. Inace, stav vecine crkava, ukljucujuci nasu Crkvu je da je Hrist bio BogoCovek, dakle, po rodjenju covek, a po prirodi Bog, u okviru toga, poruka naravno i ne bi bila bogohulna u religijskom smislu. >> Ne znam sta ti zanci "a majmun je zirafa". Pa, to mi znaci zgodno poredjenje. Isto bi bilo kao i da sam rekao "Zvucnik je mikroprocesor." ili "Monitor je drvo.", sasvim besmisleno, jer sa stanovista bilo kog filozofskog sistema ili ideje (ukoliko se radi o autoru koji trezveno i bez predrasuda barata pojmovima), ateizma, gnosticizma, skolastike, panlogizma , radi se jednostavno o dva razlicita pojma, dve razlicite imenice koje oznacavaju dve razlicite stvari, u denatativnom smislu se mogu jasno kategorizovati, i (manje-vise) definisati ... Nista ne moze da istovremeno bude i covek i Bog bas kao sto nista ne moze istovremeno da bude i majmu i zirafa ...
svet.86 praktica,
Ja bi Amerikance uporedio sa vampirima : 1) razlikuju se od ostalih, ali se toga ni malo ne stide 2) ujedaju i gde netreba 3) nevole prirodu, pa zato napadaju nocu 4) ne znaju sta znaci zivot 5) gladni su i najsladji su im laki plenovi itd. ko hoce neka doda nesto :) ...
svet.87 praktica, -> #79, uuud
Ne verujem ni ja-
svet.88 uuud, -> #86, praktica
>> 2) ujedaju i gde netreba Maaaa, posisace na kraju ...
svet.89 kum.djole,
CNN poll Today marks the beginning of TV Turnoff Week. Can you live without television for a week? Yes, and I will 28% 9661 votes Yes, but I won't 49% 17077 votes No, and I won't even try 23% 8040 votes Total: 34778 votes
svet.90 aandric, -> #89, kum.djole
> CNN poll > > Today marks the beginning of TV Turnoff Week. > Can you live without television for a week? > > Yes, and I will 28% > > 9661 votes > Yes, but I won't 49% > 17077 votes > No, and I won't even try 23% > 8040 votes > > Total: 34778 votes RTS poll Today marks the beginning of TV Turnoff Week. Can you live without television for a week? No, but I have to 100% 10.000.000 votes Total:10.000.000 votes :))))))) :(((((((
svet.91 uuud, -> #90, aandric
>> No, but I have to 100% 10.000.000 votes Maaaa, kad smo vec kod toga, ja primam perfektno RTS (doduse preko kablovske), na Kosovu znam da ga odavno nema, a kako mi javlja drugarica iz Banata, nema ga ni tamo ... tako da je izgleda RTS vec sveden u okvire Beogradskog pasaluka ...
svet.92 alien,
STRATFOR's Global Intelligence Update April 26, 1999 Weekly Analysis -- NATO Summit Generates Gridlock Summary: With the war in Kosovo going badly, the attendees at the NATO summit decided not to think about the problem. They decided neither to change the war plan nor to initiate a radical diplomatic solution. NATO's decision not to rethink its policy derives from the institutional structure of NATO. It was not designed to think on its feet. It also leaves the solution to the war, whether through war or through diplomacy, in the hands of nation-states like the United States and Germany. What Kosovo has demonstrated is the vitality of nationalism, the nation-state, and ultimately, the sovereign nation. Dreams of multilateral solutions to international conflicts are dying a nasty death over Yugoslavia. The United States will agree to peace in large part because NATO didn't work. Analysis: What has emerged from the NATO summit concerning Kosovo is pure gridlock. Three basic decisions were made: first, there will not be a ground war; second, there will not be a major redefinition of negotiating terms; and, third, there will be an intensified air war. Having bluffed and been called, NATO, rather than reshuffling the deck, has decided to keep pushing in money, hoping that Milosevic will eventually fold his hand. The only new element to emerge is an agreement to embargo oil shipments to Yugoslavia. That decision in itself was shocking. Consider the extraordinary fact that NATO even considered going to war with Serbia without having established a blockade. That absurdity was compounded when it looked for a few days like NATO could not generate unanimity on the subject of a blockade. After intense diplomacy, everyone fell into line. Finally, NATO countries like Hungary will make the major concession of agreeing not to ship oil to Serbia. What is shocking is that this should have even required discussion. Equally shocking was what was not discussed: what to do if the Russians, the Chinese, or, for that matter, any country decides to deliver oil. NATO has decided to board and inspect all ships. What does NATO plan to do if the Russians decline to be boarded? Will NATO use force against Russian ships? Chinese ships? It is not the decision that is shocking, nor the thought that ships will be boarded. What is shocking is that NATO has given very little thought to how these policies will be implemented by the Lt. Commanders who will be called upon to enforce them in split second decisions. The issue here isn't thoughtful or thoughtless policymaking. The issue here is far more serious: whether NATO at fifty is institutionally capable of managing a military crisis. For the past month, what we have seen are individual NATO members trying to use the machinery and legitimacy of NATO to formulate and execute a war-fighting strategy. A strategy, by definition, requires flexibility, comprehensiveness and the effective generation of options in the face of unexpected or unpleasant events. NATO has shown itself to be inflexible, unable to provide a comprehensive approach to the war, and unable to face and respond to unexpected events and painful truths. NATO, as an institution, is in deep denial. This is not to say that the NATO officials and its military officers are in denial. They are painfully aware of the deep problems they are facing. The denial is being generated by the institution itself. What is now obvious is that there will not be an institutional solution to the crisis. By this we mean that NATO, as an institution, which involves decisions by nineteen governments and operates on the bases of consensus, cannot generate a vision for either winning or concluding the war. NATO can neither shift its military strategy nor diplomatic strategy without losing the consensus its decision-making is predicated upon. Therefore, NATO is locked in to the existing policy that isn't working because flexibility has become impossible. If the United States were to stage a fight for a ground option, or Italy a fight for acceptance of Russian proposals, the entire political edifice of NATO would buckle. It is easier to evade problems than to face them. It is important to understand how NATO went from being a solid bulwark against the Soviets into a herd of cats, unable to make any definitive decisions. The problem is rooted in the very nature of the institution. NATO's decision making structure was designed for a world in which major decisions were locked in by history and ratified by doctrine. NATO had a founding purpose: to prevent the Soviets from conquering Germany and Western Europe. NATO also had a fundamental concern, which was to make certain that all members carried out their military obligations in the event of war. The deepest problem facing NATO was to create confidence in the idea that in the event of war, each nation would automatically do what it was pledged to do. So, for example, a great fear of the Europeans was that in the event of a Soviet invasion, the United States might choose not to commit the forces promised to defend Europe. More important yet was the widespread concern that the United States would not carry out its guarantees at the last minute, being unwilling to risk U.S. troops, or the city of Chicago, to deter Soviet occupation of Bonn. The mission was known. What was not known was the extent to which members would commit themselves to their obligation at the moment of truth. NATO solved this problem with what we might call a culture of planning. With a clearly understood mission, NATO planners analyzed every possible contingency. For every contingency, they generated a plan. For every plan, they allocated forces. For every force, NATO devised endless training exercises designed to make execution as automatic as possible. That is precisely what NATO did: they created a system of automated, conditioned responses that were to be executed so rapidly that participants did not have the time or opportunity to pause, reflect and potentially renege. The planning and exercise process, quite apart from being necessary for military preparedness, was also an instrument that psychologically and operationally locked in the actors. Under such and such circumstances, given the doctrine and the particular plan that applied, units in North Carolina, the Netherlands, and Sicily all went into motion. In operational terms, the goal was to make the commitment of forces as thoughtless as possible. Even complex war fighting doctrines like Air-Land Battle, which foresaw a fluid and unpredictable battlefield, still contained highly routinized, automated procedures for the initiation of conflict. NATO's internal battles were referred to countless planning cells that packaged a basic strategic challenge into an array of automated responses. In many respects, scenario construction, contingency planning, war gaming, and repetitive exercises was the glue that held NATO together, staving off the fear of a last minute doublecross. The rock on which the church rested was the Soviet threat. Without that threat, contingency planning collapses. War gaming is built on a base of sand. Exercises become intellectual in nature, not preparatory. NATO now operates in a highly undefined set of circumstances. Having debated the meaning of NATO ever since the collapse of communism, NATO suddenly found itself with a mission, one wholly unanticipated. There were no plans, there were no wargames, there had been no exercises and no one was on automatic pilot. Therefore the inevitable happened: everyone became wholly unreliable. Nevertheless, NATO decided to intervene in Kosovo. However, NATO's exquisite preplanning process with its branching logics and pre-negotiated solutions was not in place. Rather, Yugoslavia required planning on the fly. Basic strategic decisions have to be made in parallel with operational implementation and tactical deployment. NATO was simply unable to cope with that because its strategic planning process assumes a dramatic separation in time between strategic planning and operational implementation. The strategy is to be discussed at various levels in dozens of working groups, hammered out over years and locked into place. In Kosovo there was no time for that planning and no time to generate the political consensus to support a strategic concept. The result is not so much chaos as paralysis. Behind this, there is a fundamental problem of political theory: the problem of sovereignty. National sovereignty does not simply mean that a government has the right to make the decisions it wants without being overridden by a higher authority. Sovereignty means that the internal processes of a country define how that country will respond. During the Cold War, the automated process of NATO was specifically designed to suspend national sovereignty. At the crucial moment, when Soviet tanks crashed across the Fulda Gap, it would have been disastrous to have individual nations exercising their national sovereignty by turning over the decision to commit forces to their internal political process. NATO's planning process was designed to automate the commitment of forces so as to avoid the problem of national sovereignty. That curtailing of national sovereignty was, in turn, the cost the members were willing to pay in order to protect Western civilization from a menace, the Soviet Union, which threatened its very foundations. The suspension of national sovereignty to multinational organizations and their bureaucracy makes a great deal of sense when the stakes are as high as they were from 1948 until about 1990. But the suspension of national sovereignty in the interest of a peacekeeping, humanitarian mission is quite another matter. Thus, not only has NATO's mechanism for short-circuiting sovereign decisions broken down because of a lack of strategic focus, but the willingness of NATO members to suspend sovereignty without a fundamental threat to civilization has dissolved. Try as Prime Minister Blair might to brand Milosevic, he is not a threat to civilization. If every charge leveled against him were completely true, then he would be a vicious, genocidal thug. But he would still not be a threat to civilization in the sense that Hitler or Stalin was. He just doesn't have the battalions. Since he is not a fundamental threat to the whole, NATO simply doesn't have the political consensus, decision making structure or flexibility to craft strategies, operations and tactics in real- time. That is the weakness of any multinational grouping and why NATO cannot function as the speechmakers in Washington might wish. To put it simply, since NATO is not sovereign, it cannot make sovereign decisions. Its rapidly generated responses represent the lowest common denominator. Generating a subtle diplomacy and a flexible war-fighting strategy is simply beyond its institutional energy. The essence of success in war is surprise. The essence of success in diplomacy is subtlety. The essence of both is secrecy, timing, and above all, somebody in charge who can make decisions. The relevant joke might be, what has 19 mouths and no brain? Answer: NATO leaders at a summit. Individually, each of them might well be brilliant in every way. Collectively, the pathetic spectacle of speechifying coupled with a complete lack of imagination could only have encouraged Milosevic. The summit meeting was a time to forge a dramatic change in war plans. Plan A failed. That happens. That calls for Plan B: perhaps a ground attack, perhaps a new diplomatic initiative. But something must be done to break the gridlock. All that NATO could decide on was to do what they had done unsuccessfully for a month, and to add an oil embargo that should have been in place before the first bomb fell. The issue now is not what NATO will or won't do. We have the answer to that: it will do what it did yesterday in the hope that what failed before will succeed now. Since the multinational entity is paralyzed, it follows that sovereign states will step in. The United States and Britain may well mount an invasion of Kosovo. If they do, it will be as it was in Iraq: a coalition built as needed, bypassing Brussels. The Germans and Italians may launch a diplomatic offensive with the Russians. If they do, it will be as Germans and Italians on behalf of their own national interests. NATO may or may not ratify the results of war and diplomacy. It will not be the front. NATO's operational failure is a deep blow to multinational entities and a reminder of the primacy of the nation-state. As much as Clinton wanted to justify his Balkans adventure under the guise of multilateralism, in the end he will have to justify it in terms of the American national interest. As much as Germany would like to cover its abandonment of a failed strategy with NATO sanction, it will try to make its peace with Russia because German national interest requires it. One of the odd outcomes of this marginal military enterprise is that is it is pushing the nation-state to the fore, almost by default. NATO was designed to cope with a predetermined threat in a predetermined way. The spectacle of NATO trying to execute a war against an unexpected enemy in an unplanned way should not surprise us. It was not built for this mission and the nation- states that constitute it will not permit it to act as a super- state. They will hold on to their sovereignty and will act in their national interest. Germany and Italy will not consent to a ground war simply because NATO planners suggest it. Nor will the United States agree to a cease-fire for that reason. Policy will be set between Bonn, Rome, Washington and London. Brussels and Mons must be bypassed if anything is to be achieved. Whatever the outcome of the Kosovo affair, statesmen will think twice before trying to use NATO's machinery to wage unanticipated wars. We are approaching a peace agreement that will occur in spite of NATO's machinery and not because of it.
svet.99 alien,
Daily Telegraph ISSUE 1437 Sunday 2 May 1999 We are bandits guilty of murder By Harold Pinter THE Nato war is a bandit action, committed with no serious consideration of the consequences, confused, ill thought, miscalculated, an act of deplorable machismo. Yet, according to opinion polls most British people support this war, believing we may have a moral duty to intervene and the moral authority to do so. What is moral authority? Where does it come from? How do you achieve it? Who bestows it upon you? How do you persuade others that you possess it? You don't. You don't have to bother. What you have is power. Bombs and power. And that's your moral authority. Until the West started negotiating with the Kosovo Liberation Army, thus bestowing moral authority on its uprising, the number of people who died in Kosovo through political violence was fewer than in the preceding decade in Northern Ireland. Think about that. The British populace and media have accepted 40 days of bombing in this, the biggest conflagration since the Second World War, with surprisingly few questions. Images of the real and horrible plight of the Kosovo Albanians produce an emotional upsurge whereby we feel right to intervene, and that somehow contributions to Kosovo appeals and support for bombing have a moral equivalence. Not enough questions are asked of the politicians, spin doctors and Nato commanders and of what they knew. They knew that when the bombing began, immediate and major ethical cleansing by Serbian paramilitaries was likely to occur as part of a planned operation. Intelligence reports showed the cleansing was coming but Nato leaders claim they had no idea it would be on such a scale. They did not need spy satellites to learn that as long ago as October, when Nato first threatened bombing Serbia, Vojislav Seselj, the loathsome vice-president and suspected war criminal, promised in parliament that as soon as the first Nato bomb dropped "all the Albanians would vanish from Kosovo". Contrary to the usual accusations, President Milosevic is not an all-powerful tyrant. He managed to stay in power only after losing popular electoral support by making a pact with opposition hardmen such as Seselj. Cleansing Kosovo in the event of a Nato attack was the likely price of the deal with Seselj. Bomb-happy Nato began hurling weapons, and hundreds of Kosovar refugees, televisual victims, spewed through border posts and on to our screens. Less than half of British people polled in surveys had supported bombing when it began. But now Blair and his war party had a war that people would support. Nobody disputes that the Kosovar Albanians were brutally expelled. Yet who asked whether the bombs were dropped responsibly (if bombs can be dropped responsibly)? Nato pinned the blame for the exodus solely on the Serbs and they were being cynical with the truth. A fundamentally inaccurate picture of Serbians has given rise to their being demonised. It is time to unmask the repeated distortions, disinformation and plain ignorance propagated by this Government with the effect of fostering public support for the war. Ministers gave the impression that Serbs were somehow "to blame" for being bombed because they supported Milosevic. Yet in the last election, in autumn 1996, Milosevic was defeated! The bonehead bombing by Nato of a people, as opposed to strictly military targets, had the consequence of enraging them and stifling opposition so that Milosevic strengthened his previously tenuous grip on power. The Government's mantra is: "We tell the truth. They lie." We are being spun and managed, and kept on message with the desperate assertion that this a replay of the Holocaust and Milosevic is Adolf Hitler. The trains on to which ethnic Albanians were forced did not lead to gas chambers but to Macedonia. I cannot see how you can compare "ethnic cleansing", which is essentially the expulsion of people from a given area, to the extermination of a race. But if you even question these assertions you run the risk of being called an appeaser or pro-Serb by Clare Short. Let us probe some of our lies, such as the one given in writing on April 12 to the International Federation of Journalists that Yugoslav television would not be bombed. Ten days later it was, with the loss of some two dozen lives. As Nato "always tells the truth", these civilians had no reason to expect to die. This was justified by the Nato spokesman, Jamie Shea, because Belgrade television displayed "tolerance for brutality". "Tolerance for brutality" - remember that phrase - remember it if this conflict continues to deepen, remember it if it lasts months or years. Tolerant Tony Blair shrugged off the deaths, there were no words of regret. Whatever one might say about Radio Television Serbia's ugly output, the Geneva Convention states quite clearly that only civilians directly involved in hostilities may be killed. The make-up girl who was killed wielded a powder compact, not a Kalashnikov. So we are guilty not only of lying but of murder, and also hypocrisy. We rightly condemned the killing of the journalist Slavko Curuvija, who wrote things that Milosevic did not like. But Nato killed Belgrade media workers for saying things that Nato doesn't like. It is not the point that Serbian paramilitaries have committed far more murders. In ignoring the United Nations and all customary guidelines of international law the "19 democratic nations" (as Nato wrongly calls itself) may claim the moral authority to intervene on humanitarian grounds if their own credentials are beyond question. Let us cite the record of a Nato member, democratic Turkey: 1.4 million Kurds cleansed in a repression far worse than Kosovo, including air bombardment of its own citizens. Furthermore, I will reveal in a television programme on Tuesday how the Clinton Administration aided ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslavia in 1995. If you are going to start a war it is a good idea to have a war aim. Our media accept each different pronouncement of "why we bomb" with sleepy equanimity. At first our bombers went to "prevent a humanitarian catastrophe" and enforce the Rambouillet agreement from several miles up. When the humanitarian catastrophe duly came, the non-compliance of Milosevic meant Rambouillet was tossed aside. It would be amusing, if it were not so depressing, to trace, for example, the shifting position on what kind of peace force we want. As cruise missiles continued exploding to no avail, Robin Cook, the Foreign Secretary, began to drop the stipulation that it should be a Nato or "Nato-led" force. Then, when Russian diplomacy edged towards the notion of a truly international peace force, this prospect was duly rejected and the "Nato led force" idea crept back into play. On another front, Clinton declared that the arrest and indictment of Milosevic as a war criminal is a stated aim. Soon after, Robin Cook and Madeleine Albright, the US Secretary of State, declared on Breakfast with Frost that justice, in the shape of arraigning Milosevic, would be a nice by-product but is not a war aim. Is it about getting the Kosovo Albanians back? No air war has ever worked without a ground assault, nor - if anything were left of Kosovo after a ground war - would a Nato protectorate be likely to help ethnic Albanians return. In nearby Bosnia, despite the presence of tens of thousands of Nato troops, only 78,000 of the 1.2 million people displaced by the war have been able to return to their homes. These are the kind of facts we need to be thinking about. This is how we will come to understand that Tony Blair is leading us in a sanctimonious crusade that bestows a sheen of moral purpose but is fundamentally hollow. If we are not to be guilty of hypocrisy by tackling only Milosevic, we risk a permanent state of global war. Messrs Blair and Clinton will need to continue like humanitarian sharks, constantly swimming and gobbling up nasty little minnows as and when they decree. But no bigger fish like Turkey or China, please! Then we might really start having to look at ourselves. Harold Pinter and Stuart Urban, the film-maker, have made the first programme for British television arguing resolutely against the war. Counterblast is on Tuesday, BBC2, 7.30pm
svet.100 alien, -> #94, praktica
[] Ovako, ne bi bilo lose kada bi napisali sto vise uporednih i [] ironicnih, kratkih (tj. razumljivih celome svetu), recenica Evo nečeg drugačijeg šta sam pisao. Radi se o dve poruke pisane iz kvazineutralnog ;) ugla: The rebbeling ethnic Albanians on Kosovo never tried to make their country (Serbia, which is theirs as much as other Serbians') better for them, they did not vote against Milosevic (so they gave him power for free) and they never ever tried any reasonable democratic and realy peacefull method of changing conditions they live in. Instead of that, they helped every single step toward making things worse - just because that is the only way of getting independence. For what? Will they live better? No, but some of their leaders will become "fathers of the nation", some of their clans will get more money and their international drug trading will be easier. They participated in making mess and now they are crying for help! Their leaders are cheering that peoples present misfortune since it's helping "their cause". I won't be so cruel to say that they should feel the whip of their country, but I am sure that NATO should not fight for their independence! NATO assaults are destroying lives of both ethnic Serbs and ethnic Albanians, and lives of all of us who are not ethnic Serbs or Albanians. NATO assaults are destroying the efforts of all of us who shared pro-West and pro-American feelings and thougths. I am embarassed by your lack of sense that you are doing wrong. I do know what is happening and I can not explain myself why do you willfully make things worse rather than better. You are spending enourmous amounts of money on destruction instead of creation. That sum of money could buy eternal brotherhood between Serbs and Albanians! Do you realy beleave that you are destroying The Evil... or is it The Evil who destroys? I thought these kind of things can happen only in movies. You've let blood on your hands! Where are your eyes? There are no words that can explain the sorrow of Serbians who loved USA. I feel betrayed.
svet.101 madamov,
Izvinjavam se, izgubio sam broj originalane poruke, a nemam vremena da ga tražim: > MiG-29 downed in dogfight > > During the course of the overnight attacks, a U.S. F-16 shot down a > Yugoslav MiG-29 fighter near the Yugoslav-Bosnian border, the Pentagon > said. > > Pentagon sources said the MiG-29 approached to challenge the F-16 and > was shot down. The U.S. plane was unharmed. Istina je, pre neki dan sam nešto pomagao oko kompjutera jednom majoru-pilotu koji se u poslednje vreme bavi "zemaljskim radom" i koji mi je ovo potvrdio, poginuo je njegov klasić, ali je, kako je on rekao, rezultat u tom dog fightu bio 1-1, tj. oboren je jedan F-16, pa tek onda dvaes'devetka. Inače, odnos u borbi je bio 6:1, zna se u čiju korist. Na moje pitanje zašto se momci šalju da uludo ginu, odgovorio je da se naređenja slušaju.
svet.102 aandric, -> #100, alien
AA> Evo nečeg drugačijeg šta sam pisao. Radi se o dve poruke AA> pisane iz kvazineutralnog ;) ugla: Imas par gresaka u tekstu, pa ne bi bilo lose da ukoliko saljes u inostranstvo bude potpuno ispravno gramaticki i leksicki.
svet.103 praktica,
Evo kako Amerikanci uce Geografiju.......C C C C, svasta :) kosovo.gif
svet.104 praktica,
Americka karta Jugoslavije, tj. skinuta sa Americkog sajta jugo.jpg
svet.105 alien, -> #102, aandric
[] Imas par gresaka u tekstu, pa ne bi bilo lose da ukoliko saljes u [] inostranstvo bude potpuno ispravno gramaticki i leksicki. Bio bih zahvalan ako bi mi poslao ispravke na mail ili ovde ako misliš da su bitne za javnost.
svet.106 aandric, -> #105, alien
>ŠĆ Imas par gresaka u tekstu, pa ne bi bilo lose da ukoliko saljes u >ŠĆ inostranstvo bude potpuno ispravno gramaticki i leksicki. > > Bio bih zahvalan ako bi mi poslao ispravke na mail ili ovde ako >misliš da su bitne za javnost. Ovo su ti samo leksicke greske, nisam se upustao detaljno u gramatiku: 1) rebbeling = rebelling 2) realy = really (x2) 3) thougths = thoughts 4) embarassed = embarrassed 5) enourmous = enormous 6) peacefull = peaceful 7) beleave = believe 8) Serbians = Serbs (Ne postoji rec Serbians, Serbian oznacava srpski(jezik), a Srbi se kaze Serbs) Ne valja recenica "Serbia which is theirs as much as other Serbians'"