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12 Jul 1991 - 21 Nov 1999

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Messages - srbija

srbija.1 dejanr,
>> Molim Sysadmin-e da pored zastarele teme "Jugoslavija", koju valja >> zadžati iz istorijskih razloga, otvore daleko akutniju, savremeniju i >> preče nam potrebnu temu "Srbija". Učinjeno!
srbija.2 iboris,
XumHa CBetom CaBu ! Uskliknimo s ljubavlju Svetitelju Savi Srpske crkve i skole Svetiteljskoj glavi. Tamo venci , tamo slava, Gde nas SRPSKI pastir Sava Pojte mu SRBI Pesmu i utrojte! Blagodarna SRBIJO, Puna si ljubavi Prema svome pastiru Svetitelju Savi. Celo SRPSTVO slavi slavu Oca svoga Svetog Savu. Pojte mu SRBI Pesmu i utrojte! |S| neba salje blagoslov |S|veti otac Sava. |S|a svih strana svi SRBI |S|` mora i Dunava K nebu glave podignite Savu tamo ugledajte. Savu SRPSKU slavu, Pred prestolom TVORCA ! Da se SRPSKA sva srca S` tobom ujedine, Sunce mira,ljubavi Da nam svima sine, Da zivimo svi u slozi Sveti Savo , ti pomozi. Pocuj glas svog roda, SRPSKOGA naroda. Pet vekova SRBIN je u ropstvu camio. Svetitelja Save Ime je slavio. Sveti Sava SRBE voli. I za njih se bogu moli. POJTE MU SRBI PESMU I UTROJTE !
srbija.3 zonjic,
'FALA BOGU! E, sada kad smo se smirili od odusevljenja u povodu otvaranja ove teme da krenemo hladno na rad! (A sad svi na svoja radna mesta :-} )
srbija.4 dveselinovic, -> #3, zonjic
Da, bogami, hvala sysadmin-ima na ovako brzoj reakciji, svaka čast. Ljudi, Klub nam je dobro mesto. Ja ću u ponedeljak malo da zaređam po dilerima, nastaviću u utorak, kada bi trebao sa ljudima iz Matice Srpske da utvrdim detaljan ratni plan (ovo ratni zbog tesnih rokova i pridržavanja, a ko zna, možda uskoro i bukvalno - nadam se ne, ali moramo na sve računati). Prilozi mogu u Klubu, a ja ću tada znati da li im više znače pare ili mašina, kao što ću znati da li su dileri voljni da se malo portude. Nadam se ... U svakom slučaju, u sredu izveštaj. 32XDVV P.S. Biće i ovde u ovoj konferenciji, za one koji budu sprečeni da se lično pojave.
srbija.5 dveselinovic,
Evo sledećeg paketa za BIX: REPORTS ON ROBBERY IN CROATIA More and more reports are pouring in regarding robberies in Croatia. There are three basic ways this is done. Method 1. Armed Croat police patrols stop cars on roads. They inquire whether passengers have photos of President Tudjman. Most do not, of course. Police then say people cannot proceed without such photo, but they will sell one for 1,000 dinars ($42 - typical price of such photos on streets 100 dinars). People pay because they want to proceed. Several miles down the road, the process is repeated, but this time, people cannot go on without COLOR photo, which costs 1,500 dinars. Some pay, some go back, enlightened by this new knowledge of democracy. Method 2. People are stopped in trains, generally bound for Belgrade. Papers are required, wallets with money and documents confiscated for further investigation. On borderline between Croatia and Serbia, police just get off the train and keep it all. No proof, except eyewitnesses. Police of course deny everything. Method 3. Popular in case of ethnic Serbs living in Croatia. Police break into houses, demolish everything, take everything of value shoot up the place (generally, nobody physically hurt) and just leave. Deny everything if required. This has been going on for months now, generally involving police (to a smaller extent) and armed HDZ (Croat Democratic Association) party members (few left unarmed). It is feared that Mr. Tudjman has opened Pandora's box by arming civilian members of his party. In effect, when the police are taken into account, this is most reminiscent of brownshirts and blackshirts in Germany in mid-thirties. People were afraid to testify later, but at this rate, they are willing to come forward more and more, even before TV cameras. SHOWS PREPARED FOR FOREIGN TV CREWS Reports are beginning to come in regarding Croatia's repetition of Slovenian tactics. The Croat police invite a foreign TV crew to come on a raid. But, the crew goes with the second group; the first is some time ahead. They capture a lone person or two (always men), dress them up in chetnik "uniforms" (chetniks had no official uniforms, relying mostly on Serbian national dress - DVV) and provide empty guns. Then they threaten the men to kill them if they don't play along; next follows the "brave capture" by Croatian police, with crew cameras whirring. Big triumph. Then you see two fat, old geezers, the younger one about 55, big belly, a farmer if I ever saw one. The other is very similar looking, but older. You'd think they could come up with two nice looking kids, handsome, big, about 25, not retired farmers. It's like shooting "Ben Hur" starring Sammy Davis Jr. REFUGEES FROM CROATIA GROW IN NUMBERS On last count, some 13,000 refugee ethnic Serbs, almost entirely women and children, have been taken care of in Serbia after fleeing for their lives across the Danube from the Vukovar, Borovo and Osijek regions. Only the elders have been left behind, while most men stay behind to fight for their homesteads. Mr. Branislav Crncevic, prominent Serbian author, who currently heads an organization called Association of Serbian Emigrants, stated that actual figures were estimated at around 20,000; a good part of refugees stays with relatives and family, and are hence not recorded. (NOTE: this organization is a non-profit non-political organization, based on donations and voluntary work - DVV). ITALIAN GOVERNMENT PRODUCES NEW ACCUSATIONS AGAINST CROATIA Italian government intelligence agency enlarged upon its claims that Croatia was engaged in drug dealing on a national level, as a policy to obtain money for purchase of arms. The prominent and respected Italian daily "La Stampa" now claims that Croatian official are in fact willingly pursuing this policy in two ways. One is buying and selling drugs for profit abroad, and the other is that drugs confiscated from smugglers on borders are now not destroyed, but in fact "recirculated", i.e. exported and sold for profit. *** NOTE: This only furthers old claims that the Croatian ruling party had strong ties with Albanian nationalists, who have been operating this kind of thing for years now. A lot of guns on Kosovo have been obtained in exactly the same manner. Furthermore, it is a well known fact, and was even officially recognized several years ago before "democracy" moved in that the Zagreb underground is dominated by ethnic Albanians, most especially the drug trafficking. DVV *** SLOVENIANS ALL OVER THE WORLD COMPUTER NETWORKS Messages sent by Slovenians can be found all over the world's computer networks, sometimes blatantly defying the purpose of such networks. For example, strictly academic networks where politics are barred, are now full of Slovenian messages, both from individuals and even their Ministry of Information. It is not understood why are such messages allowed even in places where there should be political messages; one wonders at such phenomena. LITHUANIAN PRESIDENT STATES SLOVENIA IS NOT LIKE LITHUANIA In a recent interview given to a French paper, Lithuanian president stated that Slovenia is not and can never be like Lithuania, insofar that Lithuania was an independent state before it was annexed by USSR, whereas Slovenia never had the status of an independent state. Therefore, Lithuania's struggle was to regain its lost status, while Slovenia is trying to gain a completely new status she never had before, and these two things can never be same, so no parallel exists. ***************************************************************** INTERVIEW WITH ALEKSANDAR MITROVIC, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER "Politika - The International Weekly", an edition of a weekly paper on English published in Belgrade, in its No.69 of July 13, brought an interview with Mr. Aleksandar Mitrovic, Deputy Prime Minister. I have edited (abbreviated) its overall contents, since it is rather long, but all quotations are complete and unabridged. "Q: Has Yugoslavia been turned over to a new nanny? A: Yugoslavia has become a protectorate of the European Community. This was made possible by the unilateral acts passed by Slovenia and Croatia which broke up the country. I am convinced that some other states are behind their moves, primarily Austria and Germany. We have to bear in mind that eight members of the Slovenian government have German citizenship. Are we discussing Yugoslavia with Germans or Slovenians?" ... ..."Q:Certain Slovenian officials have already said that no one contests Slovenia's independence? A: This will depend on our talks and agreement, and the constitution of the future Yugoslavia, whether we go our separate ways in peace, which is highly unlikely, whether the Slovenians will again want to start a war ... Q: Do you believe that Slovenia wants to stay in some kind of Yugoslav community? A: If the Slovenian people were asked, they probably would, because by entering an alliance with Austria and Germany they will loose their national identity, become Germanized ... Q: But, Slovenians voted at a plebiscite? A: They were tricked, and the question was "Are you for yourselves"? Who would say no to that?" ... **************************************************************** WAS SLOVENIA BETRAYED BY CROATIA? "...The sequence of the latest events has shown that the Croatian rulers were right and that the Slovenian "sacrifice" for a just cause paid dividends militarily as well as politically. Firstly, they realized (and it would be good if this were also realized by the neutral European observers) that the Yugoslav army did not go into military operations in Slovenia (any more than the tiny force of the federal police and customs officials), that the well prepared Slovenian territorial defence massacred the greenhorn recruits, that high treason among the top brass was uncovered, and that there is no hope that the army would again be caught with its pants down. Secondly, thanks to its Slovenian ally, Croatia found out that most of the European countries hold the view that frontiers in the old continent should not be unilaterally changed, that the last war's allies are still against the expansion of Germany's influence in the Balkans. Therefore, they čCroatia - DVVć simply stood on the sidelines in the conflict, rightly supposing that their reluctance would benefit them sooner or later. The Slovenes, on the other hand, will not forgive Croatia for not having pressed on with secession from Yugoslavia as they did, at any price. It did not even withdraw its athletes from the Mediterranean games in Athens, which Slovenia has rashly done, showing how senseless its conception of independence is. Croatia safely got off before the last stop, which does not necessarily mean that it will renounce its idea of leaving Yugoslavia. Its armed actions against the Serbian people within its own republic, the arming of paramilitary formations and the ignoring of all warnings that it should hold its horses all show that peace in this part of Yugoslavia is still very far off. Time will tell whether the Slovenians see the Croatian policy as justified or as a betrayal of their interests." (Aleksandar Vojvodic, "Politika - The International Weekly", No. 69, p.4, Belgrade, July 13-19) OFFICIAL COMMENT ISSUED BY SPS REGARDING MR. MESIC'S INTERVIEW PUBLISHED IN LONDON'S "THE EUROPEAN" " Mr. Mesic's statement given to London's "The European" is below all limits of elementary human behavior and political morale, and would not be worth even this comment if it didn't concern a man currently in the office of the President of the Presidency of the SFR Yugoslavia. This statement is in complete opposition with minimum principles which should be upheld by every politician. It is well known who in Yugoslavia greeted Hitler's and Mussolini's troops with ovations and as liberators, just as it is well known where today we have an upsurge of revived fascism and ustashas, and what are Mr. Mesic's personal contributions to all this. With regard to the repute of Mr. Slobodan Milosevic, President of the Republic of Serbia and to what Serbia's leaders, the Serbians and all people in Serbia are doing today, witness of this will surely not be borne by statements such as the one made by Mr. Mesic, but rather by what are the real democratic objectives of Serbia and what we are really doing. Mr. Mesic's fear of democracy is understandable, as are his fears of unity and harmony within Serbia, but that is a problem that he and others like him have to deal with." This statement was released today and is signed by Dr. Petar Skundric, Secretary General of the Socialist Party of Serbia (SPS). It was published in all Belgrade daily papers. "LE MONDE", PARIS: SLOVENIA WORKS FOR INTEREST NORTH OF THE ALPS In its July 13 issue, the reputable Parisian daily "Le Monde" claims that "Slovenia does not want to peacefully part with the
srbija.6 dveselinovic,
Tja, stalno zaboravljam na onaj limit. Najinteresantniji deo ću preneti u večerašnjem javljanju. Uzdravlje. 32XDVV
srbija.7 dveselinovic,
Evo i drugog dela koji je nedostajao: WHICH POWERS HOLD US ON TRIAL TODAY? "...At the end of WWII, when bolshevik power was firmly seated and victorious, Western allies threw the peoples of Eastern and Middle Europe into Stalin's lap. Nobody worried then whether their right to self-determination will and if so, how, be respected under the bolshevik boot. It was well known that comrade Stalin will efficiently resolve ethnic problems in his concentration camps. But, when bolshevism began to fall apart, all these peoples were called enslaved. The West fervently began to care about their fate and to mobilize the world against Russian imperialism. Much the same thing happened to us. While Tito was alive, not one western statesman wondered how were Albanians, Croatians and Slovenians taking communism, if they knew at all where on the globe these regions were. But with Tito gone, Western media began to show a daily interest, aiming for "Serbian hegemony". All this is going on as if the position of those peoples was quite bearable while communism terrorized them, and has become tragic when communism began to fall apart"... "...Changeable in time, the right to self-determination also depends on geographic location. The case of the Curds speaks well of this. Their rights change depending on the country they live in and local political conditions in any moment in time. The Iraqi Curds must be protected and aided because Iraq is an enemy of the West. Occasionally, one may speak of Curd troubles in Iran. But Curds living in Syria and Turkey should expect no favors. But this is one people which should enjoy the same rights. Alas! It should be understood that the political position of their masters differs. Syria and Turkey were on the allied side during the Gulf war, and Turkey provided very significant bases for Western allies..." "...When we read Western papers, we see that the Serbs are guilty both when they are the majority or a minority. As the largest among Yugoslav peoples, they are automatically suspected of hegemony and oppression of non-Serbian ethnic groups. And when it is shown that on an artificially bordered administrative territory, such as Kosovo and Metohija, the Serbs are a minority, then they are accused of holding, against all rules of democracy, the Albanian majority in virtual slavery. But, when the same question is put regarding Serbian minority in Croatia, where ethnic Serbs seek autonomy, then they are told that requests for autonomy cannot go down to infinitesimal and that such impossible requests are merely proof of Serbian hegemony. However you look at it, the Serbs are the guilty party. Why, gentlemen jurors, are we branded as hegemonists when we defend the autonomy of ethnic Serb minority in Croatia, while at the same time the entire West is defending autonomy, and if necessary secession of the Albanian minority on Kosovo? Simply put, the "democracy" the West has prepared for us would inevitably abandon a large group of Serbs to Tudjman, and another group would be abandoned to King Leka of Albania, both tried and proven enemies of Serbians. After such expulsion from the international community, Western politicians are surprised and object to the fact that the last elections were won by the communists. We all know that even among the communists who defend their positions there are few Serbs still believing in communism. But, what were the Serbs to do, so pushed to their limit, when due to circumstances, they have found themselves in a wasteland and with no way out? Is there anyone in the West who could comprehend their feeling of being let down?..." "...We could have, in 1912 when we liberated the Albanians from the Turks, hunted them down in forests like game and we could have wiped them out in a sort of a Balkan Wounded Knee. With only several machine guns, we could have killed men, women and children, after which, had our politicians abided by Machiavelli, we could have made movies about those heroic deeds of Serbian cowboys. In such a case, there would have been nobody who would have denied Serbs their rights on Kosovo and there would have been no meaningful Albanian minority. To the contrary, we would have been applauded in the world for our victory of the "civilized" cowboys over Indian "savages". But, in our parts, beside one Slobodan Jovanovic, nobody had read Machiavelli's "Ruler". To us, the Albanians remained, even as enemies, real people. So the Serbs entered newer history with medieval concepts of honor and dignity, finding themselves with their chivalry overnight surrounded by those who had long ago surpassed even Machiavelli..." Excerpts from a speech delivered by Dr. Marko Markovic, theologist, translator, lawyer and a political emigree in Birmingham, in the Church of St. Lazarus, before His Royal Majesty, Aleksandar Petrovic, heir to the throne, his family and others. Dr. Markovic currently resides in France. žovek je sve rekao, zar ne? 32XDVV
srbija.8 zonjic,
U svetlu Tudjmanove izjave o BiH hteo bih da vam kazem sta mislim. Mislim: Da je poslednja prilika da se poprave odnosi sa muslimanima! Srbijansko rukovodstvo gubeci kontakt sa sopstvenim (srpskim) narodom gubi i veze sa muslimanima u Srbiji i nehotice ih FALANGIRA! (Onaj zubar iz NP najavljuje vojne formacije!!!) Cinjenica je: U BiH i sire, blizi su nam muslimani od Hrvata! (religija je religija ali koreni su koreni) U ovoj vakuumskoj rupi sigurno nam ne trebaju (nacionalni) neprijatelji, a narocito ne oni koji nebi trebalo to da budu. Mislim da su muslimani shvatili da je floskula 'Dzamija i Gospa' odleprsala iz Banskih dvora i da su muslimani bili 'hrvatska moneta za potkusurivanje' (bas kao i siroti Sqiptari.
srbija.9 braca, -> #5, dveselinovic
>> More and more reports are pouring in regarding robberies in >> Croatia. There are three basic ways this is done. A u "oslobođenim krajevima" gde vlada Martićeva milicija niko nikog ne pljačka... >> Mr. Branislav Crncevic, prominent Serbian author, who who nije prošao na najobičnijim izborima za poslanika, a zna se i zašto. A autor je jedne od najprostačkijih serija poziva na mržnju ikad objavljene u našim novinama. >> (NOTE: this organization is a non-profit non-political >> organization, based on donations and voluntary work - DVV). isto koliko je i B. Crnčević "non-profit non-political" >> INTERVIEW WITH ALEKSANDAR MITROVIC, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER >> "Politika - The International Weekly", an edition of a weekly E ovo ti je pun pogodak! Jadna li je Srbija ako je to jedina istina koju svet preko Bix-a treba da čuje! >> OFFICIAL COMMENT ISSUED BY SPS REGARDING MR. MESIC'S INTERVIEW >> PUBLISHED IN LONDON'S "THE EUROPEAN" A što baš komentar SPS-a? Inače, ono je Mesiću bila jedna od pametnijih izjava.
srbija.10 dveselinovic, -> #9, braca
Ako imaš zamerke, izvoli ti pa na piši onako kako misliš da treba. Nemam ja nikakvu tapiju na bilo koji javni forum, prema tome, polje ti je otvoreno. Što se poruke tiče (u celini), ona predstavlja proste izvode iz štampe, ništa više. Svaki moj lični komentar je jasno označen kao takav, baš da bi se izbegla zabuna između javnog i ličnog. Za tvoju informaciju, Slowenzi to nikada ne rade, kod njih ne znaš gde prestahe zvanična a gde počinje lična poruka (ne da ima neke razlike). Dalje, 80% njihovih poruka na BIX-u su bile vesti sa radija, TV i iz novina, a klin se klinom izbija. Ja sam ih naterao da pređu na teren principa, odakle se evo koprcaju da izađu već mesec dana. S vremena na vreme ih malo izgađam onakvim izvodima iz štampe, tek da ih nateram da se brane. I to je suština stvari: oduzeo sam im inicijativu tukući ih njihovim sopstvenim oružijem. Zato idu te vesti, da bi ih održao u defanzivi. 32XDVV
srbija.11 vcalic,
Dobro je što je otvorena ova tema, ali mislim da bi u njoj trebalo diskutovati o odnosima unutar same Srbije, a ne o odnosima sa ostalim republikama bivše Jugoslavije. Recimo, da se sve lepo završi po Srbiju, da Srbija dobije sve srpske regije i izlazak na more (ne znam samo na kom to delu obale Srbi čine većinu, al' nije ni bitno). E, super, ajd sad da vidimo kako će to veliko srpsko ujedinjenje da se odrazi na nas jadne Srbe iz Srbije. Jer, dok svi vode računa o Srbima u Hrvatskoj, u Bosni, o jadnim Srbima iz srpske Mandžurije koju su okupirali velikokineski nacionalisti, niko ne misli na jadne i siromašne Srbe iz avnojske Srbije, koji su u tako jadnoj i bednoj situaciji da je to strašno. Kako ćemo mi podneti to ujedinjenje? Uzmite samo za primer ovogodišnju generaciju svršenih srednjoškolaca iz Beograda, koji ne mogu da se upišu na fakultet zbog dekreta republičkih vlasti o upisu velikog broja studenata iz ugroženih srpskih zemalja, iako je njihov stepen dosadašnjeg obrazovanja daleko iznad stepena ovih iz Hrvatske i Bosne. Razmislite malo kako propada silni potencijal koji ti klinci nose. Od ljudi koji su sa odličnim uspehom završili najelitnije beogradske srednje škole napravićemo fizičke radnike, a od pastirčića koji su dok su čuvali ovce završavali neke seoske gimnazije stvaramo intelektualce !? Pa pobogu ljudi kuda to idemo !? Ovo nije jedini primer, ima ih još mnogo, ali je prvi koji mi je pao na pamet, i čini mi se dovoljno upečatljiv i bolan, da nekoga natera na razmišljanje. WR
srbija.12 balinda,
Još jedna od negativnih posledica (buduće?) usamljene Srbije je i činjenica da će se graničiti *samo* sa bivšim komunističkim državama. :( Do sada je situacija za *građane* Srbije bila daleko povoljnija. Moglo se sasvim opravdano smatrati da su se i građani Srbije graničili sa, makar, dvema normalnim državama (mislim na Austriju i Italiju). Nakon "naše" samodovoljničke politike bićemo amortizovani i Evropu ćemo udaljiti za još 1000 km. Možda će neko misliti da je reč samo o teoriskim razglabanjima. (?) Međutim, verujem da neće proći mnogo vremena pa će te videti kako će se sve teže (čitaj: skuplje) dolaziti do svakolike inostrane robe (uključujući i kompjutersku) O ostalim vezama (intelektualnim, umetničkim, naučnim, .... da i ne govorim) To će imati još jednu lošu stranu. Domaći proizvođači moći će samo zarad zatvorenosti srpskog tržišta ponovo da nam sišu krv svojim nenormalno visokim cenama i svojim nemoralno niskim kvalitetom. Eto šta je nama naša borba dala. :)
srbija.13 dejanr, -> #10, dveselinovic
>> Ja sam ih naterao da pređu na teren principa, odakle se evo koprcaju >> da izađu već mesec dana. >> I to je suština stvari: oduzeo sam im inicijativu tukući ih >> njihovim sopstvenim oružijem. Zato idu te vesti, da bi ih održao u >> defanzivi. Xexe, kako se to lepo kaže "blago firmi u kojoj su svi zadovoljni. Koliko čujem, Slovenci su (u međusobnim razgovorima) oduševljeni što su "najzad pokazali koliko Srbi nemaju argumenata" i kako "čim počne argumentovana diskusija, ceo svet vidi kako Srbi nemaju šta da kažu". Vidim da je i sa druge strane zadovoljstvo jednako, kao i komentari. No zanimljivo bi bilo znati šta o tome svemu misle Amerikanci koji to čitaju (a kojih na žalost nema previše). Na žalost, ne znam kako to da saznamo, jedini od njih sa kojim sam nešto malo kontaktirao (moneysmith, moderator) očigledno samo skuplja ljude iz konferencije za neki svoj projekat...
srbija.14 dejanr, -> #11, vcalic
>> E, super, ajd sad da vidimo kako će to veliko srpsko ujedinjenje da >> se odrazi na nas jadne Srbe iz Srbije. Jer, dok svi vode računa o >> Srbima u Hrvatskoj, u Bosni, o jadnim Srbima iz srpske Mandžurije >> koju su okupirali velikokineski nacionalisti, niko ne misli na >> jadne i siromašne Srbe iz avnojske Srbije, koji su u tako jadnoj i >> bednoj situaciji da je to strašno. Kako ćemo mi podneti to >> ujedinjenje? Jes vala! Ja sam apsolutno za to da Srbi u Hrvatskoj i drugim krajevima omogući samoopredeljenje i izdvajanje iz Hrvatske ako se Hrvatska otcepi od YU, ali se nadam da će neko i nas u Srbiji pitati jesmo li za to da se sa njima ujedinimo. A što se mene tiče, ja uopšte nisam ubeđen da bi to NAMA odgovaralo.
srbija.15 iboris, -> #11, vcalic
>> Razmislite malo kako propada silni potencijal koji ti klinci nose. Od ljudi >> koji su sa odlicnim uspehom zavrsili najelitnije beogradske srednje skole >> napravicemo fizicke radnike, a od pastircica koji su dok su cuvali ovce >> zavrsavali neke seoske gimnazije stvaramo intelektualce !? Pa pobogu ljudi >> kuda to idemo !? Ovo sam malo izvadio iz konteksta , ali ce mi dobro posluziti da otvorim jos jednu temu. Naime , ja sam za to da se skolovanje placa. Evo i kako : na pocetku akademske godine , svi studenti po- loze depozit u visini skolarine koja je odredjena za dati fakultet. Na pocetku sledece godine onima koji su uspesno zavrsili proteklu godinu, te pare ce se vratiti uvecani za kamatu, koja ce se odrediti na nivou koji je primeren datom trenutku. Posto bi se tako skupila prilicna suma novca, moglo bi se ulagati taj novac u projekte i tako ga oploditi. Za jednu godinu se moze obrnuti minimum 4 puta, tako da ce se od profita moci isplatiti bar jedno 200 stipendija najboljim studentima. Oni koji padnu godinu,naravno gube taj novac,a oni koji po drugi put padnu godinu gube pravo na studiranje i placaju duplo! Zbog ovoga sam se ja "zakrvio" sa nekoliko asistenata na mom fakultetu,jer kazu da sam suvise radikalan. Ja mislim da ce ovo biti jedan od nacina da se samo najbolji skoluju na fakultetima i da imaju svu komociju i najbolje moguce uslove za studiranje. Suvise je siromasna republika Srbija da bi sebi mogla da dozvoli da finansira skolovanje "vecitih studenata". I studenti iz drugih republika MORAJU da placaju svoje skolovanje. Zasto da neko dolazi iz Nisa u Bgd. da studira , kad ima fakultet 'pred nosom' ili zasto da dolaze iz Titograda a isto tako imaju svoj univerzitet.
srbija.16 iboris, -> #12, balinda
>> Jos jedna od negativnih posledica (buduce?) usamljene Srbije je i >> cinjenica da ce se graniciti *samo* sa bivsim komunistickim drzavama. :( Koliko ja znam Juzna Srbija bi trebala da se granici sa Grckom. A Grcka bas i nije neka "bivsa komunisticka zemlja"
srbija.17 zolika,
Mislim da se Sezam bas nije usrecio sa otvaranjem ove teme. Cini mi se da nece biti bas omiljena medju clanovima Sezama iz Hrvatske i Slovenije, a za ono sto se zeli kazati u ovoj temi smatram da je sasvim dovoljna i tema JUGOSLAVIJA (pa makar je smatrali za "bivsu" i "prezivelu").
srbija.19 balinda, -> #16, iboris
>> Koliko ja znam Juzna Srbija bi trebala da se granici sa Grckom. >> A Grcka bas i nije neka "bivsa komunisticka zemlja" Južna Srbija?
srbija.20 iboris, -> #17, zolika
>> Mislim da se Sezam bas nije usrecio sa otvaranjem ove teme. Cini mi >> se da nece biti bas omiljena medju clanovima Sezama iz Hrvatske i Slovenije, >> a za ono sto se zeli kazati u ovoj temi smatram da je sasvim dovoljna i tema >> JUGOSLAVIJA (pa makar je smatrali za "bivsu" i "prezivelu"). Nema problema . Mozemo otvoriti temu Hrvatska ili Slovenija. Samo se plasim da ce ragovori i ovde biti vrlo slicni kao i u temama Srbija i Jugoslavija.
srbija.21 iboris, -> #19, balinda
>> >> Koliko ja znam Juzna Srbija bi trebala da se granici sa Grckom. >> >> A Grcka bas i nije neka "bivsa komunisticka zemlja" >> Juzna Srbija? Da , Juzna Srbija , ili kako to neki jos zovu-Makedonija.
srbija.22 dveselinovic, -> #17, zolika
Pa ne moraju da čitaju ako im je neugodno. Ali, ko velim, kada se oni odcepljuju, valjda mi imamo pravo da bar razgovaramo o našoj zemlji. A ako nekome to smeta, neka ne čita. Zar demokratija ne važi i za nas, iako smo Sbri? 32XDVV
srbija.23 dveselinovic, -> #13, dejanr
Valjda zato i nema više Slowenaza u FINANCIAL/EAST.EUROPE od jednog jadnog Matije, koji se još uvek koprca. neće ni on dugo. A onda prelazim na deratizaciju konferencije FINANCIAL/LONG.MESSAGES. Posle - ko zna, možda DECNET, IBMNET, the sky's the limit. Stani bre, pa i mi konja za trku imamo. U vezi argumenata; daj Imenjače majke ti prenesi onaj deo sa izvodima Kučanovih govora i matijin komentar, pa nek' ljudi sami prosude o kakvim se "argumentima" radi. 32XDVV
srbija.24 zddb,
Šaljem vrlo zanimljive .PCX slike. Zanima me vaša reakcija. Zoran D. Brkić srbuj.zip
srbija.25 zonjic,
Mislim da bi ovo trebalo ovde da se nadje: To je doprinos ljudi sa ETFa informisanju svetske javnosti: TO ALL COLLEAGUES INTERESTED IN THE SITUATION IN YUGOSLAVIA FROM PROFESSORS AND GRADUATE STUDENTS OF THE UNIVERSITY OF BELGRADE, FACULTY OF ELECTRICAL ENGINEERING Professors and students of Electrical Engineering Faculty, University of Belgrade, are very disappointed by information and news broadcasted by western TV studios about the pattern that has been established over their fatherland Serbia. Namely, we think that these news are burdened with prejudices that the Serbian people are all communists and so on, despite of the fact that in the western Yugoslav republics (Croatia and Slovenia) now are in power either Tito's generals or well-recognized communist leaders in the past. If the democracy is to be reconstructed in our fatherland Yugoslavia, it could be done primarily in Serbia due to a long democracy tradition existing here before the communist dictatorship. Namely, about 30% of Serbian inhabitants died during the First World War struggling for human rights, and 1.7 millions of Serbs were killed by Croatian nazis during the Second World War. Consequently, the miserable situation established here has nothing in common with the political inclination of these or other of Yugoslav citizens; but, it is rather the question of hate with respect to "Orthodox Serbs". Therefore, we appeal on all, students and academic citizens, from all over the World to grasp and understand the Serbian people and their suffering. Hundreds of thousands of our people have already escaped from Croatia, Slovenia, and Bosnia because they are afraid to be killed personaly or with complete families only because they are Serbs. At the same time, citizens of Serbia of non-Serbian origins live in our home republic Serbia safely and as friends. We would like to let you know about the main disinformation appearing these days about us, and to give you contemporary and historical facts that can be easily confirmed. 1. News: "Republic of Serbia is the last bastion of communism..." Facts: In Yugoslavia, communism was established by non-Serbians (Josip Broz-Tito, Edvard Kardelj, Vladimir Bakaric, Fadil Hoxha, etc.) Moreover, among six comminist parties within Yugoslav republics, the Serbian communist party was founded last, even after the War. In the early 70's, when Serbian democraticaly oriented polititians (Marko Nikezic, Latinka Perovic, well known writer Dobrica Cosic and other intelectual Serbians) tried to oppose communists, they have been either arrested or completely eliminated from the scene. At the same time, numerous members of Serbian royal dynasty are still scattered all over the world without an opportunity even to visit their fatherland due to opposition of Croatian and Slovenian communists now installed at the Federal Government. 2. News: "Serbian nationalists make western Yugoslav republics unstable..." Facts: Of nearly 24 millions of Yugoslav citizens, about 12 millions are of Serbian origin. Only 8 millions of them live in their home republics (Serbia and Montenegro), 4 millions of them live in Croatia, Bosnia, and Macedonia, within artificial borders created by Croatian communist Tito and his fellows instructed in Moscow. Now, his successors would like to legalize the Cominterna artificial borders between republics in order to convert Serbian people into national minorities and in such a way to destroy their national feelings as they already tried to do during the Second World War by support of Nazis movement. How the World could now complain the wish of our people to live together and to struggle against the situation similar to that 50 years ago, when they were subjected to the genicide; unfortunately this genocide starts once again in Croatia. These days in Croatia, former pro-fashist collaborators (Ustashas) are in power. Croatian government invited Croatian war criminals from abroad, who arrest un-armed, innocent Serbian people and put them into camps frighteningly simmilar to those reserved for Jews during the War. Whenever Serbian people, citizens of Croatia, try to oppose, they declare them as terrorists. Therefore, Serbian people have no other way but to admit extreme measures, even a civil war, if neccesary, in order to save their very lives and lives of their families. Recall, 1.5 millions of Serbs, mostly women and children, were killed in Croatia and Bosnia during the Second World War, in various horrifying manners. Now, Croatian government closed the museum of Jasenovac, the greatest concetration camp in Croatia where 700000 Serbs and Jews were slaughtered, in order to brush out esteems and memories. Serbian people living within artificial borders of Tito's Croatia are affraid that the Jasenovac museum is closed also in order to put the camp in function again. 3. News: "Yugoslav army has occupied Slovenia..." Facts: Yugoslav prime minister Ante Markovic, Federal staff commander Veljko Kadijevic, Federal President Stipe Mesic, and Federal minister of foreign affairs Budimir Loncar all are of Croatian origin. Thus, the orders to Yugoslav army were delivered exceptionally by Croatians. The army only tried to reach the Yugoslav borders passing through Slovenia with strict order to hold the fire in all cases. The troops involved consisted of approximately 2000 young soldiers, 18 to 19 years old, and with less that 3 months of millitary training; furtermore, this innocent children were betrayed by their commanders-Croatian and Slovenian officers. Untrained young soldiers then were easily disarmed by 38000 proffesionals of Slovenian Militia and put in camps like criminals without food and water. Many of wounded soldiers died because Slovenian Militia didn't allow doctors and Red Cross officers to approach them. Their parents still pray God for life of their innocent children. We appeal on Yugoslav citizens in abroad and their friends around to support us in our wish to enable all Yugoslavs to reconstruct democracy and especially to enable Serbian people to live together in the future Yugoslavia respecting human rights and democracy tradition. As far as the Serbian people are considered, we promise our contribution to love for all people regardless to religion, nationality, and race. We pray God to save us from being once again exposed to extermination planned by ex-comminists and pro-fashist followers. Please, proceed this message to your friends. Autorized: Professors M.R. Stojic, J. Surutka, S.N. Vukosavic, V. Vuckovic, S. Marjanovic, B. Milisavljevic, D. Rajkovic, V.M. Bozovic, B. Lazic, D. Zivkovic.
srbija.26 ivujanic,
U drugom dnevniku ni reči o dogovoru Vožda i Mićuna (i ostalih) da Zelenko odjaše sa scene. Izgleda da će morati da se ponovi 9.mart! Ivica P.S. ako Vožd učini još koji ovako pametan korak, još ću i glasati za njega ;)))
srbija.27 balinda, -> #21, iboris
>> Da, Juzna Srbija, ili kako to neki jos zovu-Makedonija. A, ta "južna Srbija". :))) A kako to misliš da ostvariš? Tenkovima? P.S. Možda da napravimo i zapadnu Srbiju i ultra zapadnu Srbiju. :)
srbija.28 zonjic,
< Predlog za razmisljanje > > Moderno doba je doba racionalnosti. Drustvene ustanove i nacin > organizovanja celokupnog drustvenog zivota moraju poloziti ispit > pred sudom razuma. Nije to uvek racionalnost ciljeva: velika sla- > bost nase epohe je razdvajanje politike, etike i nauke. Ovo je citat iz 'memoranduma' CAHY (od pre pola decenije). Ja mislim da ce tek kada se iz Srbije odstrane komunisti sa svojim metodima regulisanja drustvenog zivota moci da se govori o zdravom drustvu. Mehanizmi kojima se oni sluze ne samo da nisu racionalni nego i, u za narod najpresud- nija vremena, izostaju ili STRAHOVITO kasne. Kada se iz srbijanskog (a mozda i srpskog) politickog zivota budu odstranili nosioci takve nakazne neracionalno-inertne politike moci ce da se govori o nastavljanju srpske demokratske tradicije, u krvi ugusene od strane komunista (predaka danasnjih srbijanskih, a narocito hrvatskih mocnika) u vreme gradjan- skog rata 41-45 i osobito posle njega ( u periodu 'izgradnje nove drzave'). Mi znamo kome je ta nova drzava trebala. Trebala je jednoj maloj grupi pro- palih studenata, lopova, razvratnika, za sticanje vlasti za kojom su toliko zudeli (vlasti nad ljudima, nad drugima...) i trebala je Hrvatima i Slovencima. Pri tome ne mislim na Hrvate i Slowenze kao narod u celini, vec na jedan nje- gov deo, na elitu politickog, verskog i privrednog zivota. (Hrvate je samo II sv rat sprecio u ostvarivanju nacionalnog programa - Kraljevinu su bili gotovo raskomadali!) Danas bi trebalo da budemo dovoljno inteligentni da shvatimo: da je Jugoslavi- ja, barem ova socijalisticka, jedna velika ILUZIJA; da priznamo pravo Hrvatima kao narodu u celini da budu 'svoji na svome'; da mnogo lakse i bezbolnije priznamo to isto Slowenzima; da po cenu oruzanog sukoba ogromnih razmera brani- mo CEO SVOJ NAROD i omogucimo mu gornje pravo, ako vec Hrvati ne zele, bar kao gest reciprociteta i dobre volje - a mi smo njima i izvojevali i pred silama pobednicama odbranili i servirali MNOGO VISE; da se okrenemo radu i samima sebi. Da bismo pravovremeno reagovali, da nebismo casili ni casa, da bismo bili sposobni da preuzmemo na sebe istorijsku odgovornost (vreme je izgleda poput onog 1918te) moramo sa svojih cela skinuti petokraku, a sa vlasti skinuti tu amorfnu inertnu masu i posle pola veka jednako pohlepnu vlasti radi vlasti, beskrupuloznu poput svojih kolega i dojucerasnjih istomisljenika i poznanika sa raznih kongresa iz Hrvatske i Slowenie. Nadam se da ce danas doci do kakve takve promene u Vladi Republike Srbije, i da ljudi koji nisu sakupili 50% glasova nece imati 100 posto vlasti. I na kraju, jedno OPTIMISTICKO uverenje: Do promena mora doci, kad-tad. Ako ne danas, onda sutra kad moja generacija bude u svojim zrelim godina (na svom vrhuncu) stupila na 'vlast', u privredu, kulturu, nauku. Mozda ne znamo kakvi su bas pogledi te (i tih) generacija, ali znamo KAKVI NISU. Takodje VELIKI sam optimista za Srbiju i njen narod (ne samo za Srbe!!!). Imam razloga za to jer NIGDE DRUGO U JUGOSLAVIJI nema tako dobrih i REALNIH uslova za razvoj (NASTAVAK TRADICIJE) demokratije: Ni u NEO-NAZI-COMMUNIST Hr- vatskoj, ni u NEO-COMMUNIST Sloweniji sa Goebelsovskim medijima. Na kraju krajeva, na lazima se buducnost ne moze izgraditi. Yours sincerely, Radivoje Zonjic
srbija.29 dejanr, -> #23, dveselinovic
>> U vezi argumenata; daj Imenjače majke ti prenesi onaj deo sa >> izvodima Kučanovih govora i matijin komentar, pa nek' ljudi sami >> prosude o kakvim se "argumentima" radi. Na žalost, više neće ići. Matija se bunio što se njegove poruke re-emituju na Sezamu pa od toga moram da odustanem. A ako ne prenosim njegove, onda nema mnogo smisla prenositi i ostale. Dakle... BIX košta $160 godišnje :(
srbija.30 dveselinovic, -> #29, dejanr
Bunio se? Boga ti? Ma da se nije utrtario da mu odavde neko ne vikne Šešelja i jednu zahrđalu kašiku, maksuz tupu? :)))))))))))))))))) Bog te video, nemaju tri čiste ni javno da kažu šta imaju. Beda i mizerija. Inače, slažem se da ako se ne prenese njegova poruka, nema smisla ni druge. OK, rešićemo to na drugi način. 32XDVV
srbija.32 ivujanic, -> #29, dejanr
>Na žalost, više neće ići. Matija se bunio što se njegove poruke >re-emituju na Sezamu pa od toga moram da odustanem A možda on i ne može da se buni. Da li si probao da dobiješ dozvolu od sysadm-a? Ako oni dozvole, može da se buni koliko hoće... Ivica
srbija.33 dveselinovic, -> #32, ivujanic
Tamo, preko bare, to nije ni malo jednostavan proces. Naravno, možeš da dobiješ dozvolu, ali to košta; za razliku od nas, oni javno priznaju da ih pare mnogo zanimaju, a još više za razliku od nas, oni su zarađivanje para institutcionalizovali. To su dve lekcije koje mi tek treba da savladamo; dotle, mnogo toga će ići na mito i korupciju. 32XDVV
srbija.34 zonjic,
Evo vec duze vreme slusam od ljudi koje poznajem o nekakvoj zaostalosti srpskog naroda. Moram da pustim glas iz grla protiv toga! Zaista sam (ne onako romanticarski) siguran da NISMO ZAOSTAO NAROD. Mogao bih sada da pocnem sa 'komparativnim prednostima' u odnosu na okolne (bratske li nam?) narode, ali mislim da je to sve vec vidjeno. U svakom slucaju, ako krenem od nas samih necu ih moci mimoici... Srbi JESU nacionalno svesni. To uopste nije lose. Mozda je ta svest bila korisnija u srednjem veku (kada smo bili jedini nacionalno svestan narod na ovim prostorima-sticajem okolnosti i moguceg istrebljenja), ali ni sada se te svesti ne treba olako odricati. Mozda je treba skloniti iz tog primarnog, najvaznijeg dela nase svesti, ali je se ne treba odricati. A u tom ukidanju primarnosti smo DEFINITIVNO u mnogo, mnogo boljem polozaju nego nacionalno iskompleksirane susedne nacije (ili bar njihova vrhuska). Mislim da ce se ta isforsirana nacionalna odredjenost kod Srba prva povuci u normalne okvire CIM SE OVA AGONIJA ZAVRSI. Pod agonijom mislim na nekoliko stvari: 1] na komunisticku vlast u Srbiji (samo da ne bude sto bi rekao Wordsworth o prvoj simpatiji : "Which having been, must ever be" :-} ); 2] na (napokon) ostvarivanje tih nesretnih nacionalnih programa malih naroda u blizini (to ce se definitivno desiti, nase je, samo, da zastitimo ljude koji na pravdi Boga mogu da stradaju, samo zato sto su Srbi ili ne misle isto) kao i, na duze vreme, jednog velikog naroda. 3] na vakuum u radnom mentalitetu (elanu?) koji sada vlada. Srbi su PODJEDNAKO RADNI I VREDNI kao ma ko drugi (izuzev Japanaca :-} ) i ne verujem da ce se onaj od strane dnevno-politickih Slovenaca forsirani stereotip o gotovanima uvreziti. Ne mislim da nam je buducnost ugrozena, samo treba forsirati rad i omoguciti pojedincu POKUSAJ sto bi D.Sakan (Saatchi&Saatchi) rekao stizanja do miliona ($) godisnje. Ima tu jos par drugih stvari koje ne zavise samo od nas, ali sam uveren da imamo lepo mesto pod Suncem. NE SAMO SRBI, NEGO SVI KOJI OVDE ZIVIMO! Stoga, balinda i drugi: FEAR NOT! /dobicemo mi njih/
srbija.35 balinda, -> #34, zonjic
>> Ne mislim da nam je buducnost ugrozena, samo treba forsirati >> rad i omoguciti pojedincu POKUSAJ sto bi D.Sakan (Saatchi&Saatchi) >> rekao stizanja do miliona ($) godisnje. Ima tu jos par drugih >> stvari koje ne zavise samo od nas, ali sam uveren da imamo lepo >> mesto pod Suncem. NE SAMO SRBI, NEGO SVI KOJI OVDE ZIVIMO! >> >> Stoga, balinda i drugi: FEAR NOT! >> >> /dobicemo mi njih/ I ja tako mislim, ali vidiš da se ne ostvaruju uslovi koje pominješ. :( Evo i na Sezamu se *otvoreno* zagovara jedinstvo srpskog naroda u ime opšte ugroženosti. (Na stranu što bi trebalo biti pod komunistima - osvedočenih demokrata ;)). Dakle, i ljubljeni slogan SSSS, na koji su Srbi jako ponosni, teško se može oceniti demokratskim pozivom. (?) Možda je nekad i bilo moguće oceniti ga naprednim jer su vremena bila nacionalna. Ova vremena su nadnacionalna i trebalo bi još dosta poraditi da postanu individualna. No, vraćanje na kolektivitet (bilo koje vrste) nije ništa drugo da vraćanje nazad jer se nema snage za skok unapred. U ime srpsta (a pod okrivljem tobožnje demokratije!?) jedinke se imaju podvesti u naciju. Dakle ništa drugo do fašizam. žudi me da niko ne citira našeg genijalnog istoričara Milorada Ekmečića: "Demokratija je blanko potpis na nejedinstvo. Nasuprot tome, u svakoj kodifikovanoj nacionalističkoj ideologiji postoje zahtevi za jedinstvom naroda kao homogene celine. Okupljanje cele nacije i pomirenje racepljenih delova je najblaži oblik fašizma u rudimentarnom i sirovom stanju u kojem izgleda da je progresivan pokret."
srbija.36 lola, -> #34, zonjic
Srbi jesu zaostao narod. Naravno, kada se porede sa Makedoncima, Bosancima, Crnogorcima, Hrvatima moze da se kaze i da nisu. Ali mi uvek implicitno kao reper za poredjenje koristimo razvijen svet (Evropa, Usa, ..). Cinjenica je da su zaostali, a sto mozemo da nadjemo slicne ili gore ne znaci nista. Ni to sto bi mi voleli da nisu i sto herojski odbijamo to da priznamo, takodje, ne znaci nista. Ni to sto mi znamo da su za zaostalost Srba krivi komunisti (oni koji su se onoliko pajtali sa Hitlerom na pocetku rata - valjda zbog razlicitisto pogleda na svet i koji ce nas uskoro povesti u rat za sirenje komunisticke blagodeti po Balkanu) nista ne menja. To je kao ono pismo sa Etf-a: "Srbija nije boljsevicka, jer su nam boljsevizam nametnuli Tito i Kardelj". Negiraju ga tako sto ga priznaju. A Srbi ce uci u istoriju kao jedini narod u istoriji koji je na slobodnim izborima birao komuniste. Kako da ocekujemo da SVET zaboravi takav biser i to tako brzo kao sto ga mi zaboravljamo. I da zaboravi ko sedi u srpskom parlamentu i ko nam je predsednik i kako izgleda srpska politika. Sa obzirom da ovde diskutuju programeri nadao sam se da cu cesce vidjati rec Evropa, Svet, tehnologija, ekonomija, slobodno trziste. Izgleda da je sve to pobeglo u trube od kako se vijore barjaci. Svaka cast upornima koji se uprkos svemu bore za razum (Kale, Balinda, Dejanr).
srbija.37 dveselinovic, -> #35, balinda
E Balinda, sada bre baš pretera. Ispada da ti želiš ono što je još Šekspir onda (?) izrekao mišlju: "No man is an island". Ti si se iz petnih žila napeo da dokažeš upravo suprotno, da svi treba da budemo pojedinci da bismo bili demokratčni; po tebi, bilo kakvo okupljanje više od dva lica je negacija demokratije, jer posebnos svake jedinke više ne može da dođe do izražaja. Daj boga ti malo spusti durbin; kakva vajda od demokratičnosti kada si okružen drugim, tebi nalik plemenima koja se spremaju da te onako malo, sasvim nedemokratski (?) prikolju? Ti ne vidiš (?) da se Hrvati iz sve snage spremaju za rat; protiv koga, Slowenaza? Ili Italije? Pa kada neko nekoga zakolje, mi treba, da ne bismo gubili demokratičnost, da mu pripretimo prstom, i možda, ako je zaklano više od nekoliko stotina duša, da dodamo" "No, no, sram te bilo, nevaljali mali!". 32XDVV
srbija.38 dveselinovic, -> #36, lola
Ko kaže da se na ovim prostorima ne razmišlja o Evropi, o novim tehnologijama i organizaciji rada? Eto, Slowenzi su potrčali u okrilje Evrope tako što su brate sami, lepo i demokratčno, izmenili granice sebi, a onako usput i ostatku Jugoslavije, koji sad nije predstavljen u njihovom parlamentu, pa eto niko nije bilo da se buni. Šteta. HRvati su opet razvijali tehnologiju, jer su izbacili novi model oklopnog transportera, model za 1991. Može i na rate. Isti su potpuno reorganizovali neke svoje jedinice, jer su zaključili da su neefikasne. Mnogo rada i para je na to otišlo, ali valjda će i to unaprediti nauku organizacije rada, koju nam je JNA pokazala kako ne treba raditi. A naši humanisti u parlamentu su diskutovali za to vreme dal' opet da maznu po dinar i po za litar benzina; vele, nema dosta para, treba još. Današnji zemljotres u Rumuniji nas je opet zbližio sa prirodom, podsećajući nas da je i ona još uvek tu, na radost i veselje Zelene stranke, koja je pozelenila od tvrdnji da je priroda živa uprkos svim našim naporima da je ukokamo. A ti ovde nešto zakeraš. Baš si nezahvalan. 32XDVV
srbija.39 balinda, -> #37, dveselinovic
>> E Balinda, sada bre baš pretera. >> ..... >> po tebi, bilo kakvo okupljanje više od dva lica je negacija >> demokratije, jer posebnos svake jedinke više ne može da >> dođe do izražaja. "Svaka čast" na tumačenju. Kako iz mojih zalaganja izlazi ovakva krajnost? No, upornost mi nije slaba strana što (na svoj užas! :))) sezamovci jako dobro znaju. žak i tvoje iskrivljeno gledanje ne potire smisao mojih zalaganja. (?) Mogao bih se (makar "filozofski"!?) i složiti sa tvojim tumačenjem. Zaista i skup dve jedinke je negacija demokratije. I zaista svaka od jedinki ne može doći do potpunog izražaja. No, smisao diskusija na Sezamu valjda nije u tome da tražimo granične slučajeve ne bi li se makar tako pobili stavovi koji nam nisu bliski?. Do sada sam bio ubeđen da je reč o zajedničkoj potrazi istine (ima li je?) a ne pobijanje sagovornika po svaku cenu. Ponekad, kada sam posebno idealistički razpoložen, ;))) ponadam se Ničeovom zalaganju da se neistomišljeniku dâ "svetlo oružje", osobodivši njegovo neslaganje "svake mrlje i slučajnosti" pa tek se onda boriti protiv njega. Ne u (direktnoj!) vezi sa ovim gore ali BTW; sa žaljenjem počinjem da sumnjam da se *I* na Sezamu ne izvodi konkluzija iz premisa već se traže premise za fiksiranu konkluziju. :( U tom smislu "borba mišljenja" postaje "smišljena borba". :(((
srbija.40 balinda, -> #37, dveselinovic
>> Daj boga ti malo spusti durbin; kakva vajda od demokratičnosti >> kada si okružen drugim, tebi nalik plemenima koja se spremaju >> da te onako malo, sasvim nedemokratski (?) prikolju? Dva moja neslaganja. Prvo, ne osećam se pripadnikom ni jednog plemena. (Tu je možda suština naših nerazumevanja?) I drugo, pada li ti na pamet da je i njima servirano da se mi spremamo da ih "onako malo, sasvim nedemokratski prikoljemo"? Odnosno, kako misliš da sprečiš da te ne prikolju? Da ti prikolješ njih? Ne kažem da moja zalaganja imaju ikakvog učinka. (?) Smatram da bi bilo mnogo srećnije da i tamo ima ljudi koji neće slušati svoje "DVV-e". No, čak i bez toga, kako bi rekao veliki Fihte: "Istina se mora reći, pa neka se svet i razleti u komade." Naravno, Niče dodaje: "Da! Da! Ali morali bismo je i posedovati." :)
srbija.41 lola, -> #38, dveselinovic
Jeste, zakeram. Da imam vecu moc radio bih i vise. Mozak mi odbija da predje na PS. Takodje se trudim da ne izgubim kriticnost prema svom (nebeskom) narodu. Pamcenje mi nije tako kratko da se ne secam njegove uloge u ovom haosu. Gledao sam (sa strane) kako u posledjnjih nekoliko godina i njegove poglavice rasturaju Jugoslaviju, svadjaju nas sa svetom i prave zidove oko svoje prcije. Najradije bi nas preneli na Mars, da im se svet ne mesa u idilu sa narodom (mada sumnjam da bi i tamo mogli bez arhineprijatelja i zavere). Svi jednaki (samo oni koji treba jednakiji), svi ujedinjeni, svi slozni. "Samo sloga Srbina spasava", o pameti ni pomena u Srba. U saglasju sa poglavicama susednih plemena na domaku su da ostvare svoje divne vizije. Narod se vec navikao na ideju rata, pa shodno tome razmislja u kategorijama ratne vlade i privrede, tackica i bonova (uskoro i raspustene skupstine, zabranjene (defetisticke) opozicije, prekih sudova, a na ekoloskom planu passa korenja i lekovitih trava). Studenti i profesori, softverasi i hardverasi, radnici i seljaci ... svako na svoj nacin i u svojim mogucnostima pomaze rezim koji se poistovetio sa narodom. Ukljucujemo se u propagandi rat na njihovoj strani. Radimo bez plata. Mrzimo sve njihove neprijatelje. A trebalo bi da je upravo suprotno. Imamo sve razloge da se bunimo protiv nesposobnih. Da pojacamo antiratnu kampanja. Da intenziviramo napore za rusenje boljsevika. Zakeraj Dejane i ti.
srbija.42 zonjic,
Istina je izmedju Chetnika i anacionalnih japija. Ja bih zeleo da (probam da) uticem na ove potonje, posto mislim da su efekti njihovih dela jaci. /sledi uticanje.../ :-} Meni je pre par nedelja dopala ruku knjiga o istoriji Vasojevica (crnogorsko 'pleme') u kojoj sam procitao kako je neki moj predak na rec dosao kod nekih Pasica ili Pasovica (vec se ne secam...) i kako su ga oni vezali za stub i sa (valjda) 50tak kursuma ubili. Samo zato sto je bio Srbin! Ja se nadam da svi shvatamo koliko je bilo tih Pasica ili Pasovica koji su ponekad nosili kriz i slovo U, koliko iz istog mesta, koliko... Ako sada krenemo jednim urbano-intelektualnim, valjda to po nekima znaci i anacionalnim putem zakljucivanja, valjda shvatamo da su ti ljudi bili (let's say) ugrozavani. Ugrozavani zbog svima zajednickog obelezja - jedne evolucione rekurzije - rodjenja od strane roditelja koji su opet rodjeni od strane roditelja ... koji su SRBI! Ja apelujem na ljude kojima je ovaj nacin rezonovanja blizak da ovako rezonuju i da, zahvaljujuci eticnom u sebi stanu u zastitu tih ljudi koji su, sasvim slucajno, Srbi. Ubedjen sam da je ovakav put korektan!
srbija.43 zonjic, -> #41, lola
> Takodje se trudim da ne izgubim kriticnost prema svom > (nebeskom) narodu. Pamcenje mi nije tako kratko da se ne secam > njegove uloge u ovom haosu. Gledao sam (sa strane) kako u posledjnjih > nekoliko godina i njegove poglavice rasturaju Jugoslaviju, svadjaju > nas sa svetom i prave zidove oko svoje prcije. Meni ovo malo nelogicno zvuci: Govori se o ulozi naroda u ovom haosu, a onda se pobrajaju (zlo)dela KOMUNISTICKOG RUKOVODSTVA. Ja govorim o onom narodu koji je videvsi marsovce 9. marta NASTAVIO SA NANOSENJEM UDARACA KOMUNISTIMA. To je valjda onaj isti narod koji NAM je davao podrsku 11. marta. To je i onaj narod koji sada prozivljava AGONIJU. Ja se nadam da sam jasan: NAROD JE U AGONIJI KOMUNISTI NISU NIKAD BILI BOLJE!
srbija.44 nboskovic,
Evo prekucanog teksta iz današnje Politike o EARN mreži... Odjeci Slovenačke zloupotrebe EARN mreže OBAVEŠTENA CENTRALA U PARIZU Očekuje se odluka direktora Fride Grisena.-Ca pravnog gledišta, ovo je širenje lažnih vesti Na adresu gospodina Fride Grisena direktora EARN-a (Evropska akadem- ska istraživačka mreža), upućen je otpozdrav u vezi ca slovenačkim kompjuterskim blaćenjem "ostatka Jugoslavije". U zvaničnoj poruci dr Milana Božića, zamenika direktora jugoslovenskog čvora, ukratko je objašnjeno da je ova "elektronska pošta" iskorišćena, protivno pravi- lima za neskrivenu političku propagandu. Šta bi moglo da se dogodi? Direktorski odbor ove evropske mreže, koja je produžetak čuvene ame- ričke zvane BIT u principu podržava stavove i poteze centrale, a ona je za Jugoslaviju u Beogradu. Rukovodioci jugoslovenskog čvora imaju dvojak izbor.Prvo, mogu da is- ključe iz EARN-a sve korisnike iz Slovenije, nakon čega će oni, kao što su i do sada povremeno činili, nagrnuti da šalju nove neistine preko "austrijske veze", a Jugosloveni time izgubiti priliku da imaju uvid u ovo "elektronsko blaćenje". Blaćenje naučničke etike Drugo, na medijski rat (kompjuteri su danas najuverljiviji "posrednik" u informisanju) mora se istom merom odgovoriti! Očigledno je da su stratezi "elektronske propagande" iz LJubljane raču- nali na srdit odgovor iz Beograda u vidu isključenja, što bi-znajući sadašnju evropsku (i svetsku) osetljivost na otvoreno informisanje-isko- ristili za nove optužbe kako ih ugrožava "komunističko-centralistički režim iz Beograda", koji im, eto, ne dopušta da se povezuju sa svetom.U tom slučaju, Slovenci koji su sve ovo zakuvali i nečasno iskoristili ka- nal za razmenu naučnih podataka, ispali bi "žrtve".A to oni i hoće. Da se zloupotreba EARN mreže vraća kao bumerang, iskusila su četiri hr- vatska rektora, koji su početkom maja razaslali zlonamerni pamflet potiv Srba na "adrese" hiljada naučnika.Ubrzo su počeli da stižu odgovori sa oštrim zamerkama na račun pošiljalaca koji su se drznuli na ovakav korak. Umesto koristi, uknjižili su štetu. Dr Jagoš Prudić, direktor EARN mreže za Jugoslaviju, naziva ovo moralnom i ljudskom zloupotrebom nečega što je prevashodno namenjeno naučnom spora- zumevanju.Zato će javnost obavestiti o svemu šta se događalo (i događa). Kako isključenje slovenačkih korisnika nije mudro, ostaje kao najteža kaz- na-inače veoma delotvorna među kolegama-da je uprljana naučnička etika.Ne- ka ima je alal! Zbunjeni i pravnici Od Mirjane Tasić iz Republičkog zavoda za statistiku, administratora ju- goslovenskog dela EARN-a, saznajemo da su u ove dve godine, otkako se bavi ovim poslom, nije čula za slične zloupotrebe! Među 2400 tema koje se kori- snicima uvek nude kao predlošci za raspravu, nije našla nijednu na politi- čke note.Za razliku od "Yuzneta", američke mreže, koja omogućuje i politi- čke polemike, pa i one o događajima u Jugoslaviji. Aleksandra Mitić iz Saveznog zavoda za informatiku, koja je po nalogu Saveznog sekretarijata za razvoj (preko kojeg se EARN u našoj zemlji iz- država) "prošetala" kroz poruke minulih dana, ne zna kako će reagovati glavna centrala u Parizu.Ukoliko bi savezni organi bilo šta preduzeli, moglo bi to da bude protumačeno kao mešanje "policijske države".A takva nam odrednica zaista nije neophodna. Izvesno je da je ovo velika novost i za domaće pravnike.Naša zemlja ne- ma vlastite propise koji određuju kako da se računarske mreže (javne i za- tvorene) koriste.No, ovo umnogome podseća na radio-amatere, a poznato je da njihove zloupotrebe mogu da uzrokuju velike štete.Na neki način, bez obzira što su prosleđivane kroz zatvorenu mrežu (EARN), slovenačke i hr- vatske poruke-optužbe mogu da se svrstaju pod onim što se u nas naziva "verbalnim deliktom".Dakle, to je, kako bi pravnici rekli, širenje laž- nih vesti sa međunarodnim odjekom! Na sudu bi se valjalo oznojiti u doka- zivanju krivice, ali bi i to moglo. U zemlji u kojoj zvanična vojska dobija "ausvajs" za izlazak iz kasarne od divljih naoružanih skupina ova "pravna praznina" i nije najpogubnija. Ovo je mnogo više žalostan dokaz koliko su se brojni nacionalni naučnici dragovoljno odrekli univerzalne autonomije zarad sumnjivih političkih ci- ljeva. potpisao Stanko Stojiljković Ovo je ceo članak prekucan od reči do reči i naveo sam i autora istog. (c) klap nikola
srbija.45 nboskovic,
Evo još jednog članka iz politike... PISMO DIREKTORU EARN-a U ime jugoslovenskog čvora direktoru EARN-a u Parizu upućeno je sle- deće pismo: "Dragi gospodine Grisen, Kao što vam je verovatno poznato, oštri etnički, bolje rečeno plemenski, sukobi potresaju Jugoslaviju.Kao i u svakom ratu, prva žrtva je istina. Slovenci i Hrvati, na sličan način zbog prisutnosti velike srpske popu- lacije u Hrvatskoj,pokušavaju da izgrade sopstvene plemenske države po cenu dezintegracije Jugoslavije.Mediji su važno bojište ovog rata.Kako Vam je možda poznato, i naša mreža je takođe pogođena i često korišćena od hrvatskih i slovenačkih nacionalista, koji distributiraju poruke, ape- le i izveštaje svojih novostvorenih agencija i ministarstava-drugorazred- nih kopija gebelsovskog prototipa.žak i rektori hrvatskih univerziteta ili zamenik clovenačkog ministra za nauku (!) distribuiraju ovakvu "robu". Prema propisima kao posledica EARN-ovih pravila ovo je ilegalno. Ipak, obaveštavamo Vas o ovim događajima i, pre nego što preduzmemo ikakve protivmere, uzimamo slobodu da Vas pitamo sledeće: -Šta o ovome mislite? -Da li ste se sreli sa presedanom ove vrste u istoriji naše mreže? -Da li predlažete neke mere i koje protiv korisnika koji se ovako pona- šaju?" Ovo je, isto, kompletan sadržaj pisma prekucan iz Politike. (c) klap nikola
srbija.46 lola, -> #43, zonjic
Narod srpski nije masovno dao podrsku 9. martu. Eksponirala se opet manjina. Kada se ceo narod izjasnjavao na izborima tada se pokazalo kakav je. Ne traba da se zanosimo - srpski narod je u velikoj meri internalizovao ideologiju boljsevizma. Da li je autoritaran po prirodi ili je takav postao u posledjnjih pola veka ne znam. Tek, takav je. 11. marta mene su penzioneri napali u tramvaju. To su oni ljudi koji bi najbolje trebalo da pamte nepravde rezima (ali i oni koji su ih cesto i izvrsavali!). Koliko ima ljudi u Beogradu, a koliko ih izaslo na ulice u martu. Ne sudi o narodu po drustvu u kome se kreces. A narod nije u agoniji. Navikao je on i na gore. Neka mu samo obecaju minimalac para za minimalac rada i bice svi presrecni. Sada, kada se JNA i fizicki koncentrise u Srbiji nastace euforija od ljubavi prema Slobi. Rado cemo svi da placamo svu tu privilegovanu soldatesku. Stanovi, plate, velike penzije, pola budzeta i td. Narod je neuk, primitivan i ideoloski ispranog mozga. Treba puno vremena da prodje pa da razvije demokratsku svest, da mu se primi oduzeti moral.HKKKKKKPHH
srbija.47 zonjic, -> #46, lola
<zonjic 3.43> > To je valjda onaj isti narod koji NAM je > davao podrsku 11. marta. <lola 3.46> > Narod srpski nije masovno dao podrsku 9. martu.
srbija.48 zonjic,
Zeleo bih da svima ovde preporucim najnoviji NIN (kao i prosli broj) zbog nastavka razgovora nekoliko uglednih ljudi na temu 'Sta sada Srbi da cine'. Diskusija je po meni IZVANREDNA. To ne znaci da se sa svim u potpunosti slazem, ali je tok i nacin sasvim OK.
srbija.49 dejanr, -> #44, nboskovic
>> Aleksandra Mitić iz Saveznog zavoda za informatiku, koja je po nalogu >> Saveznog sekretarijata za razvoj (preko kojeg se EARN u našoj zemlji >> izdržava) "prošetala" kroz poruke minulih dana, Jel to "prošetala" znači "čitala naše privatne poruke"? Hmmm.... Ima od sad da radi onaj PGP ;)
srbija.50 maleksic, -> #46, lola
>> Narod je neuk, primitivan i ideoloski ispranog mozga. ... Nazovimo stvari pravim imenom. Srpski narod je GLUP!!!!! Jest da sam i ja Srbin, ali moram da priznam da je srpski narod jedan od najglupljih naroda na svetu, ako ne i najgluplji. Akademik Jovan Raskovic je to isto pokusao da kaze, ali nije mogao to bas tako sneba pa u rebra, pa je rekao kako su Srbi "lud" narod. Xaxaxa! Opet: >> Narod je neuk, primitivan i ideoloski ispranog mozga. ... Jeste, priprost i polupismen narod nekako i mogu da razumem. Oni veruju u sve sto cuju sa televizora. Ali kako da razumem "ljude" kao sto su Slobodan Unkovic, Mihajlo Markovic, Budimir Kosutic, Brana Crncevic, pa bio je tu i pok. Miodrag Bulatovic (bog da mu dusu prosti)!? Da se razumemo, navedenu gospodu ne smatram nikakvim predstavnicima srpske pameti, ali smatram da su to ipak ljudi koji su pismeni. Cak i Joca Raskovic cesto daje podrsku fasisticko-boljsevickom rezimu u Srbiji i velica vodju srpskih komunista!??? Dobrica Cosic se cesto koleba, cas je ovamo cas onamo, a Matija Beckovic mi nekako suvise mlako deluje kad treba napadati komuniste i cini mi se da je sklon kompromisima? Obican zdrav razum (svodi se uglavnom na to da se razlikuje dobro od losega) je stvar koju ja neobicno cenim kod ljudi, smatram da je to sve sto je coveku potrebno da uradi velike stvari. Sreca da u Srbiji postoje i ljudi koji imaju zdravog razuma. To su (pored moje malenkosti :)) npr. Vuk Draskovic, academik Nikola Milosevic, Draza Micunovic, Zoki Djindjic, Voja (Koschtunitza naravno, a sta ste vi pomislili? :)) i mnogi drugi tipovi iz DS, SPO i ostalih opozicionih grupa, kao i neki clanovi SEZAM-a. Sto se Voje Vojvode tice, tu covek treba da je oprezan kad procenjuje njegove postupke. Dobro znam kakve posledice na psihofizicko stanje coveka ostavljaju komunisticke tamnice (bio sam i ja godinu dana na robiji, tada se to zvalo JNA). Dovoljno je da ti ne daju da spavas nekoliko dana pa da ne znas za sebe, a ostale metode da i ne spominjem. Ipak tesko mogu da poverujem da je jedan srpski cetnik tek tako pristao da saradjuje sa svojim dzelatima i da za malu sumu novca radi na unistenju srpskog naroda. Ja se jos uvek nadam da je Voja trojanski konj u redovima komunista i da je njegov zadatak unistavanje komunistickih redova iznutra. Podrzavanjem doslovno svih komunistickih stavova i raznim drugim trikovima on je vec uspeo da mnoge bivse komuniste "prevede zedne preko vode". Ako nastavi ovim tempom, od Milosevicevih komunista ubrzo nece ostati ni za jedan centralni komitet da se sastavi :))) Iz mojih usta u Bozje usi!
srbija.51 dejanr, -> #50, maleksic
>> Ja se jos uvek nadam da je Voja trojanski konj u redovima komunista >> i da je njegov zadatak unistavanje komunistickih redova iznutra. >> Podrzavanjem doslovno svih komunistickih stavova i raznim drugim >> trikovima on je vec uspeo da mnoge bivse komuniste "prevede zedne >> preko vode". Ako nastavi ovim tempom, od Milosevicevih komunista >> ubrzo nece ostati ni za jedan centralni komitet da se sastavi :))) Da, mnogi veruju u neku varijantu ovoga. Samo, pitanje da li veruju zato što u tome možda ima osnove ili zato što žele u to da veruju...
srbija.52 dveselinovic, -> #50, maleksic
Vuk dobar? Svaka čast; taj je odnedavno počeo da se ponaša kao da je on na vlasti; razgovara sa Mesićem kao državnik, smeška mu se ljubezno, a nedavno ga je zvao ustašom i rasturačem YU. Razgovara sa nemačkim ambasadorom; da možda i on ne lovi neke dotacije? Vuk Drašković je po mome mišljenju nervno neuravnotežena osoba, osrednji pisac feljtonistike, koji toliko želi da dođe na vlast i usreći srpski narod da mi je muka od toga. Gospode, sačuvaj nas od još jednog usrećitelja, dosta nam je toga, svakog plaćamo sve većim žrtvama. Prvo su nas Aca Ćora i Pašić uvukli u Juogoslaviju (hvala im, ali nisu trebali!), pa su nas posle komunisti uzdizal;i i razvijali (hvala i njima, nisu ni oni trebali!), a sada bi i Vuk da nas razvija i uzdiže sa svojim mapama Srbije. Hvala mu, ne treba. Svoje mapice neka crta kod kuće, a svoj mesijanski imidž je prilagodio svom cilju - vlasti. Kad mu vidim ruse kose, odmah mislim da sam na mjuziklu "Kosa"; kad ga čujem, odmah znam da mi ništa dobro ne sprema. Da bar ume da peva .... 32XDVV
srbija.53 lola, -> #52, dveselinovic
> Vuk dobar? Svaka cast; taj je odnedavno poceo da se ponasa kao da > je on na vlasti; razgovara sa Mesicem kao drzavnik, smeska mu se > ljubezno, a nedavno ga je zvao ustasom i rasturacem YU. Razgovara sa Vuk. Covek u opoziciji, politicar, pa se bori da osvoji vlast. Stvarno neobicno. Pa jos i razgovara i nudi neke predloge za resenja. Jos jedan zlocin. Kamo srece da znamo kakve karte kroje Milosevic, Krestic, Crncevic, Cosic i ostali koji nas gurnuse. > Vuk Draskovic je po mome misljenju nervno neuravnotezena osoba, > osrednji pisac feljtonistike, koji toliko zeli da dode na vlast i Vuk je histerican i emotivan i lakoveran. Ali za razliku od rezima nije paronoidan. Njegovo "ludilo" je krajnje benevalentno. To sto je los pisac ne treba da bude tema ocene njegove politicke delatnosti. Ja se secam mnogih njegovih gafova koji bi bili dobra podloga za kritiku. Poslednje aktivnosti su ipak konstruktivne (predlog za resenje, pocetak pregovora, razgovora ...) a u ovo doba nestasice razuma takve su akcije dobrodosle. Mislim da je Vuk je posten covek i ne sumnjam u njegove miroljubive namere. Mnogo me vise plase uredno podsisani ludaci i primitivci koji su na vlasti ili uz nju. Od kako je SPS aktivirao svoje crne kosulje (brade) nekako je deplasirano i dalje dizati poviku na zlog vuka. Lola
srbija.54 lola, -> #50, maleksic
> Jeste, priprost i polupismen narod nekako i mogu da razumem. Oni > veruju u sve sto cuju sa televizora. Ali kako da razumem "ljude" > kao sto su Slobodan Unkovic, Mihajlo Markovic, Budimir Kosutic, > Brana Crncevic, pa bio je tu i pok. Miodrag Bulatovic (bog da mu Ja bih narodu jos i oprostio, ali intelektualcima nikako. Ustvari kolaboracija intelektualaca sa rezimom u posleratnoj Srbiji je nasa najveca sramota. To ce tek da objasnjavaju sociolozi, psiholozi, politikolozi i, naravno, psihijatri. Njihova uloga u guranju naroda u taj jaram je mozda i presudna. Za Mihajla Markovica objasnjenje je dao Stojan Cerovic u novom Vremenu. Za ljude zdravog razuma kako ih zoves navijam iz sve snage. Koliko ce bahati rezim jos da ih trpi. Imam utisak da se arogancija bolsevika opet budi. Za one koji imaju jake (ili "jake") opozicione partije iza sebe ne brinem toliko. Cuo sam trac da su za neke nadstranacke licnosti (ili one iz slabih partija) vec napisali optuznicu i samo cekaju priliku da ih pohapse (Vesnu Pesic, Nebojasu Popova i Stojana Cerovica?!). > Ja se jos uvek nadam da je Voja trojanski konj u redovima komunista > i da je njegov zadatak unistavanje komunistickih redova iznutra. Nije. Kao da je jednom zrtva zavolela dzelata. Onoliki romani pisani o tome (Citaj Pekica "Kako upokojiti vampira", Kisa, Dostojevskog). U psihologiji se to zove identifikacija sa agresorom i cesto je koriscena da objasni ponasanja citavih naroda u kriznim okolnostima. Opet, nisam siguran da je Seselj podlegao kasnije, a da sve vreme nije bio njima blizak. Interesanto je kako su pale maske mnogih izvikanih intelektualaca, koji su lepo i udobno zivelu kao dezurni disidenti. A ako je tacno, onda ne mislim da je dobro. Ako Seselj prevede komuniste u svoje redove, oni ce ostati isti. Samo ce se drugacije zvati, a to su vec jednom radili (nedavno). Nije vazno ime. Ja ni sada ne vidim razliku izmedju jednih i drugih. U ostalom i Hitlerova partija je bila nacional-socijalisticka.
srbija.55 dejanr, -> #52, dveselinovic
>> Vuk dobar? Svaka čast; taj je odnedavno počeo da se ponaša kao da >> je on na vlasti; razgovara sa Mesićem kao državnik, smeška mu se >> ljubezno, a nedavno ga je zvao ustašom i rasturačem YU. A kada to? Vuk je, koliko se sećam, od početka govorio da Mesića TREBA izabrati za Predsednika Predsedništva, a za to su se zalagali u Skupštini kako poslanici SPO tako i Demokrate pa su zato i nazivani izdajnicima itd. Vuk je od početka govorio da treba pregovarati i razgovarati sa Hrvatima, što i radi. >> Razgovara sa nemačkim ambasadorom; da možda i on ne lovi neke dotacije? Nikako ne mogu da shvatim zašto nekome toliko smeta kada neki političar razgovara sa nekim stranim ambasadorom. Pa ambasadori i jesu tu da bi se sa njima razgovaralo i pregovaralo, a političarima i jeste posao da razgovaraju a ne da ratuju. >> Prvo su nas Aca Ćora i Pašić uvukli u Juogoslaviju Koliko mi je poznato, Pašić NIJE bio za formiranje Jugoslavije, kažu čak ni kraj Petar, ali Aleksandrova je bila zadnja... >> Svoje mapice neka crta kod kuće, a svoj mesijanski imidž je >> prilagodio svom cilju - vlasti. A koji je, moliću lepo, cilj ostalih pretendenata, Šešelja, Jovića, Mićunovića itd? Zar nije osvajanje vlasti? A koji je cilj sadašnje vlasti? Da na tom mestu i ostane (po svaku cenu). Koji je cilj opozicije u svakoj drugoj državi? Da dođe na vlast. Zato mi nije jasno zašto bi se takve želje samo Vuku uzimale za zlo.
srbija.56 zonjic, -> #52, dveselinovic
> Vuk Drašković je po mome mišljenju nervno neuravnotežena osoba, > osrednji pisac feljtonistike, koji toliko želi da dođe na vlast i > usreći srpski narod da mi je muka od toga. Po mom misljenju, on nije los pisac! Mozda nije bas toliko dobar u politi- ci (produktivan), ali za njega je jedan veliki deo naroda i to treba res- pektovati. Njegova zelja za vlascu je, BTW, bila MANJA od iste takve zelje dragih nam komunista, sto itekako osecamo! > Gospode, sačuvaj nas od > još jednog usrećitelja, dosta nam je toga, svakog plaćamo sve većim > žrtvama. Prvo su nas Aca Ćora i Pašić uvukli u Juogoslaviju (hvala > im, ali nisu trebali!), pa su nas posle komunisti uzdizal;i i > razvijali (hvala i njima, nisu ni oni trebali!), a sada bi i Vuk da > nas razvija i uzdiže sa svojim mapama Srbije. Da nisi nekog zaboravio? (help: izmedju komunista i Vuka) Doduse, mozda si ga i uvrstio u komuniste, ali onda je bolje koristiti prezent: uzdizu i razvijaju. (mirno i dostojanstveno)
srbija.57 zonjic, -> #50, maleksic
> Jest da sam i ja Srbin, ali moram da priznam da je srpski narod > jedan od najglupljih naroda na svetu, ako ne i najgluplji. E, bas nije! Prvo, nemoj da stavljas narod u kontext u koji on ne pripada - seljake u situacije sklone gradu (komuniciranje, politika) ni gradjanae u seoske, intelektualce u gradjanske ni gradjane (obicne gradjane, 'potrosace') u intelektualne. Shvatices da je narod inteligentan, nije naivan, i da ima veliki intelektualni potencijal. (Ja, sticajem okolnosti znam da u okolini Berana [ivangrad] NEMA SELA KOJE NEMA BAR 1 MAGISTRA, i to nisu one Zagre- backo-Pristinske diplome nego BG najcesce.) > Dobrica Cosic se cesto koleba, cas je ovamo cas > onamo, a Matija Beckovic mi nekako suvise mlako deluje kad treba > napadati komuniste i cini mi se da je sklon kompromisima? DC je izjavio da se ponovo rodi opet bi bio komunista. O njemu ne treba razmis- ljati, prosto, takav je! Matija je zbog komunizma mnogo propatio (i on i poro- dica) a to sto ti se cini da je sklon kompromisima, to je iz sledeceg razloga: Ja ne volim komuniste (ni prave, ni ove kamuflirane), ali sam svestan da je pre 8 meseci SKORO 50% naroda bilo za njih. Takodje sam svestan da je jedan veliki deo naroda van Srbije prosto vezan za njihovog (moj nije) vodju jednos- tavno zato sto je Vodja u njihovim ocima Srbija, sto je kod nas blizu istine (kad pogledas Vladu i Skupstinu jasno ti je...) Ja to sve znam i ne mogu se pra- viti da ne znam. > Ja se jos uvek nadam da je Voja trojanski konj u redovima komunista > i da je njegov zadatak unistavanje komunistickih redova iznutra. Iz tvojih usta u Bozije usi! Samo, plasim se da do neba ima mnogo i da te ovaj bas i ne cuje. :-} VV me razocarava iz koraka u korak (da ne kazem iz sednice u sednicu)
srbija.58 dveselinovic, -> #53, lola
Njegovo ludli je benevolentno? Idi boga ti. A nije li on bio prvi koji je zahtevao nacionalnu armiju? Dobro što je hteo da se reši JNA, to razumem, ali da traži baš *NACIONALNU*? Tebi je to benevolentno? Što se tiče njegovih mapa - u osnovi, nemam ja ništa protiv toga da ih on ima (najzad, to je njegovo pravo, pa sve i da nije političar), ali bi bar mogao da blagoizvoli obavestiti javnost o tome kako je povukao granice, tek da znamo hoće biti još rata ili ne. Ali 'ajde i to nekako, ali ne videh da je bio rezolutan oko toga da Srbi nema da idu sa Hrvatskom ako neće, jer to je, po meni, jedini kamen spoticanja sa odlaskom Hrvatske. Lično zastupam stav da Hrvatsku treba pustiti da ide ako hoće, a isto važi i za Makedoniju i BiH, ali samo uz prethodni referendum stanovništva. Ako žele da idu, neka idu, nema problema, ali niko ne sme na silu povući one koji ne žele sa njima. Lično ne volim "toplo-hladno" političare; Vuk je prvo tražio nacionalnu vojsku da bi zaštitio Srbe od Hrvata, a sada bi da pregovara. U vezi Mesića, i ja sam bio protivnik varijante "e, baš nećemo da te izaberemo, mrski neprijatelju", mada mi je Mesić daleko od simpatičnog; mislim da su ovi na vlasti bili prilično usamljeni u svom stavu, ne znam bilo koga ko je to podržao. U tom kontekstu, ne vidim neke posebne zasluge Vuka. Što se tiče njegovih razgovora sa nemačkim ambasadorom, dok se ne rasvetle okolnosti učestvovanja Nemačke u našoj drami, njega bi trebalo baciti na totalni led, odnsono u političku (i samo političku) izolaciju. To je moj stav, pa prema njemu i kažem što kažem za Vuka. A vesti o učestvovanju Nemačke i još više Austrije u svemu ovome stižu dnevno; pogledajte samo današnji izveštaj o pisanju Španskog lista "El pais". Zar sa takvima da razgovaramo? 32XDVV
srbija.59 dejanr, -> #58, dveselinovic
>> Što se tiče njegovih mapa - u osnovi, nemam ja ništa protiv toga >> da ih on ima (najzad, to je njegovo pravo, pa sve i da nije >> političar), ali bi bar mogao da blagoizvoli obavestiti javnost o >> tome kako je povukao granice, tek da znamo hoće biti još rata ili ne. Ako javnost jednom kupi "Srpsku reč", možda će i biti obaveštena. Zašto je Vuk kriv što ostala štampa koju javnost kupuje neće da objavi mape?
srbija.60 ivujanic, -> #58, dveselinovic
> Njegovo ludli je benevolentno? > Idi boga ti. A nije li on bio prvi koji je zahtevao nacionalnu >armiju? Dobro što je hteo da se reši JNA, to razumem, ali da traži >baš *NACIONALNU*? Tebi je to benevolentno? Pa meni to i nije nelogično (ne kažem da je O.K.). Pa zar očekuješ da u ovim vremenima Mađari, Muslimani ili Hrvati u znatnijem broju krenu da ginu za Srbiju? > Što se tiče njegovih mapa - u osnovi, nemam ja ništa protiv toga Jedna od njegovih najboljih ideja je bila kantonizacija Jugoslavije, nešto poput Švajcarske. Međutim, šta bi tada radili naši mali carevi?? Lično mislim da je Byk pošten čovek, i ja ga neobično cenim, međutim greši što se ne povlači iz politike. Daleko bi korisniji bio kao pisac, previše je emotivan za politiku. Za ostatak teksta nemam primedbi :) Pozdrav, Ivica P.S. kako neko reče, deo ljudi se iz FORUM-a povukao u grupe. Molim da me uključite u takve grupe ukoliko ima mesta. Hvala!
srbija.61 dveselinovic, -> #60, ivujanic
Da je emotivan, emotivan je, a to nije dobro ni za jednog političara (da ne ulazimo u raspravu da li jemotivan ili histeričan). Za vašu informaciju, koliko se ja sećam prvi koji je zajahao po ideji kantonizacije je bio Radovan Karadžić, odnosno neko od njegovih; lično ne vidim drugi način da se BiH podeli bez totalnog cepanja (a ne vidim ni kako će se to izbeći). Inače, kantonizacija jeste dobra ideja, ali bi kod nas propala - naime, kantonizacija podrazumeva jasne ingerencije savezne vlade, *POTPUNO* otvoreno tržište, limitiranje internih dadžbina unutar kantona, itd. Ovo unosi i niz problema, od kojih navodim samo jedan (po meni, najgori): uzmite recimo kanton Zenicu sa čeličanom i kanton Sremčicu sa Payom. Zenica vodi u velikom poslu dok sve dobro radi; kada zglajza, ko će joj pomoći, jer Sremčica verovatno nema neke posebne želje da ekonomski pomaže kanton Zenice, od koga neposredno nema ništa, i obrnuto. Drugim rečima, kantoni su dobra stvar za zemlje u kojima nije bilo nacionalno obojenih ratova bar 100 godina, te za zemlje u kojima vlada prosperitet; mi ne ispunjavamo ni jedan od ta dva uslova. Što se Vuka tiče (a važi i za druge), ni on ni drugi nisu zapravo posvetili vremena problemu nacionalnih vojski. Nije toliko problem u njihovom osnivanju, već u održavanju (skupo) i problemu šta sa JNA. Ako se JNA raspadne (ili pretvori u Srpsku vojsku, svejedno) čitava gomila vojnih lica će pohrliti u Srbiju i sa sobom doneti nezaposlenost (Srbija ne može da izdržava vojsku koju je plaćala cela YU) i osećaj jugoslovenstva, dakle davno mrtvog zajedništva. To nije mali broj ljudi; ako u JNA ima 90.000 oficira, prostim množenjem sa 3 (žena i jedno dete) to 270.000 ljudi. Malo će ostati u vojsci, a kuda će ostali? Ja bih njih na Kosovo, tj. nastanio bih sve to u Prištini. 32XDVV
srbija.62 lola, -> #58, dveselinovic
Vukova mapa je objavljena u Borbi. Izgleda da je gladao mapu iz NIN-a pa dosao na neke dosta logicne ideje. U Politici verovatno nije objavljena, ali Vukove ideje su izlozene javnosti, pa ko ima bolje nek izvoli.
srbija.63 maleksic, -> #54, lola
>> Ako Seselj prevede komuniste u svoje redove, oni ce ostati isti. >> Samo ce se drugacije zvati, a to su vec jednom radili (nedavno). >> Nije vazno ime. Pa nije bas tako. Kao prvo, simbol im nece biti petokraka, a to je VEOMA bitna stvar. Naravno, pored petokrake u vjecni zaborav otici ce i Marx, Engels, Lenjin, Kardelj, Tito, Milosevic, Staljin i ostala bratija, xm, u stvari nece biti zaboravljeni nego ce se vecno pamtiti po zlodelima. Druga bitna stvar je to sto su sadasnje komunisticke mase veoma primitivne i lako ih je izmanipulisati. Dovoljno je da se na televiziji nekoliko dana ponavlja kako je komunizam losa stvar i videces, ima svi da pljuju na petokraku i da se nadmecu ko je veci antikomunista. Na zalost, koliko god je dragi nam vodja srpskih komunista imbecilno glup covek, ipak je obavesten da gubitak kontrole nad televizijom znaci odlazak komunista sa vlasti. Kada Voja dolaskom na celo komunista preuzme televiziju moci ce da radi sta mu volja. A tada ce se u njemu probuditi pravi cetnicki duh i komunisti ce bogami da oberu bostan!
srbija.65 dejanr,
Ako sam dobro razumeo, Užice od sada nije Titovo. Moraćemo malo da prođemo kroz korisničku bazu i to sredimo ;) Nije mi, sa druge strane, sasvim jasno šta bi sa latinicom, jel ona i dalje u upotrebi ili nije? Ako nije, biće zarade na prepravkama raznih karakter generatora itd ;) ali ipak ne mogu da shvatim da ćemo se odreći jedne velike prednosti našeg jezika nad svim ostalim "ćiriličnim" jezicima tj. mogućnosti da se piše latinicom, doduše uz mali dodatak od 10 znakova.
srbija.66 lola, -> #63, maleksic
> Pa nije bas tako. Kao prvo, simbol im nece biti petokraka, a to je > VEOMA bitna stvar. Naravno, pored petokrake u vjecni zaborav > otici ce i Marx, Engels, Lenjin, Kardelj, Tito, Milosevic, Staljin Ni sada oni mnogo ne masu sa gore pomenutim velikanima. Ali kao sto i sam primecujes, to je samo forma. Neprincipelno rukovodstvo i masa koja ga sledi lako menjaju simbole, ali ne i cud. Cetnistvo V. Seselja malo lici na nekakav moralni preporod. Pre bih rekao da se tu skuplja radikalni nacionalizam. Da je po njihovom otisli bi u totalitarizam gori od ovog sada (neka orvelovska socijala i uravnilovka plus ukidanje suprotnih misljenja i to batinama). Zato i jesu tako privlacni boljsevicima, jer je to isti mentalni sklop. Tako treba da predjemo iz nekog razlabavljenog boljsevizma u desni totalitarizam. Nisam siguran da nam je to napredak. To ce lepo da se vidi ako se ostvari tvoja zelja i V.S. preuzme televiziju. Ne dao nam bog takvu televiziju - bice kao i ova (samo ce da laze u korist drugih ljudi) plus ce odmah da ukine NTV Studio B, B92 i druge sto smetaju.
srbija.67 mkiric, -> #56, zonjic
>> Vuk Drašković je po mome mišljenju nervno neuravnotežena osoba, >> osrednji pisac feljtonistike, koji toliko želi da dođe na vlast i >> usreći srpski narod da mi je muka od toga. > Po mom misljenju, on nije los pisac! Mozda nije bas toliko dobar u > politici (produktivan), ali za njega je jedan veliki deo naroda i to > treba respektovati. Njegova zelja za vlascu je, BTW, bila MANJA od iste > takve zelje dragih nam komunista, sto itekako osecamo! Da li je Vuk Drašković dobar ili loš pisac zavisi od ukusa o kojima se, naravno, ne raspravlja. Pročitao sam i Nož i Sudiju, i mogao bih da kažem da meni Vuk izgleda kao pisac sa jakim osećajem za pravdu i nacionalno, koji se pri tome drži čistog naturalizma. U njegovim knjigama nema dvosmislenosti, hiperbola, aluzija niti filozofiranja - sve je čisto, skoro ogoljeno realno, po čemu me strašno podsećaju (naročito Nož) na Knjigu o Milutinu. To ne mora da znači da je on loš pisac, već samo da se čitaocu može ali i ne mora svideti njegov pristup i način pisanja, ali je neosporno da su slike koje dočarava savršeno jasne. Od pisca se traži dobra percepcija i sposobnost da prikaže i dočara percipirano (ili zamišljeno), dok se od političara traži pre svega sposobnost predviđanja, kombinovanja i pravljenja kompromisa. Pisac mora da bude izrazito emocionalan, čak pomalo i nestabilan, dok političar mora da uvek sačuva hladnu glavu i da se vodi samo računicom i interesima. Vukov neuspeh u politici pokazuje da on ipak nije tako loš pisac kako DVV to smatra. MK
srbija.68 mkiric, -> #58, dveselinovic
> Idi boga ti. A nije li on bio prvi koji je zahtevao nacionalnu armiju? > Dobro što je hteo da se reši JNA, to razumem, ali da traži baš > *NACIONALNU*? Tebi je to benevolentno? Dobro, a šta ima loše u nacionalnoj armiji? Koliko je meni poznato, većina armija su nacionalne - mađarska, italijanska, španska, izraelska, pa čak i američka. Ako pogledaš ove dve poslednje, videćeš da im je to jedan od glavnih faktora uspeha. Šta misliš koliko dugo bi opstala država Izrael kad bi pokušala da uvede državnu umesto nacionalne armije?? Navodim Izrael zato što se nalaze u okruženju koje je vrlo slično našem sadašnjem, mada nešto drastičnije izraženom, a i zato što državljani Izraela nisu samo Jevreji već i Arapi. Šta misliš kako bi se ponašali Arapi u Izraelskoj armiji u ratu sa drugim Arapima? Ne treba mnogo da se trudiš da pronađeš odgovor - pogledaj kako su se ponašali Slovenci u J(N)A, ili još bolje, kako su se ponašali Hrvati u Jugoslovenskoj vojsci '41! Masovno su sabotirali i dezertirali, a jedinog čoveka koji nije hteo da pogazi datu zakletvu su na kraju proglasili za izdajnika i čak naterali i nas da o tome učimo 50 godina. > Lično ne volim "toplo-hladno" političare; Vuk je prvo tražio > nacionalnu vojsku da bi zaštitio Srbe od Hrvata, a sada bi da pregovara. Metod toplo-hladno, poznat i kao "režim škotskog tuša", se pokazao vrlo uspešnim. Da bi mogao da uspešno pregovaraš, moraš prvo da stekneš poziciju i imidž snage, što su Izraelci vrlo uspešno demonstrirali. U pregovorima se uvek postiže kompromis, a da bi dobio onoliko koliko hoćeš, moraš prvo da uzmeš (ako možeš) ili bar tražiš mnogo više. Zato su Hrvati sada u povoljnijem položaju od nas, jer kad dođe do pregovora, ići će se na kompromis, najverovatnije status quo, odnosno sadašnje granice, a to je mnogo više od onoga što im zaista pripada. > Što se tiče njegovih razgovora sa nemačkim ambasadorom, dok se > ne rasvetle okolnosti učestvovanja Nemačke u našoj drami, njega > bi trebalo baciti na totalni led, odnsono u političku (i samo > političku)izolaciju. To je moj stav, pa prema njemu i kažem što kažem za > Vuka. A vesti o učestvovanju Nemačke i još više Austrije u svemu > ovome stižu dnevno; pogledajte samo današnji izveštaj o pisanju > Španskog lista "El pais". Zar sa takvima da razgovaramo? Pa naravno da upravo sa takvima treba razgovarati! Bilo bi lepo kad bi smo mogli da im damo po prstima, ali pošto ne možemo, onda jedino ostaje da razgovaramo i da bar nešto pokušamo da učinimo, ili da pustimo da rade to što rade i izgubimo još više. Ne znam da li grešim ili ne, ali to je upravo svrha politike i razlog postojanja političara.
srbija.69 dveselinovic, -> #68, mkiric
Razlika između zemalja koje pominješ i naše (bivše) zemlje je u tome što su to manje-više jednonacionalne, ili u najgorem slučaju, dvonacionalne zemlje. Izrael ima samo Palestince, a mi Slovence, Hrvate, Bosance muslimane (kod nas - nacija ?!?) i Makedonce; Crnogorci su uvek bili uz nas, ostali u manjoj ili većoj meri mimo ili protiv nas. Neće baš biti ista stvar. Kada u ovako nenormalno višenaocionalnoj zemlji pričaš o nacionalnoj armiji, drugima dobro ne misliš (kao u ostalom ni oni tebi). Međutim, prava jugoslovenska vojska (da ne ulazimo da li je ima ili nema, da li je bilo ili nije) bi uvek bila dobro pokriće za sve nas, niko ne bi mogao da se buni da ovi ili oni rade nešto; sad, što je u opštem truležu i vojska istrulila, ne treba se čuditi. 32XDVV
srbija.70 zonjic, -> #69, dveselinovic
> Crnogorci su uvek bili > uz nas, ... Crnogorci TO SMO MI, i ne mozemo MI biti uz NAS. Bude li mi jos neko nabrajao crnogorce sa velikim C i to u narode Jugoslavije za jedno pedeste godina kad padnu komunisti cija je to teza (etnogeneza) optuzicu ga za laz i klevetu!!!
srbija.71 ivujanic, -> #63, maleksic
>Kada Voja dolaskom na celo komunista preuzme televiziju moci >ce da radi sta mu volja. A tada ce se u njemu probuditi pravi >cetnicki duh i komunisti ce bogami da oberu bostan! A i radnici ,seljaci, profesori, programeri, doktori, šoferi... Nisam preterano upućen u istoriju, ali jedno znam: četnici su postojali mnogo pre II WW, i kao takvi imali daleko bolju ulogu od one koju na ovim prostorima ljudi pamte zahvaljujući 50-to godišnjoj propagandi komunista. Molim nekog ko ima tačnije podatke o istoriji četničkog pokreta da me prosvetli, jer verujem da osim mene, još priličan broj ljudi o tom periodu samo sluti. Nadam se da ne spadaš u onaj deo Šešeljove publike koji stvari rešava bejzbol palicama, jer više ne mogu a da ne kažem da je njemu, što se mene tiče, pregoreo neki čip. Pozdrav, Ivica
srbija.72 mkiric, -> #69, dveselinovic
> Razlika između zemalja koje pominješ i naše (bivše) zemlje je u tome > što su to manje-više jednonacionalne, ili u najgorem slučaju, > dvonacionalne zemlje. Nisam baš siguran da je USA jednonacionalna zemlja! Razmisli malo, oni nisu čak ni jednorasna zemlja - imaju i bele i crne i žute i crvene u sasvim dovoljnim količinama za ogromno s*nje kada bi se ponašali kao mi ovde. Da ne pominjem što među belima, pored WASP-ova ima i Nemaca, Italijana, Poljaka, Srba, Hrvata, Hispanoamerikanaca, i koga sve još ne, a među žutima najbrojniji su Kinezi, Japanci i Vijetnamci. Većina nabrojanih, izuzev možda Nemaca, i dalje uporno neguje svoj kulturni i nacionalni identitet, ali prihvataju i činjenicu da svi žive u USA i da su američki građani sa svim pravima i dužnostima koje iz toga slede. > Neće baš biti ista stvar. Kada u ovako nenormalno višenacionalnoj > zemlji pričaš o nacionalnoj armiji, drugima dobro ne misliš (kao > uostalom ni oni tebi). Ne slažem se sa ovom tvrdnjom. Kad pričam o nacionalnoj armiji to može da znači samo da drugima NE VERUJEM, a onaj ko meni zlo ne misli ne treba ni da se boji da ću ja njemu zlo misliti. E, sad, ako nekome ovo smeta, to znači da bi on mene (nas) .... kad ne bismo imali svoju armiju, a složićeš se da nam (nacionalna) armija upravo zbog takvih i treba. Uopšte, ova predrasuda je jedan od najpodmuklijih plodova titove i kardeljeve politike - svako ko pominje svoje, misli loše drugome! Time se izjednačava nacionalizam i šovinizam, a između ova dva pojma postoji ogroman jaz. Ko ne veruje, neka pogleda u bilo koji rečnik srpskog ili bilo kog drugog jezika. > Međutim, prava jugoslovenska vojska (da ne ulazimo da li je ima ili > nema, da li je bilo ili nije) bi uvek bila dobro pokriće za sve nas, > niko ne bi mogao da se buni da ovi ili oni rade nešto; sad, što je u > opštem truležu i vojska istrulila, ne treba se čuditi. "Prava jugoslovenska vojska" je od postanka Jugoslavije do danas bez izuzetka pucala po svim šavovima u svakoj ozbiljnijoj frci upravo zbog naglašenog višenacionalnog izmešanog sastava, kako '41. tako i '91. Jer, zašto bi Musliman ili Hrvat bio lud da gine za Srbiju ili Srbin za Hrvatsku ili Sloveniju? Ovo drugo se, na žalost, ipak dešavalo i to u znatnim količinama, ali po svemu sudeći više neće. Ovo je potpuno prirodno i mene bi iznenadilo obrnuto rezonovanje. Ponudi mi bar jedan valjan argument ili dokaz u suprotno! MK
srbija.73 maleksic, -> #66, lola
>> Cetnistvo V. Seselja malo lici na nekakav moralni preporod. Pre >> bih rekao da se tu skuplja radikalni nacionalizam. Da je po >> njihovom otisli bi u totalitarizam gori od ovog sada (neka >> orvelovska socijala i uravnilovka plus ukidanje suprotnih >> misljenja i to batinama). Pa ne razmisljam ja mnogo o rezimu u postkomunistickoj Srbiji kada hvalim Voju Seselja. Silazak komunista sa vlasti je veoma bitna stvar da bi se izbegla strana vojna intervencija protiv Srbije. Ako brzo ne skinemo komuniste, Srbije nece biti, pa prema tome nece biti ni dileme oko izbora novog srpskog rezima. Svet se mora uveriti da Srbija nije komunisticka!!! Zato je cak i pozeljno da posle pada krvavog Milosevicevog rezima vlast preuzme radikalno antikomunisticka stranka, pa bi u toj situaciji izvestan vid fasizma bio prihvatljiv, cak i pozeljan. Radikalan nacionalizam ce svakako biti veoma prisutan, ali ja ne vidim sta u tome ima lose. Nacionalizam sam po sebi nije losa stvar. Nevolje donose neke pojave koje se cesto javljaju istovremeno sa porastom nacionalizma, sto mnogima daje povoda da nepravedno optuzuju nacionalizam za svakojaka zla. A evo zasto nisam zabrinut za buducnost Srbije posle komunista. Pogledaj sve srpske opozicione stranke i uoci po cemu se razlikuju. Videces da razlika gotovo nema, pa je prema tome svejedno koja ce stranka ili koalicija doci na vlast. Evo tih glavnih opredeljenja koja su zajednicka *svim* srpskim nekomunistickim strankama i pokretima: - Jasan antikomunizam i antisocijalizam. - Kapitalizam, sto liberalniji, sa sto manjim usescem drzavnog sektora kao nuznog zla. Privatna svojina kao osnova ekonomije. Flexibilna socijalna politika u periodu izlaska iz komunistickog rasula. - Postovanje svih ljudskih prava svih gradjana Srbije, u skladu sa naprednom medjunarodnom praksom. - Monarhija, dinastija Karadjordjevica. Istina, neki nisu izricito za, ali nisu ni protiv (a to se svodi na isto, zar ne?). - Vracanje dostojanstva i ugleda Crkve. - Srpske etnicke i historijske granice. Neprihvatanje avnojevskih i srpskokomunistickih ujudurmi kojima je Srbija rascepkana i suzena. - Nesebicna pomoc svim Srbima koji su izlozeni teroru u porobljenim srpskim zemljama. Hitno formiranje prave srpske vojske. - Ulazak u Evropu i EEZ. Diplomatski odnosi sa Izraelom. Prijateljstvo sa USA, UK, Francuskom, Italijom i carskom Rusijom. Eto, to je to. Razlike postoje jedino u image-u partije, npr. jedni su onako kao fini, sve neki profesori, drugi su bradati cetnici (sve im masne brade od gibanice :), treci su nesto izmedju... ali svi imaju iste ideje. Vece razlike postoje jedino u metodama kojima se zele ostvariti pojedini ciljevi stranke, a to postaje potpuno nebitno kada se antikomunisticka vlast ucvrsti. >> njihovom otisli bi u totalitarizam gori od ovog sada (neka **** ** **** **** Zaboga, pa ne mislis valjda ozbiljno da postoji nesto sto je gore od ove danasnje komunisticko-boljsevicko-staljinisticko- -marxlenjinisticko-milosevicevsko-fasisticke diktature??? >> orvelovska socijala i uravnilovka plus ukidanje suprotnih >> misljenja i to batinama). ******** A zasto bi neko imao suprotno misljenje? Ja mislim da su gorenavedeni stavovi srpskih opozicionih stranaka sasvim ispravni, pa sad ako neko ima nesto protiv - batine i zasluzuje :))) >> To ce lepo da se vidi ako se ostvari tvoja zelja i V.S. preuzme >> televiziju. Ne dao nam bog takvu televiziju - bice kao i ova >> (samo ce da laze u korist drugih ljudi) plus ce odmah da ukine NTV >> Studio B, B92 i druge sto smetaju. Xexexe! Pa Voja je izgleda vec preuzeo sve TV stanice osim RTV Beograd! Koji god kanal ukljucim - eto ti ga Voja Vojvoda. A zasto bi ukidao Studio B i B92 kada su ga upravo te stanice napravile ovako popularnim? :) A sto se laganja(?) na "buducoj" televiziji tice, to me uopste ne zabrinjava. Nisam covek koji se lako moze slagati. Postoje gomile drugih izvora informacija, pa ako laze koza ne laze rog.
srbija.74 zolika,
A propo usvojenog (cini mi se) Zakona o promeni imena ulica, trgova, fab- rika itd. koji je usvojila Narodna Skupstina... To je onaj zakon kojim se predvidja brisanje imena onih licnosti koji su nas upropastili u ekonomskom, politickom i ostalim "smislovima" (?)... Bas juce (24.07.91.) prlazio sam novosadskom ulicom koja se do pre mozda koji dan zvala imenom Salvadora Aljendea i imam sta da vidim: novo ime ulice je ulica Kralja Petra I ! Ove nase vlasti su izgleda bas zurile da novi zakon primene u praksi... Ili neko od novosadjana vise zna o cemu je rec? Izgleda duvaju neki novi vetrovi.
srbija.75 zonjic,
Evo par clanaka iz SCY o cetnicima.... Article: 1634 From: brajovic+@cs.cmu.edu (Vladimir Brajovic) Subject: U.S. Congressional record on Chetnicks (part I) Date: 23 Jul 91 11:59:27 GMT The following is a reprint from congressional record on General Draza Mihailovic Commander-in-Chief of Serbian anti-Nazi forces Chetnics, 1941-1944. It contains truly amazing facts, story, personal testimony and emotion. I include this for all of us to make no further mistakes as to: * who were Cetniks and Draza Mihailovic (Re: ustase and cetnici) * who and what are Serbian people. Due to the length of the artical I am posting it in two parts Vladimir ************************************************** (Part one) reprinted fro Congressional record, Washington, D.C. Thursday, November 19, 1987. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD - HOUSE Washington, D.C. - The SPEAKER pro tempore. Under a previous order of the House, the gentleman from Illinois (Mr. Crane) is recognized for 60 minutes. Mr. CRANE. Mr. Speaker, on April 6, 1941, the German Government made an unprovoked attack on Yugoslavia. By April 13, the Germans captured Belgrade. By April 18, the Yugoslav Army officially surrendered. Col Draza Mihailovich did not surrender, but retreated to the mountains where he organized resistance to the enemy occupying forces. King Peter promoted him to general and appointed him Mister of War. In this capacity he was recognized as an ally by the United States during World War II. For a brief period following the German invasion, there is evidence that General Mihailovich and his Ser4bian forces were not the only Yugoslav resisting the Nazi invasion. But in the autumn of 1941, the so-called Partisans - Yugoslav Communists - ceased cooperation in resisting the Nazi and began attacking the Mihailovich forces from the rear. At the time, General Mihailovic was acting as the duly authorized Minister of War of the recognized Yugoslav Government. That was 46 years ago this month, Mr. Speaker, and today in the United States Congress we are gathered together, as in the past, to pay our respect to General Mihailovich upon the anniversary of his betrayal and execution at the hands of the Communists in Yugoslavia. The reason for our tribute to General Mihailovich is first and foremost our gratitude to him for saving the lives of over 500 American airmen whom he rescued. Those of us in Congress who have studied the history of this period have striven to fulfill the desire of those saved American airmen to memorialize General Mihailovic with the erection of a monument in his honor in our National Capital. Despite communist disinformation both during World War II and after, preserved historical documents and facts conclusively demonstrate the General Mihailovich was an heroic anti-Nazi, but also an anti-Communist. It was the latter that led to his murder, but also the effort by our own State Department to conceal the fact that President Truman - upon the recommendation of Gen. Dwight Eisenhower - had conferred the highest honor upon General Mihailovic that this Nation awards to foreign nationals: the Legion of Merit. The official United States policy position after World War II was to accept the fiction that Yugoslavia was a nonaligned Communist state and thus acting wholly independent of the Soviet Union. To nurture this fiction, any information that confirmed the Yugoslavian Communists' betrayal of our war objectives had to be suppressed. It took over a decade for Under Secretary of State, Ed Derwinski, when he was a Member of Congress, to make public the heroism of General Mihailovic and to reveal the betrayal of the United States commitment to freedom by the Communists in Yugoslavia both during and following World War II. Through the historical documentation of Communist methods, yesterday and today, a rear picture emerges of the communist clique which murdered General Mihailovich as well as a majority of his followers and soldiers. The Communist successors to Nazi tyranny destroyed and knowledge to Mihailovich in his own country and benefited through financial assistance from the United States as well as other Western democracies. Reasonable questions arise, after all these years and the irrefutable documentation of the Communist betrayal of freedom in Yugoslavia after defeat of the Nazis, as to why our State Department continues to attempt to perpetuate the absurd notion that Yugoslavian communism represents some kind of blessing to the West. Stalin has to be laughing at Western gullibility from the grave. Why are the lifestyles of the red and famous untouchables? Why is there so little challenge to the reliability of Communist-produced evidence? Is there something in the generous, compassionate nature of Americans that precludes a recognition that the world is divided between the Good guys and the bad guys? Do our own State Department bureaucrats succumb to the charm school appeal of a Gorbachev because his background and Communist history dictate that, or are they simply wishful thinkers? America, as the torch of freedom for mankind at this juncture in history, must critically evaluate the players in the world arena. Why, for example, is General Mihailovich still off limits? His relegation to nonperson status by the Communists who stole Yugoslavia is understandable, for General Mihailovich detested Red Nazis as vehemently as he did Black Nazis, and he was fully aware of the ideological kinship between the two. For freedom loving allies to succumb to a phony distinction between these mutual affronts to every decent value emerging from Western civilization would have baffled General Mihailovich as it baffles every student of history. And yet the United States State Department has still suppressed the mistakes of policymakers who were misled by Communist moles both in British intelligence and our own at the end of World War II. The consequence of this logic tight compartment mentality is that 41 years after the brutal murder of General Mihailovic by the Communists, there is still no record, no memory, no grave, no monument to a certified Western hero. As a result, it ti incumbent upon the Congress of the United States to expose the coverup and deceptions both for the sake of history and to vindicate a great patriot. Our efforts to memoralize courage, justice, integrity, honor, and truth today is essential to secure freedom tomorrow. Hopefully, we can generate within our State Department and amongst our Western allies an awareness of the plight of the defenseless people of Yugoslavia. Just as we must account for every idle word, we must account for every idle silence. Silence, in this instance, means that we have failed our task - that of carrying forward the torch of freedom. Simply labeling the clique of dictators around the world "Marxist" - as if they represent a kind of humanistic approach to life that differs from traditional belief only on the question of embracing transcendentals - is in fact an obscenity. General Mihailovich, ruthlessly murdered by the Communists and relegated to obscurity, is in fact a victim of this obscenity. Suppressing documented facts is a part of the 40-year campaign of disinformation directed against General Mihailovich and his Serbian freedom fighters. God willing, the battle for truth and justice will ultimately prevail, and General Mihailovich's dream for a Yugoslavia free from tyranny will at least become a reality. Mr. Speaker, the following statement comes from Alexsandar Milosevic, Who served as an artillery commander under General Mihailovich. He was an eyewitness to the heroic efforts and sacrifices of the Serbian people to save the lives of downed American airmen: ---- Quoted written statement ---- Windsor, Ontario, Canada. Following the catastrophic war effort in Yugoslavia as early as the middle of July in the year 1941, I placed myself under the command of the then Colonel, Draza Mihailovic., Within the structure of the resistance movement under his command I was assigned the following responsibilities: organizer in the movement, commander of Lepenica Detachment, commander of the Lepenica Brigade, commander of the Second Corps of Sumadia as a pemanent unit, commander of the Western Morava Group of Corps as a temporary strategical unit in the summer of 1944, and the chief of stuff of the Sumadia Assault Corps in the reorganization of 1945 during the movement through Bosnia. During the later transformation into guerrilla forces, in May of the same year, I was once again placed in command of the Second Corps of Sumadia. I remained in that capacity of the Second Corps of Sumadia. I remained in that capacity until June 10, 1946 when, following Draza Mihailovich's fall into communist hands, I crossed the border into Greece. In light of the time I had spent under the command of General Mihailovich and in light of the responsibilities that I had, I was in a situation where I was familiar with many events and circumstances. As the commanding officer in charge of operations in that area I would like to offer eyewitness testimony regarding the rescue and evacuation of American Airmen who were forced to parachute into Serbia. We, under the command of General Mihailovich, in a state of civil war while simultaneously under enemy occupation, entered the year 1944 with a great deal of anxiety as a result of the external political stance toward us, but not without hope. As the year progressed, it become increasingly apparent that the war was ending and that the axis forces would be defeated. As a result, General Mihailovich, began preparations for a final reckoning with the enemy. Orders clearly indicated a shift from guerrilla activities to conventional military actions. By mid-February of 1944, with few exceptions, this was accomplished in the formation of groups of corps tied territorially to fixed districts. Shortly after this, orders were given to form assault corps subdivided into groups which were then sent to strategically significant regions. In the beginning of July of the same year, the Western Morava Group of corps was formed. I was given the order to assume command of this Group of corps. It was centered in the region of Pranjani as the strategical reserve of the High command which was situated in that region. While all this was in the process of being enacted, a completely new phenomenon began to occur. With the beginning of spring, U.S. bomber squadrons began to pass over this region. The frequency of these flights gradually increased until they were daily occurrences. With these aerial operations, we were assigned completely new additional duties. Many crews were forced to parachute from damaged aircrafts. The units of the Ravna Gora Movement, under the command of General Mihailovich with the assistance of all the Serbian people, rescued these fliers and kept them from falling into the hands of the enemy. this was often in battle with full knowledge of the risks. The number of these incidents grew quickly. The High Command, encouraged by the suitability of the terrains as well as its proximity to these occurrences, issued a general order stating that all rescued airmen should be directed to Pranjani, and that the commander of the first Ravna Gora Corps situated there organize their reception, lodging, and food as well as the continuous protection required. the question or their evacuation was undefined for many reasons. For one thing, this was an entirely new situation. Moreover, the position of the West toward us was uncertain. Very soon, however, the conditions for the evacuation of the airmen were created. As it developed, there were many evacuations. But the largest of them occurred on August 10, 1944, from the airfield at Pranjani. From midnight until some time in the morning there were evacuated 252 fliers in sixteen transport planes escorted by fighters. Several days prior to this evacuation there were gathered at the airport at Pranjani a portion of the Western Morava Group of Corps along with the rescued airman. General Mihailovich inspected the troops present and this was followed by a processional march. He then gave a speech before all those present regarding our situation and following this he bade farewell to the airmen. He then spent some time in conversation with the committee representing the airmen under the shade of a stand of oak trees not far from the battlefield while the remaining fliers mingled with the Serbian soldiers and exchanged souvenirs while saying good bye to one another. The supply and defense of this operation was given by the Western Morava Group of Corps as it was situated in the region where this took place. this was a military operation with all the necessary precautions and preparations taken in the event of an attack from either land or air. Fortune had it that preoccupation of the enemy elsewhere prevented any battle from occurring. Irrespective of this, the operation itself was a significant and major united military effort between the U.S. Air Forces and the entire Ravna Gora Movement under the command of General Draza Mihailovich. Specifically, ti include the Western Morava Group of Corps which consisted of the First and Second Corps of Sumadia, the First and Second Corps of Ravna Gora, the Corps of Valjevo ;and Corps of Pozega. The strength of these corps numbered some 7,500 men. At the end of August, there followed two smaller evacuations from Pranjani, then three more evacuations, also of a smaller scope, followed. One took place in the village of Svileuva not Mr from Kiceljeve around September 17th, and two in the region of Boljanicij not far from Doboj. the first occurred at the end of October, and the second on December 27, 1944. All in all there were approximately 600 airmen evacuated of which over 500 were Americans while remainder were from other allied forces. It would take many more words if I were to begin to cite examples which would show with what love and sacrifice the Sebian people, through their Ravna Gora Movement headed by General Mihailovich, participated in these rescues. I leave this to the rescued airmen with the deep belief that among them there is not one who does not have at least one souvenir of remembrance of that effect. I also leave it to these men to tell the American people how much truth there is in the spurious disinformation since emanating from the communist government of Yugoslavia. I would, however, like to emphasize, as commander of the Western Morava Groups of corps, that were to Germans to have attacked during the evacuation of August 10, 1944. our units, although poorly armed and low on ammunition, would have defended the American Fliers to the last man. - A.M. Milosevic ---------- End quote ----------- Mr. Speaker, to summarize the expressions of appreciation to General Mihailovic and his Chetnik forces for their devotion to liberty, their courage and heroism, and their commitment to the United States, the Allied cause, and a free Yugoslavia, let us turn to the remarks of one of the over 500 downed American airmen whole lives were saved by General Mihailovic. I refer, Mr. Speaker, to Maj. Richard L. Felman, USAF, retired, who in a speech before the Serb National Federation [SNF], on July 17 of this year, summarized the feelings of the surviving American airmen as well as those of freedom lovers everywhere: (to be continued) Article: 1635 From: brajovic+@cs.cmu.edu (Vladimir Brajovic) Subject: U.S. Airmen rescued by Chetnics (Congres. Rec. part II) Date: 23 Jul 91 12:01:15 GMT The following is a reprint from congressional record on General Draza Mihailovic Commander-in-Chief of Serbian anti-Nazi forces Chetnics, 1941-1944. It contains truly amazing facts, story, personal testimony and emotion. I include this for all of us to make no further mistakes as to: * who were Cetniks and Draza Mihailovic (Re: ustase and cetnici) * who and what are Serbian people. Due to the length of the artical I am posting it in two parts Vladimir ************************************************** reprinted fro Congressional record, Washington, D.C. Thursday, November 19, 1987. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD - HOUSE (Part two) Mr. Speaker, to summarize the expressions of appreciation to General Mihailovic and his Chetnik forces for their devotion to liberty, their courage and heroism, and their commitment to the United States, the Allied cause, and a free Yugoslavia, let us turn to the remarks of one of the over 500 downed American airmen whole lives were saved by General Mihailovic. I refer, Mr. Speaker, to Maj. Richard L. Felman, USAF, retired, who in a speech before the Serb National Federation [SNF], on July 17 of this year, summarized the feelings of the surviving American airmen as well as those of freedom lovers everywhere: --------- Begin quote ----------- President Stone, Reverend Clergy, Distinguished quests, members of the SNF, and fellow Chetniks: Moja braco i sestre, ("my brothers and sisters" in Serbian language) May I first express my deep appreciation to President Stone and all members of the Serb National Federation for inviting me to your 3 Day Serbian Day Weekend. I know it is a most important event and I am delighted you have asked me to share it with you. Before getting into my speech I would like to acknowledge how appreciated it is that today (July 17th) is the very day in 1946 that General Mihailovich lost his life to a Communist Firing Squad. I say it is appropriate because were it not for Draza Mihailovich and the Grace of God, I would not be shading here before you today. I have said it before and will say it again: I owe my very life to General Mihailovich, the Chetniks and the Serbian people and because of this whenever I get together with the Serbian people it is like a family reunion and fill me with much emotion. If I may state it as simply as possible: "OO MOM SERTZU YA SAM SERBEEN." (This is the pronunciation script of "U mom srcu ja sam Srbin" - in Serbian or "In my heart I am a Serb" - in English.) My feelings, however, go far deeper then just gratitude for saving my life. I say that because when I was shot down in Yugoslavia, I had the opportunity to know first hand what truly remarkable people the Serbians are ... and the bond of brotherhood that we formed during the war continues to this day. In every Serb I met I always found a sense of honor and sense of freedom that is second to none ... and in this day and age I feel privileged to know people who still maintain these values and have such a strong commitment to their God, their family and their heritage. I was in England a while ago to celebrate the European Chetnik Congress and Karageorgevich Day. Needless to say the Serbian Hospitality and food were out of this world. But the outstanding part of my visit was meeting with the Serbian Youth and seeing how intense they were about carrying on their priceless heritage... Their parents told them about the American Airmen that Mihailovich had rescued but I was the first one they met and their questions were endless. I spent a great deal of time with them and came away inspired by their enthusiasm. I am reminded of them as I see the young people in the audience today. If I may I would like to say to them: "Thank God you were blessed with such a proud heritage. I saw with my own eyes the blood shed by your parents and grandparents just so it could be passed on to you .. Be proud of this priceless treasure you have and preserve it the rest of your days... So many of today's youth are troubled and searching for answers in many strange ways. You have all the answers you need right here in your own church and your own heritage." So much for the Sunday Semon, and now I would like to tell you of my first introduction to the Serbian people an how I won my Ravna Gora Badge as an honorary Chetnik. The one good thing the Germans did during WWII was shoot me down, giving me a chance to meet the Serbian people. During World War II, I was returning from an air raid on the Ploesti oil fields in Roumania when my B-24 Bomber was attacked by German ME-109s over Yugoslavia. We managed to shoot down two of them before my pane caught fire and we were forced to bail out from 20,000 feet. As soon as I landed I was immediately surrounded by about 20 Chetniks all shouting "Amerikanski"... Before I knew it they each took turns hugging and kissing me (only the men mind you, not the women). As my leg was bleeding, they carried me to a nearby kucha (house in Serbian) for treatment. They had no medical supplies, but they did have a bottle of slivovitza [Serbian plum brandy] and used it to clean my wound... Once that was done, we all sat around and drank what was left in the bottle. Shortly after that, an elderly man about ninety motioned for me to follow him. I had no idea what he wanted but limped after him until we came to a small wooden chapel. He then got down on his knees, clasped his hand in prayer and motioned for me to kneel down beside him. It was a most unforgettable sight! Here we were: strangers from 2 different countries, we spoke two different languages and practiced two different religions. But in those few moments we were united as brothers kneeling to give thanks for my rescue to the on God we all worship: It was one of the most moving experiences of my life. It would be impossible for me to relate all the many wonderful things the Chetniks and the Serbian people did for me and my fellow American fliers. As our numbers increased, each man would tell of his own personal experiences. They told how the people went hungry in order to give them what little food they had. How many of them slept on the floor so that the Airmen could have the comfort of their beds. How they risked their lives to protect us from the German patrols. Not once did I hear anything but the highest praise from the 500 Americans rescued by General Mihailovich. I feel I should also mention a few words about one of my favorite Chetniks, Corp. Miodrag Stepanovich from Chacak. Miodrag was assigned as my personal bodyguard and was to protect me at all times at the risk of his life. He said Mihailovich told him if he brought news that one hair on my head had been harmed he would be shot on the spot for that meant he had not done his duty. Moidrag was with me at all times while I was hiding out at different farmhouses. At night we would sit around the fire and talk about our families, our homes and our dreams for the future when the war was over. No matter where we went Miodrag would brag about how he taught me to count in Serbian. Let's see if I still remember ... Yeadan, dava, tree, cetire, pet, shest, sedam, osam, devet, deset ... He also taught me to dance the kola and drink slivovitza. how to ask for thing such as: Molim, die-me voda, pelle, yaya, gebonitza and whenever we saw a pretty girl it was "Lepa devoyka" ... Dobar dan, yutro, veche. There are many memories, pleasant and otherwise, that still live with me after all these years. But the one I am about to relate had the biggest effect on me because it contained all the values that Mihailovich and the Serbian people stand for: A few days after the Germans had seen us bail out and counted ten parachutes, they sent an ultimatum to the Chetnik Commander in the hills to either turn over my crew of ten to them or they would wipe out an entire village of 200 women and children. As strangers in their land, I expected we would turn ourselves over to the Germans and be put in a prison camp. This we felt would be small enough price to pay for saving the lives of 200 of their own people. But Gen. Mihailovich would hear none of it... He told us how life is just a precious to the Serb as it is to the American. But because it is so precious, the price comes high! The Serb had spent his entire history fighting off different enemies in order to protect his freedom, and that life without freedom meant nothing to them. He said one American flyer returning to his base and dropping one bomb on our common enemy could do more for their cause of freedom then 200 of their women and children whom they dearly love. The Serbs have a saying he told me: "Bolye grob, nego rob." - "Better a grave then a slave." Their choice was as simple as that. The next day I watched as the Germans burned down the village. I could go on for hours telling of the many other moving experiences I had, but knowing of the cruel fate that lay in store for Gen. Mihailovich would open up old wounds and make further speaking very difficult. The highlight of my stay, needless to say, was meeting our beloved "Chica Draza." The first time I saw him he was walking up a hill surrounded by laughing children throwing flowers in his path. I couldn't believe my eyes. here was the Commander-in-Chief of an allied army of over 300,000 doing away with all the fancy protocol of his high office and dressed like any other soldier. It was then I understood why everyone spoke of him with such love and admiration practically every Serb I spoke with told me of the time Chica Draza ate at his farmhouse, christened his baby or danced the kola with him. On that particular day, Gen. Mihailovich had come to greet us and assure us every possible protection for our safety. After greeting each one of us personally, his troops put on a review in our honor. Mind you, this was done with the Germans just a few miles away. After the review, the Airmen gathered around the General and we all sat on the ground under a huge tree. Speaking through an interpreter he told us how he had always admired the freedom-loving principles of America and of his dream that someday his people could enjoy these same liberties. he then went on to relate how disappointed he was that the Allies had abandoned him. But then, without any bitterness, he asked only that we take the truth back to our Homeland about the cruel lies invented about him by his communist enemies. Gen. Mihailovich then went on to say that with or without allied support he would continue his fight against any and all dictatorship that threatened his homeland be they the Nazis or the Communists. As I recall his actual words on that day wee: "I will continue to fight this course of mankind no matter what form it comes in. If I am to die, then die I shell ... sad because I have been deserted by those who profess to believe in democracy, but gratified that I have fought bravely and honestly and refused to compromise my cause. As he spoke these words, I could see there were tears in his eyes. At the time, I did not fully understand what he meant, but years later, after I got to know Serbian history, about Kosovo, the Turkish Invasion and St. Sava, only then did I understand the depth of his emotion that day. Before getting into the concluding part of my speech, I would like to make brief mention of a matter of a personal nature which is added reason for my admiration of the Serbian people. Besides being one of the American Airmen rescued, by the Serbian people, I am also a Jew! It is a matter of historical fact that Serbia was one of the very few countries where Antisemitism was not permitted. In the old kingdom of Serbia, and later n the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, the Jews were, by law, equal members of the community and enjoyed all the rights and privileges of other citizens. This is so very remarkable when you consider the persecution of the Jewish people throughout history. The historical goodwill between the Serbs and the Jews does not seem strange when you consider the many parallels in our history. We both suffered cruel persecution, both have been driven from our homeland and today we are both dispersed throughout the world. One other amazing similarity is that both our peoples fought battles to the death for their belief in the freedom and dignity of man. The Jews at Masada and the Serbs in Kosovo. In keeping with this same love of freedom, many Serbs risked their lives during World War II to save countless Jews from Nazi death camps. this is something we can never forget and for which I and The Jewish People will always be grateful. If I may, I would like to move on now to more current matters. Last year the American airmen commemorated the 40th Anniversary of the tragic death of General Mihailovich. It was also the year we celebrated the fact that we finally fulfilled our wartime promise to him that we would bring the truth back when we returned to our homeland. Probably the most gratifying moment in that 40th Anniversary Year was the day General Smith and I (in the name of over 500 Americans, and for the first time on American soil) dedicated a Plaque to Gen. Mihailovich and affixed ti to his statue on the of the St.Sava Monastery in Libertyville.. On our Plaque is inscribed the words of gratitude from the airmen and their families and a replica of the Legion of Merit post-humously awarded to him by President Truman. Permit me to read what President Truman had to say in awarding him the highest combat award our nation can bestow on a foreign national: "LEGION OF MERIT - CHIEF COMMANDER: General Dragoljub Mihailovich distinguished himself in an outstanding manner as Commander-in-Chief of the Yugoslavian Army Forces and later as Minister of War by Organizing and leading important resistance forces against the enemy which occupied Yugoslavia, from December 1941 to December 1944. Through the undaunted efforts of his troops, many United States airmen were rescued and returned safely to friendly control. General Mihailovich and his forces, although lacking adequate supplies, and fighting under extreme hardships, contributed materially to the Allied cause, and were instrumental in obtaining a final Allied victory. March 29, 1948. Harry S. Truman." We now know that from this day forward there is a symbol on American soil that established a permanent bond between Gen. Mihailovich, President Truman and 500 grateful Americans... and it is here for all the world to see! Since the end of WWII we have made great strides in trying to repay our debt of honor to the man who saved our lives. Permit me to read just a partial list of those who have joined us in support of General Mihailovic: Presidents Truman, Eisenhower, Nixon and Reagan; The United States Senate; hundreds of United States Congressmen; the Secretary of the Air Force, Thomas Reed; The Department of Interior; The National Capital Memorial Advisory committee; the United States Ambassador to Yugoslavia, Laurence Silberman; the Chairman of the house Committee on Foreign Affairs, Clement Zablocki; a United States Commission of Inquiry; the Arizona State Senate; the governors of Alaska, Kansas, Kentucky, Indiana, Massachusetts, Nebraska, and Texas; the mayor of Los Angeles, Tom Bradley; Bishops Firmilian, Iriney and Manning; John Wayne; The American Legion; Polish War Veterans; George Me
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Mi smo u stvari SVI 'pansrbisti'!!! Mi to ne shvatamo, ali mozda, jednog dana... Article: 1607 From: CZSS@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CZSS000) Subject: panserbism Date: 23 Jul 91 18:53:39 GMT PANSERBISM, YUGOSLAV CANCER The drama of non-Serbian peoples, victimes of Serbian imperialist policy In the moment when the whole Europe enters a phase of democracy, freedom and so wanted peace, the acts of violence and terrorism multiply against the young democracies of Croatia and of Slovenia. The Albanian population, the majority in Kosovo (1800000 Albanians against 200000 Serbs), is not spared itself from Serbian authorities who deprived them of all the rights, being national, political or social. The rest of Yugoslav republics had experienced the same regime of oppression until the fall of communism. The democratization in Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Macedonia, has not proceeded in accord with the taste of the central power in Belgrade and Great-Serbian hegemonists. Once more, Serbia put itself on the margin of Europe and stays there as the very last rampart of communism and bolshevism. Serbian nationalists and irredentists, bolstered by an anti-Croatian and anti-Slovenian campaign, antidemocratic wave billowing from Belgrade, are engaged in the process of committing terrorist acts. The goal is to oust the democratic governments recently installed in Croatia and Serbia and to provoke a civil war which would destabilize Europe, and threaten peace in the whole world. This Serbian hegemonist nationalism is the central issue of Yugoslav interethnic and political problems. Since 1918, it aims at transforming Yugoslavia (the formation of South Slavic peoples) into a great Serbia dominated by the Serbian center of power. The methods used are well- known: CALUMNIES, ABUSES, ASSASINATIONS, FLAGRANT VIOLATIONS OF HUMAN RIGHTS, UNSCRUPULOUS TERRORIST ACTIONS. The origin of this collective psychosis can be found one more time in the intrinsic difficulty of the Serbian people to conceive a peaceful cohabitation with its neighbors, under any terms comprising absence of Serbian domination. In this region of the Balkans, the irrational erupts with the risk of unchaining the worst cataclysms. Jovan Raskovic, one of Serbian leaders in Croatia, a psychiatrist, has given this diagnosis for his own people, he identifies himself with: "The Serbian people is crazy!" Croatia proclaimed its wish to see Yugoslavia transformed into a confederation of sovereign states. That made it enough for Serbians to rebel against the process which would not endanger them at all. In the same time they definitely made public their wish to maintain their privileged status, enjoyed by them since 1918 in Croatia, as well as everywhere in Yugoslavia. This belief vested into the mission of governing the Balkan peninsula, they interpret every resistance to their hegemony as a deadly threat. Such an attitude has a name: THE PANSERBISM. This is a veritable cancer whose metastases have not ceased to poison the Balkan peninsula through 150 years. Today it is particularly virulent in Kosovo and in Croatia, because of its access to the Adriatic Sea, which is what Serbians always wanted so badly. On June 28, 1914, the assassination of the archduke Franz-Ferdinand (a strike performed by the agitators of Serbian minister NIKOLA PASIC), provoked the outburst of the First World War. The rest of the story is known, Serbia ended up with seizing for itself substantial benefits, but at price of 8 millions of dead and 2000 millions of wounded Europeans! Since then, their "Slavic brethren": Croats, Slovenes and others, underwent a process of serbization in the vein of old byzantine reflexes like tortures, imprisonments, murders... The cohabitation between Croats and Serbs degenerated quickly and an open conflict broke out of, conspicuously flagrant, incompatibilities. The Croatian confederalism was crushed by Serbian centralism and unitarism. Stjepan Radic, slain in the middle of the full parliament by Serbian deputy Punisa Racic, had beautifully asserted: "Our task is to europeanize Balkans and not to balkanize Croats and Slovenes." This cold and calculated barbarism led Albert Einstein and Heinrich Mann to protest publicly in a letter addressed to the International League of Human Rights; it concluded with the following appeal: "WE THINK THAT THE INTERNATIONAL LEAGUE OF HUMAN RIGHTS HAS THE OBLIGATION TO ACT PROMPTLY AND INCITE ALL THE FRIENDS OF FREEDOM AND HUMAN RIGHTS, TO RAISE THEIR MOST VIGOROUS PROTESTS AGAINST THE REGIME OF TERROR WHICH REIGNS IN CROATIA. ALL THE NATIONS HAVE THE TASK OF PROTECTING THIS SMALL EUROPEAN NATION, CHARACTERIZED BY THEIR CULTURE AND PACIFISM." We are far off from the 1928! The same regime of terror reigns there now in the 1991, in Croatian villages with Serbian minorities, since according to the Serbian belief, all the territories inhabited by Serbs form together a big unified Serbian country. Consequently, everywhere in the world where there are some Serbs, there are lands of the "GREAT SERBIA". If, through years, some Serbian immigrants live in your neighborhood enjoying your hospitality and your level of life, you take risk of letting your own land annexed by the rulers from Belgrade, because if the logic of Serbs igniting the Serbian minorities in Croatia would be extended to the whole Earth, eventually the world would see the fantasy about Great Serbia materialized. The Chetnik (Serbian elite national army units) menace is expressed towards Croats by their chief Mihailovic who declared: "One third of Croats has to be killed, another one expatriated and the third one will have to bow themselves." As a matter of fact Croats are a nation possessing since the 7th century their own state structures; their cultural traditions are authentically Western and their economic structures originate much more from the Central Europe than from the Balkans. Using their repressive apparatus, Serbia imposed its laws upon other republics aiming at appropriating them by virtue of its dominance. Here are some facts which say a lot: -In 19500, 78% of the Croatian policemen were Serbs. -13 out of 14 military divisions stationed in Croatia and Bosnia had a Serb for commandant. -Between 1969 and 1978, 75% of the employees of the federal bureaucracy were Serbs, against 6 to 8% of Croats. -From 1960 through 1970, Serbia had a lion's part with 60% of investment credits into tourism on the Croatian coast. -Within the old Croatian communist party, 30% of membership were Serbs, (compared to 12% of the population, remember). Here it is what Croatia has lived through since 1945 until 1990. It has no intention any more to support neither imperialism, nor colonialism of Serbia. That fact enraged Serbian nationalists haunted by the memory of their old fancies. The president Milosevic shouted out, in one moment of seeing himself as a loser: "One thing is certain, we do not know acquire things save through the battle!" With declarations of that kind, is there any space for negotiations? Fortunately the world has started getting better information about the mosaic of South Slaves and to discover the roots of evil which is driving the Balkans to suffer. It is clear that in Croatia and Slovenia there is nothing like nationalist and extremist gouvernments, but there are moderate regimes, democratically elected, who desire to integrate their countries into Western Europe again. CROATS AND SLOVENES ARE READY, MORE THAN EVER, TO RESIST THE INVASION TO PROTECT THEIR FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS AND TO MAKE THEMSELVES RESPECTED BY EVERYBODY. (Drawn from "LE PANSERBISME, CANCER YOUGOSLAVE", Christophe DOLBEAU, B.P. 5005 - 69245 Lyon Cedex 05, FRANCE) Article: 1627 From: vandoorn@qut.edu.au Subject: Re: panserbism Date: 24 Jul 91 21:57:08 GMT >>> >>>The Albanian population, the majority in Kosovo (1800000 Albanians >>>against 200000 Serbs), is not spared itself from Serbian authorities >>>who deprived them of all the rights, being national, political or >>>social. The rest of Yugoslav republics had experienced the same >>-I have asked that Q once, but have had no answer. I would like to ask >> that question again: please, cite me single human right Albanian >> minority in Serbia does not have. >> Thank You. >> >I have a philosophical problem with your question. Groups of >people don't have rights, individuals do. Let me try to list >just few of individual's rights that have (in my opinion) >been violated. -When you start thinking realistic,you will see no problem with that question. >Right to peaceful assemble (the curfew imposed in several Albanian >populated centers such as Podujevo forbids more than 3 people on >the street). -Who is talking about peaceful assemble?Yes,I know.You and "Delo". Last time when shiptar's were "in peaceful assemble" they are kill two policeman and they are break into serbian houses in Podujevo terorize Serbian people looking for poison. >Right to the fair trial (several members of different Albanian parties >have been detained without formal charges, the most prominent one >was Azem Vllasi). Several people are still imprisoned (check 1991 >Amnesty International report) for their political belief -Question for you: when Serbian people living at Kosovo and Metohija can expect fair "trial" from you and all yours "democratic" friends,about what is truth in Kosovo case? >Right to health (some M.D.'s who treated Albanian people during >demonstrations have been discharged from hospitals, some were >physically harassed /interviews in Delo, 1990/) - Please,what are you talking about?Name dr.Sehadeta Mekuli means anything to you?(I have more names,if like). >Right to enter the country of one's origin and to leave the country >(some Albanians have not been issued the passports although they >requested it and they have not been indited) -Maybe you know number of shiptars which have Albania citizenship and they have houses and properties,what is against YU federal low. >Right to organized labor (several Albanian workers were dismissed >because they participated in the general strike last year, >several shops' licenses were revoked because they remained >closed during the demonstrations) -Maybe you can tell us why shiptars dont have "right to organized labor"(sic). If you have problem to tell us that,please ask me.I will explain this using my bad english,but still everybody will understand.Even you. >Right to representation (that may be outdated but the Democratic >Congress of I. Rugova was forbidden on the basis that it >advocates the secession of Kosovo to Albania - Mr. Rugova >never gave any indication that this is in fact his platform, >according to S. Maliqi reports in Telex /1989/ he even denounced >such plans) -Look,Jure,why you try advocate something about what you havent a clue? Shiptars (das'nt mater from which side or party) have JUST ONE TARGET: SECESSION OF KOSOVO (to Albania or like independent state). >Serbia did offer Kosovo inhabitants to vote for representatives >of Serbian parties, Albanian were outlawed and that resulted >in boycott of elections by residents of Albanian ethnicity. -Read again your writing about "Right to representation"; >And finally: according to what law did Serbian Assembly dissolve >the Kosovo Assembly and under what law did Serbian Attorney General >issue arrest warrants for Albanian representatives who voted >for change of Kosovo status from autonomous region to republic? >The decision itself may be unconstitutional but that is in the >domain of Yu constitutional court and this court did not rule >in favor of oppression of Albanian elected representatives. -And finally: KOSOVO I METOHIJA IS SERBIAN LAND.SHIPTARS ARE NOT NATION. AND NEVER AND EVER THEY WILL HAVE ANY PART OF KOSOVO LAND. DO YOU KNOW WHY? BECAUSE KOSOVO IS SERBIAN SOUL.BUT THIS IS TO UNDERSTANDABLE FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU,MY DEAR "FRIEND" JURE. pozdrav goran >-- > Jure Marn >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > marn@wright.seas.ucla.edu ! kdor visoko leta ... > Thank you for flowers, flames and fun ! ... ima dober razgled ..ume dobro i padne (zar ne zmajcek?) Article: 1630 From: spit@fys.ruu.nl (Werenfried Spit) Subject: Re: panserbism Date: 24 Jul 91 10:05:47 GMT In <1991Jul24.165708.32233@qut.edu.au> vandoorn@qut.edu.au writes: >-And finally: KOSOVO I METOHIJA IS SERBIAN LAND.SHIPTARS ARE NOT NATION. > AND NEVER AND EVER THEY WILL HAVE ANY PART OF KOSOVO LAND. > DO YOU KNOW WHY? > BECAUSE KOSOVO IS SERBIAN SOUL.BUT THIS IS TO UNDERSTANDABLE > FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU,MY DEAR "FRIEND" JURE. I think (being a complete outsider) that reactions like this from some Serbians, and similar reactions from federal Yugoslavian government to critical remarks from Amnesty International cause Serbians to have the bad press they have these days in western Europe. There is also, in my opinion, a clear inconsistency in this kind of argumentation. Either you believe in historical rights; then Kosovo is Serbian (despite its Albanian population), but also Krajina is Kroatian (despite its Serbian population). But I think this kind of reasoning ultimately leads nowhere, as for exactly the same reason Kroatia is Austrian and Serbia Turkish. Or even the whole Yugoslavian territory is Makedonian. Or choose your own favourite period in history. (Mind that the Austrians and Turqs once invaded the region, but the Serbians and Kroations did exactly the same, only earlier in history; and so did the Greeks, and the Scyths and etc....) Or you believe in the rights of the people that live in the region now. In that case Krajina is Serbian, Kosovo is Albanian (which doen not mean part of the stae of Albania). Ultimately this kind of reasoning leads to a complete disintegration of most of central Europe and the Balkan into tiny political entities of sometimes no more than a single village. You can't take both points of view at the same time. What this shows is that *any* form of nationalism leads to war and disorder in regions where different people live mingled. For the very same reason mss Thatchers stubborn stressing of the absolute sovereignity of nations will not work in the end. Look at Ulster, look at Lebanon. Article: 1610 From: brajovic+@cs.cmu.edu (Vladimir Brajovic) Subject: Five Facts Date: 23 Jul 91 20:52:30 GMT Reprinted from The Glove and Mail Thursday, July 4, 1990. *********************************************************** MORE THEN JUST A CASE OF RIGHT VERSUS WRONG There are 1,000 years of complications and contradictions behind the breakaway of Slovenia and Croatia by Alexander Morley The case for Slovenian and Croatian independence is often presented n simple terms. It goes like this: Slovenes and Croats should have the right to re-establish their own autonomous states, based on civil liberties and free-market economies, but the Communist, Serb-controlled Yugoslavian federation continues to occupy, oppress and deny them. It is a compelling story, and it resonates with the recent history of Eastern Europe's own liberation. It is also untrue. Here are five little-known facts about the contending ethnic groups of Yugoslavia that confound the simple explanations of Croat and Slovene nationalists. * 1 * Serbs, Croats and Slovenes are all of the same ethnic stock. The name Yugoslavia simply means "land of the South Slavs." In the sixth century, large numbers of relatively undifferentiated Slavs migrated south from beyond the Carpathian mountains and settled in three mountains and settled in three distinct regions of the Balkan peninsula. these were the South Slavs, and over the course of subsequent centuries they become differentiated into Orthodox Serbs and Catholic Croats and Slovenes. The chauvinistic premise of Croatian nationalism (and to a lesser extent Slovenian nationalism) is the innate superiority of their people over the "lazy, dissolute" Serbs, who have been tainted by the Orthodox church and the Ottoman Turks. Such talk has been toned down for the liberal sensibilities of Western governments, but the sentiments are openly expressed in the republics. The reality is that they all share the same Slavic origin. * 2 * In the 1,000-year history of the South Slavs, the Slovenes have never organized themselves into a sovereign state. Elucidation the Yugoslav problem in last month's Atlantic magazine, Robert Kaplan described "the Principal illness of the Balkans" as being the "conflicting dreams of lost imperial glory." But this cannot be made to apply to Slovenia, for the Slovenes never had any imperial glory to regain. They tenaciously held to their own variation of the South Slavic language but they lived from the beginning under Romans, Germans or Austrian Hapsburgs. Contrary to much of Slovenian rhetoric, their current claim to a sovereign state has no historical precedent. This does not mean they have no right to sovereignty; it just demonstrates that no other ethnic group (last of all the "dirty" Serbs) took it away from them and must now return it. * 3 * The last independent Croatia was a fascist state. Unlike the Slovenes, the Croats do have a historical precedent for their recent declaration of independence, but it is an odious one. Trained in Italy by Mussolini, nationalist leader Ante Pavelic and his Ustasha militia were welcomed back into Croatia by the Catholic clergy in 1941 after Hitler had forcibly ended the first Yugoslav union. They established a nominally independent Croatia (that Included most of Bosnia) and, in return for Hitler's support, set about deporting Jews and Gypsies to the concentration camps of Central Europe. For their own part they were even more zealous in "purifying" Croatia of alien peoples - primarily the more then two million ethnic Serbs living within Croatian territory. One-third were to be exterminated, one-third deported and the rest converted from Orthodoxy to Catholicism. The Ustasha carried this out only too effectively, even shocking the Germans SS, who began to worry about a Serbian backlash. The pogrom against the Serbs was judged at Nuremburg to have amounted to genocide. Estimates of the numbers of Serbs killed range from 350,000 to 750,000. It is thus not surprising that the 500,000 ethnic Serbs who now live in Croatia have armed themselves and expressed their wish to secede from an independent Croatian republic. * 4 * The Yugoslav union was first formed in 1918 - at the request of Slovene and Croat leaders. Contemporary Croat and Slovene separatists contend that their oppressor is the Yugoslav Federal State, described as being a cove for Greater Serbia, a totalitarian Community tyranny, or both. Whatever truth exists in these claims, neither the Slovene nor the Croats can plausible maintain that they were made to join a federal union of South Slavs against their will. On the contrary, the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (renamed Yugoslavia in 1929) was initiated immediately after the end of the First ;World war with the full cooperation of Croat and Slovene representatives who wanted the Serbian army to protect them from Italy's revanchist claims to Istria and Dalmatia. The second Yugoslavia was a product of President Josip Broz Tito and his watered-down Communist ideology. though an ardent Yugoslav, Tito was born a Croat. And before he died he sought to restrict Serbia by carving two semi-autonomous provinces (Vojvodina and Kosovo) from the Serbian republic. The point is simply that the second Yugoslav union cannot be construed as a Greater Serbia, and that the leading Communist of modern Yugoslavia was, in fact, a Croat. * 5 * Milan Kucan and Franjo Tudjman, presidents of Slovenia and Croatia, were top government ministers under Tito's regime. In other words, these two men who have been wooing America and the European Community with the talk of free markets, civil rights and Communist oppression were themselves powerful Communists. There has been some fast ideological footwork since Tito died in 1980. This should alert Western leaders that the situation between Slovenia and Croatia on the one hand and Serbia on the other ti not a simple confrontation of frustrated democrats and oppressive Communists. the various people of Yugoslavia do have profound grievances. Most Serbs can ell you of a father, mother, uncle, aunt or grandparent who died at the hands of nationalistic Croats during the Second World War. The complaints of Croats and Slovenes (not to mention Macedonians, Bosnian Muslims and ethnic Albanians) arise out of the frustration of more then a millennium of foreign domination. But the simplistic and often chauvinistic nationalism of the republics is not the best way forward; not least because the ethnic groups have become geographically mixed. Partition along republican lines and confederal system of government offers no easy, lasting solution. (Alexander Morley is a Toronto-based writer who recently spent several months in the Balkans.) ****************************************************** To learn more about (early) Slavs see Encyclopedia Britanica (for example). Vladimir
srbija.77 zonjic,
Ako je ovo pre bilo predugo evo jednog kratkog i dobronamerno-kritickog clanka iz prosle replike. Izdvojio sam ga jer stvarno mislim da vredi! Article: 1630 From: spit@fys.ruu.nl (Werenfried Spit) Subject: Re: panserbism Date: 24 Jul 91 10:05:47 GMT In <1991Jul24.165708.32233@qut.edu.au> vandoorn@qut.edu.au writes: >-And finally: KOSOVO I METOHIJA IS SERBIAN LAND.SHIPTARS ARE NOT NATION. > AND NEVER AND EVER THEY WILL HAVE ANY PART OF KOSOVO LAND. > DO YOU KNOW WHY? > BECAUSE KOSOVO IS SERBIAN SOUL.BUT THIS IS TO UNDERSTANDABLE > FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU,MY DEAR "FRIEND" JURE. I think (being a complete outsider) that reactions like this from some Serbians, and similar reactions from federal Yugoslavian government to critical remarks from Amnesty International cause Serbians to have the bad press they have these days in western Europe. There is also, in my opinion, a clear inconsistency in this kind of argumentation. Either you believe in historical rights; then Kosovo is Serbian (despite its Albanian population), but also Krajina is Kroatian (despite its Serbian population). But I think this kind of reasoning ultimately leads nowhere, as for exactly the same reason Kroatia is Austrian and Serbia Turkish. Or even the whole Yugoslavian territory is Makedonian. Or choose your own favourite period in history. (Mind that the Austrians and Turqs once invaded the region, but the Serbians and Kroations did exactly the same, only earlier in history; and so did the Greeks, and the Scyths and etc....) Or you believe in the rights of the people that live in the region now. In that case Krajina is Serbian, Kosovo is Albanian (which doen not mean part of the stae of Albania). Ultimately this kind of reasoning leads to a complete disintegration of most of central Europe and the Balkan into tiny political entities of sometimes no more than a single village. You can't take both points of view at the same time. What this shows is that *any* form of nationalism leads to war and disorder in regions where different people live mingled. For the very same reason mss Thatchers stubborn stressing of the absolute sovereignity of nations will not work in the end. Look at Ulster, look at Lebanon.
srbija.78 zonjic,
Ehej... Pa ja stalno lepim replike ovdi, a i ne pitam sta mislite o tome? Ako gusim, recite!!!
srbija.79 dejanr, -> #78, zonjic
>> Ehej... Pa ja stalno lepim replike ovdi, a i ne pitam sta mislite o tome? >> Ako gusim, recite!!! Ne gušiš, ali bi mi se više sviđalo da ovo ide u NOVOSTI/yu.novosti ili NOVOSTI/world.news (zavisno od prirode), malo je preveliko za FORUM a tamo koga ne interesuje može lepo resign!
srbija.80 balinda, -> #74, zolika
>> Bas juce (24.07.91.) prlazio sam novosadskom ulicom koja se >> do pre mozda koji dan zvala imenom Salvadora Aljendea i imam >> sta da vidim: novo ime ulice je ulica Kralja Petra I ! >> Ove nase vlasti su izgleda bas zurile da novi zakon primene >> u praksi... A što je baš Salvador Aljende PRVI zaslužio da bude "skinut"? :( Ipak tu nisu čista posla. (?) Zato: >> Izgleda duvaju neki novi vetrovi. stoji, ali ni ovo nisu oni pravi. :( Salvador Aljende je jedan od malobrojnih boraca za socijana prava koji je (možda?) i zaslužio da ima ulicu. U svakom slučaju postoje hiljade drugih koji su preči. P.S. Izgleda da su opet veze proradile. :)
srbija.81 zonjic, -> #80, balinda
Bez obzira na sve, ne bi trebalo davati imena ulicama i trgovima po revolucionarima, narocito ne svetskim. Vecito bijemo neke tudje bitke, solidarisemo se sa svima, a sa sobom najmanje.
srbija.82 iboris, -> #80, balinda
>> >> Izgleda duvaju neki novi vetrovi. >> >> stoji, ali ni ovo nisu oni pravi. :( Salvador Aljende je jedan od >> malobrojnih boraca za socijana prava koji je (mozda?) i zasluzio da ima >> ulicu. U svakom slucaju postoje hiljade drugih koji su preci. Tacno. Prvo ona nasa Beogradska ulica izmedju Slavije i Terazija, pa onda sve ulice sa imenima "slovenackih revolucionara" (neka mi neko navede ime bar jedne slovenacke jedinice iz II rata koja je izasla iz Slovenije) , pa zatim bulevar na Novom Beogradu koji nosi jedno takvo ime ... Ima ih ,samo ne znam sta se cekalo do sada. Ali ne bih ja samo ulice , ima tu i muzeja (!!!) , cvetnih kuca (!!!) i ostalih gradjevina kojima treba menjati ime. Zasto se muzej u kosutnjaku (da mu ne spominjem ime) ne bi zvao "MUZEJ SRPSKE VOJSKE" , i da se postavka u njemu prilagodi imaenu , naravno. A sadasnju postavku muzeja bih gurnuo na gomilu ispred muzeja , pokupio crvenu bandu i naterao da igraju kozaracko kolo uz pesmu "RACUNAJTE NA NAS". Malo modifikovati reci , pa umesto : " U ime svih nas iz pedeset i neke" , pevati : " U ime svih nas iz prosloga veka".
srbija.83 balinda, -> #81, zonjic
>> Bez obzira na sve, ne bi trebalo davati imena ulicama i trgovima >> po revolucionarima, narocito ne svetskim. Vecito bijemo neke >> tudje bitke, solidarisemo se sa svima, a sa sobom najmanje. U potpunosti se slažem. (O promeni naziva ulica, bilo je reči na samom početku teme gde.smo u (onom prastarom :)) Forumu.) Ja bih možda bio još radikalniji pa bih rekao da se (svugde u svetu) na (mahom) plavim tablama nalaze najveće ubice i hoštapleri. Teško da se bilo gde može naći takva galerija probisveta i bitangi kao što se nalaze na mnogim ćoškovima ulica širom sveta. No, to je samo još jedan dokaz da se običnom čoveku ne sme verovati. Upravo takvo javno mnjenje čini da mali lopov bude loš, a veliki bude revolucionar. Upravo je kokošije osećanje nečijem pripadanju odredilo da masovni ubica bude idol a pojedinačni bude kriminalac. U tom smislu, treba biti VEOMA oprezan kome pružiti takvu čast. Verovatno je bolje i ne davati imena ulicama po ličnostima jer će se tako, sigurno, mnogo manje puta pogrešiti. Međutim, ustao sam u "zaštitu lika i dela" :))) Salvadora Aljendea, SAMO zarad demagogije koja prati novokomponovanu vlast. Pored toga i ova vlast se ponovo određuje prema trenutnim političkim potrebama (otuda valjda ulica Kralja Petra I?) a ne prema, koliko toliko, realnim parametrima. Dakle, ne mnogo drugačije od prošle. (Jel' to beše neka druga vlast? ;)) žini mi se da za Aljendeom niko neće "plakati" pa je tu najmanja šteta pokupiti još koji jeftin poen. Ako je Salvador Aljende najveći zlikovac koga imamo u nazivima ulica, blago nama. Već je bilo reči da su se u Srbiji menjale (u krvi!!!) čak i dinastije, ali se nisu menjali nazivi ulica.
srbija.84 zonjic, -> #83, balinda
Apelujem na sezamovce, da apelujemo na vlast, da se Ulici Kralja Aleksandra vrati njeno pravo ime, a izbrise se naziv Bulevar revolucije.
srbija.85 zonjic, -> #84, zonjic
Sta bi sa Ul. Mose Pijade??? I'm still standing?!
srbija.86 dejanr, -> #84, zonjic
>> Apelujem na sezamovce, da apelujemo na vlast, da se Ulici Kralja Aleksandra >> vrati njeno pravo ime, a izbrise se naziv Bulevar revolucije. Uzgred budi rečeno, to ime NIJE po kralju Aleksandru koji napravi Jugoslaviju, nego po Aleksandru Obrenoviću, valjda onom što ga ubiše početkom veka. Ovim ne kažem da ne treba vratiti ime ulici, samo uzgred pominjem zbog ponekog ko o tome možda nije obavešten.
srbija.87 ivujanic, -> #73, maleksic
>>hvalim Voju Seselja. Silazak komunista sa vlasti je veoma bitna >>stvar da bi se izbegla strana vojna intervencija protiv Srbije. Ako >>brzo ne skinemo komuniste, Srbije nece biti, pa prema tome nece biti >>ni dileme oko izbora novog srpskog rezima. Svet se mora uveriti da >>Srbija nije komunisticka!!! Zato je cak i pozeljno da posle pada >>krvavog Milosevicevog rezima vlast preuzme radikalno >>antikomunisticka stranka, pa bi u toj situaciji izvestan vid fasizma Ma kakva vojna intervencija usred Evrope?! Pa svet odavno to u civilizovanim zemljama (a tu smo još uvek i mi) ne radi, dovoljno je ekonomski izolovati zemlju, i gladni Srbi će sami skinuti vlast. Srbija na žalost JESTE komunistička, i to je dokazala na izborima. Nemojte mi spominjati procenat onih koji su izašli na izbore i izvoditi neku matematiku po kojoj komunisti nisu dobili ni polovinu glasova, jer će se lako desiti da komunisti pobede i na sledećim izborima. Oni koji nisu izašli na izbore glasali su ZA. Mićunović je previše pametan za ovu zemlju, a ostala opozicija kao da je pala s Marsa! >>- Monarhija, dinastija Karadjordjevica. Istina, neki nisu izricito >> za, ali nisu ni protiv (a to se svodi na isto, zar ne?). Baš bi bilo lepo opet vratiti tradiciju, krunu... Kada se to sa te strane posmatra, O.K. Ali ne po svaku cenu, pa taj nesuđeni kralj jedva natuca srpski, sad se setio svojih korena, a 40 godina je 'ladio jaja po Engleskoj a da niko nije ni čuo za njega. Još nešto: niti on, a još manje njegova deca liče na Srbe, i to mu je najveća mana, odmah uz dosadašnju neaktivnost. Pa deca verovatno ni "mama" ne znaju da kažu na srpskom :) Pozdrav, Ivica
srbija.88 ivujanic, -> #74, zolika
>> Bas juce (24.07.91.) prlazio sam novosadskom ulicom koja se do pre mozda >> koji dan zvala imenom Salvadora Aljendea i imam sta da vidim: novo ime ulice >> je ulica Kralja Petra I ! Ove nase vlasti su izgleda bas zurile da novi zakon >> primene u praksi... Ili neko od novosadjana vise zna o cemu je rec? Izgleda >> duvaju neki novi vetrovi. Možda je konačno došlo i vreme da Đorđe Balašević dobije ulicu u Novom Sadu. On reče na koncertu da neće bilo kakvu, ošacov'o je Bulevar (Maršala Tita). Ivica
srbija.89 dgavrilovic, -> #77, zonjic
>> Mind that the Austrians and >> Turqs once invaded the region, but the Serbians and Kroations >> did exactly the same, only earlier in history; Moraću da repliciram istoriske istine radi. Vizantinski car Konstantin Porfirogenit navodi da su Hrvati i Srbi na ove prostore došli po pozivu cara Iraklija kako bi naselili od rata opustele krajeve. Pošto su se svi istoriski izvori iz vremena Iraklija bavili skoro isključivo zbivanjima na istočnoj granici carstva (to su bila vremena najveće opasnosti za hrišćanstvo kada su mazdaisti oteli čak i relikviju Svetoga Krsta), nemamo pouzdanih potvrda da su ove Porfirogenitove reči tačne, ali je već i njegova izjava, kao tvrdnja zakonitog cara, dovoljna da boravak Srba i Hrvata na Balkanu učini legalnim. To naravno ne važi za Bugare, Makedonce (ako ih iko još razdvaja) i Slovence. Prvi su se nasilno doselili a drugi nisu nikada ni boravili na prostoru koji je de jure bio pod patronatom vladara Istočnog Rimskog Carstva.
srbija.90 mkiric, -> #87, ivujanic
> pa taj nesuđeni kralj jedva natuca srpski, sad se setio svojih korena, a > 40 godina je 'ladio jaja po Engleskoj a da niko nije ni čuo za njega. Nije teško pretpostaviti šta bi mu se desilo da je makar pokušao da se vrati u zemlju - vrlo verovatno bi to bilo u bukvalnom smislu te reči. Na kraju, zakon o proterivanju porodice Karađorđević, dakle ne samo Kralja nego cele porodice, formalno još važi i tek ovih dana je pokrenuta zvanična inicijativa da se konačno ukine. Ni za Huana Karlosa niko u Španiji nije čuo 40 godina i on je "'ladio jaja" po inostranstvu, pa je na kraju ispao efikasniji i bolji Kralj svojoj zemlji od ostalih evropskih kraljeva. > Još nešto: niti on, a još manje njegova deca liče na Srbe, i to mu je > najveća mana, odmah uz dosadašnju neaktivnost. Pa deca verovatno ni > "mama" ne znaju da kažu na srpskom :) To stoji, ali kad pogledam sve srpske političare, kako one na vlasti tako i one koji bi hteli na vlast, ne mogu da se otmem utisku da je to njegova velika prednost i da bi nam to svima samo koristilo. žovek je stekao svetski šlif, obrazovanje i poglede na svet, a uz to sigurno ide i odgovarajući moral koji je ovde skoro zaboravljen. :)) Ono što sam do sada čuo od njega i o njemu samo ide u prilog ovoj tvrdnji. Pozdrav, Marko
srbija.91 dejanr, -> #87, ivujanic
>> Pa deca verovatno ni "mama" ne znaju da kažu na srpskom :) Znaju, čuo ja najstarijeg sina Petra kako spika srpski, mnogo bolje od oca!
srbija.92 zonjic,
Vise necu da prenosim duge izvode iz stranih mreza ovdi, nego u yu.news ili world.news (ali ovaj potonji je samo read-only) Pa ko voli neka cita, a ko ne, neka rezignira ;)
srbija.93 maleksic, -> #87, ivujanic
>> Ma kakva vojna intervencija usred Evrope?! Pa svet odavno to u >> civilizovanim zemljama (a tu smo jos uvek i mi) ne radi, dovoljno >> je ekonomski izolovati zemlju, i gladni Srbi ce sami skinuti >> vlast. Kakva intervencija? Pa Nemci otvoreno kazu da je hitno priznavanje Slowenie i Hrwatske vazno zbog toga sto bi tada svaka vojna akcija Srba na tim (avnojevskim) teritorijama bila agresija na suverenu drzavu, i tada bi "medjunarodna zajednica" (citaj: NATO) bila duzna da posalje trupe da izbace komunisticke okupatore iz samostalne i medjunarodno priznate drzave Hrwatske! Cak i u slucaju da Slowenia i Croatia ne budu priznate kao drzave u trenutku kada otpocne srpsko-komunisticka vojna intervencija, opet se sve svodi na isto. Svi (SVI, SVI, SVI...! :) na Zapadu su se slozili da ce u slucaju *bilo kakve* upotrebe sile priznati suverenitet Slowenije i Hrwatske. To znaci da ce se srpske intervencionisticke trupe iznenada naci na teritoriji "suverene drzave". Posle toga cemo se provesti kao Iraq u zalivskom ratu. Ukoliko do toga dodje, nadam se bar da Amerikantzi nece ostaviti na vlasti srpskog Saddama kao sto su Iracane ostavili da i dalje grabe u srecnu buducnost sa starim rukovodstvom. A postoji i treca varijanta. A to je da NATO jednostavno odma' posalje vojsku da zgromi komunisticki rezim u Srbiji i time brzo resi Yugo-krizu koja im se svima vec smucila. Pa valjda je svima jasno da to "medjunarodno pravo" o teritorijalnom integritetu i suverenitetu itd. moze da se okaci macku o rep ako nema druge strane koja ce to pravo takodje "tumaciti" jakim vojnim sredstvima. A koliko vidim, Rusi se bas nisu pretrgli u podrsci srpskom boljsevickom rezimu. A to sto kazes da ce gladni Srbi skinuti vlast, xm, pa nisam bas siguran. Srbi gladuju vec 47 godina, pa ipak im je komunizam miliji no ikada :((((((( >> pa taj nesudeni kralj jedva natuca srpski, sad se setio svojih >> korena, a 40 godina je 'ladio jaja po Engleskoj a da niko nije ni >> cuo za njega. Njegovo Velicanstvo Aleksandar II Karadjordjevic nije ... po Engleskoj, nego je kao vojnik-oficir po celom svetu hrabro izlagao svoj zivot opasnosti braneci cast Njenog Velicanstva i celog slobodnog sveta! I nemoj vise da sam video ovako neprikladne izraze kada se govori o nasem buducem Kralju!!! >> a da niko nije ni cuo za njega. Pa ako si ocekivao da na TV Beograd i u "Politici" pratis izvestaje o aktivnosti Nj. V. krunskog princa Aleksandra, onda nije ni cudo sto si tako slabo informisan. >> Jos nesto: niti on, a jos manje njegova deca lice na Srbe, i to mu >> je najveca mana, odmah uz dosadasnju neaktivnost. Ne lice na Srbe????? A kako to Srbi treba da izgledaju, jesu li rogati, sta li su? >> Pa deca verovatno ni "mama" ne znaju da kazu na srpskom :) E, tu si me opsetio neceg sto sam juce cuo na B92. Valjda je to bio dnevnik B92, pa voditelj (speaker) ispricao pricu kako je u autobusu za Sremcicu video jednog coveka kako svog dvogodisnjeg sina pokusava da nauci da izgovori rec "Seselj"! Kako valjda dvogodisnjaci ne mogu tek tako da ovako shushkuljavu rec prelome preko jezika, u pomoc je pritekao ceo autobus! :))))) To je naravno jako dirnulo ujdijevsko-reformisticki nastrojenog novinara radija B92 koji je u zavrsnom komentaru izrazio zabrinutost za psihicko zdravlje deteta kome ce prva naucena rec posle klasicnog "mama" i "tata" biti "Seselj"! :))))
srbija.94 ivujanic, -> #93, maleksic
>> Kakva intervencija? Pa Nemci otvoreno kazu da je hitno priznavanje >> Slowenie i Hrwatske vazno zbog toga sto bi tada svaka vojna akcija >> Srba na tim (avnojevskim) teritorijama bila agresija na suverenu >> drzavu, i tada bi "medjunarodna zajednica" (citaj: NATO) bila duzna Nije to baš tako jednostavno. Srpski vojnici ipak nisu Irački, i tu Peščana Oluja nije baš pretplaćena na uspeh. Osim toga, rat traje već nekoliko nedelja, i nemoj misliti da strane obaveštajne službe veruju u priče o golorukim seljacima koji brane svoja ognjišta i o nevinim Gardistima koje vojska koka na spavanju. Znaju oni da je to pravi rat, samo ne znaju šta da urade. A sama Hrvatska je definitivno sjeb..a od strane Tuđmana i Đodana. U ovih poslednjih nekoliko dana prave grešku za greškom i u ovom trenutku samo Švabe još podržavaju Tuđmanov režim. A naš glupi vožd umesto da krene u ofanzivu tako što će žestoko da rekonstruiše vladu i time obezbedi sebi mesto u Srpskoj istoriji, on se odjednom predomišlja jer misli da može samo sa komunistima da uspe sada kad se kolo sreće okrenulo. Posle će svu opoziciju da proglasi izdajnicima... >> se sve svodi na isto. Svi (SVI, SVI, SVI...! :) na Zapadu su se >> slozili da ce u slucaju *bilo kakve* upotrebe sile priznati >> suverenitet Slowenije i Hrwatske. To znaci da ce se srpske Raspisah se pa na ovo odgovorih gore. >> Pa ako si ocekivao da na TV Beograd i u "Politici" pratis izvestaje >> o aktivnosti Nj. V. krunskog princa Aleksandra, onda nije ni cudo >> sto si tako slabo informisan. Ako je čovek prošle godine počeo da uči maternji jezik, niko me ne može ubediti da je zaslužio Srpski presto. Ako mu je loza kraljevska, ne znači da ne može da "usere motku". Bar su Srbi menjali svoje dinastije... Pozdrav, Ivica
srbija.95 bojt, -> #94, ivujanic
>> Nije to baš tako jednostavno. Srpski vojnici ipak nisu >> Irački, i tu Peščana Oluja nije baš pretplaćena na uspeh. Bah, ta priča je besmislena. I iračani su pričali da irački vojnici nisu isto što i vojnici sa Granade ili Paname, pa su prošli kako su prošli. Recimo, dvadesetodnevno bombardovanje Beograda i ostalih gradova, položaja srpske "proleterske" TO itd, misliš da bi podiglo moral srpskim vojnicima da zubima hvataju bombe i rakete? Za koga? Za Miloševića i ženu mu Miru?
srbija.96 zonjic,
Citam juce u Policiji intervju sa Dobricom Cosicem. Moram da priznam da je text izuzetno provincijski-patetican! Cosic odgovara na pitanja kao neki rezignirani Apostol, a novinar(i) mu cak i kazu: '...Vi imate pravo na rezigniranost...'. Pa zasto prave jos jednog SPSveca?! Ovo me podsetilo na clanak u nedeljnoj Borbi (ne znam koji): Tudjman je antikomunista sa boljsevickim licem, a Mislosevic je boljsevik sa antikomunistickim licem! Akademik Raskovic juce na radiju: Milosevic pokusava (ja bih rekao pravi se) da socijalistickim metodima ugasi socijalizam.....
srbija.97 maleksic, -> #94, ivujanic
>> Nije to bas tako jednostavno. Srpski vojnici ipak nisu Iracki, i >> tu Pescana Oluja nije bas pretplacena na uspeh. :)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) Pa dobro, jesi li ti bio u vojci (JNA) ????????? Odgovorno tvrdim da je JNA vec dugo godina na ivici samoraspadanja. U slucaju bilo kakvog pravog rata doci ce do masovnog dezertiranja i totalnog rasula. Ono sto je bilo u Sloveniji samo je bledi odraz haosa koji vlada u JNA. Ja sam u vojsci bio godinu dana i sve to vreme sam skupljao pikavce po "pisti", "kosio" travu golim rukama, sadio krompir, cistio sneg, cepao drva, tovario ugalj, kopao kanale u zivom kamenu... Mislis da ce prisilno mobilisana srpska omladina, sa petokrakom na glavi, biti u stanju da se suprotstavi profesionalnoj americkoj vojsci?? Pa evo malo da neke stvari pomenemo: Patriotski ratnicki moral? -------------------------- Da li bi srpska omladina bila voljna da se bori za Milosevicev krvavi komunisticki rezim? Taj isti "covek" koji sada poziva narod da se spremi za ratovanje, devetog marta je hladnokrvno naredio da se ubija goloruka omladina po ulicama Beograda. Ili mozda mislis da bi starci sa Usca bili ta snaga koja bi se uspesno suprotstavila agresoru? Mobilisana deca i omladina protiv profesionalne vojske? ------------------------------------------------------- Da li bi neko posle pocetnickog kursa za rad sa racunarima mogao da se nadmece sa ZZ-m i dejanr-om u vestini programiranja? To ne bi bilo nadmetanje nego pravi "pokolj"! Isto ti je i sa vojnom vestinom, samo sto "pokolj" ide bez navodnika. M48 protiv laserskih bombi? --------------------------- Ovo bolje da ne razglabam, mislim da je sve jasno. :(((( Srbi u ratu sa Amerikancima, Englezima, Francuzima?? ---------------------------------------------------- Srpska omladina Amerikance, Engleze i Francuze smatra saveznicima i prijateljima. Nikakva pomisao na ratovanje protiv njih ne pada im na pamet! >> Osim toga, rat traje vec nekoliko nedelja, i nemoj misliti da >> strane obavestajne sluzbe veruju u price o golorukim seljacima >> koji brane svoja ognjista i o nevinim Gardistima koje vojska koka >> na spavanju. Znaju oni da je to pravi rat, samo ne znaju sta da >> urade. Znaju zapadni obavestajci dobro sta se dogadja. Ali na Zapadu politiku vode politicari, a ne obavestajci. Glavni uticaj na krupne politicke odluke na Zapadu ima JAVNO MNENJE, a ne neki tajni izvestaji, ma kako oni bili objektivni i istiniti. Zapadna javnost odavno vec poziva na krstaski rat protiv komunisticke Srbije... a znas kako je, politicar koji deluje protiv volje naroda nece dugo opstati! Na Zapadu postoji stvar koja se zove "izbori". Takodjer, znaju oni na Zapadu i to da gardisti nisu nevinasca, i da Srbi brane goli zivot, sve to oni doooooobro znaju. Ali zapadna politika nije sredstvo za ispravljanje krivih drina, niti humanitarna organizacija za zastitu ugrozenih ljudskih prava. Politika se vodi tako da se ostvare odgovarajuci politicki ciljevi, a sirenje srpskog komunizma sigurno nije politicki cilj kome tezi zapadna demokratija.
srbija.98 mkiric, -> #97, maleksic
> Ja sam u vojsci bio godinu dana i sve to vreme sam skupljao pikavce po > "pisti", "kosio" travu golim rukama, sadio krompir, cistio sneg, cepao > drva, tovario ugalj, kopao kanale u zivom kamenu... Potpuno tačno, na žalost! Slična iskustva i ja imam (1986), samo što sam ja imao sreću da samo prevozim kamen, drva i one koji kopaju. A što se obuke tiče, na lokalnim takmičenjima u streljaštvu smo nas tri obična vojnika redovno tukli tim oficira sa po dvadeset-trideset krugova razlike. Naravno, mi smo dobijali raštimovane prangije i nismo imali nikavu mogućnost treninga sem čišćenja pikavaca po krugu neposredno pre gađanja - da je bilo drugačije i rezultat bi bio bolji :) Možeš onda da zamisliš kako su dobru obuku dobili oni koji nisu znali da rukuju oružjem kad su došli u vojsku, i koliko su sada spremni za to!
srbija.99 mkiric, -> #97, maleksic
> Srpska omladina Amerikance, Engleze i Francuze smatra saveznicima > i prijateljima. Bojim se da je ovo velika zabluda, bar što se tiče Amerikanaca i Engleza; što se tiče Francuza, zabluda nije tako velika ali je ipak zabluda. Prvo i najvažnije što treba shvatiti je da velike sile nemaju prijatelje već samo interese. Drugo, treba se setiti da je od poznatih savezničkih bombardovanja srpskih gradova na Uskrs 1944. godine (pravoslavni, naravno) izginulo više Srba nego od svih nemačkih bombardovanja zajedno. Naročito treba imati u vidu da tim bombardovanjima nisu nanete skoro nikakve štete nemačkim vojnim ili drugim objektima, i da ni do dan-danas nije razjašnjeno zašto je to uopšte učinjeno. Amerikanci i Englezi su tada bili naši saveznici. Ne mogu da se otmem utisku da je vojna "intervencija" u Sloveniji započela upravo na Bejkerov mig (bio u poseti Jugoslaviji i razgovarao sa Antom u četiri oka par dana pre toga). > Mislis da ce prisilno mobilisana srpska omladina, sa petokrakom na > glavi, biti u stanju da se suprotstavi profesionalnoj americkoj vojsci?? To svakako ne, ali ukoliko dođe do takve intervencije, obaranje režima u Srbiji će biti samo izgovor za ostvarivanje tuđih interesa - najsvežiji primer je Irak. Ni ja a ni mnogi ljudi koje znam ne bi to smatrali pomoću već agresijom na Srbiju, ne na režim. A treba se setiti kako je ista ta profesionalna vojska prošla recimo u Vijetnamu protiv neprofesionalne gerile i šta je sve tamo radila u ime zaštite demokratskog sistema. Daleko sam od toga da branim ovaj režim, naprotiv, ali još manje bih želeo da mi Yankies uređuju zemlju i odnose u njoj. Kakvo god đubre da imamo sada na vlasti, naše je i na nama samima je da ga počistimo.
srbija.100 mkiric, -> #95, bojt
> Bah, ta priča je besmislena. I iračani su pričali da irački vojnici nisu > isto što i vojnici sa Granade ili Paname, pa su prošli kako su prošli. > Recimo, dvadesetodnevno bombardovanje Beograda i ostalih gradova,..., > itd, misliš da bi podiglo moral srpskim vojnicima da zubima hvataju > bombe i rakete? To stoji, ali ne treba zaboraviti na dve "sitne" razlike: 1. Srbi se po fizičkom izgledu mnogo manje razlikuju od Amerikanaca nego Iračani (ili svojevremeno Vijetnamci). 2. U Americi i Kanadi živi mnogo veći broj Srba nego Iračana. Amerikancima nije bilo teško da bombarduju iračke gradove i osakaćuju iračku decu kad su znali da su njihova deca i žene bezbedni. Imajući u vidu gornje razlike, ne verujem da bi se ovog puta tako lagodno osećali jer ne bi mogli da budu toliko sigurni da su njihove žene i deca van opasnosti kad odu recimo u supermarket ili bioskop. > Za koga? Za Miloševića i ženu mu Miru? Ne zagovaram terorizam, ali kad bi nečije bombe, ne daj Bože, ubile ili osakatile moju decu, bez obzira zašto i zbog koga, mogu ti sa sigurnošću reći da se ne bih smirio dok višestruko ne namirim račun! Tu bi jedini problem bio kako da uđem u određenu zemlju, što i nije neki nepremostiv problem. Tebi ovo može izgledati neshvatljivo, ali mislim da me dobro razumeju svi koji imaju decu, a mislim da ni Ameri nisu toliko glupi da sve to ne uzimaju u obzir. Šta misliš kako bi reagovalo njihovo javno mnenje kad bi usred Amerike počele da pucaju bombe po autobusima, supermarketima, bibliotekama, itd. što bi im se neminovno desilo kad bi napali na takav način bilo koju evropsku zemlju? Sa druge strane, mislim da ne bi imali bog zna kakve šanse na uspeh kad bi se lišili takve tehnološke prednosti, već bi se ponovo zaglibili u prljavi gerilski rat, ovog puta u sred Evrope. U takvom načinu ratovanja su se oni već dokazali kao provereni paceri, dok mi imamo skoro 600-godišnje iskustvo.
srbija.101 dejanr, -> #100, mkiric
>> Amerikancima nije bilo teško da bombarduju iračke gradove i osakaćuju >> iračku decu kad su znali da su njihova deca i žene bezbedni. Imajući u >> vidu gornje razlike, ne verujem da bi se ovog puta tako lagodno osećali >> jer ne bi mogli da budu toliko sigurni da su njihove žene i deca van >> opasnosti kad odu recimo u supermarket ili bioskop. Marko, apsolutno SVAKO ko planira da ratuje sa Amerikom (ili se boji da će ga Amerika napasti) izbaci ovaj argument. I Iračani, i Palestinci, i razni Južnoamerikanci, i BaderMajnhof, SVI! Međutim, u USA nikada nije bilo ozbiljnijeg terorizma niti rata na njihovoj teritoriji, oni očigledno imaju dobre mehanizme da se od toga zaštite. A ako misliš da bi ti "naši Amerikanci" na takav način delovali, mislim da se grdno varaš. To su sada Amerikanci srpskog porekla i to je sve - možda bi samo napisali neku peticiju ili neke subote (da se ne dangubi od radnog vremena) demonstrirali pred Belom kućom.
srbija.102 ivujanic, -> #101, dejanr
>> i razni Južnoamerikanci, i BaderMajnhof, SVI! Međutim, u USA nikada nije >> bilo ozbiljnijeg terorizma niti rata na njihovoj teritoriji, oni >> očigledno imaju dobre mehanizme da se od toga zaštite. To sasvim sigurno stoji, mada mi nije jasno kako im to uspeva. Ipak mislim da nije ni potrebno, dovoljno je da Tihi i Prle počnu da ih sole gde god su u YU, da počnemo da ih cepamo po Evropi, koja je daleko od imune na terorizam, i brzo bi promenili pesmu. Najbitnija stvar je da se Evropske zemlje (sa izuzetkom 4. Reich-a) ne bi nikako složile sa takvom intervencijom u Evropi. Jedina šansa im je da brzo poraze JNA (ništa lakše) i da brzo smene vlast, ali "prirodnim putem" i "nestanu". To bi zavaralo mnoge. Nikakva dugotrajna okupacija nema šansi da uspe. Ivica
srbija.103 ivujanic, -> #95, bojt
>> Bah, ta priča je besmislena. I iračani su pričali da irački >> vojnici nisu isto što i vojnici sa Granade ili Paname, pa su Apsoltuno je jasno da bi u prvom naletu Srbija bila žestoko poražena, i to ne samo zato što se radi o snažnom protivniku, već prvenstveno zato što se oslanja na JNA koja u svojoj istoriji već drugi put pokazuje da nije ni zašta drugo osim da se preda. Ono što sam ja mislio je kokanje Amera nakon što se počnu šetati Knez Mihajlovom kao oslobodioci, i to je nešto što Amer ne voli, jer kako će sutra da podigne platu za koju ratuje ako ga ja danas ubijem? A ovo ipak nije Afrika da mogu da izvedu 100 naših za jednog njihovog i streljaju javno (kao što je bilo nekad). Ne kažem ni da bi Ameri izgubili, sve zavisi od toga kako bi se postavili tokom njihove agresije: ako bi im cilj bio da Slobu i Miru obese za noge na Trgu Republike, ja se javljam u dobrovoljce. Možda čak i malo ekonomske zavisnosti nije na odmet ;). Ivica