razno.206djino,
-> #202, inferno+| Zar prelazak iz oblika u oblik mora biti trenutan da bi se
+| ti uverio? :)
Pa ne mora, ali bih voleo da ima neki dokaz za tu tvrdnju
o transformaciji koju smo doživeli..
Na kraju krajeva, mora da je to bilo jako zanimljivo..
Recimo, onaj ko je postao čovek sretne nekoga ko to još nije postao
pa krene da ga bodri.. 'ukapiraj, ukapiraj, to nisi ti..' ;)
Ko zna, možda su bile grupice koje su pevale 'ajmo, ajde, svi u napad' ;)
Pa onda sexualne kombinacije.. ;)
Bajdvej, koje je bilo prvo živo biće koje je nastalo?
Ako neko može hronološki da mi sortira..
razno.207djino,
-> #203, morkin+|Ne mogu, jer nisam stručnjak za to. Kad bi počeo da ti to objašnjavam, ti bi
+| se odmah uhvatio za grešku koju bi ja napravio i tako bi obarao čitavu
+| teoriju evolucije. Na kraju krajeva, sigurno si je učio u školi.
Veruješ dakle u nešto što ne možeš da mi objasniš?
A što se škole tiče, jeste, učio sam, samo sam evoluirao od tada.. ;)
Meni to i jeste priča za decu..
+| Zato jer nisam čuo za logičnije rešenje. Ako ti imaš, izvoli.
Pa nemam šta da ti kažem, meni to nije najlogičnije rešenje jer ima
mnogo pitanja na kojih nema odgovora, pogotovu onih ključnih.
Sa druge strane, toliko je ispravljana da će uskoro potpuno
izgubiti svoju osnovu.
+| Hoće, samo je proces spor. Majmuni koriste "alate" za razbijanje nekih
+| plodova. Daj im milion godina, ukapiraće kako da založe vatru i peku meso.
A kako to nismo svi prošli tu fazu?
Mislim, MI kao bivši majmuni, dakle braća nam još nisu svesna
da su nam braća a mi smo toga svesni (mi, sada kao ljudi).
Što im ne pokažemo kako da se 'pokriju, da založe vatru, peku meso'..?
Onomad smo mogli sami da ukapiramo a sada Oni (bivši mi) ne mogu
ni sa asistencijom..
+| Mi se transformišemo, samo te promene nisu očigledne. Da li si primetio da
+| generacijama ljudi postaju u proseku sve višlji i višlji?
Jeste, primetio sam..
Jednog dana ćemo glavom kroz atmosferu sa stopalama na zemlji.. ;)
Evolucija ;)
OK, znam, ne moraš/te da se zalećete.. to je proces koji traje.. ;)
+| Da sad ljudi odu na X planetu i da odvojeno živimo milion godina, verovatno
+| bi se razlikovali usled dejstva gravitacije, promenjenog načina ishrane,
+| drugačijeg sunca...
Ne, po izgledu se sigurno ne bi razlikovali.
+| >> Jednostavno - dobili smo na "Bingu".
+|
+| > Dobili jesmo, samo, svaka lutrija ima darodavca.. ;)
+|
+| Izvrnuo si ono što sam hteo da kažem. Citirao si samo poslednju rečenicu
+| jer si mogao da je izokreneš. Hteo sam da naglasim da sve teorije o tome
+| kako je mala verovatnoća da se tako nešto desi padaju u vodu.
Ništa ja nisam izokrenuo, niti sam imao nameru, i dalje mislim tako.
razno.208lexus,
-> #206, djino=> Recimo, onaj ko je postao čovek sretne nekoga ko to još nije
=> postao pa krene da ga bodri.. 'ukapiraj, ukapiraj, to nisi
=> ti..' ;)
Ta tvoja teorija ima samo jednu manu, bilo je potrebno smisliti
jezik da bi se reklo "ukapiraj, ukapiraj..."
A i nisu se previše trudili da ih nagovore da se transformišu,
već su ih kao, slabije, ubijali...
razno.209lexus,
-> #207, djino=> Onomad smo mogli sami da ukapiramo a sada Oni (bivši mi) ne
=> mogu ni sa asistencijom..
Pojedinačni primerci su naučili...
=> OK, znam, ne moraš/te da se zalećete.. to je proces koji
=> traje.. ;)
Ti misliš da ljudi u proseku nisu porasli?
=> Ne, po izgledu se sigurno ne bi razlikovali.
Jesi li video slike iz Hirošime i Nagasakija? Razmisli malo...
razno.210lexus,
-> #204, djino=> Pa eto, slučajno nastali, slučajno nestali..
Još ima vremena...
To što smo mi sada ovde ne znači da ćemo večno biti...
A opet, ne mora da znači ni da nećemo.
razno.211djino,
-> #208, lexus+| Ta tvoja teorija ima samo jednu manu, bilo je potrebno smisliti
+| jezik da bi se reklo "ukapiraj, ukapiraj..."
Jel'?
Ja rek'o na italijanskom pričali..
Valjda ti je jasno i po tekstu 'ukapiraj, ukapiraj..' i 'ajmo,ajde..'
da je šala u pitanju..
Pa još mi imputiraš da je to nekakva moja teorija a znaš da mislim
da bilo kakve transformacije uopšte nije ni bilo.
Znaš, lepo je praviti se pametan, samo je mnogo gore ispasti glup..
Ne bih ovu raspravu da vodim tim putem ali gledaj da očigledne šale
odvojiš od ozbiljnih stvari..
razno.212djino,
-> #209, lexus+| Pojedinačni primerci su naučili...
Ali, u kojoj tački kapiranja nekih stvari vidiš prekretnicu
koja vodi na put transformisanja?
+| Ti misliš da ljudi u proseku nisu porasli?
Vidim da i današnje klinkice imaju sa čime da se isprse ;)
Jedino ne vidim kakve to veze ima sa nastankom, tj. sa drastičnim
menjanjem lobanje i slično..
+| Jesi li video slike iz Hirošime i Nagasakija? Razmisli malo...
Pričamo o životu u takvim uslovima..
Mi pod takvim okolnostima ne bi smo mogli uopšte da postojimo..
Da, promenili bi oblik ali do uništenja i to vrlo brzo..
To nije proces koji traje.. ;)
razno.213djino,
-> #210, lexus+| Još ima vremena...
+| To što smo mi sada ovde ne znači da ćemo večno biti...
+| A opet, ne mora da znači ni da nećemo.
Moramo prvo da shvatimo kako sve ovo funkcioniše, ceo svemir..
Trenutna naša logika nema rešenje niti može da prihvati bilo šta
jer uvek imamo spremno pitanje - A kako je ON/ONI/TO onda nastao..
Kada bi se meni sada ukazalo nešto (bog recimo) ne bi mu verovao
da je on Prvi.. uvek bi mislio da ima još nekog iznad njega ;)
Ma mnogo gadan problem.. ;)
razno.214dr.iivan,
-> #205, djino>+ | Sve se zasniva na odredjenom principu.Samo sto mi (jos)
>+ ne znamo | sve principe.
>
> Pa vidis, u tome je problem, samo bi onda trebalo u skolama
> da se uci kako je zivot mogao nastati i na neki drugi nacin.
> Da se ima dokaza kako nas neko nije napravio jos bih i razumeo,
> ovako, nagadjati na osnovu ljudski najblize logike nema
> smisla.. ;)
Ali, opet ponavljam, na osnovu tih pretpostavki je izmisljeno
dosta stvari, koje funkcionisu. Cim funkcionisu, znaci da je tacna
pretpostavka.
>+ | Kada pogledas, do vecine principa smo dosli pod
>+ pretpostavkom da | je svet nastao onim praskom ili kako je
>+ to vec islo. Uglavnom, | mislim na opsteprihvacenu teoriju.
>+ Na osnovu prvog saznatog | principa smo dosli do saznanja
>+ drugog i tako redom. Kasnije | smo i samo poceli da
>+ zakljucujemo nesto i pravimo teorije na | osnovu nekih
>+ principa, koje smo pokusavali da dokazemo preko |
>+ experimenata, pa smo mnoge stvari i 'izmislili'. Da li je sve
>+ | to lazno sto smo izmislili, posto tvrdis da taj osnovni
>+ princip | iliti teorija nije tacan ?!
>
> Sve je to u redu, ali ne vidim sta smo mi to 'izmislili'
> zahvaljujuci toj teoriji, probaj da budes konkretan..
Pa recimo ovako. Ne mogu sada da nadjem neki konkretniji primer,
ali se sve ustvari svodi na to. Nismo nista izmislili na osnovu
te teorije, ali smo dosta izmislili na osnovu neke druge, sto se
posle ispostavilo kao tacno. Princip je isti.
Tesla je dosta experimenata otkrio preko nekih pretpostavki.
Nije mogao znati da li su one tacne ili nisu, ali je pokusao da
na osnovu njih izmisli nesto novo. Posto je to izmislio, i to radi,
iz toga sledi da je pretpostavka tacna. Isto tako je neko pretpostavio
da je covek nastao od majmuna i na osnovu toga zakljucio da je i
neka ptica nastala od neke pre nje. Kasnije se pronadju dokazi da
je ta ptica stvarno nastala od one tamo i zakljuci se da je tako
nastao i covek.
Sve ovo tako labavo zvuci, ali kada nadjem neki dosta konkretniji
primer, javicu ti. Ipak se nadam da ti je malo jasnije sta sam hteo
da kazem.
razno.215vdjole,
-> #189, djino> a da se proces vrti u krug dok kombinacija ne uspe
> nije u skladu sa temeljima teorije..
Hm, to da se OGROMAN broj kombinacija vrti u krug i da samo neke uspeju
upravo JESTE u osnovi teorije evolucije (ako si na nju mislio).
razno.216zeljkoj,
-> #206, djino> Recimo, onaj ko je postao čovek sretne nekoga ko to još nije
> postao pa krene da ga bodri.. 'ukapiraj, ukapiraj, to nisi
> ti..' ;)
Da li treba još jednom da se ponovi da je to proces koji je trajao milionima
godina (i još traje). Razlike koje su mogle nastati za vreme jednog ljudskog
(majmunskog :) veka su neprimetne, tako da nisu mogli istovremeno da
postoje oni koji su 'još majmuni' i oni koji su 'već ljudi'.
razno.217morkin,
-> #207, djino> Veruješ dakle u nešto što ne možeš da mi objasniš?
> A što se škole tiče, jeste, učio sam, samo sam evoluirao od tada.. ;)
> Meni to i jeste priča za decu..
Da li veruješ da avion leti? Ako veruješ, objasni kako leti.
Ja sam studirao vazduhoplovstvo i to mogu da objasnim. Da sam studirao
biologiju, verovatno bi mogao da objasnim teoriju evolucije. Jednostavno,
jedan čovek ne može da zna sve. Hoću da kažem da svi (pa i ti) verujemo u neke
stvari koje ne možemo da objasnimo, bar ne 100%.
> Pa nemam šta da ti kažem, meni to nije najlogičnije rešenje jer ima
> mnogo pitanja na kojih nema odgovora, pogotovu onih ključnih.
Rekao si da to nije najlogičnije rešenje. Odatle sledi da postoji neko
logičnije. Izvoli podeli ga sa nama.
> +| Hoće, samo je proces spor. Majmuni koriste "alate" za razbijanje nekih
> +| plodova. Daj im milion godina, ukapiraće kako da založe vatru i peku
> meso.
>
> A kako to nismo svi prošli tu fazu?
Jesmo.
> Što im ne pokažemo kako da se 'pokriju, da založe vatru, peku meso'..?
> Onomad smo mogli sami da ukapiramo a sada Oni (bivši mi) ne mogu
> ni sa asistencijom..
I nije fora u loženju vatre, fora je u majmunima.
Uzmi neku jedinicu za merenje pameti (mada je pamet ovde diskutabilan pojam) -
neka je majmun pametan 100. Njegovi potomci (neka ih bude petorica) neka su
pametni 102, 101, 100, 99 i 98. Od tih pet najveće šanse da crknu imaju
najgluplji. Neka prežive trojica - ta trojica imaće sinove koji će biti još
pametniji.
Loženje vatre i njena upotreba zahteva pamet od 1.000.000. Tako majmuni neće
još dugo biti sposobni da lože vatru.
> +| Da sad ljudi odu na X planetu i da odvojeno živimo milion godina,
> verovatno +| bi se razlikovali usled dejstva gravitacije, promenjenog
> načina ishrane, +| drugačijeg sunca...
> Ne, po izgledu se sigurno ne bi razlikovali.
A zašto ne bi? Daj neki argument.
razno.218djino,
-> #215, vdjole+| Hm, to da se OGROMAN broj kombinacija vrti u krug i da samo neke uspeju
+| upravo JESTE u osnovi teorije evolucije (ako si na nju mislio).
Aha, a kako to da sva živa bića koja mogu da se kreću imaju po dva oka?
Najoptimalnije rešenje? ;)
razno.219djino,
-> #216, zeljkoj+| Da li treba još jednom da se ponovi da je to proces koji je trajao
+| milionima godina (i još traje). Razlike koje su mogle nastati za vreme
+| jednog ljudskog (majmunskog :) veka su neprimetne, tako da nisu mogli
+| istovremeno da postoje oni koji su 'još majmuni' i oni koji su 'već ljudi'.
===========
Kako brate? ;)
Otidi do zoo vrta da vidiš koji primerak ;)
Ili si znao za to (predpostavljam) ali misliš da su oni ipak
imali mnogo glupe pretke koji nisu ukapirali kad i ostali?
razno.220djino,
-> #217, morkin+| Da li veruješ da avion leti? Ako veruješ, objasni kako leti.
Verujem jer imam solidan dokaz, ne možeš tako gledati na stvari.
Veruješ li da sunce postoji? Ako veruješ, objasni..
+| Rekao si da to nije najlogičnije rešenje. Odatle sledi da postoji neko
+| logičnije. Izvoli podeli ga sa nama.
Pa rekao sam već da sam kreacionista.. ;)
Dal' od božije ruke ili neke druge.. to ne znam..
+| Loženje vatre i njena upotreba zahteva pamet od 1.000.000. Tako majmuni
+| neće još dugo biti sposobni da lože vatru.
A kako to da još ima ostataka majmuna?
Mislim, od tog prelaza pa do danas..
+| > +| Da sad ljudi odu na X planetu i da odvojeno živimo milion godina,
+| > verovatno +| bi se razlikovali usled dejstva gravitacije, promenjenog
+| > načina ishrane, +| drugačijeg sunca...
+|
+| > Ne, po izgledu se sigurno ne bi razlikovali.
+|
+| A zašto ne bi? Daj neki argument.
Ne vidim kakvu Ti promenu oblika zamisljaš pod stavkama koje si naveo..
Ako misliš na ten, težinu i ostalu 'šminku'.. mislim da nisi ozbiljan :)
Gravitacija ne znam kako bi uticala ali..
Što porediš neku drugu planetu kad mi pričamo o našoj?
I na kraju, pričamo o prelazu iz životinje u čoveka a ne čovek u čoveka.
razno.221lexus,
-> #211, djino=> Valjda ti je jasno i po tekstu 'ukapiraj, ukapiraj..' i
=> 'ajmo,ajde..' da je šala u pitanju..
Meni je jasno, problem je samo što ti ne možeš da razdvojiš
šalu od zbilje. I to već treći put u ovoj raspravi...
=> Znaš, lepo je praviti se pametan, samo je mnogo gore ispasti
=> glup..
Drago mi je da si to shvatio, ali morao si na to ranije da misliš.
razno.222lexus,
-> #213, djino=> Kada bi se meni sada ukazalo nešto (bog recimo) ne bi mu
=> verovao da je on Prvi.. uvek bi mislio da ima još nekog iznad
=> njega ;)
A zašto život na zemlji ne bi bio prvi ;)
razno.223lexus,
-> #219, djino=> Ili si znao za to (predpostavljam) ali misliš da su oni ipak
=> imali mnogo glupe pretke koji nisu ukapirali kad i ostali?
Učiš se...
razno.224vetman,
-> #216, zeljkoj>> Recimo, onaj ko je postao čovek sretne nekoga ko to još nije
>> postao pa krene da ga bodri.. 'ukapiraj, ukapiraj, to nisi
>> ti..' ;)
Duhoviti d(j)ino :>
Ali za tvoju informaciju nije čovek nastao od majmuna,
već su današnji majmuni i homo-sapiens nastali da tako
kažemo od zajedničkog pretka koji je pa izumro iliti ga
više nema (ima tu još detalja koji baš nemogu u priču da
stanu ...)
Dakle i majmun (ima ih dosta raličitih) je od tog stadijuma
evoluirao, a i čovek (a i njih ima različitih: žutih, crnih,
ružičastih, kosookih, sa izbačenom vilicom ;) ...)
Posledice su očigledne sada posle ko zna koliko miliona
godina.
> A kako to da još ima ostataka majmuna?
> Mislim, od tog prelaza pa do danas..
Ja tebi odgovoriti :>
ali ti ne hteti svatiti. Tako ja i majmunima govoriti kako
vatra dobra za njih, dobro ložiti vatra i peći meso ali oni
ne hteti shvatiti oni i dalje semo lizati banana :)
razno.225djino,
-> #221, lexus+| Meni je jasno, problem je samo što ti ne možeš da razdvojiš
+| šalu od zbilje. I to već treći put u ovoj raspravi...
Ti k'o da sam sa sobom pričas ;)
+| => Znaš, lepo je praviti se pametan, samo je mnogo gore ispasti
+| => glup..
+|
+| Drago mi je da si to shvatio, ali morao si na to ranije da misliš.
Kad ranije?
Nisam video potrebu za tim ranije, činio si se pametnijim..
Sve u svemu, drago mi je da postoji želja za korekcijom.
Nije loše, vrlo dobro rekao bih..
razno.226djino,
-> #222, lexus+| A zašto život na zemlji ne bi bio prvi ;)
Pa može, samo još da vidimo kako se to dogodilo.. ;)
razno.227djino,
-> #223, lexus+| => Ili si znao za to (predpostavljam) ali misliš da su oni ipak
+| => imali mnogo glupe pretke koji nisu ukapirali kad i ostali?
+|
+| Učiš se...
Ili ti nemaš odgovor..
razno.228firus,
-> #218, djino> Aha, a kako to da sva živa bića koja mogu da se kreću imaju po
> dva oka? Najoptimalnije rešenje? ;)
Pauci imaju daleko više od para očiju (4-6 pari očiju) pa
opet mogu da se kreću. Insekti sem para složenih očiju imaju bar
još par prostih očiju i sl. ... Takodje, medju insektima postoji
puno onih koji su ili potpuno slepi ili čak uopšte nemaju oči,
a daleko od toga da su nepokretni. Gliste se takodje kreću.
Sve u svemu, tvoje tvrdjenje jednostavno ne stoji.
BTW, na latinskom je optimus (-a,-um) superlativ prideva
bonus (-a,-um). Narečeni pozitiv znači dobar, tako da pridev
najoptimalniji može da predstavlja samo čist pleonazam (a možda
si ti zapravo želeo da kažeš najbolje medju najboljim rešenjima ;).
Analogno, nemamo ni najpesimističkije rešenje već samo pesimističko
(ili kako bi neki rekli, pesimalno - igra reči na optimalno).
razno.229lexus,
-> #225, djino=> +| => Znaš, lepo je praviti se pametan, samo je mnogo gore
=> +| => ispasti glup..
=>
=> +| Drago mi je da si to shvatio, ali morao si na to ranije da
=> +| misliš.
=>
=> Nisam video potrebu za tim ranije, činio si se pametnijim..
=> Sve u svemu, drago mi je da postoji želja za korekcijom.
=> Nije loše, vrlo dobro rekao bih..
Drago mi je što sam ti se činio pametnijim, ali, zaista pametan
čovek se uvek kritički odnosi prema svojoj pameti, tako da i ja
to činim... A budući da sam pobornik teorije evolucije, potpuno
je jasno da želim da ispravljam svoje greške, pošto time vršim
ličnu evoluciju... ;)
Medjutim, "Drago mi je da si to shvatio..." deo se u potpunosti
odnosio na tebe... Dakle, morao si na to da misliš, pre nego što
si ispao glup. ;> Čudi me da nisi shvatio poentu... Mada, možda
i ne bi trebalo da me čudi ;>
Ako hoćeš da nastavimo ovu granu rasprave, tj. lično prepucavanje,
prebaci je u mail... Mada tamo nije zanimljivo ;)
A sada ću biti toliko slobodan da se izvinim cenjenom auditorijumu
na šumu koji sam ovom porukom proizveo, i da obećam da se to neće
dešavati u sledećih par dana ;)
razno.230lexus,
-> #227, djino=> Ili ti nemaš odgovor..
Pa i nisi pitao mene, nego supersa...
razno.231n.ceh,
-> #196, djino Dj> A zbog cega smo morali da opstanemo?
Ne znam. Ali činjenica je da smo opstali, i ja verujem da je to,
ako ne isključivo, onda bar delimično zato što smo baš takvi kakvi smo.
Ceh.
razno.232djino,
-> #229, lexus+| Medjutim, "Drago mi je da si to shvatio..." deo se u potpunosti
+| odnosio na tebe... Dakle, morao si na to da misliš, pre nego što
+| si ispao glup. ;> Čudi me da nisi shvatio poentu... Mada, možda
+| i ne bi trebalo da me čudi ;>
Sigurno da se odnosilo na mene, to je jasno, samo mi nije jasno
kako ne vidiš da se onaj drugi deo oko pameti odnosio na tebe.. ;)
Nema šta da te čudi kako ja nisam shvatio poentu, shvatio sam ja poentu
samo me sada Ne čudi kako je ti nisi shvatio.. ;)
+| Ako hoćeš da nastavimo ovu granu rasprave, tj. lično prepucavanje,
+| prebaci je u mail... Mada tamo nije zanimljivo ;)
Trebao si da daš primer tako što bih ovo pročitao u mailu ;)
razno.233djino,
-> #230, lexus+| Pa i nisi pitao mene, nego supersa...
Znači, kad treba da postaviš pitanje onda nisam pitao supersa,
da bi onda kada ti se odgovori, to koristio kao izgovor da ne odgovoriš
na pitanje koje sam zbog tvog uplitanja tebi uputio..
Pa što se onda mešaš? ;)
razno.234morkin,
-> #220, djino> A kako to da još ima ostataka majmuna?
> Mislim, od tog prelaza pa do danas..
Ovo nisam najbolje shvatio. Objasni malko opširnije. Kakvi "ostaci majmuna"?
> Što porediš neku drugu planetu kad mi pričamo o našoj?
Zato da bih ti pokazao kako mogu različiti životni uslovi da utiču na
formiranje živog bića kroz generacije.
> I na kraju, pričamo o prelazu iz životinje u čoveka a ne čovek u čoveka.
Tu grešiš, jer je čovek živo biće kao i životinja. Taj prelaz je bio vrlo,
vrlo lagan i postepen.
razno.235djino,
-> #234, morkin+| > A kako to da još ima ostataka majmuna?
+| > Mislim, od tog prelaza pa do danas..
+|
+|Ovo nisam najbolje shvatio. Objasni malko opširnije. Kakvi "ostaci majmuna"?
Pa postoje i danas, od prelaza je prošlo ali zaista mnogo vremena..
Pitam.. šta čekaju?
Objašnjenje da je to dug proces u ovom slučaju ne stoji na mestu jer
bi morali da vidimo makar mali nagoveštaj odvijanja procesa u tom pravcu.
Da ne ulazim u to da su imali i imaju danas nekoga da ih nauči..
+| Zato da bih ti pokazao kako mogu različiti životni uslovi da utiču na
+| formiranje živog bića kroz generacije.
Pa znam ali sve to što pričaš je samo jedna predpostavka, zar ne?
To kako bi mi opstali pod X uslovima na X planeti je nebitno za
našu priču, pogotovu što ne možemo to da dokažemo ni na našoj planeti
i pod našim uslovima..
+| > I na kraju, pričamo o prelazu iz životinje u čoveka a ne čovek u čoveka.
+|
+| Tu grešiš, jer je čovek živo biće kao i životinja. Taj prelaz je bio vrlo,
+| vrlo lagan i postepen.
Čovek jeste živo biće kao i životinja ali je isto samo po tome što je živo.
Ili misliš da niko od nas ne poštuje znak na kome piše..
..zabranjen ulaz životinjama.
Ili da nema dobrovoljaca za životinjski vrt?
A možda uopšte i ne misliš da smo sad životinje?
Ne razumem onda gde grešim..
Moraš da shvatiš da je to ogromna razlika..
To je prelaz iz nesvesnog u svesno..
To ti je kao kad bi probao da poteraš WinNT na ZX spectrumu.
Nije kompatibilno..
btw, u Engleskoj je sada velika buka oko ludih krava..
Nešto se sada razmišljam..
Možda su ukapirale da niko ne bi trebao da ih muze.. ;)
Naravno, za krave bi pomislio da nikad ne bi bile u stanju to da urade,
ali pošto majmuni liče na čoveka onda je to druga stvar..
Znam, znam, to je bila neka specijalna vrsta majmuna.. ;)
..kojih više nema, znam.. ali našli smo neke lobanje..
Ma to je to.. ;)
A šta i kako, to nema veze..
razno.236lexus,
-> #233, djino=> Znači, kad treba da postaviš pitanje onda nisam pitao supersa,
Pa i nisam postavio pitanje, konstatovao sam da si počeo da učiš...
razno.237lexus,
-> #232, djino=> Sigurno da se odnosilo na mene, to je jasno, samo mi nije
=> jasno kako ne vidiš da se onaj drugi deo oko pameti odnosio na
=> tebe.. ;)
Meni nije jasno, kako to da tebi nije jasno, da je meni jasno, ali
da sam iskoristio blagodeti svog okruženja, te sam iskoristio metodu
popularnog naziva: "Izvlačenje Citata iz Konteksta". ;)
=> Trebao si da daš primer tako što bih ovo pročitao u mailu ;)
Koliko godina imaš?
razno.238supers,
-> #230, lexus>> => Ili ti nemaš odgovor..
>>
>> Pa i nisi pitao mene, nego supersa...
A-a. Cccc. Ovde nešto ne štima sa referencama, u diskusiji nisam učestvovao.
razno.239geronimo,
Zato ljudi i prave tolka sranja na Zemlji...jel su mnogo radoznali.
(izvinjavam se moderatoru na izrazu ali to je jedina adekvatna rec
za ovu raspravu koju vode)
razno.240djino,
-> #236, lexus+| Pa i nisam postavio pitanje, konstatovao sam da si počeo da učiš...
Jel'? ;)
Dakle, koliko se sećam to si konstatovao na moje pitanje -> da li to znači
da je razlog što danas majmuni postoje taj što su imali glupe pretke koji
nisu ukapirali kad i naši?
Ako tako misliš, a evidentno je da misliš, izem ti znanje.. ;)
Jedino što ja mogu da konstatujem je da Ti još nisi počeo da učiš..
razno.241djino,
-> #237, lexus+| => Trebao si da daš primer tako što bih ovo pročitao u mailu ;)
+|
+| Koliko godina imaš?
Kakve to veze ima sa onim što si citirao?
Meni je recimo sasvim jasno koliko ti imaš godina, nema potrebe
da te to pitam, niti me interesuje..
..ali polako, rekoh, nisi jos počeo da učiš.. ;)
Možda smo ipak stvarno nastali od majmuna.. ;)
nhf, ali zaista je vreme da ovo prekinemo, ako misliš da ima potrebe
da nastavimo deo koji nema veze sa evolucijom, ti kreni na mail..
razno.242dr.iivan,
-> #241, djino
Htedoh jos i ovo da ti kazem..
U prethodnim porukama si na konstataciju ostalih da imamo ruke i
noge i sl. rekao zasto bas ruke i noge, zasto nemamo krila.
Mogu da ti kazem da bi i u slucaju da imamo krila opet postavio
pitanje zasto bas krila tj. zasto nemamo ono sto recimo majmuni imaju,
a to su ruke i noge. Dakle, to vec nije (puno) pitanje evolucije tj.
zasto je bas ovako covek gradjen, vec vise covekova (tvoja) teznja da
se obori vec postojeca teorija ili mozda nesto drugo !?
razno.243morkin,
-> #235, djino> Pa postoje i danas, od prelaza je prošlo ali zaista mnogo vremena..
> Pitam.. šta čekaju?
Ne čekaju ništa. Oni i dalje evoluiraju i postaju sve pametniji i pametniji.
Mi postojimo vrlo kratko vreme i za to vreme nismo bili u stanju da opišemo i
uočimo promene na životinjama. Da je Brem živeo pre 10000 godina, možda bi i
utvrdili neke razlike. Poenta je u tome što ljudi nisu znali da pišu tada, a i
imali su preča posla nego da opisuju i crtaju životinje.
> Objašnjenje da je to dug proces u ovom slučaju ne stoji na mestu jer
> bi morali da vidimo makar mali nagoveštaj odvijanja procesa u tom pravcu.
> Da ne ulazim u to da su imali i imaju danas nekoga da ih nauči..
Niko nikoga ne može da "nauči" već on to mora sam da shvati i to mora da bude
zapisano u njegov _genetski_ materijal. Hranjenjem golubova zimi (ti ih učiš
gde da nađu hranu i oni to brzo skapiraju, ali njihovi potomci to neće znati
ako ih opet to neko ne nauči). Da li si svestan razlike između učenja i
"zapisa" u genima? Ako ti, nekim čudom, naučiš majmuna da čita i piše, njegov
potomak neće biti ništa pametniji od njega.
> Pa znam ali sve to što pričaš je samo jedna predpostavka, zar ne?
> To kako bi mi opstali pod X uslovima na X planeti je nebitno za
> našu priču, pogotovu što ne možemo to da dokažemo ni na našoj planeti
> i pod našim uslovima..
To je vrlo bitno za našu priču jer govori o tome da se živa bića _menjaju_ i
prilagođavaju sredini.
Kako misliš da ne možemo da dokažemo na našoj planeti? Zašto kaktusi kojima ne
treba puno vode ne žive u džunglama? Zašto tropske biljke ne žive u pustinjama?
> Čovek jeste živo biće kao i životinja ali je isto samo po tome što je živo.
To _samo_ znači _sve_ izuzev svesti. To je jedina razlika između čoveka i
životinje, ali zato vrlo bitna. Ako nas je neko stvorio, zašto nas je napravio
tako glupo? Bolje bi bilo da smo od metala, da smo mnogo jači, itd. Zašto nas
onaj koji nas je pravio nije napravio malo bolje? Što nam je dao slepo crevo?
razno.244djino,
-> #242, dr.iivan+| Htedoh jos i ovo da ti kazem..
Reci slobodno sve što imaš..
+| Mogu da ti kazem da bi i u slucaju da imamo krila opet postavio
+| pitanje zasto bas krila tj. zasto nemamo ono sto recimo majmuni imaju,
+| a to su ruke i noge.
Možeš da mi kažeš da bih i u tom slučaju postavio pitanje..?
To je dokaz da postoji kolektivna svest.. ;)
Inače, to je bilo u sklopu pitanja - kako su ptice nastale..
+| Dakle, to vec nije (puno) pitanje evolucije tj.
+| zasto je bas ovako covek gradjen, vec vise covekova (tvoja) teznja da
+| se obori vec postojeca teorija ili mozda nesto drugo !?
Kako bih ja ovu tvoju težnju mogao da nazovem?
Težnjom da mi oboriš težnju?
Ako ja imam težnju da oborim Darvinovu teoriju to nije zbog
novca koje mi daje Džordž Soroš već zbog mog mišljenja.
Ti ako možeš reci gde grešim u toj mojoj težnji a predpostavke
šta bih radio kad bi imali ovo ili ono pusti za neku drugu priču.
razno.245lexus,
-> #241, djino=> +| => Trebao si da daš primer tako što bih ovo pročitao u
=> mailu ;) +|
=> +| Koliko godina imaš?
=>
=> Kakve to veze ima sa onim što si citirao?
Ima veze, ali me ne čudi što ne možeš da shvatiš... Ako si stariji
od mene, a još si i (bar u tvojim očima ;) daleko inteligentniji od
mene, logično je da ti meni daješ primer, a ne ja tebi.
Naravno, postoje situacije u kojima čak i Veliki Ti, možeš od malog
mene, nešto da naučiš... Ali, ovo definitivno nije takva situacija...
Ipak, Ti znaš da napišeš mail.
E sad, postavlja se pitanje zašto nećeš da napišeš mail, nego se
prepucavaš po konferenciji... Možda si već napisao mail, ali nisi
dobio odgovor, pa moraš u konferenciju? Možda imaš neke sitne ;)
komplekse, koje pokušavaš da izlečiš vredjajući ljude po Sezamu?
Možda zamišljaš, pošto si potomak vanzemaljaca, da letiš po
CyberSpace-u i pucaš laserskim pištoljem po zlim dizelima, lexusima
i zeljkojima dok njihova krv (Coca-Cola kod nekih ;) šiklja po istom?
Ili, pak, spremaš Zemljane na dolazak njihovih predaka, ali pošto ne
veruju u iste, ti ih sad preobraćuješ? A pošto si na Svetoj Misiji,
uopšte te ne zanima da jadne glistice nemaju dva oka, jer si ti uvek
u pravu, a čak i ako nisi, dovoljno je zamisliti da ono što ti smeta
ne postoji... (izbaci insekte, reče on ;)
razno.246lexus,
-> #240, djino=> Dakle, koliko se sećam to si konstatovao na moje pitanje -> da
=> li to znači da je razlog što danas majmuni postoje taj što su
=> imali glupe pretke koji nisu ukapirali kad i naši?
Konstatovao sam da si počeo da učiš, a ne da si se naučio...
=> Ako tako misliš, a evidentno je da misliš, izem ti znanje.. ;)
Jedino je evidentno da si ti užasno, ali užasno glup, a da si, uz to,
i jako bezobrazan...
Pošto zaista nemam vremena da se bakćem sa budalama, ostaviću te
da se svadjaš sa samim sobom (verujem da to često i radiš), a ja
ću te sa vremena na vreme obići, da vidim kako si :) A ako poželiš
da te češće obilazim, javi mi na mail da si naučio da čitaš ;)
razno.247inferno,
-> #218, djinoŮ│ ˙ Aha, a kako to da sva živa bića koja mogu da se kreću imaju po dva oka?
Ů│ ˙ Najoptimalnije rešenje? ;)
A muva? ;>
razno.248dbambi,
Evo kako je karikaturista Corax video preuzimanje " Studija B " od
strane novih gradskih vlasti. Objavljeno u današnjoj " Našoj Borbi "
Bambi
corax.gifrazno.249zeljkoj,
-> #245, lexus> i zeljkojima dok njihova krv (Coca-Cola kod nekih ;) šiklja po
Khm... ;)
razno.250crncic,
Ima li negde po Beogradu lepih kupaćih gaća, imate li ideja ?
razno.251ljubisha,
-> #809, nenad>nije pomoglo, i dalje se šalje, mislim čak i da si i ti jedan od
>redovnih "prilagača". Nekoliko slika je i obrisano, uključujući i
Aha, u zadnjih godinu dana celih 6 slika od kojih su 3 sa
Klaudijom Šifer, na jednoj je Sandra Bulok, jedna je crtana i
to iz doba Spectruma a jedna je blago pornografska gde se vidi
samo ono što se može videti i u drugom izdanju Gnjavnika. :)
>shvatio, problem u tome što je poslata montirana sliku sa nekom
>poznatom ličnošću.
Seti se slučaja sa slikom 'Dragana' i vremenom dok je Dejan
bio glavni.
>Ako te dobro shvatam, ti očekuješ da neko redovno skida sve te
>slike koje šaljete i onda nad njima vrši cenzuru kako se Sezam ne
>bi "spustio na nivo home made BBS-a"? Na žalost, niko nema toliko
Slike skidam po 'default-u' i obavestio sam vas. Ostalo nije
moj problem.
>vremena niti je to rešenje dobro. To bi bilo ekvivalentno
>situaciji da ljudi namerno šalju psovke, uvrede i druge
>neprimerene poruke u konferenciju, a da neko na sebe preuzme
>obavezu da ih redovno iščitava, briše svaku drugu-treću i tako u
>nedogled. Čak je to i blaža varijanta od ove situacije jer se
>čitanje svih poruka od strane moderatora podrazumeva.
Hej, nema problema što se mene tiče. Stavi se sao u situaciju
da ti na redakciju dođe čika u odelu sa akten tašnom i lupi na
sto tužbu zbog onakvih slika (baljezgarija neiživljenih klinaca
kojima su mama ili tata kupili kompjuter i uplatili pretplatu
- moja opaska :)).
>slike. Nije li bolje da sami učesnici u raspravi i "slanjima"
>pokažu malo odgovornosti i, da je tako nazovem, samokontrole i da
>do ovakvih situacija ne dolazi?
He! Ne očekujem odgovor na ovo jer nije moja stvar ali da li
je korisniku skrenuta pažnja na (zlo)delo?
>Međutim, pošto svakako postoji neki krug interesenata i za "robu
>široke potrošnje", zašto brate lepo ne osnujete grupu pa se
>menjajte i razgledajte do mile volje i bez kontrole i bez
...ili neka odu do najbližeg CD kluba i iznajme neki disk
sa pomenutom tematikom.
Zadržavam pravo na veto povodom slika glumica ili manekenki
jer toga nema na diskovima. Jedino ne preferiram foto montaže pa
makar bilo i moje omiljeno stvorenje.
razno.252ognjen,
-> #218, djino)-> Aha, a kako to da sva živa bića koja mogu da se kreću imaju
)-> po dva oka? Najoptimalnije rešenje? ;)
Jedna retka vrsta guštera ima 3 oka.
razno.253supers,
-> #3125, nenad>> Ne podmeći, Mmtosic je izbačen zbog drugih razloga,
>> on je pretio prijavama na radnom mestu ljudima koji su se izjašnjavali
>> protiv aktuelne vlasti, on je i pisao takve prijave.
Ovo prvi put čujem?
razno.254lexus,
-> #253, supers=>>> on je pretio prijavama na radnom mestu ljudima koji su se
=>>> izjašnjavali protiv aktuelne vlasti, on je i pisao takve
=> prijave.
=>
=> Ovo prvi put čujem?
Gle gle...
Izgleda da sam pogrešnu poruku objavio u vicevima ;)
razno.255dbambi,
Kad nema teme zakoni, može i ovde. Dakle...
Stigao mi je poziv od sudije za prekršaje :(. Nisam bio kod kuće u tom
trenutku, a niko od mojih ukućana (postupajući u skladu sa mojim
izričitim uputstvima :)) nije hteo da ga primi, pa ga je poštar vratio
u poštu. Na papiru koji je ostavio piše da će se na preuzimanje
pošiljke (dakle poziva) čekati pet dana, a da će zatim ona biti
vraćena pošiljaocu.
Pitanje: Ako ne preuzmem taj poziv u navedenom roku i on bude vraćen
pošiljaocu, kakve konsekvence snosim ? Da li se to tretira na isti
način kao i neodazivanje na poziv koji je uredno primljen i potpisan ?
Bambi
razno.256madamov,
-> #255, dbambi> Stigao mi je poziv od sudije za prekršaje :(. Nisam bio kod kuće u tom
> trenutku, a niko od mojih ukućana (postupajući u skladu sa mojim
> izričitim uputstvima :)) nije hteo da ga primi, pa ga je poštar vratio
> u poštu. Na papiru koji je ostavio piše da će se na preuzimanje
> pošiljke (dakle poziva) čekati pet dana, a da će zatim ona biti
> vraćena pošiljaocu.
>
> Pitanje: Ako ne preuzmem taj poziv u navedenom roku i on bude vraćen
> pošiljaocu, kakve konsekvence snosim ? Da li se to tretira na isti
> način kao i neodazivanje na poziv koji je uredno primljen i potpisan ?
>
Nemam isti slučaj, ali je poučna priča. Elem, jedne subote u oktobru prošle
godine primim ja rešenje o presudi (trebalo da platim kaznu), ali nisam hteo
iz inata zbog toga kako sam načinio prekršaj, krivicom policajca koji mi je
rekao da načinim prekršaj da bi me njegov kolega sačekao i napisao prijavu, ja
reših da odem kod svoje drugarice koja radi u sudu u Masarikovoj. Bio je
petak, rok za žalbe je osam dana, dakle sve je bilo u redu, tj. na vreme sam
podneo žalbu, ili kako se kaže - u zakonskom roku. Međutim, žalba mi je
odbijena kao neblagovremena, na dostavnici piše da sam rešenje primio u sredu
(a ne u subotu). Hajde ti posle dokaži da si primio rešenje u subotu, kad mi
je poštar podmetnuo da se potpišem na starom mestu, jer me verovatno nije
našao te srede kod kuće.
razno.257msp.,
-> #255, dbambi
d> Pitanje: Ako ne preuzmem taj poziv u navedenom roku i on bude vraćen
d> pošiljaocu, kakve konsekvence snosim ? Da li se to tretira na isti
d> način kao i neodazivanje na poziv koji je uredno primljen i potpisan ?
Sudija će doneti rešenje bez saslušanja. Rešenje ćete dobiti
poštom. U rešenju će biti pravni lek (kada, kome i u kom roku
možete da se žalite). Samo u slučaju da se ne odazovete na
poziv po krivičnoj prijavi bićete privedeni a to ovde nije
slučaj. Spavajte mirno.
razno.259dbambi,
-> #257, msp.
=> Sudija će doneti rešenje bez saslušanja. Rešenje ćete dobiti
=> poštom. U rešenju će biti pravni lek (kada, kome i u kom roku
=> možete da se žalite). Samo u slučaju da se ne odazovete na
=> poziv po krivičnoj prijavi bićete privedeni a to ovde nije
=> slučaj. Spavajte mirno.
Čini mi se da je to bio poziv na nastavak suđenja zbog prolaska
kroz crveno svetlo. Ja sam odlučio da na svaki način izbegnem plaćanje
500 din. :). Ponovo pitanje: Ako bude donesena (po mene) negativna
presuda i sud mi ju pošalje poštom, šta se dešava ako ja ponovo ne
budem kod kuće i ne prezumem to rešenje :) ? Konkretno, ako u presudi
stoji da treba da platim tu novčanu kaznu, na koji način će me sud
naterati da to stvarno i učinim ?
Da li je tačno da svi sporovi koji se vode pred sudijom za prekršaje
zastarevaju nakon 2 god. ?
Bambi
razno.260madamov,
-> #259, dbambi> Da li je tačno da svi sporovi koji se vode pred sudijom za prekršaje
> zastarevaju nakon 2 god. ?
Da. tačno je.
razno.261nenad,
-> #259, dbambi> Čini mi se da je to bio poziv na nastavak suđenja zbog prolaska
> kroz crveno svetlo. Ja sam odlučio da na svaki način izbegnem plaćanje
> 500 din. :).
Zar za taj prekršaj ne sleduje oduzimanje dozvole?
razno.262morkin,
-> #260, madamov>> Da li je tačno da svi sporovi koji se vode pred sudijom za prekršaje
>> zastarevaju nakon 2 god. ?
>
> Da. tačno je.
...ukoliko nije pokrenut postupak pred sudom.
Ispravite me ako grešim.
razno.263dbambi,
-> #261, nenad=>> Čini mi se da je to bio poziv na nastavak suđenja zbog prolaska
=>> kroz crveno svetlo. Ja sam odlučio da na svaki način izbegnem plaćanje
=>> 500 din. :).
=>
=> Zar za taj prekršaj ne sleduje oduzimanje dozvole?
Sleduje i to, ali me trenutno 500 din. boli daleko više od nedostatka
dozvole u trajanju od 3 meseca :). Naravno, svo ovo izbegavanje radim
iz dubokog uverenja da uopšte nisam kriv, tj. da nisam prošao kroz to
crveno svetlo.
Bambi
razno.264nenad,
Malo je izmodilo, ali ako neko još ima volju da pravi bedž... uz
poruku je zvanični znak, tj. logo CIA-e.
ciaseal.gifrazno.265msp.,
-> #259, dbambi
d> Ponovo pitanje: Ako bude donesena (po mene) negativna
d> presuda i sud mi ju pošalje poštom, šta se dešava ako ja ponovo ne
d> budem kod kuće i ne prezumem to rešenje :) ? Konkretno, ako u presudi
d> stoji da treba da platim tu novčanu kaznu, na koji način će me sud
d> naterati da to stvarno i učinim ?
Neće se osvrnuti na to što ga niste lično preuzeli. Daće Vam
rok (možda i žiro račun) za uplatu. Prinudnom naplatom.
Prethodno pogledajte da li imate pravo žalbe.
d> Da li je tačno da svi sporovi koji se vode pred sudijom za
prekršaje
d> zastarevaju nakon 2 god. ?
Da bi Vas osudio sudija za prekršaje nije neophodno da Vas
vidi.
razno.266dkaralic,
Nisam siguran da tekst koji sledi u nastavku pripada ovoj konferenciji.
Tekst u nastavku je pogled amerikanaca i kanadjana po raznim pitanjima.
Nadam se da ce vam se dopasti.
Dragan.
>THE MALE STAGES OF LIFE
>AGE DRINK
>17 beer
>25 beer
>35 vodka
>48 double vodka
>66 Maalox
>SEDUCTION LINE
>17 My parents are away for the weekend.
>25 My girlfriend is away for the weekend.
>35 My fiancee is away for the weekend.
>48 My wife is away for the weekend.
>66 My second wife is dead.
>FAVORITE SPORT
>17 sex
>25 sex
>35 sex
>48 sex
>66 napping
>DRUG OF CHOICE
>17 pot
>25 coke
>35 really good coke
>48 power
>66 coke, a limousine, the company jet
>DEFINITION OF A SUCCESSFUL DATE
>17 "tongue"
>25 "breakfast"
>35 "She didn't set back my therapy."
>48 "I didn't have to meet her kids."
>66 "Got home alive."
>FAVORITE FANTASY
>17 getting to third
>25 airplane sex
>35 menage a trois
>48 taking the company public
>66 Swiss maid/Nazi love slave
>HOUSE PET
>17 roaches
>25 stoned-out college roommate
>35 Irish setter
>48 children from her first marriage
>66 Barbi
>WHAT'S THE IDEAL AGE TO GET MARRIED?
>17 25
>25 35
>35 48
>48 66
>66 17
>IDEAL DATE
>17 Triple Stephen King feature at a drive-in
>25 "Split the check before we go back to my place"
>35 "Just come over."
>48 "Just come over and cook."
>66 sex in the company jet on the way to Vegas.
>THE FEMALE STAGES OF LIFE
>AGE DRINK
>17 Wine Coolers
>25 White wine
>35 Red wine
>48 Dom Perignon
>66 Shot of Jack with an Ensure chaser
>EXCUSES FOR REFUSING DATES
>17 Need to wash my hair
>25 Need to wash and condition my hair
>35 Need to color my hair
>48 Need to have Francois color my hair
>66 Need to have Francois color my wig
>FAVORITE SPORT
>17 shopping
>25 shopping
>35 shopping
>48 shopping
>66 shopping
>DRUG OF CHOICE
>17 shopping
>25 shopping
>35 shopping
>48 shopping
>66 shopping
>DEFINITION OF A SUCCESSFUL DATE
>17 "Burger King"
>25 "Free meal"
>35 "A diamond"
>48 "A bigger diamond"
>66 "Home Alone"
>FAVORITE FANTASY
>17 tall, dark and handsome
>25 tall, dark and handsome with money
>35 tall, dark and handsome with money and a brain
>48 a man with hair
>66 a man
>HOUSE PET
>17 Muffy the cat
>25 Unemployed boyfriend and Muffy the Cat
>35 Irish setter and Muffy the Cat
>48 Children from his first marriage and Muffy the Cat
>66 Retired husband dabbles in taxidermy, stuffs Muffy the Cat
>WHAT'S THE IDEAL AGE TO GET MARRIED?
>17 17
>25 25
>35 35
>48 48
>66 66
>IDEAL DATE
>17 He offers to pay
>25 He pays
>35 He cooks breakfast the next morning
>48 He cooks breakfast the next morning for the kids
>66 He can chew breakfast
razno.267nenad,
-> #266, dkaralic> Nadam se da ce vam se dopasti.
Odlično je. :) Možda je ipak trebalo u "devojke". :)
razno.268mirkomi,
-> #266, dkaralic> Nisam siguran da tekst koji sledi u nastavku pripada ovoj konferenciji.
Negde 93. godine bio je slican tekst o dobrim i losim devojkama,
proglasen je za vic meseca, tamo to salji.
razno.269dkaralic,
-> #268, mirkomiZnaci da saljem u vicevi, devojeke. Vidi se koliko pratim tu
konferenciju kada nisam ni znao gde to spada. Ako je to vec bilo,
kazes, 1993. mozda je onda pitanje da li ga i staviti. U svakom
slucaju hvala za sugestiju.
Pozdrav Dragan.
razno.270dr.iivan,
-> #269, dkaralic> konferenciju kada nisam ni znao gde to spada. Ako je to vec
> bilo, kazes, 1993. mozda je onda pitanje da li ga i staviti.
U pravu si. Izbor za vic meseca vise ne postoji :(
razno.271mirkomi,
-> #270, dr.iivan> U pravu si. Izbor za vic meseca vise ne postoji :(
Nazalost, tako je. A zasto?
razno.272schef,
Šta se polaže kao prijemni za FPN, kao i koliko ljudi primaju, postoje li
smerovi, koji su smerovi i sl.?
Hvala unapred.
P.S. Ne, nije za mene. ;) Još nisam odustao od medicine. ;>
razno.273dr.iivan,
-> #271, mirkomi>> U pravu si. Izbor za vic meseca vise ne postoji :(
>
> Nazalost, tako je. A zasto?
Odgovor bi trebalo da ocekujes od nekoga iz uprave, ali bojim se
da ga necemo dobiti :(
razno.274miobrado,
Pre desetak dana lovci iz Vrbasa bili su gosti Nikšića. Tom prilikom
je potpisana povelja o bratimljenju dva društva. Domaćini organizovali
hajku na vuka, a Rade Naumov (Patak) ga odstrelio u prvom pokušaju. ...
(PATAK UBIO VUKA)
... Na ovoj sednici, Mladi socijalisti SPS Vrbas raspravljali su i o
stvaranju realnih pretpostavki da talentovani mladi ljudi sa teritorije
opštine Vrbas imaju osnovu za početak i uspešan završetak usavršavanja:
stranih jezika, obuku iz oblasti bankarstva, berzanskog poslovanja, državne
uprave, javne administracije, diplomatije. ...
(RAZVOJ PORODICE, ZAPOŠLJAVANJE
I USAVRŠAVANJE MLADIH LJUDI)
Nakon održane Prve krajiške večeri, predstavnici Organizacionog
odbora "Krajišnika" posetili su izbeglički kamp u staroj Ginekoligiji. Tom
prilikom deci, čiji su roditelji nastradali u proteklom ratu uručili su
poklone i novčani dar. ...
(POKLON ZA DECU I SIROČAD)
Izvor: "Glas", br. 648, od 27. marta 1997. godine, str. 1., 5. i 7.
razno.275schef,
I don't belive this! :(
Upravo sam saznao sablažnjive podatke... :(
Kragujevac je u Jugoslaviji drugi po procentu obolelih od side, prvi po
procentu narkomana i predzadnji po životnom standardu. :(
Gde ja živim... ;)
razno.276morkin,
-> #275, schef> Kragujevac je u Jugoslaviji drugi po procentu obolelih od side, prvi po
> procentu narkomana i predzadnji po životnom standardu. :(
Hajde izbedači nekog i kaži ko je ispred (AIDS) i iza (standard), kao i odakle
ti podaci.
razno.277schef,
-> #276, morkin][ Hajde izbedači nekog i kaži ko je ispred (AIDS) i iza
][ (standard), kao i odakle ti podaci.
Podatke sam čuo, moguće je da nisu tačni (za sidu i narkomane) ali za
standard je garant tačno jer sam čuo na nekoliko mesta.
A što se tiče side i narkomanije verujem da je tačno, sudeći po onome
koliko ja narkosa znam, a o onima koji duvaju travu i da ne govorim (teško je
naći nekoga ko je nije makar probao). Beograd je po sidi verovatno na prvom
mestu.
Stvarno bih voleo da vidim neke relevantnije podatke. Ima li neko kontakt
sa Jazas-om?
razno.278naumov,
-> #277, schef*Ima li neko kontakte sa Jazas-om?
Pa moje dve drugarice su u stalnom kontaktu.Ako ti nesto treba pisi mi na
e-mail,jer nesto cesto ne citam ovu konferenciju.
razno.279miobrado,
P R O G R A M
ODRŽAVANJA 5. FESTIVALA GUSLARA VOJVODINE
Vrbas 19.aprila
1. Do 8,30 časova - Prijem učesnika i gostiju Festivala
2. Od 8,30 - 9,00 časova - Sastanak članova Festivalskog odbora
stručnog žirija i tehničke komisije usaglašavanje stavova za
nesmetano održavanje Festivala.
3. Od 9,00 - 9,30 časova - Žrebanje takmičara za audiciju
4. Od 9,30 - 10,00 časova - Pripreme takmičara za nastup na
eliminacionoj audiciji
5. Od 10,00 - 12,30 časova - Eliminaciona audicija
6. U 12,45 časova - Objavljivanje rezultata audicije
7. U 13,00 časova - Žrebanje takmičara za finale
8. Od 14,00 - 16,00 časova - Zajednički ručak svih učesnika i
gostiju Festivala
9. Od 16,00 - 19,00 časova - Odmor guslara i pripreme za finale
10. Od 19,00 - 23,00 časa - Finalno veče - zvanično otvaranje -
takmičarski deo - proglašenje pobednika - uručivanje
priznanja i zvanično zatvaranje Festivala.
11. Po završetku festivala, odnosno finalne večeri zajednička
večera za sve učesnike i goste.
Izvor: "Glas", br. 649, od 11. 4. 1997., str. 4. .
razno.280dr.iivan,
-> #278, naumov>* Ima li neko kontakte sa Jazas-om?
>
> Pa moje dve drugarice su u stalnom kontaktu.Ako ti nesto treba
> pisi mi na e-mail,jer nesto cesto ne citam ovu konferenciju.
Iste su nam drugarice, tako da slobodno mozes da pises ovde,
jer ja redovno pratim ovu konferenciju. I odgovor ces dobiti
ovde, da ljudi znaju.
razno.281dragoljub,
E, ako ovo nije delo nekoga Srbina... :)
U strateškoj igri Steel Panthers II postoje i dve hipotetičke bitke
između Rusije i Ukrajine. Zanimljiva su imena Ukrajinskih komandira. U
scenariju "Flames in Crimea" to su narednici: Radovan, Karadzic, Draza,
Mihajlovic, Alija, Sirota, Broz, Djilas, Mile, Pavelic, Milovanovic,
Simovic, Lazar, Aleksa... U drugom scenariju se javljaju još i Mustafa,
Franjo, Ante, Kosta, Mrksic...
Da vidimo šta se sve odavde može dobiti. Dakle imamo: Radovana
Karadžića, Dražu Mihajlovića, Antu Pavelića, Mileta Mrkšića, Aliju
Sirota(novića), Kostu Mihajlovića (dobro, malo štrči) :) Ako neko može još
nešto da uklopi neka javlja... :)
razno.282miobrado,
"U Bosni se - bar do pojave novog talasa - na ulici mogla, de facto,
prema pločama pod miškom prepoznati nacionalnost lokalnog rock-era:
musliman (Queen, AC/DC, Sweet, Kiss), rimokatolik (Boston, Styx, Sky), ili
Srbin (Deep purple, Gallagher, Allman Bros., Bad Co ili bilo koji izravni
blues derivat). Ne oslanjajući se na svojevremenu nacionalnu
diferencijaciju neuroza koju je iznio dr. Jovan Rašković, mislimo da je
ipak važno da se ona pomene: rock je uostalom, neuroza po definiciji -
vidjeti šta o tome pišu Vladimir Jovanović (portret Genesis u starom
Džuboksu) i vladika Atanasije ("Znak preporečni, str. 73)."
Citirano, je jedna od dvanaest referenci zapisa pod naslovom "Ne-zaobilazne
strategije", Jerođakona Jovana - objavljenog u zborniku Bogoslovije Sv.
Petra Cetinjskog na Cetinju i Odsjeka za filosofiju Filosofskog fakulteta u
Nikšiću, naslovljenom sa: _Jagnje božije i zvjer iz bezdana_ - koji je
objavila najnovija "Književna reč" (br. 488/489, za mart 1997. god.).
razno.283jvujnic,
Da li neko zna adresu (ili telefon) fonda za "humanitarno pravo".
To je fond koji je pomogao izbeglicama iz RS i RSK da dobiju proces protiv
vlade i u kom je svakom isplaćeno po 120 000 dinara.
razno.284nenad,
-> #283, jvujnic> To je fond koji je pomogao izbeglicama iz RS i RSK da dobiju proces
> protiv vlade i u kom je svakom isplaćeno po 120 000 dinara.
Ne mogu da ti pomognem sa adresom, ali bi bilo interesantno čuti
o kakvom se sporu radilo i sa kojom (čijom) vladom je vođen.
razno.285dbambi,
Evo jednog teksta iz najnovije " Naše Borbe ", posvećenog godišnjici
Titove smrti. Raspored je none, ali se nadam da to neće suviše smetati
prilikom čitanja.
Sedamnaest godina posle smrti bivseg ju-lidera, saljivo-ozbiljna
prepiska na
YOU ARE THE BEST
Josip Broz Tito ponovo je medju Juznim Slovenima, ovaj put preko
Interneta gde se skoro tri godine vrti njegov "Home page". Autor ove
kompjuterske monografije o Brozu je izvesni Josko, tako se potpisuje,
iz Slovenije. 27. jula 1994. on je korisnicima alternativnog i sve
mocnijeg infomrativnog sistema sirom sveta ponudio da cuju Titov glas
i neke njegove govore. Ne samo to vec i neke horske pesme poput one
"Uz marsala Tita junackog sina"... Mogu se videti i Titove fotografije
podeljene u cetiri ciklusa; najstarije, predratne i ratne, zatim slede
one iz mnogobrojnih susreta sa svetskim liderima. Pod naslovom
"interesantne", uglavnom su odabrani fotosi napravljeni u trenucima
predaha, lova, kod kuce, a poslednje su snimljene u Ljubljani nakon
operacije pa ih je kreator Titove "domace strane" provokativno naslovio
"Poslednja borba svetskog lidera".
O Titu kao antifasisti, komunisti, marsalu ili kontraverznom vladaru
totalitaracu ili perfidnom demokrati, svetskom lideru i diplomati
hedonisti... napisano je mnogo a ostaje jos vise za ozbiljne analize
u uslovima istorijske distance, ali da je Josip Broz licnost koja
izaziva interesovanje savremenika i da inspirise hiljade ljudi da se
oglase ispisivanjem stranica i stranica teksta pokazuje i "Tribina
o Titu" u okviru pomenutog "Home page", koja se proteze na preko 60
stranica.
Tako, eto, sedmnaest godina posle njegove smrti na Internetu je "i
posle Tita Tito". Preko 90 odsto pisama upuceno je direktno njemu a
mali procentualni ostatak autoru ove kompjuterske animacije. Na samom
pocetku i poruka autora koji se identifikuje sa njim uz Titov logo u
potpisu "Kao i prije i sada dokazujem kako cijenim demokratiju tako da
sva vasa pisma pa tako i ova sa kritickim misljenjima objavljujem".
Svestan da ce svojom ponudom za "razgovor" izazvati razlicite
komentare "Josko iz Slovenije" takodje napominje da nije odgovoran
ukoliko neke od poruka kod nekog izazovu teska osecanja. Pokazalo se
medjutim, da uz nekoliko iznimaka ("Odsek'o bi mu i drugu nogu pa nek
trci stafetu") ogromna vecina ucesnika ovog elektronskog razgovora
uljudno razmenjuje stavove. "Tito, ha! Dosta mi je komunista", porucuje
cetnik iz Cikaga, pod adresom "Zanet" dok Nedim Hadzibegovic, na cistom
engleskom jeziku, dodaje svoju poruku: "Zadovoljan sam sto je ime kao
Titovo naslo mesto na Internetu". " Hm! Zaista zanimljivo.
Mozda bi trebalo pokazati i onu manje poznatu i manje lijepu stranu
naseg ex idola. Ovo zasad je odlicno, ali treba produziti korak dalje.
Nadam se da to imate u planu", konstatuje Gordan, iskoristivsi priliku
da bivsim i sadasnjim Jugoslovenima skrene paznju kako na Internetu
ima i Radio Slobodna Evropa. Luka Strajner se jednog dana oglasio
parolom "Smrt fasizmu sloboda narodu" a drugog dana, postavlja pitanje
na slovenackom: "Kje bi lahko dobil tekste pesmi Alan Ford" a zatim
nastavlja "Dragi druze stari, ako boga znas vrati se i pomozi nam.
Ti si imao kljuc za svaku bravu. Jednom recju POMAGAJ."
Neki tekstovi su pisani na engleskom, neki na srpskom, hrvatskom
slovenackom, makedonskom, a neki mesano. Ljubomir Jurkovic Titu
porucuje "You are the best" (ti si najbolji) a potom dodaje, "Drago
mi je da se u ovom tudjem svijetu covjek moze obratiti svome."
Oprecnih komentaraTitovog lika i dela bilo je vise na pocetku kada je
instaliran "Home Page", ali sto je tribina duze trajala, to su
komentatori postajali ujednaceniji i blagonakloniji Titovom liku i delu.
Igor Prohaska na tipsko pitanje elektronske poste o cemu se radi
odgovara: "Druze Tito ja ti se kunem". Zatim nastavlja: "Zahvaljujem
se onima koji drze u zivotu sjecanja na tvorca zemlje koja je bila
moja i nasa domovina Jugoslavija. Naravno da nije bila perfektna, ali
je neko drzao ove nacional-sovinisticke dzukele pod kljucem i zato
kazem - Zivio drug Tito. Hvala ti na najljepsoj zemlji na svijetu!
Zao mi je sto nema ni tebe ni nje." M. Bojanic istice: "Sto vise
znam vise zelim da znam o Titu. Kako je uspeo da pobedi Nemce, sacuva
zemlju slobodnom od staljinizma i primeni adaptirani marksizam koji
je radio do njegove smrti." Ana Sedentel pise dugacko pismo
naslovljeno na njenog idola: "Dragi druze Tito. Veoma mi je drago da
te jos uvijek ima, pa makar te bilo na ovaj nacin. Steta samo sto sa
svoje sadasnje pozicije nisi u mogucnosti da ocistis bagru koja se
namnozila na prostorima bivse SFRJ. Procitala sam sve komentare na
tvoj racun. Oni koji o tebi lose pisu su pripadnici gore navedene
bagre. Dok je bilo tebe, bilo je i Jugoslavije. Kad si ti otisao
nadigla se bagra i rasturise Jugoslaviju".
Vrlo verovatno da su imena na adresama ove elektronske prepiske
izmisljena. Medjutim, zemlje pa cak i gradovi odakle stizu poruke
lako se citaju iz kompjuterske signature. Vecina sagovornika "Tribine
o Titu" oglasava se iz dijaspore: Svedske, Nemacke, Argentine
Spanije, SAD, Kanade, Ceske a na postjugoslovenskom prostoru
najaktivniji su korespodenti iz Hrvatske i Slovenije.
Bambi
razno.286supers,
-> #285, dbambi>> Josip Broz Tito ponovo je medju Juznim Slovenima, ovaj put preko
>> Interneta gde se skoro tri godine vrti njegov "Home page".
Autor nije našao za shodno da napiše URL. Bezveze.
razno.287junior,
-> #284, nenad> Ne mogu da ti pomognem sa adresom, ali bi bilo interesantno
> čuti o kakvom se sporu radilo i sa kojom (čijom) vladom je
> vođen.
Ukratko - izbeglice iz RS (i RSK) su tužile vladu SRJ, zbog
prinudne mobilizacije koja je izvršena u onim "kriznim danima",
jer po međunarodnom pravu, čiji je potpisnik i naša zemlja,
izbeglice ne mogu prisilom da se vraćaju u zemlju iz koje su
pobegli. Uz to, ljudi su proveli po par meseci po muslimanskim
zatvorima izloženi ko zna kakvim torturama, tako da su dobili
odštetu iz zbog toga.
Sve u svemu, ako ovo učine i drugi ljudi .. počeće da se klima ;)
razno.288acafaca,
Počeli da se prodaju albumi sa samolepljivim sličicama KASANDRA!!!!!!!!!
razno.289dzim,
-> #288, acafaca
Pocheli, kazesh?
Toga ima od ranije...
razno.290vasam,
-> #285, dbambi
> Josip Broz Tito ponovo je medju Juznim Slovenima, ovaj put preko
> Interneta gde se skoro tri godine vrti njegov "Home page". Autor ove
Bambi, nisam video adresu, pa daj bre :))
razno.291vasam,
-> #288, acafaca
a> Poceli da se prodaju albumi sa samolepljivim slicicama KASANDRA!!!!!!!!!
Sta da uradim da ne citam nijednu poruku gde se pominje imenica K.........
razno.292jvujnic,
-> #284, nenad> Ne mogu da ti pomognem sa adresom, ali bi bilo interesantno čuti
> o kakvom se sporu radilo i sa kojom (čijom) vladom je vođen.
OK, dakle evo celog teksta:
(opet bih molio nekog ko slučajno zna adresu ili telefon dotičnog fonda da je
pošalje)
KANDIC: JEDINSTVENA PRESUDA PROTIV SRBIJE
Beogradski Fond za humanitarno pravo pozdravio je danas presudu Prvog
opstinskog suda kojom je Republika Srbija osudjena da plati odstetu nasilno
mobilisanim izbeglicama. ,,Rec o jedinstvenoj presudi koja pokazuje strogo
postovanje zakona i pruza nadu da ovo drustvo moze da krene ka
demokratiji'', izjavila je direktorka Fonda, Natasa Kandic, na konferenciji
za novinare, prenosi Beta. Prvi opstinski sud u Beogradu obavezao je
Republiku Srbiju da osmorici izbeglica iz Republike Srpske i Republike
Srpske Krajine plati po 120.000 dinara odstete za ,,pretrpljene dusevne
bolove izazvane povredom slobode i prava licnosti''. Kandic je rekla da je
od 12. do 20. juna 1995. godine policija hapsila i nasilno mobilisala i
odvodila na ratiste lica iz Krajine i Republike Srpske, koja su imala status
izbeglica.
,,Srpska policija je nezakonito uhapsene izbeglice predala vojnim organima
RSK. Odatle su uhapseni upuceni u Bosnu, gde su ubrzo zarobljeni i odvedeni
u muslimanski logor u Bihacu. U kasnijoj razmeni, Srbija je negirala da su
to gradjani Srbije'', rekla je advokat Zorka Borozan. Jedan od mobilisanih
izbeglica, Momcilo Damjanovic, rekao je da je ,,u 2.30 nocu iz kuce odveden
u bazu u Sremskoj Mitrovici, gde mu je receno da ih vode na proveru nekih
podataka. Pre prelaska granice promenjene su tablice na autobusima, a
pogranicnim vlastima je receno da su u autobusima dobrovoljci''.
Damjanovic je rekao da niko nije smeo da reaguju, ,,jer su u Sremskoj
Mitrovici jednog coveka ubili i jednog ranili posle pokusaja bekstva''. On
je rekao da su ga u Bosni ubrzo zarobili Muslimani i odveli u logor u
Bihacu. ,,Oslobodjeni smo tek u oktobru kada je Radovan Karadzic predao 367
Muslimana za nas, 127 Srba'', izjavio je Damjanovic. On je dodao da mu nije
vazna materijalna odsteta, nego ,,da zeli svima da dokaze da su on, i ostale
izbeglice, nasilno uhapseni i odvedeni na ratiste''. Prvi opstinski sud je
ocenio da je nasilnim odvodjenjem izbeglica na front Republika Srbija
prekrsila medjunarodne dokumente o izbeglicama koje je potpisala i po kojima
je izbeglicama bila obavezna da pruzi zastitu.
razno.293mika,
-> #286, supers**> Autor nije nasao za shodno da napise URL. Bezveze.
www.altavista.digital.com
+"josip broz tito" +slovenija +tribina
eto ;)
razno.294mika,
-> #288, acafaca**> Poceli da se prodaju albumi sa samolepljivim slicicama
**> KASANDRA!!!!!!!!!
znam, vec sam zalepio jedan, sad cu i drugi ! :)
razno.295acafaca,
-> #289, dzim-=> Pocheli, kazesh?
-=> Toga ima od ranije...
Ne znam...
Moguće je da ima od ranije. Ali pošto sam zakasnio onda neću da
skupljam. :) Osim ako ima neka nagradna igra. Na primer 7 nedelja
sa Kasandrom. :))
razno.296acafaca,
-> #291, vasam-=> a> Poceli da se prodaju albumi sa samolepljivim slicicama
-=> KASANDRA!!!!!!!!!
-=> Sta da uradim da ne citam nijednu poruku gde se pominje imenica
Napiši novi olr.
razno.297gmatic,
-> #288, acafaca==> Poceli da se prodaju albumi sa samolepljivim slicicama
==> KASANDRA!!!!!!!!!
Ko skuplja da se menjamo? ;)
razno.298gmatic,
-> #291, vasam==> Sta da uradim da ne citam nijednu poruku gde se pominje
==> imenica K.........
Zamoli nekog na NET-u da moze da se lupi ignore K....... pa da
ti te poruke nestizu. :)
razno.299mika,
-> #297, gmatic**> Ko skuplja da se menjamo? ;)
ja skupljam vec drugi, prvi sam popunio, ovako :
fali mi :
21, 42, 35, 123, 53, 43, 32, 121, 54,
43, 23, 12, 52, 75, 86, 45 ,67 ,34,
1, 4, 5, 7, 65, 34, 21 , a imam :
2,6, 54, 34, 87, 65
eto.. nek se javi ko jos skuplja ;)
razno.300dbambi,
-> #286, supers=>>> Josip Broz Tito ponovo je medju Juznim Slovenima, ovaj put preko
=>>> Interneta gde se skoro tri godine vrti njegov "Home page".
=>
=> Autor nije našao za shodno da napiše URL. Bezveze.
Sorry :(. U samom tekstu ULR-a, kao što vidiš, nema, a bilo je
poprilično kasno kad sam ga skinuo, pa nisam mogao da malo probunarim
za tom adresom.
Bambi
razno.301junior,
-> #290, vasam> Bambi, nisam video adresu, pa daj bre :))
Sa pro-a:
http://lgm.fri.uni-lj.si/tito/tito-eng.html
razno.302msp.,
-> #283, jvujnic
j> Da li neko zna adresu (ili telefon) fonda za "humanitarno pravo".
Žao mi je, sve sam (čini mi se) preturio ali ne mogu da nadjem
primerak njihove publikacije. Jedino preostaje, ako nije
hitno, da se strpite dok mi stigne novi broj (izlazi
povremeno) ili da natrčim (sapletem se) o stari broj.
razno.303vasam,
-> #298, gmaticgmatic je pisao vasam:
g> ==> Sta da uradim da ne citam nijednu poruku gde se pominje
g> ==> imenica K.........
g>
g> Zamoli nekog na NET-u da moze da se lupi ignore K....... pa da
g> ti te poruke nestizu. :)
g>
Mozda nije za ovu conf
Da li postoji pretrazivac nezeljenih pojmova u porukama na NET-u, sa
mogucnoscu preskakanja istih pri citanju?
razno.304giovanni,
-> #283, jvujnicĘ? To je fond koji je pomogao izbeglicama iz RS i RSK da dobiju proces protiv
Ę? vlade i u kom je svakom isplaćeno po 120 000 dinara.
Nije sasvim tačno. Nije isplaćeno nikome ništa već je samo prvostepeni sud
doneo presudu u korist tužilaca po kojoj država Srbija treba da isplati
svakome po 120K dinara. Srbija će se naravno žaliti i ja mislim da se viša
instanca neće "zajebati" da presudi u korist tužilaca. :(
U svakom slučaju, teško da će iko od tih osmoro ljudi da vidi i jedan
dirar a ne 120.000.
razno.305petronio,
LONDON DAILY MAIL GIVES SERIOUS COVERAGE TO UFO CLAIMS
[The following article ran in the mainstream Daily Mail on March
9, 1996, written by Mary Greene. CNI News has previously reported
the British Civil Aviation Authority's recent ruling that a "near
miss" event involving a British airliner could not be explained
in any conventional way. This article reviews that event and puts
it in the context of other events that seem to involve an unusual
triangular-shaped craft of unknown origin, termed the "Silent
Vulcan" in England. The most noteworthy thing about this article,
in the opinion of CNI News, is its entirely serious tone, something
of a milestone in mainstream reporting on UFOs.]
SO IS THERE SOMEBODY OUT THERE, AFTER ALL?
by Mary Greene
It was a dark, cloudless evening in early January, and British Airways
Flight 5061 from Milan was over the Pennines, coming in to land at
Manchester Airport. All was going to schedule. Just another routine
landing... And then it happened.
First Officer Mark Stuart saw the thing first and instinctively ducked.
A strange wedge-shaped object, illuminated like a Christmas tree,
flashed soundlessly past the Boeing 737's starboard side. Within
seconds, it had vanished, but Mark Stuart and his co-pilot Captain
Roger Wills were in no doubt about what they'd seen.
The two BA pilots, both sober-minded types not given to flights of
fancy, had just experienced a close encounter with what's become
known as the Silent Vulcan.
And theirs was by no means the first encounter. Over the past ten
years, the Silent Vulcan--so called because its shape resembles
the old Vulcan bomber--has apparently been stalking the skies over
Europe and North America. First sighted over the USA, there have
now been hundreds of reported sightings, many of them in the Pennine
Corridor which runs from the Midlands up through Yorkshire [in England].
In 1990 it was spotted in Belgium and, on that occasion the Belgian
air force scrambled fighter planes in a fruitless bid at interception.
Now even the sceptics in the corridors of power are beginning to
take it seriously. The UFO phenomenon, long associated with little
green men in starships, can no longer be easily dismissed as simple
fantasy. Even senior-ranking MoD officials have now admitted publicly
what they have privately been convinced of for many years: that the
Unidentified Flying Object actually exists.
Foremost among them is Nick Pope, head of Secretariat (Air Staff)
2a between1991 and 1994 and, as such, the British Government's expert
on the UFO phenomenon. He began his three-year tour of duty as a
fair-minded sceptic but, remarkably, ended as a believer. Still working
for the MoD, he has written a book, "Open Skies, Closed Minds,
" due to be published in June (Simon & Schuster)--and,
significantly, has actually been promoted since he articulated his
extraordinary claims.
Of course, the vast majority of the 200 to 300 reports Pope received
each year could be explained away. There are, after all, many logical
explanations: freak meteorological conditions, an exceptionally bright
meteor, even the earthlights that glow in the sky around the time
of an earthquake.
Yet, as Pope explains: "That left a hard core of five to ten
per cent which defied explanation. I am now convinced that there
may be an extraterrestrial explanation."
So, too, is Timothy Good, a leading UFO authority, whose new book,
"Beyond Top Secret: The Worldwide UFO Security Threat,"
due to be published on April 26 (Macmillan), examines the potential
threat of extraterrestrial beings.
So why is the extraterrestrial theory finally being taken seriously?
Significantly, earthly science is at a loss to explain the extraordinary
speed of UFOs such as the Silent Vulcan (or, as Nick Pope prefers
to term it, the Flying Triangle). Could a superior force be at work?
"The Flying Triangle clearly behaves in a way that is beyond
the cutting edge of our own technology," says Pope. "It
can move from hover to speeds of about 5,000 mph in less than a second,
acceleration that would kill any human occupant... and who knows
if indeed there is an occupant?"
Just a few years ago, such suggestions would have been laughed at.
Now, however, even the Civil Aviation Authority is taking the matter
seriously.
After First Officer Stuart and Captain Roger Wills filed a formal
report of their near-miss above the Pennines, the CAA spent a year
investigating their claims. Last month, it agreed they had seen an
Unidentified Flying Object--or, as they prefer to term it, an "unassessable"
object. They commended the pilots, and British Airways, for their
courage and enlightenment in making the report.
Not surprisingly, the CAA's response was seen as a milestone in official
recognition of the UFO phenomenon.
To understand the UFO's sudden rise in credibility, it is necessary
to trace the history of what later became known as the Silent Vulcan.
As early as 1983, there was an extraordinary surge of sightings in
the Hudson Valley in upstate New York. Hundreds, maybe thousands,
of people, many of them professionals, bore witness to a spectacular
phenomenon, that reappeared over a period of more than three years.
It was described as a pattern of brilliant flashing coloured lights,
generally in the form of a V or boomerang. It moved slowly, silently,
and was as big as a football pitch; some said it was as big as three
football pitches. Often, it was no more than a few hundred feet from
the ground, and generally stayed in view for ten minutes or more.
If it turned, it did not bank as a plane would, but simply moved
sideways.
The Federal Aviation Authority denied its existence, and no rational
explanation was forthcoming. Sightings in the Hudson Valley tailed
off during 1986, though there were sporadic reports of triangular
or boomerang-shaped phenomena elsewhere in the country. But as sightings
of the 'Silent Vulcan' waned in America, reports came in from the
Midlands and North of England throughout 1986 and 1987.
In October 1986, Mark Smith, 30, a company director from Leeds, and
his wife Allyson, 28, an office clerk, had a mysterious encounter
on the M1 just south of Nottingham. As Mark recalls: "There
were no other cars about when we saw this light in the sky, about
200 feet above ground level but coming down on us at a 45-degree
angle. It seemed to be travelling at about 50 mph, but slowed down
as it crossed the motorway, at a height of about 50 feet. It was
round, nearly as wide as the motorway itself, with what looked like
windows around it and oblong structures that seemed to protrude from
the sides. It seemed to be made of a grey metal.
"A very bright light lit up the whole motorway but the object
didn't make any sound: it just seemed to glide on. It landed in fields
about 200 yards away from the motorway, and its light went out. I
say it landed, but as it was dark. It could have disappeared over
the brow of a hill.
"At first I thought it was a plane going to crash and I slowed
down. It wasn't a helicopter, it wasn't an aeroplane. If I'd been
on my own I'd have thought I was just imagining things, but we both
saw it."
Other witnesses gave similar accounts. August 1987 showed intense
UFO activity over this part of the country, and on the night of August
16, more than 20 people in Derby reported a brilliantly-lit object
"that seemed to change shape, opening out from an oval into
an arrow-shape." Among them was Audrey Boon, 66, a retired catering
assistant from Belper, Derby, and her husband Trevor, 69, a former
RAF sergeant. According to Audrey, they saw a massive object "with
big square lights all the way round... all lit up like a couple of
double-decker buses end to end in the sky."
Not long afterwards, on September 29, 1987, Tony Goodwin, 53, a JCB
excavator from Uttoxeter, Staffordshire, and his three companions
saw a similar glowing object coming towards them. "It was huge,
about 100 feet long, triangular in shape and surrounded by about
30 brightly-coloured lights flashing in sequence, pulsing red underneath,
" he recalls.
Then came the best-documented manifestation of all. On November 29,
1989, a wave of mysterious sightings was reported across Belgium.
In the early evening, two police officers observed a "dark,
enormous triangle," seemingly solid, lit by white lights in
each corner. It moved very slowly, at low altitude and they followed
it by car; suddenly it rose up, vertically and soundlessly, sharply
maneuvering to begin what appeared to be a slow, circular reconnaissance
of the area. The policemen described what they saw as a dark, flat
structure, with a windowed platform on top "like the windows
of a train at night." Nearly three hours after they logged it,
the object accelerated and disappeared.
Hundreds of similar sightings were reported across Belgium: small
triangles, jumbo-jet-sized triangles, triangles with windows, triangles
that flew backwards. They continued for more than a month.
Next, on March 30, 1990, on a cold, cloudless night, at 23.03 hours,
the Belgian air force observed three strange lights in the sky, constantly
changing colour, forming the points of an isosceles triangle. Soon
a second set of lights was spotted, forming a smaller triangle. The
air force recorded blips on its radar screens and at 00.05 hours
scrambled two F-16s to intercept the "intruder." Several
times they obtained a radar lock-on, once for as long as 20 seconds,
but nothing was sighted. As soon as contact was made, the object
seemed to maneuver out of the way, dropping in seconds from several
thousand to just a few hundred feet.
No rational explanation could be made of the events of that night.
Had the Belgian air force scrambled to intercept the Silent Vulcan,
which is alleged to have been heading towards Dover at more than
1,000 mph when it was lost?
In this country, meanwhile, the evidence is steadily growing. Since
the Fifties, our own Ministry of Defence has accumulated information
on more than 8,000 UFO sightings, information that is withheld from
the public under the 30-year rule. There is a standard response to
such reports: "Our only concern is to establish whether or not
they pose a threat to the security of the United Kingdom. Unless
we judge that they do, and this has not been the case so far, we
do not attempt to investigate further, or to identify whatever might
have been seen... We are not aware of any evidence that might support
the existence of extra-terrestrial life."
Now, though, the MoD's united front is starting to crack. Some, like
Nick Pope--ironically, the man who until recently signed such letters
-- have been persuaded "by the sheer breadth and depth of the
evidence over the years."
Nor is Pope a one-off maverick at the Ministry of Defence. Retired
Admiral of the Fleet Lord Hill-Norton, a former Chief of Defence
Staff and the senior military officer in NATO during the mid-Seventies,
has gone on record accusing the Government of covering-up UFO incidents,
including the Belgian air force sighting.
"It is absurd to pretend there is nothing going on when it is
perfectly plain that there is," he has said.
So is there a high level cover-up? Or simply bafflement? Ralph Noyes,
now retired, was head of Defence Secretariat 8 (as Air Staff 2 was
known before reorganisation) from 1969 to 1972. Like Pope, he was
a sceptic when he first took up his post. "I thought it was
nonsense," he says. "That was the official line but I know
a number of my Air Staff colleagues were pretty uneasy about what
was going on.
"There wasn't a cover-up. There was ignorance," he alleges
now. "Ninety-five per cent of cases can probably be explained
in rational terms but there is a hard core that nobody understands."
He himself claims to have sighted a UFO, over London's Chelsea in
1984. Intriguingly, he does not believe the UFOs' behaviour is simply
random.
"There is a persistent phenomenon around this planet which manifests
itself in a very odd way and which seems to indicate a degree of
intelligence. The experience of the military is that it flickers
in and out, it appears on radar, then disappears... it teases them.
The indication is that it targets: there's an aircraft, it plays
tricks on it. There's usually a lonely witness, out in the country,
and it teases.
"The fact is that on a number of occasions it has come jolly
near to causing aircraft accidents, though it hasn't been directly
blamed for any accident. Hard-headed civilian airline pilots are
extremely reluctant to report sightings. But it would be intellectual
cowardice to argue away the hard core of these UFO reports."
So what is behind the phenomenal rise in sightings--and what do
they really mean? As yet, no one is offering answers. What does emerge,
however, is a new and worrying suggestion--that the UFO activity
may not be as benign as the authorities would like us to believe.
As Philip Mantle, director of investigations for the British UFO
Research Association, points out: "They call it an 'unassessable'
object... but I wonder how they would have tabled a collision instead
of a near-miss? Whom would they have blamed? The Russians? The IRA?
Speculation would have been about bombs and terrorists. If I were
part of the powers-that-be at British Airways or the CAA, I'd be
worried..."
If the experts are right, and UFO sightings continue at their present
rate, one thing seems likely: that sooner or later the "near
miss" may become a collision. Only then, perhaps, will we begin
to understand a phenomenon once dismissed as fantasy, now recognised
as the greatest mystery of our times. Until then, witnesses such
as Mark Stuart and Audrey Boon can only wait and wonder...
Original file name: CNI - Brit UFO.Serious 3.25
razno.306petronio,
Aliens in the New World
A New Paradigm for Ufology
Copyright (C) 1995 Michael Miley / UFO Magazine Vol. 10, No. 6, 1995.
CNI News thanks Michael Miley and UFO Magazine for permission to
reproduce this article.
"Throughout history, many societies have acknowledged consciousness
as something more potent than we have in the West--as a sieve or
receiver and transmitter of communication with forces, not always
visible, other than ourselves. The contemporary Western tenet that
we are alone in the universe, conversant only with ourselves, is,
in fact, a minority perspective, an anomaly."--John Mack,
Abduction: Human Encounters with Aliens
Something very old is reemerging in the modern world, but it appears
like something new. It appears to be new by a kind of amnesia,
acenturies-long sleep, from which we're awakening. I'm not just
referring to a belief in beings from the sky, though that's a
big part of it. Rather, it's something much deeper, and in consequence,
more troubling, so much so in fact that it's escalated into a
war. An ontological war. A war of worldviews. On the one hand,
we have the materialist perspective, enshrined in our universities,
our laboratories, and think tanks. And on the other hand, we
have the more "spiritual" view, awakening like Rip Van
Winkle in the lives of ordinary people. For some, it takes the
form of visitations from various beings, odd impossible creatures
who come calling in the night. For others, it looks like quantum
weirdness, or out-of-body experiences, or ET channeling. What
it portends is the collapse of a worldview that has served us
well for a time, but no longer. But that collapse is not going
to happen without a fight. And that fight will extend to the field
of ufology.
The thesis of this article is that the UFO/alien question is best
answered by the transpersonal view of the world and a true "science
of mind." This view posits other realms of being and states
of consciousness, to which we have access. It postulates that the
reason we haven't understood UFOs or alien beings very well is that
our focus has been in the wrong direction. Dazzled by the phenomenon
itself, by its trickster-like qualities, we neglect the being that
it's happening to: us, Homo sapiens, but us as more than monkey or
machine. The reason for this neglect is a mixture of brainwashing
and fear, fear of a very profound and animal kind, a fear very akin
to our fear of death. But then, there's no greater taboo than the
one against knowing who you are.
The Case for the Hyperdimensional Theory
"If they are not spacecraft, what else could UFOs be? What research
framework can account for the physical effects, for the impact on
society, for the appearance of the occupants, and for the seemingly
absurd, dream-like elements of their behavior?... I believe that
the UFO phenomenon represents evidence for other dimensions beyond
spacetime; the UFOs may not come from ordinary space, but from a
multiverse which is all around us, and of which we have stubbornly
refused to consider the disturbing reality in spite of the evidence
available to us for centuries."--Jacques Vallee, Dimensions
A short review of the hyperdimensional theory of UFOs and aliens
is in order here, because the theory attempts to account for observed
phenomena of several different kinds. These are the behavior
of the craft themselves, the beings purported to operate those
craft, and the effect of an encounter on the people who have them.
Encounter is not confined to abduction, though that's one of
its most dramatic kinds.
Jacques Vallee was one of the first researchers to point out that
UFOs often behave like no physical object or craft we know of, and
yet they're able to leave physical traces on the ground or trees.
Erratic flight at impossible speeds and trajectories, the merging
of two craft, instantaneous disappearance and reappearance at a
distant location, as well as many light and energy effects, led him
as well as others (Davenport, Fowler, Randles) to speculate about
other dimensions, or holographic light shows projected from those
spaces, as well as hyperspatial, anti-gravity, and time machines.
All these theories of UFO behavior imply some kind of hidden aspect
to physical reality of which we have little knowledge.
Then there are the beings themselves, who come in various forms.
Catalogues vary from a few (Moulton Howe) to over 70 (Harder), but
among the bewildering array of insect types, intelligent lizards,
gray neonates, and beautiful people, are luminous sorts who can appear
and disappear, pass through walls (bringing people with them), and
communicate telepathically. Grays of the more solid sort, as well
as "plasma-like" beings, are among the most common American
types, for reasons which remain mysterious. Comparisons can be made
between these alien types and apparitions of the past, in all climes
and times, as ufologists, anthropologists, and folklorists are quick
to point out (Vallee, Goodenough, Clark and Coleman, and Rojcewicz)
-- though Thomas Bullard would say that abduction stories do not
appear to be disseminated in the culture like folk tales, but have
their own structure (Pritchard). More importantly for the hyperdimensional
theory, however, is that these beings are understood to be all around
us (and always have been), but are usually invisible and only seen
under the right conditions. They may be extraterrestials for all
we know, but they hide behind "the veil of matter."
Then we have to account for the effects of encounters on the people
who have them, the nature of which are manifold. In the midst of
an abduction or encounter, an amazing array of extraordinary experiences
are reported, including apocalyptic visions or holographic shows,
telepathy with the beings, psychokinesis, levitation, dematerialization,
out-of-body experiences (OBEs), and theophanies (Fowler, Mack, Turner).
Beings are reported that resemble religious figures usually seen
in mystical and near-death experiences (NDEs) (Turner, Fowler, Ring),
while others shapeshift right before your eyes (Strieber, Turner).
But the aftermaths are equally strange. People report electronic
appliances ceasing to work in their presence, while poltergeist-like
phenomena can invade their homes in ways similar to cases of disturbed
pubescent teenagers (Jung, Talbot). Physical signs, such as lesions,
scoop marks, and burns, as well as intimations of implants, imply
hidden technologies at work; while rapidly healing wounds indicate
paranormal forces similar to the ones that can be found in the lives
of mystics, such as Padre Pio, whose stigmata disappeared upon his
death (Grosso).
Finally, it's not remiss to point out that encounter is not confined
to physical abduction, though that's what's getting the press these
days. I bring this up because even at the Abduction Study Conference
held at MIT in 1992, attempts were made to define abduction primarily
in physical terms (Pritchard/Hopkins, Jacobs, Rodeghier). My view
is that encounter is not solely defined by abduction, nor is abduction
confined to physical removal to another location, usually a spacecraft.
Interviews I've conducted in the San Francisco Bay area with experiencers
Dr. Angela Browne-Miller, Kurt Mayne, and Su Piercy (See following
article) would seem to indicate that encounters are much more varied
than abduction accounts would lead you to believe, and that encounters
can occur in OBEs and in non-ordinary states of mind, even while
you're lying in your bed. Of course, this view is controversial,
though other researchers support it (Fowler, Mack, Randles, Ring).
Daimonic and Non-ordinary Realities
"When we hear of the shiny metallic skins or suits of the aliens,
we naturally think of our own astronauts. But we might also remember
the shiny little metal-men--earth spirits and kobolds--who haunted
the mines and mountains; the hooded manikins called Cabiri who figure
famously in Goethe's Faust; and the small but mighty Dactyls, gods
of invention, who were known to the ancient Greeks. We have already
seen that fairies and their like can travel the skies as lights resembling
UFOs. But the ihk'al of the Tzeltal Indians in Mexico fly about
with a kind of rocket attached to their backs. They are described
as three-foot-tall, hairy humanoids who occasionally use their means
of propulsion to carry people off."--Patrick Harpur, Daimonic
Reality: A Field Guide to the Otherworld
The transpersonal view of encounter tends to position aliens within
a loose pantheon of imaginal, folklorish beings, in the sense
used by visionaries and mystics such as William Blake or Ibn 'Arabi,
who see such beings as real, but not entirely physical (Crobin,
Grosso, Ring). But nowadays, the average Western student of
folklore is apt to think of its study as a mere literary exercise,
akin to trolling world mythology for psychological themes (Campbell).
Gods and spirits, as well as a host of mythical beings, are reduced
to mere images and metaphors of the human psyche, relegated to
the poetry of the mind. This is symptomatic of the naturalization
of the daimonic world (not "demons," but the world of
the "soul" according to the Greeks) that is the legacy
of Cartesian thinking, with its radical separation of mind and
matter (Harpur, Herbert, Goswami).
Things are not always helped here by the Jungian tradition, despite
the fact that Jung himself took great interest in UFOs and admitted
that a purely psychological interpretation of the phenomenon was
perhaps inadequate to account for such things as radar traces and
other physical effects. Even Jung's notion of psychoid phenomena
-- events that are somehow both psychological and physical--has
never much caught on. This is because "the psychoid" and
related concepts such as "synchronicity" have a hard time
competing with the dominant scientific view that our mind is in our
heads, and that consciousness is a only function of our brains.
(What's more, producing "psychoid" phenomenon at will is
not a talent our laboratory technicians have mastered very well.)
This is not to say that the work of all folklorists and mythologists
is "mere literature," especially with regard to our topic.
John Mack quotes from the works of Goodenough, Clark and Coleman,
Eliade, and Rojcewicz in his book Abduction: Human Encounters With
Aliens, which point to tantalizing parallels to modern alien encounters
in Hopi, Australian, Pygmy, Siberian, and Brazilian folklore. He
also mentions the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, where lucid dreaming
techniques can give way to OBEs, and where flights to "other
dimensions" can mirror shamanic journeys, both for their evidence
of other realms and the existence of normally invisible beings (Norbu).
The Hindu tradition believes similarly, even to warning the practitioner
of yoga against getting too enamored of the mid-realms of existence
and the promises of the beings you can find there (Patanjali). Similar
warnings can be found in the shamanic literature (Castenada, Halifax,
Harner, Kalweit). To these must be added the findings of research
in psychedelics, channeling, transpersonal psychology, OBEs, and
thanatology (the study of death and NDEs) (Grof, Kalweit, Klimo,
Kubler-Ross, McKenna, Monroe, Ring), all of which point to a similar
conclusion: non-ordinary human experiences can occur "beyond
the brain," in Stanislav Grof's emphatic phrase--which translates
to experience of nonmaterial domains and the beings that inhabit
them.
I'll be more precise: NDEs and OBEs have been reported in the context
of UFOs and aliens by a number of researchers (Fowler, Mack, Ring);
while Raymond Fowler in The Watchers I and II (which concerns the
experiences of Betty and Bob Luca) makes this very explicit: grays
and tall robed "aliens" have been seen by Betty and Bob
both in their bodies and out. This theme is sounded again in Whitley
Strieber's Breakthrough, where the dead "astral" form of
Michael Talbot is seen by Strieber in the context of alien visitations;
while other experiences he recounts show him susceptible to OBEs.
Now, anyone who's had an OBE (and that includes me) knows how difficult
it is to convey the experience within a culture that simply denies
that such things are possible, or that they can be what they appear
to be. Anything seen during an OBE can be put down to hallucination;
while NDEs, with their revelations of "the beyond" (the
light at the end of the tunnel, the luminous beings waiting on the
other side with your dead relatives) can be attributed to chemicals
in the brain going awry during the dying process, or to the wish-
fulfillment of a personality frightened by its own disintegration
at the moment of death.
The point to be made here, however, is that these are not "facts"
of the case, but materialist hypotheses that need to be proven, and
that they make an underlying assumption about causality and the physical
nature of reality in order to frame an "explanation" for
these peculiar phenomena. But the opposite is also true: because
their "spiritual" counterparts are also hypotheses, we're
faced with the intriguing prospect that the right kind of experiments
might prove quite the opposite of a physical explanation. And that's
precisely the transpersonal position: non-ordinary human experience,
given its due, shows profound evidence for a nonmaterialist view
of reality--a kind of idealist monism, where consciousness, not
matter, is the foundation of all things.
Contact in a Transpersonal Context
"It would appear that many ETs may have already entered and,
at least in part, mastered the post-dualist, unified field stage
of understanding and working with Creation. They seem to be interacting
with us, entering at will our less open, less aware species-specific,
state-dependent consensus reality. They do so in such a way as to
inspire at least some of us to entertain what it might be like to
live and move in their, not our, frame of reference."--Jon
Klimo, from Zen in the Art of Close Encounters
Thus, the transpersonal view of UFOs and alien encounters has two
clear virtues: 1) it places these experiences in an historical
context supported by folkloric and esoteric traditions all over
the world; and 2) it proposes that the realms of such experiences
are accessible to human beings in non-ordinary states of consciousness.
But it says something else, which is very provocative: that encounters,
with all their trauma, may portend something startling about
human evolution. Like the spirit trials of shamans, where a person
is psychically torn apart and put back together only to emerge
with new healing abilities, so too may UFO and alien encounters
-- with the host of character changes and paranormal aftereffects
they induce in the lives of contactees--portend some larger
way of being-in-the-world.
What would that larger way of human being look like; and conversely,
what might it tell us about the "way" of alien beings?
(Perhaps during encounters the aliens are infecting us with their
own abilities and perspectives, and the more we're changed by them,
the more we'll understand them.) Or maybe I should phrase the issue
differently, namely: what kind of world is it wherein such things
are possible? Clearly, not a world we've been taught to believe
in, at least in the West, but a world that more closely resembles
that of the shamans or yogis, where paranormal abilities are an assumed
reality. In that world, consciousness is the fundamental fact of
existence, not matter, and it's all-pervasive--a view of existence
that Aldus Huxley once called "the perennial philosophy."
A yogi is a human who simply "has more consciousness" and
is "tuned in" to its depths and range in the cosmos (Aurobindo,
Radhakrishnan, Yogananda).
Seeing consciousness as the basis of all being is a very old mystical
view of the world, versions of which can be found in the esoteric
traditions of all world religions. But we're dealing here with a
tendency that's also emerging at the cutting edges of quantum physics.
A movement is afoot to view the observable traits of quantum weirdness
(the wave/partical duality, uncertainty and the collapse of the wave
function, the jump of quantum "objects" from state to state
with no intervening stage, and the principle of nonlocality) as best
explained by an idealist monism, where consciousness, as an implicit,
fundamental reality, creates the explicit, material world as a kind
of "dream" or hologram (Bohm, Goswami, Herbert, Talbot,
Wolf).
It's in transpersonal psychology, however, where most contemporary
evidence for a larger worldview exists. The premise here, as Grof
reports, is that if consciousness is everywhere, conscious beings
potentially have access to all the manifold realms of existence,
including the mid-realms of daimonic beings--the hunting ground
of our so-called "angels and aliens." Fortunately, we
don't have to take Grof's word for it. We can pursue non-ordinary
states of consciousness for ourselves by a variety of means.
It's not my purpose here to expound on the wide variety of non-ordinary
states that people report, or about yoga, shamanic journeys, self-
induced OBEs, or psychedelic experience. Readers are referred to
the literature. My point here is to simply point out something rather
obvious to consciousness researchers that seems to have escaped the
attention of many ufologists: that if the hyperdimensional view of
UFOs and aliens has any merit, and they inhabit the same realms we
visit in non-ordinary states, then we also have experiential access
to the sources of the UFO phenomenon. And that's a rather startling
conclusion, with profound implications.
Now the question of course becomes to develop these states systematically.
I'm talking here about engendering nothing less than a true "science
of the mind," where non-ordinary states of consciousness can
be reliably explored, and where "objects" of non-ordinary
perception can be scientifically catalogued and objectively compared
within a community of researchers (Murphy)--even if those "objects"
are as weird as UFOs and aliens. (The implications here for evaluating
claims of so-called "channeled" ET communications are extremely
relevant and might go far toward helping us discriminate between
genuine channels and dissociated personalities (Klimo).) However,
yogis and Buddhist monks have claimed for centuries that such a science
of the mind already exists. It only needs to be applied diligently
by competent and willing practitioners to prove or disprove it (Lodro).
And therein lies the crux of the problem. It's possible that we
already have at our disposal the means to uncover, through firsthand
experience, the true meaning of UFOs and alien encounters, if the
transpersonal view of encounters is correct. What stands in the way
is a materialist ontology that's rampant in most scientific circles
-- the selfsame ideology that would pathologize alien encounter and
the people who have it. Add to that a basic fear, laziness, and resistance
to uncovering our "true identity" as transpersonal beings,
with all the implications, and you have some powerful deterrents
to finding a solution to the UFO/alien problem.
Transpersonal psychology is more hopeful than mainstream ufology
in this regard, since it's aware of these non-ordinary states and
domains in the first place. There are signs, however, among certain
researchers that the "perennial" paradigm has again come
of age (Fowler, Klimo, Mack, Pursglove). The process of discovering
our own deeper identity may be the key to discovering the aliens'
as well.
[Michael Miley is a freelance writer and researcher of transpersonal
psychology, the new physics, and the UFO/alien phenomenon. He can
be reached via email at mikemiley@aol.com.]
New Dimensions in Alien Contact
(Sidebar to "Aliens in the New World")
Copyright (C) 1995 Michael Miley / UFO Magazine Vol. 10, No. 6, 1995.
When we move away from the usual abduction scenario for contact,
things get very ambiguous. At our present level of knowledge, the
true status of a particular experience is sometimes hard to discipher.
Does a particular experience occur in a lucid dream? In an out-of-
body state? In the physical world? In another dimension? Do experiences
occur simultaneously on several levels? 1) on the conscious level,
where what floats up to awareness is "edited" or intermixed
with "screen" memories, perhaps induced by the aliens themselves?
and 2) on a non-ordinary level, where the true event is registered?
And using hypnotic regression to recover buried memories seems to
be a double-edged sword. We appear to be recovering the "deeper"
memory, but it may be that we're confusing the issue by "requiring
a narrative" in the hypnotic session, as some researchers suspect.
But maybe not. There's much that we're still finding out about non-
ordinary states of mind, and the issue gets apparently complicated
by the beings themselves. They seem to have their own agenda, which
sometimes seems calculated to confuse or manipulate us.
The quotes below are excerpts from interviews with three experiencers
in the San Francisco Bay area who've had paranormal events happening
to them all their lives. The first two are consciously recalled experiences,
while Kurt's was aided by an hypnotic regression. Do these accounts
support a "transpersonal view" of encounters, or are they
evidence for extraterrestial contact? The jury's still out, but the
evidence for the former is very suggestive.--MM
Dr. Angela Browne-Miller
"In July of this year [1995], I was driving down from Marin
at around 11pm to meet someone I'd met through "the underground"
at Crissy Field, near Ft. Mason, for some kind of "prearranged
landing"--I know that sounds quite strange, but there you
have it. But I never got there in my car. As I approached the
bridge, I thought, 'This is nuts. You'd better not do this.' And
when I next looked at a clock, it was 4 or 5 in the morning. Lost
time. But then, in this empty space of time, there was a time
when I was nowhere. This sounds so classic, it surprises even
me. But a thing was there that was sort of formless, a kind of
gelatinous something rather than a specific shape, but its bottom
opened, and this white light--but it wasn't light--poured
out, and it was the most delicious syrup. It was ecstatic, very
seductive, sucking me in. And I came toward it and saw these five
beings or presences in that light and they said [telepathically],
'OK, we're here to talk to you. You're not obeying, and if you
don't do your job, we're going to take you back.' I said, 'What?'
And they said, 'We'll take you now, if you aren't going to do
the rest of your work.' And I said, 'I still have more to do.'
'Well,' they said, 'you can come back in another body, or you
can just channel it in.' 'But I am doing my job,' I said. And
then they said 'Your job was two things: Your job was as a breeder,
and you're also here to disseminate mindthink.' I said, 'I'm
doing that' (even though I'm actually undermining my assignment,
Ididn't tell them that I am), 'but I don't want to leave just
now. I'm also doing this love thing.' And they said, 'You didn't
come here for that. You're really making a serious mistake.'"
Sudakshina Piercy
"It's December 1993. I'm going through a spiritual crisis.
I'm functioning from moment to moment. I go home from work one
day and put my futon on the floor and lay down on it. For three
days, I'm in a trance. Everything shuts down. My husband comes
in periodically to check on me, but I can't move, I can barely
hear his voice. I seem to be in the Bardo, in the death space,
and I see columns of light, pure soul energy around me, seven
beings with Jewish names. The soul of this Jewish psychiatrist
comes into the space. I see that she's going to die. [She does,
alittle more than year later, in January of 1995.--MM] I
feel like I'm in multiple dimensions at once. I'm on my bed in
my room, but I'm also on a table in a more expansive space, like
a beehive. There's a bright, intense white light on my face, coming
down from the ceiling. I feel a heavy, physical pressure so intense
that I can't move my arms. Outside the pool of light, there are
several beings in a ring. I feeling like I'm being prepared. There's
a communication, an interchange, to allay my fears. I'm in their
realm, while they're in my experience of them, sharing it with
me, as if they're inside my mind. It's as if I've moved into the
space of a future event, that I'm going to be with these ETs later
on. And now I remember that in 1974, when our family had seen
the UFO in Chittaranjan, India, they told me [telepathically]
that they'd be back in 20 to 25 years."
Kurt Mayne
"It's 1970, in Oakland, late summer. I get up from bed in
the middle of the night because some cats are howling. But it's
an eerie sound, like they're a million miles away. And then there's
total silence. The normal thing to do would have been to go right
back to sleep. Instead, for no apparent reason, I get up and walk
out the bedroom door, into the living room. I look at the pane
glass door leading to the backyard. I can see through the house,
down the hallway, through the kitchen, to the window there in
the door. On the other side, I see shimmering lights, and I walk
towards them. I hear a roaring in my gut. Then I seem to go through
the back door. It's then that I see him standing there. He's 5,
maybe 6 feet tall, and he has two black dots for eyes. He's a
pillowy form, not solid, a shade of green. He's pure love, and
I love him more than I can say. I ask him why can't I go home.
He tells me I am home and that I'm here because I have a gift
for bringing people together. Then I see an orange planet projected
into my mind which feels like home. There's a tall pyramid there
with a ring around it, a halo. All the while, there's a circular
ship above us and I can feel the warmth of a beam coming down.
Then I go back to bed. I don't remember how I got there. I simply
materialize back there, and that's it. It's after this experience
that my night terrors began. They only cleared up when I confronted
my experience and did regression."
Angela Browne-Miller, D.S.W., Ph.D., also known as "Shri-Yah,
" is an artist, psychotherapist, seminar leader, and author
of numerous books, including Adventures in Death, and Omega Point.
Su Piercy works in the software industry as a consultant, developing
and managing training programs and technical documentation projects.
Her interests are reading, writing, painting, and dance.
Kurt Mayne and his family live in the East Bay. He has intense
interest in not only his abduction/contact, but that of all contactees.
Readers who wish to contact these folks should do so via mikemiley@aol.com.